Was Adam aware that he was Michael?

[Neophyte]

Hello, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. I remember when I first joined the Church, one thing I was fascinated by, but wasn't talked about, was the Adam-God Doctrine (or, I think it was taught by Brigham Young as doctrine, forgive me if I'm wrong). It resonated and made a certain amount of sense to me. If Heavenly Father and Mother conceived our spirit forms, and then Heavenly Father conceived Christ in the flesh with Mary, then being the physical father of all of our bodies seems to not be a huge leap.

My question is whether Adam knew of his identity at the time, or, like the rest of us, had no memory of his pre-existence once he took on a mortal tabernacle. I know it was necessary for man to fall, in order to progress and find joy. Were he and Eve tempted/tricked into taking part of the knowledge of good and evil by Satan?

My other question is, my understanding had been Jehovah was Christ pre-incarnate. Am I correct in believing then Elohim is the Grandfather, Adam/Michael is Heavenly Father, and Jehovah is the Savior?

Thank you.

[NewEliza]

Answering as someone who believes in the Adam God doctrine.

I have thought about this a lot. Adam, although he wasn’t born but just came to earth, still ate fruit that turned him mortal. being mortal, I think he likely had forgotten his identity but it was probably quickly reminded of it by the visiting of angels to him and Eve.

As far as Eve and Adam being tricked by satan, no I don’t believe they were tricked by satan. They did eat fruit according to Brigham young but it sounds like that was always the plan.

The name jehovah is simply a title, so it can be referring to any number of gods depending on what you are talking about.

The original endowment was set up with these chatecters:

Elohim: (Adam’s grandfather)
Jehovah: (Adam’s father)
Michael: (Heavenly Father who is Adam)
Jesus.

Whoever is the Adam character in that particular world is the “Michael”. Jesus will be the next Michael on his next planet.

[Neophyte]

Thank you so much, that was a very concise explanation. It had always been a doctrine that I had somehow felt very strongly to be true. Thank you for putting it in sort of a linear logic.

[Luke]

Brigham said that Adam forgot everything when he came down and became as a little child

[NewEliza]

Thank you so much, that was a very concise explanation. It had always been a doctrine that I had somehow felt very strongly to be true. Thank you for putting it in sort of a linear logic.

A quick good read on the topic by someone who I believe understood the doctrine well is “Michael Adam” by Ogden kraut.

[Neophyte]

Thank you so much, that was a very concise explanation. It had always been a doctrine that I had somehow felt very strongly to be true. Thank you for putting it in sort of a linear logic.

A quick good read on the topic by someone who I believe understood the doctrine well is “Michael Adam” by Ogden kraut.

Ah! Great, thank you. Googling now.

[Zion Altman]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

[NewEliza]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

Uh yeah we know what Adam means.

Every time Christ says he is the son of man he is saying he is the son of Adam.

[ransomme]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

Uh yeah we know what Adam means.

Every time Christ says he is the son of man he is saying he is the son of Adam.

that is in no way correct whatsoever. That was not their ancient world view, ben'adam almost always means man/men/mankind and there are other terms translated to mean son of man other than ben'adam.

adam - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm
Daniel 7 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm
enash - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/606.htm

In Aramaic, they use bar-anosh and bar-nasha giving further insight that they did not mean or understand son of man to mean son of Adam.

Try studying with a concordance, it helps.

[NewEliza]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

Uh yeah we know what Adam means.

Every time Christ says he is the son of man he is saying he is the son of Adam.

that is in no way correct whatsoever. That was not their ancient world view, ben'adam almost always means man/men/mankind and there are other terms translated to mean son of man other than ben'adam.

adam - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm
Daniel 7 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm
enash - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/606.htm

In Aramaic, they use bar-anosh and bar-nasha giving further insight that they did not mean or understand son of man to mean son of Adam.

Try studying with a concordance, it helps.

Sure. It also has a convenient double meaning.

God being Adam was everyone’s ancient world view. It’s all over every ancient religion. Most notably Egyptian.

[ransomme]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

Uh yeah we know what Adam means.

Every time Christ says he is the son of man he is saying he is the son of Adam.

that is in no way correct whatsoever. That was not their ancient world view, ben'adam almost always means man/men/mankind and there are other terms translated to mean son of man other than ben'adam.

adam - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm
Daniel 7 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm
enash - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/606.htm

In Aramaic, they use bar-anosh and bar-nasha giving further insight that they did not mean or understand son of man to mean son of Adam.

Try studying with a concordance, it helps.

Sure. It also has a convenient double meaning.

God being Adam was everyone’s ancient world view. It’s all over every ancient religion. Most notably Egyptian.

Odd that Michael is Christ's archangel ...
D&C 29:26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

Strange that Christ the Son created Adam His Father? No, it was Adam our father and Christ gave Adam laws.
D&C 29:34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

[ransomme]

It's also clearly not in the ancient worldview or you'd have at least one evangelical or other sect promoting it as well. Can you name any other Christians who agree with AGT?

