Church is Robbing the Lamanites of their Birthright

[Subcomandante]

https://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2019/ ... art-1.html

This guy absolutely DEVASTATES the Annotated Edition of the Book of Mormon as published by the Heartlanders.

Good old Ploni Almoni; aka Stephen Owen Smoot. He puts out good stuff.

Peter Pan is pretty good too, though to be honest he's just a trollskij compared to brother Smoot. He's the guy behind the Neville Neville Land blog.

[jreuben]

Sorry @subcomo, you're sharing trash again. That guy's arguments are complete garbage and scripturally unfounded. Sad to see such things being touted like this. You guys simply don't want to know truth - or are simply too possessed by evil spirits to come to want truth.

[larsenb]

Sorry @subcomo, you're sharing trash again. That guy's arguments are complete garbage and scripturally unfounded. Sad to see such things being touted like this. You guys simply don't want to know truth - or are simply too possessed by evil spirits to come to want truth.

One of the repeated characteristics I've noticed of many of the Heartland Model group is the emotionality and accusatory attitudes they display. This post is a perfect example of this tendency.

It becomes apparent that many of these people have made their belief in the Heartland Model part and parcel of their religious belief.

I've never heard any of our leaders or anything from the scriptures that say or imply that we are under any condemnation or judgement for holding a particular belief of where we think the main portions of the Book of Mormon took place.

[jreuben]

That faux cool and calculated reply might win you some points in some circles (especially the cult of babylon) @larsenb, but I guess it just shows you how out of touch you are with testimonies and obtainment of a testimony. I guess I reveal my frustrated sadness over you, others in this thread and the apostate leaders in the church and members who teach the abominable concept/doctrine (not really a doctrine, but it is important to the Book of Mormon and was to brother Joseph) contrary that in my emotional remarks.

Personally I already have a testimony of this, but if I am to be honest it pains me to see others such as yourself who don't care enough to try to exercise simple processes set forth in the scriptures to obtain the truth of things. I know that the Book of Mormon happened in North America and that the Midwest is what has been discussed in this context. I also know of the land round about Ohio to be the Land Bountiful. I would invite you to pray about it, visit the areas, look at the locations that are specifically called out (they are there and LIDAR shows them, but they are now built over and otherwise not easy to see, but the "artifacts" that are desired are indeed there under the ground and in the shape of the earth that yet remains due to failure to obliterate them entirely) and then pray some more. This is a powerful way to come to the truth.

I guess the fact of the matter is that the prophet Joseph did factually and frankly teach this, so there's no reason to teach otherwise. The leaders and members who have taught otherwise since him are simply apostatized from the truth.

[larsenb]

That faux cool and calculated reply might win you some points in some circles (especially the cult of babylon) @larsenb, but I guess it just shows you how out of touch you are with testimonies and obtainment of a testimony. I guess I reveal my frustrated sadness over you, others in this thread and the apostate leaders in the church and members who teach the abominable concept/doctrine (not really a doctrine, but it is important to the Book of Mormon and was to brother Joseph) contrary that in my emotional remarks.

Personally I already have a testimony of this, but if I am to be honest it pains me to see others such as yourself who don't care enough to try to exercise simple processes set forth in the scriptures to obtain the truth of things. I know that the Book of Mormon happened in North America and that the Midwest is what has been discussed in this context. I also know of the land round about Ohio to be the Land Bountiful. I would invite you to pray about it, visit the areas, look at the locations that are specifically called out (they are there and LIDAR shows them, but they are now built over and otherwise not easy to see, but the "artifacts" that are desired are indeed there under the ground and in the shape of the earth that yet remains due to failure to obliterate them entirely) and then pray some more. This is a powerful way to come to the truth.

I guess the fact of the matter is that the prophet Joseph did factually and frankly teach this, so there's no reason to teach otherwise. The leaders and members who have taught otherwise since him are simply apostatized from the truth.

Another example of making geography a part of your religion and making extreme accusations against those you don't agree with. As mentioned, you're welcome to it.

Once again, the evidence shows that the T&S articles editorials were written and approved of by JS. You can ignore the proofs and data/evidence all you want.

