Church is Robbing the Lamanites of their Birthright

[Subcomandante]

BTW, I have been to the presentations for both the heartland model and the scholars at BYU who support the Mesoamerican model.

Those Mesoamerican scholars don't believe that this is the narrow neck of land.



Those scholars say that this is the narrow neck of land which is even smaller than the neck between lake Eerie and Lake Ontario.

This is something which Del on his NephiCode blog makes fun of both the Heartland and the Mesoamerican settings of the Book of Mormon.

The only plausible NNOL in a Mesoamerican setting is the isthmus of Tehuantepec. Which indeed becomes a narrow neck of land during the rainy season (not that the ocean swallows up the area north of the Sierra Madre, but the constant rains make that land virtually impassible during the rainy season.

I'm open to the theory that this may be the real narrow neck of land. This is at least far more plausible than the ridiculous Niagara theory.

I cannot accept that the Nephites saw two lakes (as big as they were) as a long term solution for restricting the Lamanites from invading their land and surrounding them.

Another requirement for the Nephites civilization is a prominent river that flows from south to north near Zarahemla. There isn't one in North America big enough to qualify where they allege Zarahemla was (Illinois), but there is in Mezoamerica.

There are TWO rivers in Mesoamerica, of a very similar type, that run south to north. Both of their springs are quite close to each other.

This is important because there was an expedition made by some of the followers of King Limhi to find Zarahemla and they ended up in Jaredite territory, ostensibly because they followed the wrong river.

[Subcomandante]

None of us can even accurately determine what the geography was pre 3 Nephi 8 vs Post 3 Nephi 8.

There are even clues in that:
* Earthquakes. It doesn't have to be a seismically active zone, but it would be more likely to be in one. Look for evidence of major earthquakes.
* Darkness and fire - possible reference to volcanic eruptions although it is not clear cut.
* Storms - occur everywhere but are more common in some places than others.
* Cities under the sea (or at least a great lake)

What best fits everything described there is a massive volcanic eruption but I am not sure this would help anything. As an example, if the Yellowstone Caldera were to go off right now, it would almost certainly be felt equally in both the northeastern US and central America.

There were a bunch of volcanoes that went off in Central America and northern South America at times estimated to have happened around the time of Christ. Not like the current eruption in La Palma. I'm talking a Pinatubo type eruption.

[jreuben]

Thank you @markharr and @stormcloak and others. Such great points that are lost on those who love and thirst after the Koolaid and are either inadvertently or advertently being used as tools to destroy simple truth as was presented originally. Satan rejoices in their efforts since it does in fact subvert that which would be most pure and delightful as well as twisting the way of the Lord. Make no mistake, just as John came to make straight the way of the Lord, satan and lucifer send forth those that will bastardize and twist up that way.

Most definitely some unimpeachable shares and research herein by both of you. Again, thank you for this. Some of these are also my thoughts and results of research (there is SO much!!!), but I lack time to really pull it all together in a perhaps vain hope that some of these here who seem should have so much potential just have such a hard time with these points. It really saddens my heart; heat breaking to see such brazen rejection of clear truth and fact in this thread and perhaps the most sad to know that they are drinking literal damnation unto their souls in this rejection of further light and truth. Such expansive clarity. There is so much that this knowledge could add to their lives and the important aspects of their testimonies.

Indeed it is truly remarkable and lovely to see the things that are clear about Ohio, southern Ohio and the Appalachia region. So much has been systematically destroyed and lost (example: look at the giants' remains that were destroyed; I have seen in other discussion these could perhaps have been the Jaredites and it makes sense!) in the colonization effort, but of course that was foretold. To think and ponder on how that central/southern Ohio appears to be where Jesus visited and is quite literally the land bountiful--- how it brings so much joy and the Spirit speaks to you when you recognize this! I know of no other region in the WORLD that is more beautiful AND BOUNTIFUL than Appalachia. It springs forth plant and all manner of life in way that is really not similar any place else on earth. It is arguably more fruitful than the rain forests given its more temperate climate and gentler wildlife as well as several other aspects that invite sustainable living. Colonization, again, has much damaged this bounty, but it is still clearly evident to anyone that simply looks or visits that region.

I always wondered why the leadership of the church didn't push the saints to move back out to the east and to reclaim what was rightly theirs, including the Book of Mormon lands, following successful colonization of Utah, but after the loss of revelation and the deep apostasy that the church has now had since the late 1800s, one can easily see that pride, fear, selfish desires and many other things drive the ephraimites even to this time. I suppose it is good since Isaiah (and especially 28) offers a clear demarcation of the Salt Lake Valley that region/valley and their evil.

From the above and other information it clearly appears that the capitol city of Chalahgawtha (perhaps meaning "principal city" in the older tongue; modern alliteration Chi-llo-co-the) is extremely special and sacred. I found it truly remarkable that an ancient highway terminus is located at Sugar Loaf Mountain and with temples located round about and by the river of that area. That is especially touching. Clearly it was an exceptionally sacred and very special place - likely the temple in the Land Bountiful where Jesus visited His people!

The Spirit whispers such power and joy to me as I study this topic. THANK YOU!

[TrueFaith]

BTW, I have been to the presentations for both the heartland model and the scholars at BYU who support the Mesoamerican model.

Those Mesoamerican scholars don't believe that this is the narrow neck of land.



Those scholars say that this is the narrow neck of land which is even smaller than the neck between lake Eerie and Lake Ontario.

This is something which Del on his NephiCode blog makes fun of both the Heartland and the Mesoamerican settings of the Book of Mormon.

The only plausible NNOL in a Mesoamerican setting is the isthmus of Tehuantepec. Which indeed becomes a narrow neck of land during the rainy season (not that the ocean swallows up the area north of the Sierra Madre, but the constant rains make that land virtually impassible during the rainy season.

I'm open to the theory that this may be the real narrow neck of land. This is at least far more plausible than the ridiculous Niagara theory.

