Church is Robbing the Lamanites of their Birthright

[TrueFaith]

Meldrum is one guy with a "personal revelation" up against decades of research by dozens if not hundreds of real scholars on this subject including Hugh Nibley.

He's a show-boater. He goes around trying to make money on his DVDs. He's as phony as any used car salesman. Don't know how so many are fooled by this guy. He's your prototypical Utah MLM/Pyramid scammer.

Jeff Lindsay also makes a few good points too against him:

The Book of Mormon Archeology Foundation (BMAF.org) has a handy short list of major flaws with the recent "Heartland Model" for Book of Mormon geography. While most LDS scholars who grapple with details of Book of Mormon geography see Mesoamerica as the most likely or only reasonably candidate for the ancient New World setting of the Book of Mormon, several people have loudly touted an alternative model in which a portion of our present-day United States was where the Nephites dwelt. In that model, some of the Great Lakes represent the seas referred to in the Book of Mormon, and the great cities and temples of the Nephites and Lamanites are to be found in ancient mounds of dirt created by ancient Native Americans. While there are extensive resources at BMAF.org, the Maxwell Institute, and FAIRLDS.org that can be used to refute the Heartland Model, sometimes it's nice to boil numerous complex issues down to a dew bullet points. Here's a handy list from BMAF.org:


WHY THE GREAT LAKES/HEARTLAND MODEL DOES NOT QUALIFY
(1) no major river running South to North, Mississippi River flows North to South.
(2) no mountainous strip of wilderness that can hide Gadianton robbers, defend against Lamanites and serve as military dividing line for Captain Moroni (Alma 22:33-34,50:11).
(3) very little gold and silver east of the Mississippi.
(4) no evidence of cement buildings anywhere in eastern U.S. or Canada, archaeologists have determined that the vast majority of discovered archaeological sites dating to the time period of the Book of Mormon are located in Mesoamerica.
(5) no evidence that Adena and Hopewell co-existed for 250 years. We make a grave mistake in trying to piece together the historical puzzle of the Book of Mormon if we ignore the traditional history of Mesoamerica.
(6) Adena and Hopewell were not true civilizations, but were small, loosely knit, family related units with no evidence of a written language. The area in and around the Isthmus of Tehuantepec constituted the embryo for both the calendar system and the written language of the Americas. This fact alone virtually eliminates any other geographical area from being considered as “lands of the Book of Mormon."
(7) So-called DNA "Proofs" use unsubstantiated theories.
(8) Joseph Smith did not receive revelation where Book of Mormon lands were located, but his last statements about Book of Mormon geography point us to Mesoamerica (click here to see what Joseph Smith said about Mesoamerica).
(9) Columbus was directed to "the promised land," yet he never visited North America.

https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2013/06/ ... el-of.html

[TrueFaith]

I have a few friends of mine who buy the Heartland crap. Before 5 years ago they couldn't care less about BoM archeology. I'll tell you why.

They love the idea that it all happened in the good ol' USA. They are MAGA cultists through and through. "If it ain't made in 'Merica, it aint worth my time". That's literally how those people see the world. That's why they took an interest in Meldrum's BS. They love the cult of personality more than they love the truth, or research, or facts. They want to believe.

These are the kind of people who idolize Joseph Smith as an infallible human being. Look, I 100% believe he was a true prophet of God. (Heck I'm the only one around here who supports and believe he founded and practiced polygamy and his support of slavery and black segregation). But I know whereto draw the line. "A prophet is only a prophet when he is speaking as such" - Christofferson.

Joseph Smith was not speaking as a prophet when he was talking about the Zelph mound. He was sharing his amateur archeology opinion. Nothing wrong with that. However, taking it to mean some coded message like an Indiana Jones film, as Rod Meldrum did, is asinine and stupid to the max.

This is no different than saying Nelsons' command to get vaxxed was a call from God. It wasn't. It was a completely false medical opinion.

[jreuben]

Just remember, silence is not any kind of acknowledgement of anything. I've simply not had time to even read your messages on this topic @TrueFatih, let alone answer them. You have some incredibly ridiculous remarks from what I have seen from an extremely brief/quick glance (I've read just a line or two of your replies). I'm just so sad that you are so soaked in this topic - truly makes me sad.

Happy Thanksgiving nonetheless. We'll get you over this hump at some point!

[Alexander]

“Zelph's Mound (a Joseph Smith archeological opinion, NOT revelation)”

Lmao, you lost me there.