[Luke]

It's also clearly not in the ancient worldview or you'd have at least one evangelical or other sect promoting it as well. Can you name any other Christians who agree with AGT?

It was in the ancient worldview, as I’ve documented here numerous times.

And whether some evangelicals preach it or not doesn’t make one lick of difference.

[Luke]

Odd that Michael is Christ's archangel

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

[abijah`]

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Definitely false. Both the hebrew word "malakh" and the greek term "aggelos" mean Messenger. It does not refer to any taxonomy or species of beings, but rather, it is a job description. And nowhere in all of scripture is this term applied to the Father. Because He is not a messenger, but rather He is the Sender of the message.

Both Jesus and the Father are higher than the angels:

• Hebrews 1
  After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Michael is also called a "prince", specifically Israel's representative prince:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

God the Father is not a prince, and His jurisdiction is not only charge over Israel, but over everything..

Adam-God Theory is an absolutely untenable framework, and wholly incompatible with the scriptures.

[Luke]

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Definitely false. Both the hebrew word "malakh" and the greek term "aggelos" mean Messenger. It does not refer to any taxonomy or species of beings, but rather, it is a job description. And nowhere in all of scripture is this term applied to the Father. Because He is not a messenger, but rather He is the Sender of the message.

Both Jesus and the Father are higher than the angels:

• Hebrews 1
  After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Michael is also called a "prince", specifically Israel's representative prince:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

God the Father is not a prince, and His jurisdiction is not only charge over Israel, but over everything..

Adam-God Theory is an absolutely untenable framework, and wholly incompatible with the scriptures.

Semantics

[Alexander]

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Definitely false. Both the hebrew word "malakh" and the greek term "aggelos" mean Messenger. It does not refer to any taxonomy or species of beings, but rather, it is a job description. And nowhere in all of scripture is this term applied to the Father. Because He is not a messenger, but rather He is the Sender of the message.

Both Jesus and the Father are higher than the angels:

• Hebrews 1
  After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Michael is also called a "prince", specifically Israel's representative prince:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

God the Father is not a prince, and His jurisdiction is not only charge over Israel, but over everything..

Adam-God Theory is an absolutely untenable framework, and wholly incompatible with the scriptures.

“Prince” שַׂר: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince, governor, commander

This same word is used to describe Christ in Isaiah 9.

In Greek, ἀρχηγός or archégos is used for the word prince, specifically denoting an originator, author, founder, prince, leader, principal pioneer.

Arxēgós(from arxḗ, "the first" and ágō, "to lead") – properly, the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow.

archón (used also for prince) denotes a ruler, governor, leader, leading man; the official member of the assembly.



Prince could be used for the Father, as he is the principal Elohim in the assembly of the Elohim; he is the chief ruler.

The Father could also be termed an angel, as he is sent forth from his own Father.

[Alexander]

Odd that Michael is Christ's archangel

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Do you have a quote source?

[Luke]

Odd that Michael is Christ's archangel

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Do you have a quote source?

D&C 129
1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

[Alexander]

so you just made man a god?


adam means man

and Michael ("Who is like God?", "Like God.")

so your ego is too high isn't it? and pad is waiting for you

when you realize that even names have their meanings and people changed them because the first bible did not have all the letters but only a part

and the rest came with translations and with a want to explain the meaning and the whole book



It's like saying those waters from the USA of Utah think a lot about myself

and the true meaning is that the people of the usa who are in utah think a lot about themselves

Uh yeah we know what Adam means.

Every time Christ says he is the son of man he is saying he is the son of Adam.

that is in no way correct whatsoever. That was not their ancient world view, ben'adam almost always means man/men/mankind and there are other terms translated to mean son of man other than ben'adam.

adam - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm
Daniel 7 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm
enash - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/606.htm

In Aramaic, they use bar-anosh and bar-nasha giving further insight that they did not mean or understand son of man to mean son of Adam.

Try studying with a concordance, it helps.

We know that "Son of Man" is the same as "Son of Adam" because "Son of Man" is the same as "Son Ahman".

One like the Son of Man, or Son Ahman approaches the Ancient of Days/Man of Holiness at Adam ondi Ahman.

"Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael; he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. … The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion."

“Ahman” meant “the first man or first God” and “Ahman Christ” meant “the first mans son.”

Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the “Son Ah Man".

[abijah`]

Isaiah appears to be imploring Adam to awaken unto his premortal identity as "Michael", trying to get him to remember, and reminding him of deeds he had done prior to becoming Adam -

Revelation 12 shows a battle between the dragon (& co.) versus Michael (& co.).

Overcoming the dragon = New World Creation

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD [Michael]; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago [referring to the Creation]. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Moreover Isaiah 3x telling the arm of JHWH to "awake" likewise connects to Adam, whom after being put into "a deep sleep", the Lord commanded "Adam - awake, and arise."