I cannot accept that the Nephites saw two lakes (as big as they were) as a long term solution for restricting the Lamanites from invading their land and surrounding them.

Another requirement for the Nephites civilization is a prominent river that flows from south to north near Zarahemla. There isn't one in North America big enough to qualify where they allege Zarahemla was (Illinois), but there is in Mezoamerica.

There are TWO rivers in Mesoamerica, of a very similar type, that run south to north. Both of their springs are quite close to each other.

This is important because there was an expedition made by some of the followers of King Limhi to find Zarahemla and they ended up in Jaredite territory, ostensibly because they followed the wrong river.

Correct. This is because the highlands are to the south.

This is also a key. In every single case, the Lamanites come "down" from their land and the Nephites "go up" to the Lamanites. More proof of the Book of Mormon divinity. Why would Joseph Smith put this subtlety in the Book of Mormon and be consistent every time?

Where are the highlands exclusive to the mid-west United States? The Appalachians run all the way to Nova Scotia. The Book of Mormon says that the Nephites were exclusively north of the Lamanites. Niagara is south and west of half of the Appalachians.

[Niyr]

You say what you feel is a fact, then proceed to explain that other's have a different opinion. You are making my point for me over and over again.

More pissing contest...

I am not "making yout point", you were talking in absolutes, saying that there were no facts. I pointed out that there are facts that can be established... whatever one's viewpoint on this is.

Which part of this are you disputing as fact:

* That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?
* That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?
* That Moroni said that they were there?

Well?

Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book.

"That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?'' That question itself is not appropriate for BOM geography disputes without additional context.

"That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?" Yes, Joseph claimed that. The claim can still be disputed with differing opinions. No one has direct evidence that he did indeed find the plates or anything there.
These first two questions should be asked as, "Are there multiple Hill Cumorahs and were the plates and other artifacts moved from another area to NY?" And that question would still be debated with multiple different opinions.

"That Moroni said that they were there?" This is a matter of opinion.

"Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book." There you go making my point for me again.

[TrueFaith]

Thank you @markharr and @stormcloak and others. Such great points that are lost on those who love and thirst after the Koolaid and are either inadvertently or advertently being used as tools to destroy simple truth as was presented originally. Satan rejoices in their efforts since it does in fact subvert that which would be most pure and delightful as well as twisting the way of the Lord. Make no mistake, just as John came to make straight the way of the Lord, satan and lucifer send forth those that will bastardize and twist up that way.

Most definitely some unimpeachable shares and research herein by both of you. Again, thank you for this. Some of these are also my thoughts and results of research (there is SO much!!!), but I lack time to really pull it all together in a perhaps vain hope that some of these here who seem should have so much potential just have such a hard time with these points. It really saddens my heart; heat breaking to see such brazen rejection of clear truth and fact in this thread and perhaps the most sad to know that they are drinking literal damnation unto their souls in this rejection of further light and truth. Such expansive clarity. There is so much that this knowledge could add to their lives and the important aspects of their testimonies.

Indeed it is truly remarkable and lovely to see the things that are clear about Ohio, southern Ohio and the Appalachia region. So much has been systematically destroyed and lost (example: look at the giants' remains that were destroyed; I have seen in other discussion these could perhaps have been the Jaredites and it makes sense!) in the colonization effort, but of course that was foretold. To think and ponder on how that central/southern Ohio appears to be where Jesus visited and is quite literally the land bountiful--- how it brings so much joy and the Spirit speaks to you when you recognize this! I know of no other region in the WORLD that is more beautiful AND BOUNTIFUL than Appalachia. It springs forth plant and all manner of life in way that is really not similar any place else on earth. It is arguably more fruitful than the rain forests given its more temperate climate and gentler wildlife as well as several other aspects that invite sustainable living. Colonization, again, has much damaged this bounty, but it is still clearly evident to anyone that simply looks or visits that region.

I always wondered why the leadership of the church didn't push the saints to move back out to the east and to reclaim what was rightly theirs, including the Book of Mormon lands, following successful colonization of Utah, but after the loss of revelation and the deep apostasy that the church has now had since the late 1800s, one can easily see that pride, fear, selfish desires and many other things drive the ephraimites even to this time. I suppose it is good since Isaiah (and especially 28) offers a clear demarcation of the Salt Lake Valley that region/valley and their evil.

From the above and other information it clearly appears that the capitol city of Chalahgawtha (perhaps meaning "principal city" in the older tongue; modern alliteration Chi-llo-co-the) is extremely special and sacred. I found it truly remarkable that an ancient highway terminus is located at Sugar Loaf Mountain and with temples located round about and by the river of that area. That is especially touching. Clearly it was an exceptionally sacred and very special place - likely the temple in the Land Bountiful where Jesus visited His people!

The Spirit whispers such power and joy to me as I study this topic. THANK YOU!

"So much has been systematically destroyed and lost (example: look at the giants' remains that were destroyed; I have seen in other discussion these could perhaps have been the Jaredites and it makes sense!) in the colonization effort, but of course that was foretold."

This is the heart of "evidence" for the Heartlander theorists: it was destroyed so there is none.

It's the same argument that UFO and Holocaust Conspiracy Theorists use: "Hitler destroyed the gas chambers and all the documents, that's why they don't exist!"

[Subcomandante]

The Book of Mormon would indicate in the text itself that there are two Cumorahs.

[jreuben]

@subcomo you need to remember that most, if not all forms of, dating is simply wrong. You can search about and find topics on this that demonstrate so much of the foundational premises upon which all major dating methods and mechanisms are dated are built upon assumptions that are NOT actually provable. This can be a jarring experience since we cannot be sure of statements such as the one you assert with the degree of sureness that was once thought for the short period of time that geology and archeology have existed. Most of science has been twisted and manipulated to create unrighteous and downright false narratives. There are many reasons and motives that can be discussed on this topic, but have been mentioned here and there elsewhere in the forum. I realize that you are yourself not open to much discussion on this topic, but I have found these things to be true and helpful in helping me to further my personal light and truth and to come truly closer to the Lord.