“That old Nephitish altar at tower hill in Adam Ondi Ahman.... yeah that was just Joseph’s archaeological opinion, not revelation.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/29

“Those thousands of stone and earth mounds along the Grand River and the rivers of the greater Mississippi River watershed aren’t Nephite/Lamanite”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/31

“Joseph ‘roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity’, is just Joseph’s opinion. It wasn’t revelatory at all.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... une-1834/3

[Subcomandante]

“Zelph's Mound (a Joseph Smith archeological opinion, NOT revelation)”

Lmao, you lost me there.

“That old Nephitish altar at tower hill in Adam Ondi Ahman.... yeah that was just Joseph’s archaeological opinion, not revelation.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/29

“Those thousands of stone and earth mounds along the Grand River and the rivers of the greater Mississippi River watershed aren’t Nephite/Lamanite”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/31

“Joseph ‘roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity’, is just Joseph’s opinion. It wasn’t revelatory at all.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... une-1834/3

Wasn't canonized, therefore is not revelation that is binding on the Saints.

The fact that much has been said about North America, Meso America, and South America not only by Joseph Smith but by many other leaders of the Church down to this day, means that one should not advocate for one theory at the expense of other theories, and less when the artifacts being used are specious in character, and proven ad nauseum to be specious in character.

[Alexander]

“Zelph's Mound (a Joseph Smith archeological opinion, NOT revelation)”

Lmao, you lost me there.

“That old Nephitish altar at tower hill in Adam Ondi Ahman.... yeah that was just Joseph’s archaeological opinion, not revelation.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/29

“Those thousands of stone and earth mounds along the Grand River and the rivers of the greater Mississippi River watershed aren’t Nephite/Lamanite”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... er-1838/31

“Joseph ‘roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity’, is just Joseph’s opinion. It wasn’t revelatory at all.”
http://www.josephsmithpapers.net/paper- ... une-1834/3

Wasn't canonized, therefore is not revelation that is binding on the Saints.

The fact that much has been said about North America, Meso America, and South America not only by Joseph Smith but by many other leaders of the Church down to this day, means that one should not advocate for one theory at the expense of other theories, and less when the artifacts being used are specious in character, and proven ad nauseum to be specious in character.

[EvanLM]

hey sub is it also a fallacy that a temple to the Lord should be built in Jackson Count Mo? or is that wrong, too. Will there be a gathering in Independence? or is that wrong, too. Perhaps all of the articles of faith are false?

sounds to me that you listen to the new world order propaganda that tells you to hate americans. hmmmmmmmmmm How can I be sure that what you say is even coming from God? satan likes contention so maybe he is in the mix here somewhere.

binding on the saints? So you only follow what is "cannonized?" sounds catholic

[Subcomandante]

hey sub is it also a fallacy that a temple to the Lord should be built in Jackson Count Mo? or is that wrong, too. Will there be a gathering in Independence? or is that wrong, too. Perhaps all of the articles of faith are false?

sounds to me that you listen to the new world order propaganda that tells you to hate americans. hmmmmmmmmmm How can I be sure that what you say is even coming from God? satan likes contention so maybe he is in the mix here somewhere.

binding on the saints? So you only follow what is "cannonized?" sounds catholic

What everyone should follow are the Standard Works as well as the words of the Prophets as revealed in a general setting.

A journal of a prophet does not count as a Standard Work.

The Scriptures state that the central stake will indeed be in Jackson County Missouri. The scriptures do NOT state, nor have the prophets revealed, exactly where all the events of the Book of Mormon happened, and the prophets appear not to have that important, save for the fact that it happened somewhere in the Americas.

And no, I don't hate Americans.

[EvanLM]

btw other records were kept by people on this continent and writers of the Bof M were told not to include them. Everything at this point is only a guess. So, when I hear someone give that "I feel it by the spirit" or "if it is cannonized" (whatever that means) or if I see it in a dream" or "if a prophet says it" or whatever I stop trusting the person who claims to know. I like all of the guesses, but it hasn't been revealed totally nor has the real history been given to us from God.

so, look out for frauds but don't get on the high horse of telling me that you only believe if certain circumstances occur or certain people say it or you get it from an angel. stop the pride and please have a good discussion.

[EvanLM]

again sub, why are you the true purveyor of what is written truth? Your rules make me have less and less confidence in your position. And it gets less interesting to follow this subject when you propose to tell me that I can't rely on certain sources. Makes me think you want to promote only your opinion which makes me stop listening. darn

[EvanLM]

It is so much more interesting to consider all facts.

