Church is Robbing the Lamanites of their Birthright

[gruden2.0]

This is a totally false equivalence. There IS a MASSIVE coverup effort to destroy all evidence of any significant civilization in America pre-Columbus (including evidence of giants). You can watch this video for more info: Jim Viera - Research of Giant Skeletons / Remains

You can also ruminate on the fact that the founders of the Smithsonian had fathers who were preachers from Palmyra that detested Joseph Smith:

• https://tldrify.com/169h
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/native ... sely-lost/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/john-w ... _of_Mormon

There has also been a massive coverup to hide and destroy evidence proving the authenticity of the Bible... and a massive coverup to hide the history of the communist takeover of America... and a massive coverup to hide cures for cancer... and a massive coverup to hide true science and the nature of our spirits (D&C 131:7)... in short, many things have been foisted upon us and hidden from our understanding because of the "evil designs which exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days!!!" (D&C 89:4).

Just because sometimes there really is no evidence for certain falsehoods (e.g., "masks save lives", "Russia hacked the election", "Trump raped dozens of women", etc.), doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a conspiracy to destroy evidence and cover things up!!! There are definitely conspiracies to cover things up, all over the place in the modern world today!!! Joseph Smith said: "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (TPJS 374)

You speak the truth. To all believers in the Book of Mormon, many of you are behind on the awakening occurring in non-Mormon alternative thinking circles. There is an enthusiastic, growing movement present that believes there was some sort or multiple civilizations on the North American lands at some point in time before the European Settlers of the 1700s arrived. This movement believes some (many?) of these civilizations had buildings they made repurposed for and claimed as being made by United States settlers

This movement doesn’t attribute these hints of a dead society as being related to the Book of Mormon but more and more people are thinking there was at least one intelligent, developed civilization on the US lands that made elaborate cities and buildings before the birth and settlement of the United States

There is also a cover-up of alternative energy sources... and so many other things. TPTB simply do not want us to know things, because, as they say, knowledge is power. Keep us dumb and ignorant while they keep various occultic and scientific secrets to themselves.

But what's really distressing is Mormons don't understand the geography of the BoM. A big reason is the cover up of so much archeology in the midwest/eastern US. In the early 19th century farmers were turning up all kinds of interesting artifacts, many of which hinted at a Judeo-christian civilization. The narrow neck of land isn't in central america, it's southern Ontario where Canada connects to Michigan. Lehi landed in the Florida panhandle and the land of Nephi was a bit north of that. Zarahemla was across the Mississippi from Nauvoo (coincidence?). Who we have been led to believe are the children of Lehi are not so, but yet not far away.

[4Joshua8]

This is a totally false equivalence. There IS a MASSIVE coverup effort to destroy all evidence of any significant civilization in America pre-Columbus (including evidence of giants). You can watch this video for more info: Jim Viera - Research of Giant Skeletons / Remains

You can also ruminate on the fact that the founders of the Smithsonian had fathers who were preachers from Palmyra that detested Joseph Smith:

• https://tldrify.com/169h
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/native ... sely-lost/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/john-w ... _of_Mormon

There has also been a massive coverup to hide and destroy evidence proving the authenticity of the Bible... and a massive coverup to hide the history of the communist takeover of America... and a massive coverup to hide cures for cancer... and a massive coverup to hide true science and the nature of our spirits (D&C 131:7)... in short, many things have been foisted upon us and hidden from our understanding because of the "evil designs which exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days!!!" (D&C 89:4).