[TrueFaith]

You say what you feel is a fact, then proceed to explain that other's have a different opinion. You are making my point for me over and over again.

More pissing contest...

I am not "making yout point", you were talking in absolutes, saying that there were no facts. I pointed out that there are facts that can be established... whatever one's viewpoint on this is.

Which part of this are you disputing as fact:

* That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?
* That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?
* That Moroni said that they were there?

Well?

Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book.

"That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?'' That question itself is not appropriate for BOM geography disputes without additional context.

"That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?" Yes, Joseph claimed that. The claim can still be disputed with differing opinions. No one has direct evidence that he did indeed find the plates or anything there.
These first two questions should be asked as, "Are there multiple Hill Cumorahs and were the plates and other artifacts moved from another area to NY?" And that question would still be debated with multiple different opinions.

"That Moroni said that they were there?" This is a matter of opinion.

"Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book." There you go making my point for me again.

"The Hill Cumorah" was just a nickname early members gave that hill. The angel Moroni never called it the "Hill Cumorah". If it was, why would Moroni leave this fact out? Mormons label lots of landmarks after important places, like the "Jordan River", "Manti", "Lehi", etc. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with actual locations.

[jreuben]

@TrueFaith actually there is much evidence! It is simply harder to find. Have you visited the region or stood upon the COUNTLESS mounds in the regions and handled artifacts found there? Indeed, you are incorrect that there is no evidence! It is RIFE with it!

[TrueFaith]

@TrueFaith actually there is much evidence! It is simply harder to find. Have you visited the region or stood upon the COUNTLESS mounds in the regions and handled artifacts found there? Indeed, you are incorrect that there is no evidence! It is RIFE with it!

There are countless artifacts from every civilization on this continent. That is no argument.

Mounds. What is the big deal with mounds? They seem so important to the Hopewell indians. Not so much with the Nephites.

[markharr]

Putting together a handy chart


Heartland
DNA
Proximity to hill Cumorah
Joseph Smith letters
metal ore mines
Mounds
Metal swords, breastplates and headplates
Linguistics
Mounds and artifacts that match Jewish iconography


MesoAmerica
Volcanoes
climate
population
Big buildings but no evidence of metalworking.

[markharr]

[Teancum]

Well, I guess I got suckered in to posting in this fight. Shows my lack of restraint, moral fortitude, or whatever.

It has been my experience that I don't know jack. And when I do think that I know, I am forcibly humbled to acknowledge that I don't. So, as a result, I try to be open to whatever discoveries, revelation, announcement, or findings that may happen to come my way.

I have also observed that for the most part, people adhering to one particular model, seem to be much more militant about their beliefs - almost to a religious fanaticism. Reminds me of a certain old-world culture / race / group that would not accept anything other than what they already had.

So with that all said, I know that there are evidences all over the Americas (north, south, east and west). Some evidences even in my own backyard (relatively speaking):

and also this one:

These show through a written record highly detailed accounts of stories found in the Book of Mormon.
Not just these, but there are more evidences around. Where do these fit in any model? Does that mean one should discard all evidences that don't match our chosen model or to the exclusion of any other? Or does that mean that we should try to squeeze all evidences to fit inside a pet model? Perhaps it best to expand our view to a grand unified theory where everything fits .. sort-of? Which way allows for more discoveries (wherever they might be) to fit in?

I think that in the end, the Lord wants people to rely upon faith, gaining a testimony for themselves about the Book of Mormon from the Holy Ghost and not by any "scientific evidences" that might be found to support the claims. Because the Lord does not reveal exactly where and when and what, backed up with museums full of "see this proves it" stuff, I am content to say that through the Holy Ghost, I know the Book of Mormon to be God's word for us, and that wherever it took place does not affect that testimony.

If we do rely upon faith then there is not a disposition to contend, but be believing.

[markharr]

Well, I guess I got suckered in to posting in this fight. Shows my lack of restraint, moral fortitude, or whatever.

It has been my experience that I don't know jack. And when I do think that I know, I am forcibly humbled to acknowledge that I don't. So, as a result, I try to be open to whatever discoveries, revelation, announcement, or findings that may happen to come my way.

I have also observed that for the most part, people adhering to one particular model, seem to be much more militant about their beliefs - almost to a religious fanaticism. Reminds me of a certain old-world culture / race / group that would not accept anything other than what they already had.

So with that all said, I know that there are evidences all over the Americas (north, south, east and west). Some evidences even in my own backyard (relatively speaking):

and also this one:

These show through a written record highly detailed accounts of stories found in the Book of Mormon.
Not just these, but there are more evidences around. Where do these fit in any model? Does that mean one should discard all evidences that don't match our chosen model or to the exclusion of any other? Or does that mean that we should try to squeeze all evidences to fit inside a pet model? Perhaps it best to expand our view to a grand unified theory where everything fits .. sort-of? Which way allows for more discoveries (wherever they might be) to fit in?

I think that in the end, the Lord wants people to rely upon faith, gaining a testimony for themselves about the Book of Mormon from the Holy Ghost and not by any "scientific evidences" that might be found to support the claims. Because the Lord does not reveal exactly where and when and what, backed up with museums full of "see this proves it" stuff, I am content to say that through the Holy Ghost, I know the Book of Mormon to be God's word for us, and that wherever it took place does not affect that testimony.

If we do rely upon faith then there is not a disposition to contend, but be believing.

I reject the notion that having an interest in the geography of the book of Mormon means that you have no faith in the teachings of the book of Mormon.

[Alexander]

The church can’t rob the Lamanite’s birthright; it isn’t theirs to give or hold back from them.

The true Lamanites will go forth like a lion amongst the Gentiles and tear them to pieces, and reclaim the land and blessings which belong to them in Zion, New Jerusalem, in North America.

Those descendants of the Lamanites are from Argentina all the way up to Mexico and even groups in Canada and the United States.

They are becoming powerful in and out of the Church, and some guys up north are very nervous about that. The leadership sees, correctly, that they are the future of the Church.