[EvanLM]

well JS stated where certain events happened since he saw them as if they were real. Probably saw them by the same spirit that Nephi saw our day and claimed that he saw us. Then JS told his family and his mother related a lot of it to people. But they are all americans so maybe they just wanted some of it to be here. after all, the events were related by a man who saw God and his son in person. Maybe he had confused days.

[jreuben]

@Alexander, sorry I guess you and I have fundamentally different beliefs in brother Joseph and the restoration of the gospel. If you and the others' who have remarked can't get past that then you have *******************NO******************* testimony of brother Joseph and the restoration. We don't have any business having a discussion either if that is the case and if that's what anyone here feels. And we can agree to disagree and we'll just see who get's the greater light and truth after we meet on the other side of the veil.

EDIT: @Alexander, I'm sorry, I misread your post. I guess you were agreeing. I read it so quickly that I initially mistook your message as NOT believing in brother Joseph's remarks being actual revelations - now I see I was wrong and I want to apologize. I have had a very challenging day and still haven't had time to carefully read the last page or two in this thread.

I guess I feel what @stormcloak's quote conveys in this regard: viewtopic.php?p=1209140#p1209140

[Alexander]

@Alexander, sorry I guess you and I have fundamentally different beliefs in brother Joseph and the restoration of the gospel. If you and the others' who have remarked can't get past that then you have *******************NO******************* testimony of brother Joseph and the restoration. We don't have any business having a discussion either if that is the case and if that's what anyone here feels. And we can agree to disagree and we'll just see who get's the greater light and truth after we meet on the other side of the veil.

EDIT: @Alexander, I'm sorry, I misread your post. I guess you were agreeing. I read it so quickly that I initially mistook your message as NOT believing in brother Joseph's remarks being actual revelations - now I see I was wrong and I want to apologize. I have had a very challenging day and still haven't had time to carefully read the last page or two in this thread.

I guess I feel what @stormcloak's quote conveys in this regard: viewtopic.php?p=1209140#p1209140

Yeah, I was poking at TrueFaith and Subcommandante who seem to think Joseph's comments I listed aren't revelatory or actual truth, that it was only Joseph's "archeological opinion" (whatever that means), because "muh canon".

I believe Joseph when he talked about the mounds of North America being Nephite/Lamanite. They are proof of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[1775peasant]

I have a few friends of mine who buy the Heartland crap. Before 5 years ago they couldn't care less about BoM archeology. I'll tell you why.

They love the idea that it all happened in the good ol' USA. They are MAGA cultists through and through. "If it ain't made in 'Merica, it aint worth my time". That's literally how those people see the world. That's why they took an interest in Meldrum's BS. They love the cult of personality more than they love the truth, or research, or facts. They want to believe.

These are the kind of people who idolize Joseph Smith as an infallible human being. Look, I 100% believe he was a true prophet of God. (Heck I'm the only one around here who supports and believe he founded and practiced polygamy and his support of slavery and black segregation). But I know whereto draw the line. "A prophet is only a prophet when he is speaking as such" - Christofferson.

Joseph Smith was not speaking as a prophet when he was talking about the Zelph mound. He was sharing his amateur archeology opinion. Nothing wrong with that. However, taking it to mean some coded message like an Indiana Jones film, as Rod Meldrum did, is asinine and stupid to the max.

This is no different than saying Nelsons' command to get vaxxed was a call from God. It wasn't. It was a completely false medical opinion.

u'd think, that folks would recognize that using a bulldozer for a supposed "archaeological dig" as May did in 2015, to which they now have removed all pictures of that hoax......would cause some to ponder? but the list for May & Meldrum's inexcusable errors & flat out falsehoods is never ending....

[Subcomandante]

I have a few friends of mine who buy the Heartland crap. Before 5 years ago they couldn't care less about BoM archeology. I'll tell you why.

They love the idea that it all happened in the good ol' USA. They are MAGA cultists through and through. "If it ain't made in 'Merica, it aint worth my time". That's literally how those people see the world. That's why they took an interest in Meldrum's BS. They love the cult of personality more than they love the truth, or research, or facts. They want to believe.

These are the kind of people who idolize Joseph Smith as an infallible human being. Look, I 100% believe he was a true prophet of God. (Heck I'm the only one around here who supports and believe he founded and practiced polygamy and his support of slavery and black segregation). But I know whereto draw the line. "A prophet is only a prophet when he is speaking as such" - Christofferson.

Joseph Smith was not speaking as a prophet when he was talking about the Zelph mound. He was sharing his amateur archeology opinion. Nothing wrong with that. However, taking it to mean some coded message like an Indiana Jones film, as Rod Meldrum did, is asinine and stupid to the max.