Just because sometimes there really is no evidence for certain falsehoods (e.g., "masks save lives", "Russia hacked the election", "Trump raped dozens of women", etc.), doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a conspiracy to destroy evidence and cover things up!!! There are definitely conspiracies to cover things up, all over the place in the modern world today!!! Joseph Smith said: "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (TPJS 374)

You speak the truth. To all believers in the Book of Mormon, many of you are behind on the awakening occurring in non-Mormon alternative thinking circles. There is an enthusiastic, growing movement present that believes there was some sort or multiple civilizations on the North American lands at some point in time before the European Settlers of the 1700s arrived. This movement believes some (many?) of these civilizations had buildings they made repurposed for and claimed as being made by United States settlers

This movement doesn’t attribute these hints of a dead society as being related to the Book of Mormon but more and more people are thinking there was at least one intelligent, developed civilization on the US lands that made elaborate cities and buildings before the birth and settlement of the United States

There is also a cover-up of alternative energy sources... and so many other things. TPTB simply do not want us to know things, because, as they say, knowledge is power. Keep us dumb and ignorant while they keep various occultic and scientific secrets to themselves.

But what's really distressing is Mormons don't understand the geography of the BoM. A big reason is the cover up of so much archeology in the midwest/eastern US. In the early 19th century farmers were turning up all kinds of interesting artifacts, many of which hinted at a Judeo-christian civilization. The narrow neck of land isn't in central america, it's southern Ontario where Canada connects to Michigan. Lehi landed in the Florida panhandle and the land of Nephi was a bit north of that. Zarahemla was across the Mississippi from Nauvoo (coincidence?). Who we have been led to believe are the children of Lehi are not so, but yet not far away.

The Book of Mormon talks about the "narrow" neck and pass in different contexts throughout the book of mormon.
Here's some of them:

narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward
narrow pass which led into the land northward
small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward
narrow passage which led into the land southward
narrow pass which led into the land southward
narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land

The way I read it, they don't all refer to the same feature. I think there are at least two or three features going on here, with at least one of them by the great lakes.

And "where the sea divides the land" gives an image to me of land on either side of a body of water, not water on either side of a body of land. The great lakes fits that, too, with the sea(s) dividing the land.

Whether the geography includes Central America or not, I think it at least includes the Great Lakes area and south of that to the Gulf of Mexico.

[Serragon]

The Church has even said in their Gospel Essays that using the Haplogroup X to try to prove that the Lehites were in North America is a fool's errand.

Remember that the aspect of Laman and Lemuel and their descendants changed shortly after they arrived at the Land of Promise. Therefore, their DNA would also have undergone changes. That's pretty simple.

But the church has recently disavowed this "racist" understanding of the curse.

[Subcomandante]

The Church has even said in their Gospel Essays that using the Haplogroup X to try to prove that the Lehites were in North America is a fool's errand.

Remember that the aspect of Laman and Lemuel and their descendants changed shortly after they arrived at the Land of Promise. Therefore, their DNA would also have undergone changes. That's pretty simple.

But the church has recently disavowed this "racist" understanding of the curse.

The curse that was disavowed referred to the curse that prohibited the blacks from receiving the priesthood.

[Subcomandante]

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.

The evidences have been refuted ad nauseum .

Haplogroup X2A - tens of thousands of years ago, nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.
Holy Stones of Newark - forgeries, and poorly copied ones at that. The Hebrew does not match the Hebrew of the pre-exile period, but rather the post-exile period. That is in itself an anachronism.
Michigan Relics - more forgeries.
Breastplates - Ceremonial in fashion.
Cahokia - dates to after the Book of Mormon period, and compared with cities further south in Meso and South America, quite unimpressive.

[Subcomandante]

This is a totally false equivalence. There IS a MASSIVE coverup effort to destroy all evidence of any significant civilization in America pre-Columbus (including evidence of giants). You can watch this video for more info: Jim Viera - Research of Giant Skeletons / Remains

You can also ruminate on the fact that the founders of the Smithsonian had fathers who were preachers from Palmyra that detested Joseph Smith:

• https://tldrify.com/169h
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/native ... sely-lost/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/john-w ... _of_Mormon

There has also been a massive coverup to hide and destroy evidence proving the authenticity of the Bible... and a massive coverup to hide the history of the communist takeover of America... and a massive coverup to hide cures for cancer... and a massive coverup to hide true science and the nature of our spirits (D&C 131:7)... in short, many things have been foisted upon us and hidden from our understanding because of the "evil designs which exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days!!!" (D&C 89:4).