A aprender el español é o português...

Lol

[jreuben]

@TrueFaith I'm surprised at how comedic you can be. Either that or you lack serious critical thinking skills in certain areas since you seem pretty sharp on other topics. I really don't even need to acknowledge your reply since it has such a low logic score and simply shows NO thought whatsoever in that area of "mounds".

@Teancum I think the reason for your observation, at least from my perspective, is that I am appalled by the fact that this non-existent debate (I say this since there really is no way to debate this if you have a belief and/or testimony of brother Joseph) is being used by satan and the luciferian hosts to minimize and destroy Joseph's role, revelations and to subvert an entire society that needs to be reformed. The hispanic cultures of latin America are horribly corrupted and the things that are celebrated are not of God, but rather implanted by luciferian forces. The propagation of the false belief that they are the primary seed of the Lamanites talked about in the Book of Mormon creates a horrible ongoing engendering of false ideas, false ideals and largely falsely founded testimonies. It is an ego/pride stroking situation and that cannot and should not be tolerated since it is destroying people of that culture and ethnicity. It also is critically important to know where they do come from (Mongolians for the Dog People for example and Cham for many others and their connectedness to societies that have luciferian worshiping roots instead of Elohim-centric roots) so as to reform/repent and to truly come unto Christ. It is nearly impossible for this to happen given this and so many elements of consideration in this thread.

The Utah Nine Mile Canyon petroglyph is interesting in relation to Lehi. The Dry Fork Utah Fremont Indian petroglyphs are also interesting. Thanks for calling attention to those. There are interesting petroglyphs all over the place that have largely gone undocumented - even in the Land Bountiful.

By the way @subcomo, I guess you don't know much about the roles of the tribes of Israel and specifically Ephraim and Manasseh, etc. from some of your remarks.

[Niemand]

You say what you feel is a fact, then proceed to explain that other's have a different opinion. You are making my point for me over and over again.

More pissing contest...

I am not "making yout point", you were talking in absolutes, saying that there were no facts. I pointed out that there are facts that can be established... whatever one's viewpoint on this is.

Which part of this are you disputing as fact:

* That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?
* That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?
* That Moroni said that they were there?

Well?

Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book.

"That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?'' That question itself is not appropriate for BOM geography disputes without additional context.

"That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?" Yes, Joseph claimed that. The claim can still be disputed with differing opinions. No one has direct evidence that he did indeed find the plates or anything there.
These first two questions should be asked as, "Are there multiple Hill Cumorahs and were the plates and other artifacts moved from another area to NY?" And that question would still be debated with multiple different opinions.

"That Moroni said that they were there?" This is a matter of opinion.

"Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book." There you go making my point for me again.

I've already covered both the forgery and multiple Cumorah aspects. Keep up. The Book of Mormon is firmly connected to Joseph Smith... very few people either believers or non-believers think otherwise.

[Niemand]

Putting together a handy chart


Heartland
DNA
Proximity to hill Cumorah
Joseph Smith letters
metal ore mines
Mounds
Metal swords, breastplates and headplates
Linguistics
Mounds and artifacts that match Jewish iconography


MesoAmerica
Volcanoes
climate
population
Big buildings but no evidence of metalworking.

You can add writing to the last one as well.

There is undisputed evidence of writing from Mesoamerica, and a lot of it, unlike other parts of the Americas. (There is some possible evidence of writing elsewhere, but it's controversial.)

"No evidence of metalworking"

“The ruler restricted the privilege of wearing gold and silver ornaments so carefully that many metal-workers enjoyed a special relationship with the palace.” - Brian Fagan, "The Aztecs"

Mesoamerica is short of certain native metals so they have to be imported. But the major civilisations of Mesoamerica and the Andes worked a lot in gold, which is partly what drew the Spanish in.

[Niyr]

You say what you feel is a fact, then proceed to explain that other's have a different opinion. You are making my point for me over and over again.

More pissing contest...

I am not "making yout point", you were talking in absolutes, saying that there were no facts. I pointed out that there are facts that can be established... whatever one's viewpoint on this is.

Which part of this are you disputing as fact:

* That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?
* That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?
* That Moroni said that they were there?

Well?

Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book.

"That there is not a Hill Cumorah in New York?'' That question itself is not appropriate for BOM geography disputes without additional context.

"That Joseph Smith claimed to have found the plates there?" Yes, Joseph claimed that. The claim can still be disputed with differing opinions. No one has direct evidence that he did indeed find the plates or anything there.
These first two questions should be asked as, "Are there multiple Hill Cumorahs and were the plates and other artifacts moved from another area to NY?" And that question would still be debated with multiple different opinions.

"That Moroni said that they were there?" This is a matter of opinion.

"Some people say there is more than one Cumorah, but there is certainly at least one hill in New York State which is directly linked to the book." There you go making my point for me again.

I've already covered both the forgery and multiple Cumorah aspects. Keep up. The Book of Mormon is firmly connected to Joseph Smith... very few people either believers or non-believers think otherwise.

You keep conflating different topics, driving further and further away from my original comment, and again you keep pointing out that there are people with different opinions, continuing to make my point for me over and over again that it IS a fact that people have different opinions on BOM geography. Keep up.

[TrueFaith]

Putting together a handy chart


Heartland
DNA
Proximity to hill Cumorah
Joseph Smith letters
metal ore mines
Mounds
Metal swords, breastplates and headplates
Linguistics
Mounds and artifacts that match Jewish iconography


MesoAmerica
Volcanoes
climate
population
Big buildings but no evidence of metalworking.

Most of that first list doesn't even matter. Seriously what do mounds have to do with the Book of Mormon at all?

Joseph Smith's opinion on the matter is also irrelevant. He was a prophet, not an archeologist. This just prove the Book of Mormon authentic because he didn't have full understanding what the book was even proving.

