LDS Freedom Forum

Peeps wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 12:05 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 7:16 am Family will be here soon and I am going to brave raising the question of polygamy over dinner.

It's a subject I don't yet understand and am striving to get historical perspective on. So please bear with. My gut reaction is revulsion - not gonna lie. But I'm striving to get beyond that and understand the deeper thinking behind the belief in plural marriage.

But for now a pragmatic question -

Given that the law prohibits polygamy and the LDS church excommunicates polygamists, what would you do if you felt prompted that plural marriage was the only way to the celestial kingdom?

Take the risk? Resign yourself to never entering the highest realm?

And supposing you took the plunge and married a second wife - how would you be sealed to her since you can't do it in the temple?

Naive questions maybe - but like I say, it's all new to me.

Go with your gut reaction. Do not sear your conscience by over thinking it, rationalizing it, it is just wrong.

Believe what Jesus Christ said about marriage in heaven in the Bible. Matthew 22 says:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

And if that isn't enough, you should know what Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon says about plural marriage.

Jacob 2:23
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that i might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save i shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives,
and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of
God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.


So section 132 of the D & C should be disregarded. Besides, it has Isaac as being a polygamist in the very first verse. He was not, he only had one wife, Rebecca. So if something inside is telling you to practice polygamy, that feeling is not from the Lord nor the Holy Spirit.

The provenance of D&C 132 is more than a little questionable in my view.
The wordprint analysis carried out some years ago strongly suggests it wasn't authored by Joseph.

I would read Jacob again to remind me that it is against God's law. only immoral people ever breach the subject. We have been given a law to live monogamy, not lust after women or men and to not covet our neighbors spouse.


When will people in this church realize that God sent the armies of the federal government to stop this practice. It WASN'T a trial. It was a punishment. The early saints left Missouri and Illinois because they were attacked. When they did not stop this practice in the wilderness of Utah, then he sent troops all the way from the east. They finally quit their wickedness when the Lord showed the prophet that they would lose everything including their land and their temples.

I just read another post about following only cannonized scripture or decrees. It's right in the D&C book that polygamy is NOT to be lived. What a wierd church that I belong to. Why do we want to break God's laws when it is clearly stated in our scripture? Again, it will bring the loss of temples and leaders. Read what the prophet said.

So let me address a few stupid reasons for polygamy.

God will restore all the laws in the end of the world. Polygamy was NOT ever a law of God. Jacob condemned it, Abrahamn stopped living it when he took covenants with the Lord, David stopp living it for the same reason. . .no one in the BofM lived it. If it will be restored then reason tells us that the black will have the priesthood taken from them because we are restoring alll things. For that matter the aaronic priesthood will be given to only the levites and all else will be stricken by God if they try to practice it like they were in the old testament. No bishop unless a levite.

we will need to start killing animals for sacrafice, too?

another comment
a male God in heaven will need many women because he will people many worlds. What crap. Women will be perfect. Does anyone know what it takes to parent spirits? Probably not 9 months. this is a very stupid argument.

God is a God of order. . .read the whole scriptures, especially the decree against polygamy, the words of the prophet at that time and the condemnation found in Jacob and the old testamant. It was a cultural thing not ever a salvation commandment. only 2% of the church lived it but that sin brought the armies from the federal government. God does not protect people when they sin.

the resurrection is too late. everything has a time period. the preexistence ended and satan and his folowers cannot go back. this telestial world will end soon and move into a terrestial world. The people who cannot live a terrestial law will not have another chance. Over, done. Terrestial people in the first resurection and telestial in the second resurection with the sinners.
Then the time for entering the celestial kingdom will be stated. Maybe a thousand years. done. no changing your mind.

but spouse ort companion can be chosen before the resurrection ends or during the millenium. basically before the judgment

Way to much energy is spent on the “philosophies of man”s main topic - polygamy. Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to your current wife? Why not? Until that takes place it doesn’t matter how many additional wives you line up.

The Spirit will never bless our current marriages if we are always looking to add another wife to the mix. The days of this probation will just be wasted away.

Plus, how can we add another wife and keep the words of our Savior?

Matthew 5
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Polygamy is about sex - multiple partners - lust.

To get to the Celestial kingdom we need to follow Jesus Christ, following one or many old polygamists will never get us there.

even when the celestial law is taught in the temple, there is still only one woman. . .one eve. . .one woman and one man. . . do people not look with their eyes? how can we so distort what is plainly there?