Just because sometimes there really is no evidence for certain falsehoods (e.g., "masks save lives", "Russia hacked the election", "Trump raped dozens of women", etc.), doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a conspiracy to destroy evidence and cover things up!!! There are definitely conspiracies to cover things up, all over the place in the modern world today!!! Joseph Smith said: "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (TPJS 374)

You speak the truth. To all believers in the Book of Mormon, many of you are behind on the awakening occurring in non-Mormon alternative thinking circles. There is an enthusiastic, growing movement present that believes there was some sort or multiple civilizations on the North American lands at some point in time before the European Settlers of the 1700s arrived. This movement believes some (many?) of these civilizations had buildings they made repurposed for and claimed as being made by United States settlers

This movement doesn’t attribute these hints of a dead society as being related to the Book of Mormon but more and more people are thinking there was at least one intelligent, developed civilization on the US lands that made elaborate cities and buildings before the birth and settlement of the United States

There is also a cover-up of alternative energy sources... and so many other things. TPTB simply do not want us to know things, because, as they say, knowledge is power. Keep us dumb and ignorant while they keep various occultic and scientific secrets to themselves.

But what's really distressing is Mormons don't understand the geography of the BoM. A big reason is the cover up of so much archeology in the midwest/eastern US. In the early 19th century farmers were turning up all kinds of interesting artifacts, many of which hinted at a Judeo-christian civilization. The narrow neck of land isn't in central america, it's southern Ontario where Canada connects to Michigan. Lehi landed in the Florida panhandle and the land of Nephi was a bit north of that. Zarahemla was across the Mississippi from Nauvoo (coincidence?). Who we have been led to believe are the children of Lehi are not so, but yet not far away.

Lehi didn't land anywhere near Florida. The currents would NEVER have worked in his favor. In addition, the climate in NW Florida would not permit the types of crops to be grown that were grown in Jerusalem.

[Serragon]

The Church has even said in their Gospel Essays that using the Haplogroup X to try to prove that the Lehites were in North America is a fool's errand.

Remember that the aspect of Laman and Lemuel and their descendants changed shortly after they arrived at the Land of Promise. Therefore, their DNA would also have undergone changes. That's pretty simple.

But the church has recently disavowed this "racist" understanding of the curse.

The curse that was disavowed referred to the curse that prohibited the blacks from receiving the priesthood.

No. Though he was speaking to the NAACP, he was specifically speaking about the passage in the BOM and Come Follow Me manual regarding dark skin being a sign of the curse on the Lamanites He said that neither black or dark skin is a sign for a curse. Essentially he was saying that we now disavow that skin color would ever be the mark of a curse even though Nephi specifically said that it was.

[markharr]

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.

The evidences have been refuted ad nauseum .

Haplogroup X2A - tens of thousands of years ago, nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.
Holy Stones of Newark - forgeries, and poorly copied ones at that. The Hebrew does not match the Hebrew of the pre-exile period, but rather the post-exile period. That is in itself an anachronism.
Michigan Relics - more forgeries.
Breastplates - Ceremonial in fashion.
Cahokia - dates to after the Book of Mormon period, and compared with cities further south in Meso and South America, quite unimpressive.

You haven't refuted anything. Just gaslighting.

[larsenb]

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.

There are oodles of rebuttals of Heartland assertions. These have been linked or posted many times on previous threads dealing with this topic. Many good rebuttals of Neville's output as well.

[Subcomandante]

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.

The evidences have been refuted ad nauseum .

Haplogroup X2A - tens of thousands of years ago, nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.
Holy Stones of Newark - forgeries, and poorly copied ones at that. The Hebrew does not match the Hebrew of the pre-exile period, but rather the post-exile period. That is in itself an anachronism.
Michigan Relics - more forgeries.
Breastplates - Ceremonial in fashion.
Cahokia - dates to after the Book of Mormon period, and compared with cities further south in Meso and South America, quite unimpressive.