There are literally mountains of metal workings in Meso and South America. Google it. Gold-made objects have been found all over the place there. The word "steel" only exists in the Book of Mormon up until the book of Jarom, after that only "precious metals" are described. If you say that you're finding tons of metal weapons in North America, you're either stumbling upon Jaredite stuff, or a completely different group of people altogether, because Book of Mormon wars were primarily not fought with metal weapons, post Jarom.

As I already stated, the proximity to the "Hill Cumorah" is meaningless. This hill as the same location as Mormon buried the plates was never named or referenced in the Book of Mormon. It was only stated that Moroni took the plates out of the Hill Cumorah. He never said where he buried them.

Here's the real list.

Heartland
Zion's Camp march
Zelph's Mound (a Joseph Smith archeological opinion, NOT revelation)
Total misunderstanding of the "Hill Cumorah"
The evidence was destroyed.
Rod Meldrum's marketing and personal revelations.

MesoAmerica
True Narrow Neck
Land of Desolation to the North
Tons of metal objects, lots of mines
Massive cities proven to have held millions of people
Highways
Mass farming
Evidence of periodic mass balkanization and genocidal war events.
Warm weather (no snow or cold season described)
Highland to the south.
Multiple rivers flowing from south to north.
Legends of a white God.
The authenticated story of "Fire is Born" matching the end of the Book of Mormon timeline.

The Heartland model is a very new theory. Rod Meldrum is an amateur with a culinary background who thinks he knows better than decades of Book of Mormon research from real scholars.

His theories came about because of Prophet worship of Joseph Smith, which is no different than the LDS who idolize Nelson today for ridiculous non-gospel related inspiration (like vaccines). Meldrum's entire basis was formulated around Joseph Smith's Zions Camp trip. He conjectured the entire thing to have some kind of deep meaning that he came up with himself that the path the camp followed was on the border of the Nephite civilization. I'm not joking.

His entire argument is based on an appeal to personal revelation. He is NO DIFFERENT from other LDS quacks and false prophets like Julie Rowe who think they can get revelation for everyone else. I sat and listened to his whole presentation in the Saint George Tabernacle years ago. He had yet to build up the other nonsense around his revelation to legitimize it. The main thrust of his argument was, "God revealed this to me, so believe it."

Here is a longer list of Meldrum's problems:

FAIR and other researchers have noted, among others, the following problems:
A. Appeals to revelation and attacks on other members
1. Meldrum uses appeals to personal revelation regarding his theory.
2. Meldrum attacks LDS scholars who do not agree with his theory, claims they “disdain and disparage” Joseph Smith, and accuses them of helping anti-Mormons.
3. Meldrum attacks BYU for its science curriculum.
4. Meldrum uses extensive testimonials that demonstrate that many in his audience understand that he is claiming revelation and certainty regarding his model.
5. Meldrum is forbidden to use Church facilities to hold or advertise his events.
6. Meldrum frequently relies on paranoia or conspiracy theories to explain why his model has not been accepted. This includes attacks on BYU, LDS scholars, LDS who offer a different model, the National Science Foundation, the National Association of Science, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, DNA researchers on mutation rates and dating haplotype X2a, Elder James E. Talmage and others who declared the Michigan relics to be forgeries, those who develop computer models, and North American archaeologists who find no evidence of metallurgy north of Mexico (see full text description of “Iron Age America” sold here). Despite making all his income from marketing his theory, Meldrum accuses those who disagree with having financial motives behind their disagreement, without admitting that the same might apply to him.

B. False and incomplete claims about Joseph Smith’s writings and attitude toward a variety of geographies
7. The Heartland Model falsely claims Joseph Smith had a revelation about Book of Mormon geography. Leaders of the Church have repeatedly taught that there is no revealed Book of Mormon geography.
8. The Heartland Model falsely claims that letters written by Joseph Smith in which he expressed interest in a non-North American model were not written by Joseph.
9. The Heartland Model falsely claims that Joseph Smith was in hiding and unable to oversee Church publications when reviews favorable to a non-North American model were published.
10. The Heartland Model claims that Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was on “this continent,” meaning North America. But, Joseph Smith and others often talked about the whole western hemisphere as a continent.

C. Use of forgeries and misrepresentation
11. The Heartland Model appeals to known forgeries to support his model. The Heartland Model claims that LDS scientists (including James E. Talmage) who identified the forgeries are biased “pseudoscientists.”
12. Meldrum helped produce another DVD about early North American history in which scientists interviewed claimed that their remarks had been edited and taken out of context to make it appear as if they supported claims which they do not.
13. The basic Heartland Model was originally proposed and later rejected by author Ed Goble, whose original work is nether recognized or attributed to by authors May and Meldrum who have claimed the model as their own.

D. DNA errors
The Heartland Model gets virtually everything about DNA wrong. Brigham Young University’s FARMS Review has a detailed discussion here. Some highlights:
14. Believing LDS scholars with expertise in DNA universally reject the Heartland Model.
15. The Heartland Model accuses LDS scholars and BYU professors of betraying members and the gospel because they do not accept his model.
16. LDS geneticists have overwhelmingly concluded that Lehi’s DNA signature is very unlikely to be detected, contrary to what the Heartland Model expects.
17. The Heartland Model ignores that if Lehi has any modern day descendants, then all modern day Amerindians are almost certainly his descendants. We cannot, genetically, confine Lehi’s descendants to a small group—the science just doesn’t work that way.
18. The Heartland Model’s reading of the X2a haplotype is wrong. Furthermore, he ignores that there are no examples of X2a in the Old World.
19. The Heartland Model claims that a desire to keep “evolutionary biology” and “old earth” dating leads scientists or some LDS members to distort the data to produce old date for X2a. He appeals to conspiracy theories to explain why non-LDS and LDS scientists do not accept his model.
20. The Heartland Model (1) misrepresents the papers cited for dating X2a, many of which are also out of date; and (2) ignores that problems with the model can be demonstrated in historical time, using known, modern human populations, with no appeal at all to evolutionary biology. It is true that evolutionary biology does not help the Heartland Model, but the model has failed long before evolution arguments are even raised. If one accepts evolution, then the Heartland Model has even bigger problems. If one does not, the model still fails based on objective, real-world tests in known populations.

