LDS Freedom Forum

I’ve been reflecting on some things lately. Is it just me or does it seem like we take things too literally when things are supposed to be taken symbolically?
Example: the sacrament. From my study I’ve concluded that the sacrament is symbolic, not literal. It is done in remembrance of our Savior. It cleanses us symbolically and not literally.

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and ​brake​ it, and ​blessed​ it, and gave to ​his​ disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is ​in remembrance of​ my body ​which I give a ransom for you.​
​​​24 ​For this is ​in remembrance of​ my blood of the new testament, which is shed for ​as​ many ​as shall believe on my name,​ for the remission of ​their​ sins.
​​​25 ​​And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall observe to do the things which ye have seen me do, and bear record of me even unto the end.” Matthew 26:22-25 JST

We are cleansed as we repent daily and utilize the atonement of Christ. We do not need the sacrament for our salvation.

Mamabear wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 2:55 pm I’ve been reflecting on some things lately. Is it just me or does it seem like we take things too literally when things are supposed to be taken symbolically?
Example: the sacrament. From my study I’ve concluded that the sacrament is symbolic, not literal. It is done in remembrance of our Savior. It cleanses us symbolically and not literally.

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and ​brake​ it, and ​blessed​ it, and gave to ​his​ disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is ​in remembrance of​ my body ​which I give a ransom for you.​
​​​24 ​For this is ​in remembrance of​ my blood of the new testament, which is shed for ​as​ many ​as shall believe on my name,​ for the remission of ​their​ sins.
​​​25 ​​And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall observe to do the things which ye have seen me do, and bear record of me even unto the end.” Matthew 26:22-25 JST

We are cleansed as we repent daily and utilize the atonement of Christ. We do not need the sacrament for our salvation.

I see what you’re saying and mostly agree with how you are shifting your focus.

Partaking of the body and blood of Jesus are a commemorative act. It was one of the three things Jesus told the Nephites to do to be built upon his rock.

Jesus taught that partaking of the bread was a testimony to the Father that we will always remember him.

Drinking of the cup was a witness to the Father that we are willing to do what he has commanded us.

We do not do this specifically to be forgiven or to “renew” covenants (they don’t wear out and don’t need renewing) but as a testimony and witness to the Father that we will always remember Jesus and keep his commandments.

It isn’t repentance, it isn’t renewal of something else, it is it’s own thing.

I sinned and asked God to forgive me while taking the sacrament. I felt dirty and filthy inside in a way I hadn't before. It was bad, real bad. When I partook of the actual sacrament in the lds church, I felt the cleansing effects of it actually. Suddenly the feeling of dirtyness and uncleanness was washed away from me. It was all taken away. The power of the atonement is within the sacrament. Idk how or why but it is. I try to NEVER ever miss it now knowing it's an opportunity to be clean and gain strength through it.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:
77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:
79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

The emblems of the Sacrament are blessed and sanctified. One must partake of these "blessed and sanctified, (set apart for a holy purpose,) emblems in order to become sanctified themselves. This is a prerequisite in order to walk as a Disciple of Christ, yes, in remembrance of His sacrifice, but, too, to become "figuratively; symbolically" members of HIS flesh and blood family. (That which is symbolic transfiguring into that which is literal.) It can be thought of as an act of "adoption."

Mamabear wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 2:55 pm I’ve been reflecting on some things lately. Is it just me or does it seem like we take things too literally when things are supposed to be taken symbolically?
Example: the sacrament. From my study I’ve concluded that the sacrament is symbolic, not literal. It is done in remembrance of our Savior. It cleanses us symbolically and not literally.

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and ​brake​ it, and ​blessed​ it, and gave to ​his​ disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is ​in remembrance of​ my body ​which I give a ransom for you.​
​​​24 ​For this is ​in remembrance of​ my blood of the new testament, which is shed for ​as​ many ​as shall believe on my name,​ for the remission of ​their​ sins.
​​​25 ​​And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall observe to do the things which ye have seen me do, and bear record of me even unto the end.” Matthew 26:22-25 JST

We are cleansed as we repent daily and utilize the atonement of Christ. We do not need the sacrament for our salvation.