You haven't refuted anything. Just gaslighting.

I'm not gaslighting. Nor am I using ad hominem. Just pointing out the inaccuracies that have been documented of pretty much EVERY claim that the Meldrumites and Nevillites have made.

Lehi didn't come anywhere near Florida. The climate of Florida would not have permitted the seedlings he brought from Jerusalem to grow. It may be the same approximate latitude, but the climate of Florida is quite different from that at Jerusalem, just as it is different in Nanjing, Islamabad, Kandahar, Nasiriyah, or Casablanca.

[markharr]

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.
[/quote]

There are oodles of rebuttals of Heartland assertions. These have been linked or posted many times on previous threads dealing with this topic. Many good rebuttals of Neville's output as well.
[/quote]

I'm not searching through this entire site.

One example
"breastplates were ceremonial" with absolutely no evidence to back that up is not a refutal.

Why would a civilization make a massive leap in technology like gaining the ability to refine iron ore and then only use it for ceremonial purposes?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

[markharr]

The learned men that scripture warns us about. They exist in our own church as well.

They banked their entire careers and credibility on a theory and when better more compelling evidence comes along, their pride will not allow them to acknowledge that they were wrong.

[gruden2.0]

The Book of Mormon talks about the "narrow" neck and pass in different contexts throughout the book of mormon.
Here's some of them:

narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward
narrow pass which led into the land northward
small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward
narrow passage which led into the land southward
narrow pass which led into the land southward
narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land

The way I read it, they don't all refer to the same feature. I think there are at least two or three features going on here, with at least one of them by the great lakes.

And "where the sea divides the land" gives an image to me of land on either side of a body of water, not water on either side of a body of land. The great lakes fits that, too, with the sea(s) dividing the land.

Whether the geography includes Central America or not, I think it at least includes the Great Lakes area and south of that to the Gulf of Mexico.

I can agree with you that it applies to other areas, but it is not that far south. Again, look at the map where the dark yellow is, which provides a big hint as to the geography of where most of it takes place, and they aren't that far south.

[larsenb]

There are oodles of rebuttals of Heartland assertions. These have been linked or posted many times on previous threads dealing with this topic. Many good rebuttals of Neville's output as well.

I'm not searching through this entire site.

One example
"breastplates were ceremonial" with absolutely no evidence to back that up is not a refutal.

Why would a civilization make a massive leap in technology like gaining the ability to refine iron ore and then only use it for ceremonial purposes?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

And your point is? This alone doesn't make much sense. You need to say who wrote it and where you found it . . . . for starters.

[larsenb]

The learned men that scripture warns us about. They exist in our own church as well.

They banked their entire careers and credibility on a theory and when better more compelling evidence comes along, their pride will not allow them to acknowledge that they were wrong.

A perfect example of the logical fallacy of a black-and-quite, blanket judgment. And highly judgemental to boot.

[larsenb]

. . . . . Lehi didn't land anywhere near Florida. The currents would NEVER have worked in his favor. In addition, the climate in NW Florida would not permit the types of crops to be grown that were grown in Jerusalem.

And Alma 22:28 strongly indicates to my reading of it that the Nephites landed on the shores of the Sea West:

"28: Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore."

You could nail this thesis home by other readings that describe Zarahemla, the Land of Nephi, etc, in relation to the Seas East and West.

[markharr]

The learned men that scripture warns us about. They exist in our own church as well.

They banked their entire careers and credibility on a theory and when better more compelling evidence comes along, their pride will not allow them to acknowledge that they were wrong.

A perfect example of the logical fallacy of a black-and-quite, blanket judgment. And highly judgemental to boot.

It was too judgmental I agree.

I still believe we have two types here. Those who thought they had it figured out and do not like anyone else coming in with new evidence that disrupts their model and those who believed that they were the remnant and that they were special and do not like being told that they may be just a gentile.

In the end it doesn't matter. It is a fun debate to have but what matters is not whether you are a remnant or a gentile. What matters is that you are a follower of Christ.