This is no different than saying Nelsons' command to get vaxxed was a call from God. It wasn't. It was a completely false medical opinion.

u'd think, that folks would recognize that using a bulldozer for a supposed "archaeological dig" as May did in 2015, to which they now have removed all pictures of that hoax......would cause some to ponder? but the list for May & Meldrum's inexcusable errors & flat out falsehoods is never ending....

You would think, but they keep on chugging along like nobodys' biz.

[larsenb]

A scholar that relies on provably false artifacts is a charlatan. And don't think it is either Meso or Heartland. There's plenty of evidence in the Scriptures that it started a lot further south.

This, this, and this, are irrefutable proof. You can gaslight and mock all you want but you cannot make those three things go away.

I personally find hyperlinks put out as arguments for anything, very problematic and unsatisfying. Why?

First link, what are you referring to that JS said in his letter to Emma? How many pages do I have to wade through and then guess as to what you are referring to?

Second link, you ignore the info in the first paragraph on Wikipedia article on Haplogroup X (mtDNA), that places its occurrence in these locations in a time frame of 14,000 to 30,000 years BP. I.e., you accept the location determined by the DNA research, but you ignore the science that dates these locations. Meldrum does the same thing, as has been pointed out by several LDS geneticists.

Third link, all this affirms is that the drumlin in which Moroni buried his abridgement, became known as The Hill Cumorah, nothing more.

[larsenb]

. . . . .
Joseph Smith explicitly told us that the Lamanites lived in the Heartland of America: https://bookofmormonevidence.org/joseph ... geography/

He literally said so and told the missionaries to preach to the Lamanites, referring to those that lived in what is now the Midwest. He didn't tell them to go to Mexico or South America. This certainly wasn't beyond his capability, as he commanded many Elders to travel to England and Europe to preach the Gospel. He didn't command them to preach there because he knew where the Lamanites lived.

The obvious problem with this reasoning is that Joseph was only referring to the Lamanites in this particular area. To make your claim stick, you would have to show where JS also said something like: "This is the only place you will find Lamanites" or "Lamanites are not present in any other location in either North or South America or in the southern portion of North America, AKA Central America or Mesoamerican. Can you find such statements? Nope.

[larsenb]

Those who keep pushing mesoamerica are driving members from the church and helping to ensure that investigators who happen to research the DNA, lose interest

Not at all. Most people who become or are members of the Church have spiritual witnesses to the truth of the Book, not dependent on where it took place.

Most Mesoamerican theorists I know about are evidenced base, it is not a matter of their religious faith. If you could possibly show that the geographic-related statements in the BofM fit the areas of the US as claimed by heartlanders, they would move over to that theory in droves. But you can't, only by extreme scripture twisting and mental gymnasiics.

[larsenb]

btw DNA was made up. . .it doesn't exist . . .it was made up and RNA was and the lying scientists cannot use it to create or change us because it is not real. chromosomes are real but when scientist could go no further to show how smart they were, they simply made up a lie and have been perpetuating it mostly on students for years. The labs are fake the ancestry.com mouth tests are fake. . .sorry, sometimes I hate the truth, too

Good grief. I guess I'll have to throw out all the personal experiences and discoveries recounted by Crick and Watson in their book The Double Helix, I read decades ago.

[larsenb]

Hispanic is on the census as a choice of race along with 14 other so american races. True story. Then there is the race of white, not of hispanic origin . . . there is african american. . . black. . . anyway you figure it out and then send a letter of correction to gov census

It's become a generic label, but ignores the multitude of Indian tribes, oops, Native American tribes, found throughout the whole region, many of them still speaking their original languages.

[Subcomandante]

btw DNA was made up. . .it doesn't exist . . .it was made up and RNA was and the lying scientists cannot use it to create or change us because it is not real. chromosomes are real but when scientist could go no further to show how smart they were, they simply made up a lie and have been perpetuating it mostly on students for years. The labs are fake the ancestry.com mouth tests are fake. . .sorry, sometimes I hate the truth, too

Good grief. I guess I'll have to throw out all the personal experiences and discoveries recounted by Crick and Watson in their book The Double Helix, I read decades ago.

Heartlander: DNA evidence shows that the Algonquin people are the same DNA as the Hebrews!

Also Heartlander: DNA doesn't exist!

If there was a meme for this...

[larsenb]

. . . . . Please find those quotes for me, because I cannot. I'm only aware of that one statement from the Times & Seasons which was actually authored by William Smith and Benjamin Winchester. If you know of another statement from Joseph on this matter, I'd be most interested for you to bring it to my attention. . . . .