Bruce is right on in pointing out the importance of partaking these sanctified emblems. Everything we do that is righteous sanctifies, but the sacrament is like the legal way of saying that your repentance and remembrance of the Lord is recorded and sealed in heaven. The ordinances are formal worship, and the most important way we worship in spirit and in truth, as the spirit seals the covenant. It's like the difference between pining away and pleasing the boy you like and actually marrying him. The ordinance does sanctify you if done in the right state of mind. I'm not very good at focusing, but when I do, and exercise faith that I am cleansed and sanctified with this act, then I feel it.

Thank you for your input. I feel that the sacrament it is an outward symbol of what should occur within us and that my salvation is not tied to it.

My speculation might seem like it has a finger in both pies, but it is what it is.

I think it is meant as symbolic, spiritual, and "in remembrance", but I also think there's significance to the fact its in in the form of eating/drinking things emblematic of His flesh and blood.

Its like... there's lots of ways to remember something..
You can make some piece of art. You can write it down and read it out. Make any kind of rituals etc.

I think there's significance to the fact that the way we ritually remember the Atonement is specifically by eating & drinking things that symbolically represent the flesh & blood of God. I think that means something.

The symbolism is there... we become like our God by, in some way.. by eating Him.

Isn't He "the Word"? And who also affirmed "ye shall not live on bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"? We eat God's "Word", the true manna.

It offended people in John 6. "This is an hard saying." "Will ye also go away?"

Historically, this has been a massive source for rifts underlying various Christian theological schisms, regarding how all the details of the Sacrament works out.

The fate of among the greatest empires of A.D. history were sometimes literally determined along the lines of how you interpret the Sacrament. Tho tbh it kinda makes sense that that's the case. Something tells me the "Mark of the Animal" vs "Seal of the Living God" dichotomy will go down along similar lines. I

"The emblems of the Sacrament are blessed and sanctified. One must partake of these "blessed and sanctified, (set apart for a holy purpose,) emblems in order to become sanctified themselves. This is a prerequisite in order to walk as a Disciple of Christ, yes, in remembrance of His sacrifice, but, too, to become "figuratively; symbolically" members of HIS flesh and blood family. (That which is symbolic transfiguring into that which is literal.) It can be thought of as an act of "adoption."

Eating bread or drinking wine (water) does not sanctify anyone. We are sanctified by our faith in Christ, first when we are baptised and then as we continue to live according to the Words of Christ. As already mentioned, the 'sacrament' is something we do in remembrance of Jesus laying down his life for us. It is not some act of magic that washes away our sins and makes us clean again on a weekly basis. If you believe that it does, you might find a kindred spirit in the Catholic Church, which has believed pretty much the same thing for hundreds of years.

mike_rumble wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm
Eating bread or drinking wine (water) does not sanctify anyone.

It makes me wonder..

On one hand, as John says in his letter, the "spirit of antichrist" = that Christ did/does *not* come in the flesh.. -

2`John 1
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Maybe there's some type of inversion going on..?

As in, maybe they say Christ is not "in the flesh" in one sense, but that He is "in the flesh" in a more blasphemous, transmutative type of sense..? Switching what should be considered literal with what should be considered spiritual..

mike_rumble wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm Eating bread or drinking wine (water) does not sanctify anyone. We are sanctified by our faith in Christ, first when we are baptised and then as we continue to live according to the Words of Christ. As already mentioned, the 'sacrament' is something we do in remembrance of Jesus laying down his life for us. It is not some act of magic that washes away our sins and makes us clean again on a weekly basis. If you believe that it does, you might find a kindred spirit in the Catholic Church, which has believed pretty the same thing for hundreds of years.

If we perform our part according to the "blessing and sanctification," setting ourselves apart for a Holy Purpose according to that stated in the Sacramental Prayers -- to remember Him and to Keep His Commandments, etc. - we will be set apart for a special purpose: viz a viz by the reception of HIS SPIRIT, therefore, becoming sanctified by the Spirit. Therefore, WHAT? If we set ourselves apart for a holy purpose, God will respond with His part to set us apart for a Holy Purpose. If we sanctify ourselves according to the ordinances, we will be sanctified by God.

Wait-there are people who think it's literal? Of course it's a remembrance and symbolic. But Christ commanded it. He wants us to partake of it. BUT there is also power in it. A sanctifying power. Is that what you mean by literal?

keeprunning wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 7:35 pm Wait-there are people who think it's literal? Of course it's a remembrance and symbolic. But Christ commanded it. He wants us to partake of it. BUT there is also power in it. A sanctifying power. Is that what you mean by literal?