E. Geography problems
The Heartland Model’s geography does not match the Book of Mormon text. A few examples are included below, and details on each are available here:
21. Hagoth cannot, as is claimed, navigate from the Great Lakes to the ocean.
22. The Mississippi River flows north to south; the Sidon flows south to north.
23. The Sidon should empty into the “seas,” which are the Great Lakes in the Heartland Model. The Mississippi flows into the Gulf of Mexico, far away from these “seas.”
24. The confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers as the "head" of the river Sidon does not work, because this confluence is not in an area identified by the Book of Mormon as a "narrow strip of wilderness."
25. The Heartland Model uses the Ohio River as the geographic feature separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, while the Book of Mormon indicates that the separating feature was a narrow strip of wilderness.
26. The Heartland Model has the land Bountiful southeast of Zarahemla; the Book of Mormon has it northward. (A map demonstrating these claims is available here, about a third of the way through.)
27. The Heartland Model elsewhere claims that Bountiful is directly north of the land of Nephi; in the Book of Mormon, Zarahemla is directly north of the land of Nephi.
28. The Heartland Model’s Land of Nephi does not stretch from east to west sea, as it would need to in order to match the Book of Mormon text.
29. The Book of Mormon has the sea west to the west of the Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful, but the Heartland Model has it east of Zarahemla and north of Bountiful.
30. The land of first inheritance should be on the west sea, west from the land of Nephi. The Heartland Model places it south of the land of Nephi, on the Gulf of Mexico that is not even one of the “seas” in his model.
31. Heartland Model requires Limhi’s rescue party to travel almost 1700 miles in error (maps here, about half way down).
32. Heartland Model misrepresents other members’ work, to make his seem more plausible.
33. Heartland Model buffalo evidence gets almost everything wrong.
34. John Sorenson (emeritus professor of anthropology, BYU) offers his own extensive list of cultural and geographical problems that make the model unworkable.

F. The Heartland Model misreads scripture and omits quotes from LDS leaders that disagree with his model. (An excellent FARMS Review article is here.)

35. Heartland Model ignores many scriptural uses of the term “land of promise” referring to a broader area than Missouri. At least ten LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) applied the term to all of North and South America, not just Missouri.
36. Heartland Model ignores Book of Mormon passages that place elements of the promised land outside the present-day (or Joseph’s day) United States—including the visit of Christopher Columbus, who never entered the modern day United States: his explorations were restricted to the Caribbean and Central America (he never traveled even as far north as Mexico).
37. Heartland Model uses a city founded by Mormons near Nauvoo (named “Zarahemla) to locate the Nephite city of Zarahemla. The model ignores that it was settlers who started calling it Zarahemla first, not scripture or Joseph Smith. The lines about Zarahemla were added later, for historical clarity, by an editor when the revelation was published.
38. Likewise, a city called “Manti” was ascribed to the prophet by later editors, but it was not in the original text.
39. Heartland Model’s confused discussion of “this land” distorts the Book of Mormon text.


G. Cultural problems
The Heartland Model uses a number of “parallels” that either exist in many geographical models, or misunderstands elements in the Book of Mormon text that don’t match his model.

40. Items in many models: armor, weapons, defensive works, cities, presence of dead bodies, bodies of water.
41. Heartland Model does not match the known archaeology of the Hopewell area that he wishes to make into the Nephites.
42. The Heartland Model’s seasonal and climate claims have problems; some Book of Mormon elements (e.g., extreme heat, rather than snow, in and end-of-the year battle) do not match his proposed geography.
43. The Heartland Model also misunderstands the evidence about population sizes and growth.
44. The Heartland Model misrepresents and misunderstands the issue of stone cities versus wood cities, and burning “stone” cities.
45. The Heartland Model’s list of “hits” is, in fact, either misses, or hits that are also hits in other models.

http://www.bmaf.org/node/359

This man is a deceiver. I've noticed there are quite a few people here on LDSFF who frequently fall for these latter day clowns. A lot of people here pining for Davidic Servants and other such idols they can cling to. Not sure why so many are so susceptible to this kind of deception here, just pointing it out.

[TrueFaith]

Another laundry list of the Heartland idiocy. This theory is so easy to debunk, I could do it in my sleep.

This page is about the Book of Mormon geography by Rodney Meldrum and has the same deficiencies as Wayne May, Jonathan Neville, and other Heartland modelers:

No sea directly west of Zarahemla
No sea directly east of Zarahemla
Stated travel times make it clear Book of Mormon lands were small; consider the following:

1.5 days or 50 miles from the Sea West to the Sea East
Less than a day (less than 30 miles) Bountiful to Manti
Less than a day (less than 30 miles) from the City Zarahemla to the Sea East
Rodney Meldrum lacks the fundamental understanding that the River Sidon flowed only in the Land Southward and was never used for shipping like the Mississippi is.

What we do know is that the river ran either north or south as it had east and west banks. Alma 2:15, 2:17, 6:7, 16:7, 43:53 and 49.16 specify an east bank or side of the river, and Alma 8:3, 43:27, 43.32, 43.53 indicate a western side or bank. The Book of Mormon also indicates that shipping of lumber was being accomplished (see BoM Helaman 3:10) potentially indicating a navigable river (indicating a river without natural barriers to boat travel such as falls, etc.). The proposed river in this geography model fits beautifully into both of these criterions.

Rodney Meldrum continues to take advantage of the less informed Church members. Helaman 3 refers to the Jaredite Land Northward which was “desolate” of timber, and had its own waterways which they “sent forth for timber.” The lands of Zarahemla and Bountiful were in the Land Southward and were the only lands the River Sidon flowed through; they were not in need of timber, thus, NO SHIPPING OCCURRED ON THE RIVER SIDON.