The idea of cutting up the dragon into pieces, which get used to construct the world, is found in the story of Marduk vs Tiamat, the chaos of the pre-creation state being successfully ordered in the making of a new world.

• Psalm 74
  You divided the sea by your might [referring to Day 2 of Creation]; you broke the heads of the sea dragons on the waters.

• Psalm 89
  You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm [Michael].
  The heavens are yours; the earth also is yours; the world and all that is in it, you have founded them.

This idea of overcoming the dragon equaling creation of the world is not exclusive to Hebrew theology. Its universal:

In nearly every ancient conception of the universal Creation Myth, we see some iteration of a Serpent / Dragon who is slain/overcome, and through that victory, the dragon`slayer god is then able to order the world into a new, fresh creation.

Defeating the Dragon = "Order out of Chaos". Which is the pattern whereby God created the cosmos.

The Dragon (upon being defeated) = the chaotic, "matter disorganised" from which the new world can be fashioned and made.

Such has been the case with nearly all Creation Myths, w/ some notable examples being:

The Babylonions
Upstart, youthful god Marduk creates and (becomes supreme lord of) the world out of the remains of Tiamat's (the primordial dragon of the sea) corpse, Chaos having been subdued, and used to fashion a new cosmos.

The Canaanites
Upstart, youthful god Baal (proper name "Hadad") defeats the sea-dragon deity "Yam" (whom some have identified/associated with Yahova) on behalf of his father El (and surely will I do it, wherefore give me thine honour..."), through which he is able to create a new order and rule as highest god upon Mt Zaphon.

[Alexander]

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

Definitely false. Both the hebrew word "malakh" and the greek term "aggelos" mean Messenger. It does not refer to any taxonomy or species of beings, but rather, it is a job description. And nowhere in all of scripture is this term applied to the Father. Because He is not a messenger, but rather He is the Sender of the message.

Both Jesus and the Father are higher than the angels:

• Hebrews 1
  After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Michael is also called a "prince", specifically Israel's representative prince:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

God the Father is not a prince, and His jurisdiction is not only charge over Israel, but over everything..

Adam-God Theory is an absolutely untenable framework, and wholly incompatible with the scriptures.

“Prince” שַׂר: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince, governor, commander

This same word is used to describe Christ in Isaiah 9.

In Greek, ἀρχηγός or archégos is used for the word prince, specifically denoting an originator, author, founder, prince, leader, principal pioneer.

Arxēgós(from arxḗ, "the first" and ágō, "to lead") – properly, the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow.

archón (used also for prince) denotes a ruler, governor, leader, leading man; the official member of the assembly.



Prince could be used for the Father, as he is the principal Elohim in the assembly of the Elohim; he is the chief ruler.

The Father could also be termed an angel, as he is sent forth from his own Father.

Moreover, an angel (aggelos/malakh) is a messenger, envoy, delegate, or one who is sent.

The Only Begotten Son is sent from the Father, as he is the Word, or "Messenger of Salvation" as it means.

D&C 93
8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation—

Thus the Son is in fact an angel himself.


And yet Michael is Archangel?
(ἀρχάγγελος, archaggelos: a chief angel, a ruler of angels, a superior angel, angel of the highest rank (from árxōn, "of the first order, chief" and ággelos, "angel").


"Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;"

PRINCE, noun prins.
In a general sense, a sovereign; the chief and independent ruler of a nation or state. Thus when we speak of the princes of Europe, we include emperors and kings. Hence, a chief in general; as a prince of the celestial host.


"He [Adam] is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family."
-Joseph Smith

[ransomme]

It's also clearly not in the ancient worldview or you'd have at least one evangelical or other sect promoting it as well. Can you name any other Christians who agree with AGT?

It was in the ancient worldview, as I’ve documented here numerous times.

And whether some evangelicals preach it or not doesn’t make one lick of difference.

But it does. With the many many biblical scholars out there and somehow not a one picks up on the AGT??? Only BY it seems.
Coincidence? I think not.

[ransomme]

Odd that Michael is Christ's archangel

Why is it odd? It means chief angel. According to Joseph, all heavenly beings are known as “angels”.

It means chief messenger. When is a Father an errand boy for a son?

[Luke]

It's also clearly not in the ancient worldview or you'd have at least one evangelical or other sect promoting it as well. Can you name any other Christians who agree with AGT?

It was in the ancient worldview, as I’ve documented here numerous times.

And whether some evangelicals preach it or not doesn’t make one lick of difference.

But it does. With the many many biblical scholars out there and somehow not a one picks up on the AGT??? Only BY it seems.
Coincidence? I think not.

LOL!

In other words, you prefer to place your trust in the arm of flesh.

I am absolutely DUMBFOUNDED, GOBSMACKED, BEWILDERED and IN UTTER AWE at what I have just read.

Sorry mate, but what you just wrote is utterly ridiculous, bordering on mad.