Not really. Dr. John Lund did an exhaustive study showing the high probability that Joseph authored the two 1842 Times and Seasons editorials that mentioned Zarahemla and the narrow neck of land being in the region of Guatemala. I've yet to see any rebuttal of Lund's work that has any substance or credibility.

This whole topic surfaces like clock-work on LDSFF, and has been hashed over endlessly.

[larsenb]

Putting together a handy chart


Heartland
DNA
Proximity to hill Cumorah
Joseph Smith letters
metal ore mines
Mounds
Metal swords, breastplates and headplates
Linguistics
Mounds and artifacts that match Jewish iconography


MesoAmerica
Volcanoes
climate
population
Big buildings but no evidence of metalworking.

Most of that first list doesn't even matter. Seriously what do mounds have to do with the Book of Mormon at all?

Joseph Smith's opinion on the matter is also irrelevant. He was a prophet, not an archeologist. This just prove the Book of Mormon authentic because he didn't have full understanding what the book was even proving.

There are literally mountains of metal workings in Meso and South America. Google it. Gold-made objects have been found all over the place there. The word "steel" only exists in the Book of Mormon up until the book of Jarom, after that only "precious metals" are described. If you say that you're finding tons of metal weapons in North America, you're either stumbling upon Jaredite stuff, or a completely different group of people altogether, because Book of Mormon wars were primarily not fought with metal weapons, post Jarom.

As I already stated, the proximity to the "Hill Cumorah" is meaningless. This hill as the same location as Mormon buried the plates was never named or referenced in the Book of Mormon. It was only stated that Moroni took the plates out of the Hill Cumorah. He never said where he buried them.

Here's the real list.

Heartland
Zion's Camp march
Zelph's Mound (a Joseph Smith archeological opinion, NOT revelation)
Total misunderstanding of the "Hill Cumorah"
The evidence was destroyed.
Rod Meldrum's marketing and personal revelations.

MesoAmerica
True Narrow Neck
Land of Desolation to the North
Tons of metal objects, lots of mines
Massive cities proven to have held millions of people
Highways
Mass farming
Evidence of periodic mass balkanization and genocidal war events.
Warm weather (no snow or cold season described)
Highland to the south.
Multiple rivers flowing from south to north.
Legends of a white God.
The authenticated story of "Fire is Born" matching the end of the Book of Mormon timeline.

The Heartland model is a very new theory. Rod Meldrum is an amateur with a culinary background who thinks he knows better than decades of Book of Mormon research from real scholars.

His theories came about because of Prophet worship of Joseph Smith, which is no different than the LDS who idolize Nelson today for ridiculous non-gospel related inspiration (like vaccines). Meldrum's entire basis was formulated around Joseph Smith's Zions Camp trip. He conjectured the entire thing to have some kind of deep meaning that he came up with himself that the path the camp followed was on the border of the Nephite civilization. I'm not joking.

His entire argument is based on an appeal to personal revelation. He is NO DIFFERENT from other LDS quacks and false prophets like Julie Rowe who think they can get revelation for everyone else. I sat and listened to his whole presentation in the Saint George Tabernacle years ago. He had yet to build up the other nonsense around his revelation to legitimize it. The main thrust of his argument was, "God revealed this to me, so believe it."

Here is a longer list of Meldrum's problems:

FAIR and other researchers have noted, among others, the following problems:
A. Appeals to revelation and attacks on other members
1. Meldrum uses appeals to personal revelation regarding his theory.
2. Meldrum attacks LDS scholars who do not agree with his theory, claims they “disdain and disparage” Joseph Smith, and accuses them of helping anti-Mormons.
3. Meldrum attacks BYU for its science curriculum.
4. Meldrum uses extensive testimonials that demonstrate that many in his audience understand that he is claiming revelation and certainty regarding his model.
5. Meldrum is forbidden to use Church facilities to hold or advertise his events.
6. Meldrum frequently relies on paranoia or conspiracy theories to explain why his model has not been accepted. This includes attacks on BYU, LDS scholars, LDS who offer a different model, the National Science Foundation, the National Association of Science, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, DNA researchers on mutation rates and dating haplotype X2a, Elder James E. Talmage and others who declared the Michigan relics to be forgeries, those who develop computer models, and North American archaeologists who find no evidence of metallurgy north of Mexico (see full text description of “Iron Age America” sold here). Despite making all his income from marketing his theory, Meldrum accuses those who disagree with having financial motives behind their disagreement, without admitting that the same might apply to him.