[larsenb]

The learned men that scripture warns us about. They exist in our own church as well.

They banked their entire careers and credibility on a theory and when better more compelling evidence comes along, their pride will not allow them to acknowledge that they were wrong.

A perfect example of the logical fallacy of a black-and-quite, blanket judgment. And highly judgemental to boot.

It was too judgmental I agree.

I still believe we have two types here. Those who thought they had it figured out and do not like anyone else coming in with new evidence that disrupts their model and those who believed that they were the remnant and that they were special and do not like being told that they may be just a gentile.

In the end it doesn't matter. It is a fun debate to have but what matters is not whether you are a remnant or a gentile. What matters is that you are a follower of Christ.

Can't disagree.

Most people I know who subscribe to one of the Mesoamerican models do so because of the evidence. And I'm not aware of any of these who would not be swayed by a preponderance of evidence for another model . . . . if it existed.

[larsenb]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deiry is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

Holy Canolli, the similarities are huge! In my mind, it all testifies of the truth of the Atonement and of the plan of salvation. It's absolutely undeniable.

It is all mixed in with pagan corruptions/distortions of course, but there is enough of a core there to go on. Sceptics say that it's all down to the Catholic Spanish invaders.

I don't buy it. The idea of a Creator God who dominates the rest can be found in much of the world. It's usually (but not always) a sky god. Even the Hindus have their Brahma. The flood can be found in practically every culture around the world. Here you have someone who can walk on water (and Viracocha's name appears to refer to that), with an only begotten son, the flood, missions and all the rest.

In a lot of cases, ungodly heathen elements creep in, e.g. Mesoamericans added human sacrifice to their temples, and Babylonians prostitution, but you can even see a core there. For example, here Viracocha creates people out of rocks, not mud... and the giants are like the Nephilim killed by the flood.

I always find Wikipedia amusing, because it often goes out of its way to debunk something and then goes and proves it. The Viracocha article does this. (So does the Hunter Biden article, it says his foreign links are a debunked conspiracy theory, and then goes and lists them.)

Regarding your comment about similarities between belief in a creator God/Christianity and the concepts of Viracocha, etc., the same attitude is taken by scholars/skeptics regarding similarities between aspects of the Mayan Codexes and a white Christian-like God, stories out of the Bible and even stories about how their 7 tribes came to a promised land in boats under direction of their shamans/prophets. But the Codexes were not written to gain favor of Catholic Priests, but were written and hidden away, and only came to light years and even centuries later, due to changing circumstances.

I'm able to say this because I spent considerable time working over an article on the subject written by an archaeologist I was associated with, and wrestled quite a bit with the controversial passages he was citing from the codexes and their various translations.

[Niemand]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deiry is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

Holy Canolli, the similarities are huge! In my mind, it all testifies of the truth of the Atonement and of the plan of salvation. It's absolutely undeniable.

It is all mixed in with pagan corruptions/distortions of course, but there is enough of a core there to go on. Sceptics say that it's all down to the Catholic Spanish invaders.

I don't buy it. The idea of a Creator God who dominates the rest can be found in much of the world. It's usually (but not always) a sky god. Even the Hindus have their Brahma. The flood can be found in practically every culture around the world. Here you have someone who can walk on water (and Viracocha's name appears to refer to that), with an only begotten son, the flood, missions and all the rest.

In a lot of cases, ungodly heathen elements creep in, e.g. Mesoamericans added human sacrifice to their temples, and Babylonians prostitution, but you can even see a core there. For example, here Viracocha creates people out of rocks, not mud... and the giants are like the Nephilim killed by the flood.

I always find Wikipedia amusing, because it often goes out of its way to debunk something and then goes and proves it. The Viracocha article does this. (So does the Hunter Biden article, it says his foreign links are a debunked conspiracy theory, and then goes and lists them.)