By literal I mean i focus too much on the outward ordinance and think it’s necessary for my salvation.
It’s an outward symbol of what should occur within and it is a way to become.

BruceRGilbert wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 7:27 pm

mike_rumble wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm Eating bread or drinking wine (water) does not sanctify anyone. We are sanctified by our faith in Christ, first when we are baptised and then as we continue to live according to the Words of Christ. As already mentioned, the 'sacrament' is something we do in remembrance of Jesus laying down his life for us. It is not some act of magic that washes away our sins and makes us clean again on a weekly basis. If you believe that it does, you might find a kindred spirit in the Catholic Church, which has believed pretty the same thing for hundreds of years.

If we perform our part according to the "blessing and sanctification," setting ourselves apart for a Holy Purpose according to that stated in the Sacramental Prayers -- to remember Him and to Keep His Commandments, etc. - we will be set apart for a special purpose: viz a viz by the reception of HIS SPIRIT, therefore, becoming sanctified by the Spirit. Therefore, WHAT? If we set ourselves apart for a holy purpose, God will respond with His part to set us apart for a Holy Purpose. If we sanctify ourselves according to the ordinances, we will be sanctified by God.

The 'sacramental prayers' have always reminded me of some kind of incantation, much like the 'official' prayers of the Catholic and Anglican churches. The words are exactly the same every week, as if reminding us of the reason for the 'sacrament' using slightly different words would somehow render the whole thing ineffective. Even the use of the term 'sacrament' makes me cringe a little, as it was obviously borrowed from the mainline Christian churches. Oh well, it will serve us well as we integrate into the great mother church of Rome.

mike_rumble wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 8:45 pm The 'sacramental prayers' have always reminded me of some kind of incantation, much like the 'official' prayers of the Catholic and Anglican churches. The words are exactly the same every week, as if reminding us of the reason for the 'sacrament' using slightly different words would somehow render the whole thing ineffective. Even the use of the term 'sacrament' makes me cringe a little, as it was obviously borrowed from the mainline Christian churches. Oh well, it will serve us well as we integrate into the great mother church of Rome.

Well Mike, it works for me. Powers of Godliness have been manifested to me through reception of the Lord's Spirit by virtue of this ordinance. I can definitely witness to you that it works and is a valuable means in becoming Sanctified and Redeemed from the fall.

BruceRGilbert wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 9:05 pm

mike_rumble wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 8:45 pm The 'sacramental prayers' have always reminded me of some kind of incantation, much like the 'official' prayers of the Catholic and Anglican churches. The words are exactly the same every week, as if reminding us of the reason for the 'sacrament' using slightly different words would somehow render the whole thing ineffective. Even the use of the term 'sacrament' makes me cringe a little, as it was obviously borrowed from the mainline Christian churches. Oh well, it will serve us well as we integrate into the great mother church of Rome.

Well Mike, it works for me. Powers of Godliness have been manifested to me through reception of the Lord's Spirit by virtue of this ordinance. I can definitely witness to you that it works and is a valuable means in becoming Sanctified and Redeemed from the fall.

I'm happy it works for you. Never my job to change a person's mind or convince a person that I'm right and they're wrong. I think I've said it before. I just enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions in this forum. It's one of the best around the internet. It gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see that little red dot up by my avatar, that says someone has thanked my or quoted me in a post. It's all good.

same question was asked during the time of the law of moses. the answer given was that it does not in itself redeem but that Christ who is to come will redeem. But, it is a type of Christ. Sacrafices were symbolic and types as well. . .before Christ had made the atonement. You will find this in the BofM.

Mamabear wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 6:37 pm Thank you for your input. I feel that the sacrament it is an outward symbol of what should occur within us and that my salvation is not tied to it.

All ordinances are outward symbols. Baptism is an outward symbol - it would be ridiculous to think that the water cleanses you. Yet there is more to the ordinances than just the part visible outwards. So is the case with the sacrament too.



I agree with this:

Mamabear wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 8:16 pm By literal I mean i focus too much on the outward ordinance and think it’s necessary for my salvation.
It’s an outward symbol of what should occur within and it is a way to become.

But I am not sure if I agree with this:

Mamabear wrote: ↑November 24th, 2021, 2:55 pm We do not need the sacrament for our salvation.

Would you say the same about some other ordinance?