Meldrum’s desperate attempts to substantiate the word “head” as meaning other than “source” is dishonest:

He ignores the Book of Mormon use of the word in Lehi’s Tree of Life vision.
He misinterprets the Bible’s use of “head” in Gen. 2:10 which refutes his use of “head,” and ignores the Hebrew meaning which is: “top, beginning, and head.” It does NOT say “converge.”
He misuses Alma 43:32 to imply the entire land leaned southward, therefore he reasoned, the river flowed southward. But his desperation shows in verse 31 which makes it clear the reference was to the Hill Riplah NOT THE ENTIRE LAND. Instead he should explain why armies went to the “head” to get around the river if it wasn’t for dry ground!
He ignores the CLOSE reference to Zarahemla of an East Sea, which was LESS THAN A DAYS DISTANCE (Alma 58:14, 24-25). WHERE IS MELDRUM’S EAST SEA?
He ignores the LARGE DISTANCE from his Manti in Huntsville, MO to his river head in Cairo, IL – a whopping 321 miles, which would have taken EIGHT DAYS TO WALK!
He ignores the fact there was NO SEA SOUTH OF THE LAND OF NEPHI. Where is his river flowing to?? Until Meldrum produces an internal map, this nonsense will not end.
The length of the land (Alma 22:29) from Bountiful on the north (Alma 27:22) to Manti on the south (Alma 16:7; 22:27) was one day (Alma 43:18-24). THE RIVER SIDON MUST FIT IN THAT AREA!
Until Rodney Meldrum produces an Internal Geography Map showing a sea west of the Land of Nephi and the Land of First Inheritance, and a sea east of the Land of Zarahemla it is not wise to accept his interpretations.

Book “Prophecies and Promises, the Book of Mormon and the United States of America” by Bruce H. Porter and Rodney L. Meldrum.

In their book, Bruce Porter and Rodney Meldrum accuse others of:

Scriptural research must be done without trying to redefine the words and statements in the scriptures for the purpose of any personal agenda. The Standard Works are the standards of truth and, therefore supersede any and every personal or hypothetical interpretation (p. 21).

Unfortunately, they fail to follow their own counsel. Whereas the Book of Mormon defines how the word “head” is used, Meldrum ignores its meaning by “redefining” it according to an obscure dictionary definition (details below).

Perhaps the easiest way to discount their model is to ask, how and why the Mulekites who came from Israel via the Great Deep and the Sea North (Lake Superior to them) landing in the Jaredite Land Northward would travel all the way to Missouri to found Zarahemla when they could have stopped at Lake Michigan instead? Or how Lehi got to the Sea West (Lake Michigan for them), when their Lands of First Inheritance are in Louisiana along the Mississippi River? Map

The following are the more serious errors found in Rodney Meldrum’s DVD – “DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography.”

1. City Manti

Joseph allegedly identified Huntsville, Missouri as the ancient city Manti (Doctrines of Salvation 3:232).

Where is Manti? That is simple to explain. Manti was by the river’s head (Alma 22:27) in the Southern Wilderness (Alma 43:22) south of Gideon (Alma 17:1). Where was Gideon? East of the River Sidon (Alma 6:7), and east of the City of Zarahemla (Alma 6:7).

Instead of dismissing the alleged statement by Joseph Smith, Meldrum trys to defend it by postulating that “head” means “confluence” or where two rivers meet. In this case Meldrum postulates the head of the River Sidon as the place where the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers merge at Cairo, IL. Meldrum got the idea of “confluence” from BYU Studies, vol. 36 no. 2 (1996-97), “Light on the ‘Mission to the Lamanites'”:

“The phrase ‘borders of the Lamanites’ was uniquely Mormon and referred to the boundary line between the western edge of Missouri and present-day Kansas. The Shawnee and Delaware tribes of Ohio, foreseeing the inevitable, had reluctantly vacated their lands in 1828 and 1829 and resettled west of the confluence of the Missouri and Kansas rivers. The nearest white settlement was the newly platted village of Independence, Missouri, the seat of government for Jackson County.”

Was credit given for where he got the idea? No. How close is Cairo, IL to Huntsville, MO? 321 miles [a five hour journey by car. That is hardly in close proximity to Huntsville, MO!]. There is no river head in Huntsville—period! Huntsville cannot be Book of Mormon Manti.

https://goo.gl/maps/UNo9M1GfqSS3dtDX7

NEWS ALERT! MELDRUM SHIFTED HIS RIVER’S HEAD TO ST. LOUIS NOW:

http://www.firmlds.org/images/img_Uploa ... a,%20Manti,…

2. MISSISSIPPI RIVER = RIVER SIDON?

Meldrum and others have identified the Mississippi River as the River Sidon. One of its many problems is that it flows the wrong way. To get around this problem, Meldrum interprets the word river “head” to mean “river mouth” [update: Meldrum now believes “head” means “confluence” as stated above]. But that’s not what the Book of Mormon says.

a. What Does Head Mean?

To answer that question we can use the Book of Mormon. In the dream of Lehi he saw a river that had a head, which head was “the source” (1 Nephi 8:13-14). Head means source—where it begins. Mouth means opening, or where it ends.

b. Southern Wilderness

What about the Southern Wilderness that was around the head? That does not make sense if the head was the mouth, i.e. the Gulf of Mexico. Or worse, where two rivers converge, i.e. the Mississippi and Ohio (Alma 43:22).

c. Way for Armies

Why would the armies purposely go to the head as a way to get around the river if the head was a gulf, or a turbulent place of convergence (Alma 43:22)?

d. Not a Boundary

Meldrum points out that the Mississippi River was a barrier for animals (prior to dams, locks or levies), in particular the Buffalo. He said the river was SO WIDE that the animals could not see the other side, therefore they would not cross. We do not read about the River Sidon EVER acting as any sort of land barrier—either for animals or people. The Nephites freely crossed the River Sidon on a regular basis.

e. Too Long

It is far too long – over 2300 miles long. Book of Mormon lands were only 125 miles long, and the River Sidon flowed through only a portion of it—NOT ALL OF IT.

f. Too Deep

The “Mighty Mississippi” has always been used for shipping. It is far too deep for people to quickly cross as they did in Book of Mormon times.

g. No Banks

The Mississippi River does not have banks that armies could fight upon. For most of the Mississippi River in Missouri the land is flat clear to the waters edge—THERE ARE NO BANKS.