Also recent LIDAR data out of northern Guatemala shows very dense population to include extensive farming, defensive structures, and water works, etc., in an area about the size of Utah Valley. Just one small area. See: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau0137 and https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot. ... lidar.html (by Kirk Magleby)

Here's Magelby's list of what the LIDAR data showed, and how it corresponds with the Book of Mormon:

LiDAR Surveyed Areas within the Central Maya Lowlands
Canuto, et al., September 28, 2018
What we learn from the Canuto, et al. article:
• The lowland Maya flourished from 1,000 BC to AD 1500 (European contact). The later portions of the Book of Mormon fit comfortably in this time horizon. Three of the ten survey blocks contain large numbers of structures that were abandoned in the late preclassic (before AD 250). This dating corresponds well with the Nephite record.
• The Maya are known for sophisticated writing, art, architecture, astronomy, and mathematics. The Book of Mormon describes this level of cultural attainment Helaman 3:15.
• The Maya achieved substantial ancient population. The best estimates are 7 - 11 million people in the 95,000 square kilometers of the central Maya lowlands at apogee (AD 650 - 800). The central Maya lowlands constitute about 27% of the entire Maya area (approximately 350,000 square kilometers). Book of Mormon demography is on this order of magnitude Mosiah 8:8.
• The Maya built "complex previously unrecognized landscape modifications at a grand scale." This corresponds well with the Book of Mormon's own description of its built environment Mormon 1:7.
• Across the survey area of 2,144 square kilometers, structure density averages 29 per square kilometer. This implies a population density of 80 - 120 persons per square kilometer. 35 modern nations have population densities in this range including Honduras (80), Greece (82), Iraq (88), Spain (92), Egypt (97), Costa Rica (98), Turkey (103), Austria (105), and Portugal (112). All 10 of the PLI survey blocks were in Guatemala which has a modern population density of 158 persons per square kilometer.
• This population was distributed across rural, periurban, and urban zones, precisely as the Book of Mormon describes Mormon 5:5.
• The Maya practiced intensive agriculture to sustain their massive populations. The Book of Mormon describes productive agriculture yielding surpluses Alma 1:29.
• Archaeologists were surprised to find extensive agricultural fields in low-lying wetlands. This implies a high degree of centralized social control. The Book of Mormon explicitly talks about centralized social control Alma 50:9.
• The PLI survey found approximately 106 kilometers of causeways within and between urban centers. Many date to preclassic (Book of Mormon) times. Most were 10 to 20 meters in width. The widest causeway surveyed, at Tikal, was 80 meters wide. The Book of Mormon describes roads and highways 3 Nephi 6:8, 8:13.
• "Sizable defensive features" imply "large-scale conflict." This sounds like a paraphrase of the Book of Mormon Mormon 8:8.
• The Maya had a complex economy based on agriculture and trade. Ditto the economy described in the Book of Mormon 4 Nephi 1:46.
• The more than 60,000 structures identified in the PLI survey required a heavy labor investment. The Book of Mormon describes public works built with heavy labor investments Alma 55:25.
• Structures identified in the PLI survey include multiple types of buildings, fortifications, upland and wetland agricultural features, causeways, canals, and reservoirs. This is similar to Book of Mormon verbiage. Helaman 3:9.
• The PLI survey found ancient landscape features even in flood-prone, poorly drained areas. The Book of Mormon describes population density increasing to such an extent that the people eventually built up even their least desirable land areas Helaman 11:20.
• Man-made water channels are found throughout the Maya area. One example, at Tintal, is 2.5 kilometers long. The Book of Mormon mentions ditches being dug Alma 53:3.
• Stone walls as long as 1 kilometer have been discovered. The Book of Mormon explicitly mentions walls of stone Alma 48:8.
• Archaeologists have found evidence of cultivated fields, orchards, and household gardens. The Book of Mormon describes farmers raising grain and fruit as well as pastoralists raising animals Enos 1:21.
• The PLI survey implies agricultural land dedicated to fiber production. The Book of Mormon describes cloth production Mosiah 10:5.
• Portions of the PLI survey blocks remained in old growth forests. Forests are mentioned in the Nephite text Enos 1:3.
• Portions of the PLI survey blocks contained relatively few structures of any kind. Archaeologists called them "vacant." The Book of Mormon describes tracts of wilderness adjoining settled lands Omni 1:12.
• Maya cities had dependent hinterlands. The Book of Mormon describes these periurban edges as "the land round about" Mosiah 23:25.
• Some Maya urbanizations were formidable. The center of El Perú-Waka' had a density of 1,100 structures per square kilometer. Tikal extended over at least 76 square kilometers. The Tikal palace had a man-made reservoir that held 31,000 cubic meters (8 million gallons) of water. The Book of Mormon mentions great cities 3 Nephi 9:3-5 and implies a high level of urbane sophistication Helaman 3:14.
The Book of Mormon describes warfare in considerable detail per Nephi's original instructions to his posterity 1 Nephi 9:4. The PLI survey provides more information than we have ever had before about defensive structures in the Maya area. Now things get very interesting.
1. The Maya built five different types of defensive fortifications that show up on LiDAR. Two of them (landscape ditch and rampart, hilltop ditch and rampart) are precisely the kind of fortifications the Book of Mormon describes Alma 49:18. A third (stone wall) is also attested in the Nephite text Alma 48:8.
2. The PLI survey found 31 instances of defended areas in the 2,144 square kilometers they mapped. This high fortification density was entirely unexpected, but it fits comfortably into Captain Moroni's world Alma 50:1,6. Ubiquitous defensive structures, previously known only from the Book of Mormon, are now attested archaeologically.
3. Some parts of Maya cities were more heavily fortified than others. The Book of Mormon explicitly says cities had stronger and weaker areas Alma 48:5.
4. Some Maya cities were more heavily fortified than others. The Book of Mormon describes precisely this situation Alma 49:14-15.
5. We have known about fortified Maya cities since the 1960's when reports on Becan and Tikal were published. The PLI survey showed that the Maya also built small military forts designed for brief stays remote from urban cores. Scholars did not see this coming, but it is exactly what the Book of Mormon describes. Archaeologists call these isolated structures "refuges" and five of them are identified in the Canuto, et al. article (RS028, Turca East, Kanalna North, Kanalna South, and El Achiotal Peninsula. The Book of Mormon calls them "small forts" and "places of resort" Alma 48:5, 8; 52:6. A defensive structure built primarily for occasional military use, previously known only from the Book of Mormon, is now attested archaeologically.