BY didn't even consumate most of his marriages. He believed he could save them by having them sealed to him whether he had sex or not. Also they could each go to the local land office and get 160 acres of free land in a day when women could not hold property. Utah let women vote and they would have lost that right too if they continued in this sin of polygamy.

btw since women couldn't hold property then guess who really could make claim on all that land. . . you're right. . .BY

oh yeah true reminded me of another claim

women will outnumber men. . .where did this crap come from? Isaiah says every woman will have one man. . .I suppose
you think God cannot see future and would screw up that much?

polygamy will still not be sanctioned by God when the wars take so many men. . . it looks to me like that scripture might be getting fulfilled that says women will take hold of the same man since many men are dying of vax heart problems. of course, women of Zion will have their hair burned off by nuclear war and they will stink

What a useless topic.

Pretty funny to see members arguing over what is true doctrine when we supposedly have a prophet that could get the official line from God and straighten us out, but apparently he is too busy.

23 years ago I called church headquarters and asked if polygamy is necessary for the highest degree of exaltation, and the answer was the church had no opinion on the matter and I was to pray and find out for myself.

So take 100 members praying about it and you will get 100 answers. Sort of like having the players in a football game decide what the rules are throughout the game.

I have a funny feeling that more dudes would be 'inspired' to do polygamy than ladies - gee, wonder why?

We tend to get the inspiration we want.

This is one of the mysteries of the Kingdom and can only be understood by the full on power of the Holy Ghost, and likely only will be manifest to those in need of understanding it. Best to let it go until the Lord via. the HG commands you, which is very possible but highly unlikely to happen at this time.

BTW the entire celestial concept is to bring a partnership to a level of perfection. To the point that the "intelligences" will "flow unto them (the union) without compulsory means for ever more." For this to matter you must first be proven worthy, then commanded, then sealed up by HSofP. If more than one partner is required, it is because more is needed to make the partnership perfect, in the eyes of the universe, the gods, the intelligences, etc....

Argue one way or the other all you want as JS said 5 minutes with the veil drawn back and you will learn more than you ever imagined about the realities of the plan of progression (not salvation but progression). enough said, tired of the discussion with so many naysayers that cannot receive the necessary revelations to comprehend it.

NeveR wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 7:16 am ...stuff -

Given that the law prohibits polygamy and the LDS church excommunicates polygamists, what would you do if you felt prompted that plural marriage was the only way to the celestial kingdom?

Take the risk? Resign yourself to never entering the highest realm?

And supposing you took the plunge and married a second wife - how would you be sealed to her since you can't do it in the temple?

Naive questions maybe - but like I say, it's all new to me.

The big text question and the title questions are, to me, very different things.

A prompting and "feeling that the Lord was commanding me" are very different things to me.

To the title question I would pray for understanding and also pray for confirmation to my wife. It would take something along the lines of an angel appearing with a drawn sword without my wife being confirmed in it.

As for a prompting, until I had a more sure witness I would either dismiss the prompting or if it was strong pray for further understanding.

Ask the lord what actions you must take in order to enable you to fulfill his commands and then go forward and carry those out.

If you do that and repeat it you’ll be led to where you need to be and who you need to be with.

If you have a testimony of the Savior and sincerely strive to follow his teachings in life and become like him it will be well with you. Remember he looked upon those who drove nails into his flesh and forgave them. He looked upon those who mocked and beat and judged him and forgave them. While they were in the very act of doing so, and while he had power to stop them, he forgave them.

Does anyone really think that you will be worse off than those foul actors if you follow the Lord but don't engage in plural marriage? Sorry, you can quote a JS and BY story, but I'll suggest to you that you don't understand those accounts if you are trying to use them to justify your own action or the condemnation of others.

The truth is, regardless of vaccines or wives or homosexuals, the church policy is the church policy and I can follow the Lord. I learned of Him in this church. I was endowed with power by receiving covenants through his authorized servants. I have grown line upon line by hearkening to precept upon precept from his prophets and apostles. Like Peter, I can ask, where Lord would I go, thou has the words of eternal life (and this church has the authority in administering the ordinances).

Anyone suggesting they need to leave the church or secretly or openly practice plural marriage is a combination or deluded, prideful, and lustful. You don't need to practice such unless they are commanded of you through one of his authorized servants. And if that ever happened, and you refused, just rest upon your testimony of the Savior and hold to the truths you have. All will be more than well with you.