B. False and incomplete claims about Joseph Smith’s writings and attitude toward a variety of geographies
7. The Heartland Model falsely claims Joseph Smith had a revelation about Book of Mormon geography. Leaders of the Church have repeatedly taught that there is no revealed Book of Mormon geography.
8. The Heartland Model falsely claims that letters written by Joseph Smith in which he expressed interest in a non-North American model were not written by Joseph.
9. The Heartland Model falsely claims that Joseph Smith was in hiding and unable to oversee Church publications when reviews favorable to a non-North American model were published.
10. The Heartland Model claims that Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was on “this continent,” meaning North America. But, Joseph Smith and others often talked about the whole western hemisphere as a continent.

C. Use of forgeries and misrepresentation
11. The Heartland Model appeals to known forgeries to support his model. The Heartland Model claims that LDS scientists (including James E. Talmage) who identified the forgeries are biased “pseudoscientists.”
12. Meldrum helped produce another DVD about early North American history in which scientists interviewed claimed that their remarks had been edited and taken out of context to make it appear as if they supported claims which they do not.
13. The basic Heartland Model was originally proposed and later rejected by author Ed Goble, whose original work is nether recognized or attributed to by authors May and Meldrum who have claimed the model as their own.

D. DNA errors
The Heartland Model gets virtually everything about DNA wrong. Brigham Young University’s FARMS Review has a detailed discussion here. Some highlights:
14. Believing LDS scholars with expertise in DNA universally reject the Heartland Model.
15. The Heartland Model accuses LDS scholars and BYU professors of betraying members and the gospel because they do not accept his model.
16. LDS geneticists have overwhelmingly concluded that Lehi’s DNA signature is very unlikely to be detected, contrary to what the Heartland Model expects.
17. The Heartland Model ignores that if Lehi has any modern day descendants, then all modern day Amerindians are almost certainly his descendants. We cannot, genetically, confine Lehi’s descendants to a small group—the science just doesn’t work that way.
18. The Heartland Model’s reading of the X2a haplotype is wrong. Furthermore, he ignores that there are no examples of X2a in the Old World.
19. The Heartland Model claims that a desire to keep “evolutionary biology” and “old earth” dating leads scientists or some LDS members to distort the data to produce old date for X2a. He appeals to conspiracy theories to explain why non-LDS and LDS scientists do not accept his model.
20. The Heartland Model (1) misrepresents the papers cited for dating X2a, many of which are also out of date; and (2) ignores that problems with the model can be demonstrated in historical time, using known, modern human populations, with no appeal at all to evolutionary biology. It is true that evolutionary biology does not help the Heartland Model, but the model has failed long before evolution arguments are even raised. If one accepts evolution, then the Heartland Model has even bigger problems. If one does not, the model still fails based on objective, real-world tests in known populations.

E. Geography problems
The Heartland Model’s geography does not match the Book of Mormon text. A few examples are included below, and details on each are available here:
21. Hagoth cannot, as is claimed, navigate from the Great Lakes to the ocean.
22. The Mississippi River flows north to south; the Sidon flows south to north.
23. The Sidon should empty into the “seas,” which are the Great Lakes in the Heartland Model. The Mississippi flows into the Gulf of Mexico, far away from these “seas.”
24. The confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers as the "head" of the river Sidon does not work, because this confluence is not in an area identified by the Book of Mormon as a "narrow strip of wilderness."
25. The Heartland Model uses the Ohio River as the geographic feature separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, while the Book of Mormon indicates that the separating feature was a narrow strip of wilderness.
26. The Heartland Model has the land Bountiful southeast of Zarahemla; the Book of Mormon has it northward. (A map demonstrating these claims is available here, about a third of the way through.)
27. The Heartland Model elsewhere claims that Bountiful is directly north of the land of Nephi; in the Book of Mormon, Zarahemla is directly north of the land of Nephi.
28. The Heartland Model’s Land of Nephi does not stretch from east to west sea, as it would need to in order to match the Book of Mormon text.
29. The Book of Mormon has the sea west to the west of the Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful, but the Heartland Model has it east of Zarahemla and north of Bountiful.
30. The land of first inheritance should be on the west sea, west from the land of Nephi. The Heartland Model places it south of the land of Nephi, on the Gulf of Mexico that is not even one of the “seas” in his model.
31. Heartland Model requires Limhi’s rescue party to travel almost 1700 miles in error (maps here, about half way down).
32. Heartland Model misrepresents other members’ work, to make his seem more plausible.
33. Heartland Model buffalo evidence gets almost everything wrong.
34. John Sorenson (emeritus professor of anthropology, BYU) offers his own extensive list of cultural and geographical problems that make the model unworkable.