I hope you post the LIDAR data you mentioned. Will you?

[jreuben]

The LIDAR data is already there. Apparently you're not reading things thoroughly and that is another reason I simply believe you're too simply married (committed) to your (biased) line of thinking. I grew up thinking like you for about 40 years before I discovered this so I can understand the reason for the bias but if you read through things and do research and open yourself up to welcoming this line of thinking instead of being critical against it then everything begins to open up and the answers to your questions are all found rather readily (and much of it is all already linked to in the previous posts in this thread).

[Subcomandante]

The LIDAR data is already there. Apparently you're not reading things thoroughly and that is another reason I simply believe you're too simply married (committed) to your (biased) line of thinking. I grew up thinking like you for about 40 years before I discovered this so I can understand the reason for the bias but if you read through things and do research and open yourself up to welcoming this line of thinking instead of being critical against it then everything begins to open up and the answers to your questions are all found rather readily (and much of it is all already linked to in the previous posts in this thread).

If it's there, post it. LarsonB took a lot of time to post the LIDAR information regarding Mesoamerica and especially the Mayan lowlands. I served my mission in Chiapas, and there are structures that have been swallowed up by the jungles over time, but one can easily tell there are structures there. Even in the lakes and nearby oceans there were structures that were eaten up by the waves. Others that were covered up by volcanoes (Moronihah comes to mind being swallowed up by a mountain). Others sunk into the sea with their inhabitants drowned.