Regarding your comment about similarities between belief in a creator God/Christianity and the concepts of Viracocha, etc., the same attitude is taken by scholars/skeptics regarding similarities between aspects of the Mayan Codexes and a white Christian-like God, stories out of the Bible and even stories about how their 7 tribes came to a promised land in boats under direction of their shamans/prophets. But the Codexes were not written to gain favor of Catholic Priests, but were written and hidden away, and only came to light years and even centuries later, due to changing circumstances.

I'm able to say this because I spent considerable time working over an article on the subject written by an archaeologist I was associated with, and wrestled quite a bit with the controversial passages he was citing from the codexes and their various translations.

It's surprising how many similarities there are between other religions and Christianity. Sometimes this is used to attack Christianity and say it is not unique. Other times like you say, Christians are blamed. They can't have it both ways.

Obviously there are certain massive differences between Mesoamerican religion and Christian values, but it is surprising when the two do align. I agree with what you say about the priests. They went around destroying many of the manuscripts early on. Most of them wouldn't even be able to read the hieroglyphs anyway.

[jreuben]

Preponderance of evidence @larsenb for another model? Well, it surely exists for Ohio as the Land Bountiful. That is a fact and it's simple.

If you look at the evidence it is overwhelming and others who argue otherwise have some absurd marriage to false logic and false "evidence". That's just a fact and it's been clearly demonstrated time and again by those who care even one iota to read here.

Thank you @stormcloak for starting this fantastic thread (sans the riffraff) and making such a bold and true assertion. How truly important and how condemnable are those who do not set straight the fact that the NORTH AMERICAN "INDIAN" TRIBES of the Central and Eastern USA are INDEED 100% the TRUE Lamanites that must blossom and flourish!

[Subcomandante]

Preponderance of evidence @larsenb for another model? Well, it surely exists for Ohio as the Land Bountiful. That is a fact and it's simple.

If you look at the evidence it is overwhelming and others who argue otherwise have some absurd marriage to false logic and false "evidence". That's just a fact and it's been clearly demonstrated time and again by those who care even one iota to read here.

Thank you @stormcloak for starting this fantastic thread (sans the riffraff) and making such a bold and true assertion. How truly important and how condemnable are those who do not set straight the fact that the NORTH AMERICAN "INDIAN" TRIBES of the Central and Eastern USA are INDEED 100% the TRUE Lamanites that must blossom and flourish!

Ohio as the Land Bountiful? I would be VERY interested in seeing actual artifacts from there that would prove that assertion. But don't waste your time with unprovenanced artifacts, and other artifacts that are PROVEN FORGERIES and / or ANACHRONISTIC.

The Mesos (and the South American modelers for that matter) do not go as far as to assert "Bountiful MUST be here." Yet they work on different models that show that the areas were very heavily populated during the Book of Mormon times and the North American area was sparsely populated.

[Subcomandante]

https://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2019/ ... art-1.html

This guy absolutely DEVASTATES the Annotated Edition of the Book of Mormon as published by the Heartlanders.

[larsenb]

Preponderance of evidence @larsenb for another model? Well, it surely exists for Ohio as the Land Bountiful. That is a fact and it's simple.

If you look at the evidence it is overwhelming and others who argue otherwise have some absurd marriage to false logic and false "evidence". That's just a fact and it's been clearly demonstrated time and again by those who care even one iota to read here.

Thank you @stormcloak for starting this fantastic thread (sans the riffraff) and making such a bold and true assertion. How truly important and how condemnable are those who do not set straight the fact that the NORTH AMERICAN "INDIAN" TRIBES of the Central and Eastern USA are INDEED 100% the TRUE Lamanites that must blossom and flourish!

Well, you know. I'm just one of the riffraff, apparently; and imminently "condemnable" on top of it. Have fun with your particular Lamanite, etc., world view.

[larsenb]

https://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2019/ ... art-1.html

This guy absolutely DEVASTATES the Annotated Edition of the Book of Mormon as published by the Heartlanders.

Good old Ploni Almoni; aka Stephen Owen Smoot. He puts out good stuff.