F. The Heartland Model misreads scripture and omits quotes from LDS leaders that disagree with his model. (An excellent FARMS Review article is here.)

35. Heartland Model ignores many scriptural uses of the term “land of promise” referring to a broader area than Missouri. At least ten LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) applied the term to all of North and South America, not just Missouri.
36. Heartland Model ignores Book of Mormon passages that place elements of the promised land outside the present-day (or Joseph’s day) United States—including the visit of Christopher Columbus, who never entered the modern day United States: his explorations were restricted to the Caribbean and Central America (he never traveled even as far north as Mexico).
37. Heartland Model uses a city founded by Mormons near Nauvoo (named “Zarahemla) to locate the Nephite city of Zarahemla. The model ignores that it was settlers who started calling it Zarahemla first, not scripture or Joseph Smith. The lines about Zarahemla were added later, for historical clarity, by an editor when the revelation was published.
38. Likewise, a city called “Manti” was ascribed to the prophet by later editors, but it was not in the original text.
39. Heartland Model’s confused discussion of “this land” distorts the Book of Mormon text.


G. Cultural problems
The Heartland Model uses a number of “parallels” that either exist in many geographical models, or misunderstands elements in the Book of Mormon text that don’t match his model.

40. Items in many models: armor, weapons, defensive works, cities, presence of dead bodies, bodies of water.
41. Heartland Model does not match the known archaeology of the Hopewell area that he wishes to make into the Nephites.
42. The Heartland Model’s seasonal and climate claims have problems; some Book of Mormon elements (e.g., extreme heat, rather than snow, in and end-of-the year battle) do not match his proposed geography.
43. The Heartland Model also misunderstands the evidence about population sizes and growth.
44. The Heartland Model misrepresents and misunderstands the issue of stone cities versus wood cities, and burning “stone” cities.
45. The Heartland Model’s list of “hits” is, in fact, either misses, or hits that are also hits in other models.

http://www.bmaf.org/node/359

This man is a deceiver. I've noticed there are quite a few people here on LDSFF who frequently fall for these latter day clowns. A lot of people here pining for Davidic Servants and other such idols they can cling to. Not sure why so many are so susceptible to this kind of deception here, just pointing it out.

BMAF knocks it out of the park in this comparative compilation and how the HLM gets it dead wrong.

[stormcloak]

Meldrum is a quack. I've listened to his arguments firsthand. He's a Mormon pyramid scammer selling a product. You've signed up for a false prophet's bumblings.

You want to know what's funny? I've actually barely listened to Rod Meldrum's lectures or videos. I simply researched the data he presented and found it both plausible and logical. I've prayed about it and the Holy Ghost has wrought the witness upon my own heart. I have close ties to the areas which are talked about as the locations of the Book of Mormon. While traveling to various locations and doing my own research on the subject, the Spirit has wrought witness to my heart that the Savior Jesus Christ walked those grounds and visited the Nephites and Lamanites who lived there. I am personally related to those people whom He visited.

You cannot take this testimony from my heart simply because you think Rod Meldrum is a quack. I don't care WHO the messenger is—I care about WHAT their message is. If a hopelessly propagandized, triple-vaccinated Joe Biden voter walked up to me and said, "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God"—I would be forced to agree with him on that point, although I would disagree with him about many other things.

I personally know nothing of Rod Meldrum aside from his online writings about the location of the Book of Mormon. I frankly don't care whether Rod Meldrum taught it, Warren Jeffs, or the Wizard of Oz. This idea was present in my mind long before I ever heard the name of Rod Meldrum, mind you, so if you want to call the Holy Spirit my "false prophet," then go right ahead and be my guest.

I'm dismayed and disappointed at your conduct in this thread. You've gone out of your way to mock and ridicule my testimony publicly, instead of adhering to a cool public debate with facts and reason. I don't mind debating, but when you descend to crude insults like claiming that I'm following a "quack" and comparing my post with "quackery" and "conspiracy theories," you've gone way beyond my tolerance or patience.

You yourself have advocated some seemingly outlandish things on this forum, including claiming to be visited by angels or spirits of the dead, as well as having unorthodox views about history. I haven't ridiculed you about any of those things (and I will not). I've tried to be helpful and open-minded on those threads where you discussed such topics, but now you've gone out of your way to mock and ridicule my testimony, simply because you so vehemently detest the nature of my message. Is this not exactly what you're accusing others of? Your hypocritical conduct and double-standards on this thread are mind-boggling.