You go down to South America, there is also a lot of documented stuff that happened down there too with structures and linguistic and cultural connections both with Polynesia and with the Tarascan tribe of Mexico (those guys lived in Michoacan). Further north you have the Chibcha cultures that DID have a writing system themselves, but I haven't really noticed any scholars really investigate the area between about Ecuador and Nicaragua including Panama, Costa Rica and Colombia. A lot of the REALLY interesting stuff I have read has been further north (Meso) or further south (Peru).

Further north in Aridoamerica (the area corresponding from north central Mexico up to the American Southwest including Utah and Colorado) you had the Uto-Aztecan family of languages, which has been proven to have multiple similarities to the Semitic family of languages. That's important because the Nephites were able to (at least initially) speak Hebrew and Egyptian.

[Luke]

Not going to weigh into the discussion on where it happened, but this is worth consideration by many (as far as where the Lamanites are is concerned):

“He [Joseph Smith] taught us that the saints would fill the great West, and through Mexico, Central and South America we would do a great work for the redemption of the remnant of Jacob.” (Benjamin F. Johnson’s Letter to George S. Gibbs, circa 1903)

[Robin Hood]

Not going to weigh into the discussion on where it happened, but this is worth consideration by many (as far as where the Lamanites are is concerned):

“He [Joseph Smith] taught us that the saints would fill the great West, and through Mexico, Central and South America we would do a great work for the redemption of the remnant of Jacob.” (Benjamin F. Johnson’s Letter to George S. Gibbs, circa 1903)

Hardly a credible first or even second or third hand reference.

[Subcomandante]

Not going to weigh into the discussion on where it happened, but this is worth consideration by many (as far as where the Lamanites are is concerned):

“He [Joseph Smith] taught us that the saints would fill the great West, and through Mexico, Central and South America we would do a great work for the redemption of the remnant of Jacob.” (Benjamin F. Johnson’s Letter to George S. Gibbs, circa 1903)

That's pretty interesting, albeit the letter is from nearly 60 years after the fact as a minimum. If there is a secondary witness showing a similar teaching I would be all ears

[larsenb]

The LIDAR data is already there. Apparently you're not reading things thoroughly and that is another reason I simply believe you're too simply married (committed) to your (biased) line of thinking. I grew up thinking like you for about 40 years before I discovered this so I can understand the reason for the bias but if you read through things and do research and open yourself up to welcoming this line of thinking instead of being critical against it then everything begins to open up and the answers to your questions are all found rather readily (and much of it is all already linked to in the previous posts in this thread).

The LIDAR data is where?? If you've presented this before, where is it? And yes, I don't read everything posted on this particular blog.

You seem to be really addicted to believing whatever assumptions pop into your head.

And no, I doubt you grew up '"thinking" like me. My thought patterns and habits have evolved quite a bit over time. And my so-called bias is based on my reading and weighing the evidence for various models, to include that put forth for the HL model. It's just that I see the preponderance of evidence supporting one of the Mesoamerican models.

The internal statements in the Book of Mormon that deal with or are related to its actual geographical information simply don't line up with what the HM proponents claim. For me, it's not much more complicated than that.

The HM model also has a big problem with Nephi''s description of "a man among the gentiles". That's my strong opinion. You are welcome to think otherwise.

[JuneBug12000]

@BuriedTartaria indeed this is true. While I don't subscribe to some of what is being said in regards to the older buildings insomuch that I believe they were decimated/obliterated instead of being repurposed.

That’s totally fair. I dont agree with all their conclusions, like you. I’m just adding to your voice that many people feel there have been other civilizations present and then destroyed in the lands of the United States

My username: Tartaria has become a generic word referencing any civilization that may have been destroyed and had their history erased from academic history. That reminds me a lot of the message of the Book of Mormon: two nations utterly destroyed and buried from history


I think destroyed civilizations are whispering from the dust so that’s how I got my username. Thanks for some awesome material in this thread. I’m a big believer of a United States setting for the Book of Mormon.

You may have already read this, but here is the link to history/geography including the Tartarians.

Book 4, Chapters 11-17 Pages 398-434
https://archive.org/details/purchashisp ... ew=theater

Edit, I updated the link to go straight to the page where the Tartar history starts.