If frog had wings, could it fly?

I explored the idea, and a princess type person appeared on the scene to narrate his story.

Scene, but not seen. gbng

I’d check my feelings because feelings aren’t a reliable indication of truth.

"My gut reaction is revulsion - not gonna lie."

Go with your gut.

Sarah wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 10:10 am

OPMissionary wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 10:06 am

Sarah wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 9:20 am

OPMissionary wrote: ↑November 25th, 2021, 8:54 am

So it's satanic unless the prophet says to do it- then, it's a righteous and holy commandment. I think I'm starting to understand the rationale for getting the vaccine.

Yes, just like it is "Satanic" to have sex with a woman who you haven't married yet, but after you get the legal documents you can have sex with her all you want. It's all about following law. Now we all know that a document or legal marriage doesn't mean it will be a righteous relationship, but the legal part is just as important as the spirit of it.

With your logic someone could have sex with as many women as he wanted as long as the prophet gave the go ahead. You're basically saying the prophet's word is the law.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. If you believe the Prophet holds the keys of this power. The Lord told Joseph that whatever he sealed or unsealed was valid in heaven. A man can have sex with as many women as he wants anyway. It's up to him if he will obey any laws or not.

I'm sure you're one of those members, that would blindly follow their false prophet right off a cliff -
if he told you to do it.
And that's exactly whats happening - so many members - just blindly following and getting their "Godsend" -
this kill shot - this evil injection - just because Nelson says to. - RIDICULOUS !

now I know -
why the church is in the shape it's in - and corrupt and in apostasy -
because of members like you - that are the blind following the blind -
that idolize MEN - MEN who haven't been led by the Lord for over a hundred years.
and have corrupted His church, and brought it to where it is - in total apostasy -
just as the scriptures said it would.
And now The Times of the Gentiles (US) are ending - and the Lord will hurl to the ground *** Isa.28:2
The Drunkards of Ephraim (church leaders) and blind members - that follow them blindly.


Isaiah 28 is all about - The Drunkards of Ephraim

Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

----------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (mostly the leaders of the church)

Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

Isaiah 28 audio Avraham Gileadi
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/ ... aiah28.mp3

I find it absurd that some, (the "all is well in Zion" crowd ) can say that Isaiah 28 has nothing to do with the church,
while the church itself says that Isaiah 29 does.

quote
"First we must note here that Isaiah is speaking to "the drunkards of Ephraim”.
There is no question that the Latter-Day Saints refer to themselves as “Ephraim” and there is no question that the Church teaches that the very next chapter of Isaiah (chapter 29) refers to our day or the coming forth of the Church, and the Book of Mormon. Therefore, it would seem quite logical that Isaiah 28 would also refer to Ephraim of our day."

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

If you want a big wake up call please read and study the 28th chapter of Isaiah,
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

That's where the Lord has laid a trap for us.
Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

1 Woe to the garlands of glory
of the drunkards of Ephraim!
Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths
on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine.

Chapters 28-31, which form a didactic unit comprising Part VI of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure (Isaiah 28-31; 55-59),
each commence with a “woe” or covenant curse.
Ephraim’s chief sins of pride and drunkenness catch up with Israel’s birthright tribe in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment. Instead of acknowledging current inconvenient truths,
the people of Ephraim look back on past glories earned in more righteous times as if they still apply today. Ephraim’s self-deception, stemming from intoxication with “wine” at the highest levels, compounds the hard times that lie ahead (v 7; Isaiah 56:10-12).

"Isaiah's prophecy concerning Ephraim consists mostly of censure.
Ephraim lives in the past, acting as if former glories were current ones: “Woe to the garlands of glory of the drunkards of Ephraim!
Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine” (Isaiah 28:1).
The king of Assyria—a new Flood (Isaiah 8:7–8)—will invade Ephraim’s land:

*** 2.“My Lord has in store one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down, or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The proud garlands of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden underfoot”(Isaiah 28:2–3)."

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2).
A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant, who makes an end of him at the last. Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).(Bold & Italics mine)

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.


We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13). Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam). Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.

13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know. The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).

---------------
Isaiah 3
12 As for my people, babes subject them; women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you, abolishing your traditional ways.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

I don't have space for that