Your arguments are ridiculous.

As you stated previously: "Yeah, that's what people say when their theories are debunked."

Of course they built with wood more than stone or cement. They lived in the middle of a jungle. We only have remnants of their stone structures.

Did Joseph Smith ever say they lived in a jungle? Did the Book of Mormon ever say it took place in a jungle? Hmmm, don't remember reading that one anywhere... (FYI, picture books and paintings do not count as scripture)

Americans build more out of wood than stone or cement too, doesn't mean we have plenty of stone and cement structures as well.

So? This comparison doesn't even make sense. The Book of Mormon is very specific about what they built with. Please read my previous post for more extensive details on this: viewtopic.php?p=1209634#p1209634

They were calling the land northward, "Desolation" all the way through Mormon chapter 4, 400 years after the Jaredite Plates were found. They called it that because this land stayed Desolate. Trees never grew here.

And as I pointed out previously, there are places near Michigan and the northern United States which also fit that profile. You're free to look back at my post here: viewtopic.php?p=1209636#p1209636 - Clearly, this is the most logical setting because Jaredite bones were discovered in Ohio.

You know what really makes no sense to me? The Book of Mormon talks a whole lot more about the Land Bountiful than it does about the Land Desolation, and yet you fixate upon the supposed logical issues with the Land Desolation being in North America. Well, how about the logical fallacies of the Land Bountiful being in Mexico?! The Heartland of America is filled with EXTREMELY lush and bountiful regions that sustain life to an incredible level, especially around the foothills of the Appalachian mountains. Nothing like this compares down in Mesoamerica. You have to go all the way down to South America to find comparable climates with which to bolster your argument—but that is refuted by the word of Joseph Smith, who said that the Nephites and Lamanites lived in areas such as Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. The testimony of the translator of the Book is not on your side!

Calling the most timber rich region on the western hemisphere, "Desolation" for 400 years is simply idiocy and completely unbelievable. This is quackery.

Really? Then why were SO MANY buildings constructed from wood in the Book of Mormon? They needed a lot of timber for all those burnable buildings and such...

To descend to your level of insults, I think it's "lunacy" and "quackery" to ignore the mountains of evidence in statements from Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, James E. Talmage, and others which clearly place the Book of Mormon in the United States of America. Oliver Cowdery wrote letters about this. Joseph explicitly said it during the Zion's Camp march. Brigham Young spoke very clearly about the location of the Hill Cumorah and the artifacts inside, as related to him by Oliver Cowdery. James E. Talmage also wrote in his diary that he believed the American Indian Tribes in the Midwest were indeed the Lamanites, and said that their history matched up with the Book of Mormon. Are these people all "quacks" as well? Or will you stick your head in the sand and pretend these statements were never made?

There is no "narrow neck of land" between two "SEAS" in the Heartland. The Great Lakes are Lakes and a civilization spanning 1000 years would know the difference. This Niagara argument is just as idiotic as the one above. Lunacy.

I think there is a remarkably convincing argument in the previous video I linked to which shows where the narrow neck of land is:

Bottom line is this: There is NO EVIDENCE OF A GRAND ANCIENT CIVILIZATION in the American Heartland.

Yes, there is! I've personally seen many mounds and evidences of a grand ancient civilization in the American Heartland. There are artifacts and evidences which abound! You apparently have refused to look at any of the evidence I've presented you thus far, thus becoming a victim of the exact kind of fallacious thinking you've accused me of.

We DO have powerful evidence of one in central America from Lidar data. Massive road systems, foundations for tens of thousands of buildings, advanced irrigation, and written language on stone structures. NOTHING of the sort had been found in the US heartland.

No one is denying that there is indeed much civilization in South and Central America, but none of that correlates to the Book of Mormon. There's also lots of evidence of Viking and Welsh settlement and civilization in America before Columbus arrived. That doesn't correlate with the Book of Mormon either. In other words, there were MANY groups of people who visited the Americas, not just the descendants of Lehi. Those people in South America were not originally of Lamanite stock, but from other groups of migrants from Asia. As pointed out previously by @jreuben, the works of David Hatcher Childress in this regard are quite enlightening.

You can speculate all you want, but until you have a shred of civilizational evidence in comparison to Mezoamerica, you just have hot air.

I have a lot more than hot air. I have the Holy Ghost and the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith to confirm my testimony as well. You can call that "hot air" all you like, but all I have to say is that I can with sincerity rejoice in the words of the Lord to Moroni:

Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness.

(Ether 12:26)