No Banks

h. Two Rivers – Wrong Place

The River Sidon had two branches, however his placing them south of the City of Manti is incorrect. It clearly states they were on each side of the City of Zarahemla, which was NORTH of Manti (Alma 2:15-37, 6:7). They are not even on each side of the Manti in his own model as shown on the map above.

i. Shipping – Never Happened

Meldrum confuses the land northward of the Nephites with the Land Northward of the Jaredites:

Meldrum: Alma 22:29 does indicate that the head of the Sidon river was in the north as it states ‘the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon.’

Thus he believes this verse referring to shipping occurred on the River Sidon:

Meldrum: The Book of Mormon also indicates that shipping of lumber was being accomplished (see BoM Helaman 3:10) potentially indicating a navigable river (indicating a river without natural barriers to travel such as rapids, falls, etc).

Unfortunately, that verse in Helaman is referring to the Jaredite Land Northward, which was separated from the Nephite land northward (lower case)—properly called Land Southward—by a Narrow Passage/Neck of Land. It had its own rivers up there that were used for shipping, because the Jaredite Land Northward was desolate of timber. There was never a lack of timber in the Land Southward. There is no mention of shipping on the River Sidon—ever. There is no way for the Mississippi River to fit the Book of Mormon geography no matter how you slice it.

3. WHIRLWINDS

Meldrum wants to use the SINGLE REFERENCE of whirlwinds AT THE TIME OF CHRIST to try and show a pattern to match those along the Mississippi Valley, in support of his model. This is VERY disingenuous and a SERIOUS stretch. Those whirlwinds were a ONE TIME SIGN:

a. One Time Sign

3 And after the Messiah shall come there shall be SIGNS GIVEN unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. 4 Wherefore, all those who are proud, and that do wickedly, the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, for they shall be as stubble. 5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them, and WHIRLWINDS shall carry them away, and buildings shall fall upon them and crush them to pieces and grind them to powder (2 Nephi 26:3-5).

b. Land Northward Only

If we wanted to allow this one time reference to reflect a pattern, it says they ONLY occured in the Land Northward – NOT the Mississippi Valley (Meldrum’s Land Southward):

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the LAND NORTHWARD; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the WHIRLWINDS, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth (3 Nephi 8:12);

c. Selective Damage

Who was carried away by the whirlwinds? The wicked:

12 And it was the more righteous part of the people who were saved, and it was they who received the prophets and stoned them not; and it was they who had not shed the blood of the saints, who were spared—
13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.
14 And now, whoso readeth, let him understand; he that hath the scriptures, let him search them, and see and behold if all these deaths and destructions by fire, and by smoke, and by tempests, and by whirlwinds, and by the opening of the earth to receive them, and all these things are not unto the fulfilling of the prophecies of many of the holy prophets. (3 Nephi 10:12-14)

This SELECTIVE DAMAGE is evidence that these whirlwinds were a ONE TIME ACT OF GOD—not a pattern to base a model on.

4. MAMMAL MIGRATIONS

Buffalo

For support of seasons in the Book of Mormon, Meldrum uses “migratory beasts” as evidence in Ether 9:34:

34 And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord. (Ether 9:34)

What Meldrum fails to mention is this was a ONE TIME EVENT instigated BY GOD:

28 And there came prophets in the land again, crying repentance unto them—that they must prepare the way of the Lord or there should come a curse upon the face of the land; yea, even there should be a great famine, in which they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
29 But the people believed not the words of the prophets, but they cast them out; and some of them they cast into pits and left them to perish. And it came to pass that they did all these things according to the commandment of the king, Heth.
30 And it came to pass that there began to be a great dearth upon the land, and the inhabitants began to be destroyed exceedingly fast because of the dearth, for there was no rain upon the face of the earth.
31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.
32 And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, there were some which fled into the land southward.
33 And it came to pass that THE LORD DID CAUSE THE SERPENTS that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.
34 And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord.
35 And it came to pass that when they had humbled themselves sufficiently before THE LORD HE DID SEND RAIN upon the face of the earth; and the people began to revive again, and there began to be fruit in the north countries, and in all the countries round about. And the Lord did show forth his power unto them in preserving them from famine. (Ether 9:28-35)

a. Drought

As it says in this full account, it was a ONE TIME DROUGHT and not a regularly occurring “migratory season.”

b. Poisonous Serpents

To further substantiate that these animal movements were anything but migratory, verse 31 says it was BECAUSE OF THE POISONOUS SERPENTS that the animals went south.

c. God Caused It

And thirdly, to show how rare this movement was—both the drought and the serpents were CAUSED BY GOD. Meldrum then cites Alma 22:31 as a support, which it is not:

31 and they came from there up into the south wilderness thus the land on the northward was called Desolation and the land on the southward was called Bountiful it being the wilderness which was filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind a part of which had come from the land northward for food (Alma 22)

Notice how it clearly says why the animals left the Land Northward—it was desolate. This is a far cry different from animals seasonally migrating. This was a non-seasonal, one-time movement due to the land becoming desolate for many generations.

21 and they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness to get game and the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants (Ether 10)

This makes it clear that the Land Southward, (Bountiful) was set aside as a “Nature Reserve” and that is why the animals went there AND stayed there from Jaredite times through Nephite times.

It had nothing to do with seasonal changes. Though Meldrum should be applauded for wanting to tear holes in Mesoamerican models, his use of half-truths for doing so is less than helpful.

5. WHAT PROMISED LANDS?

On our Prerequisites page we note the many promsises associated with Book of Mormon lands that have already been fulfilled. The land where the Book of Mormon would come forth was ON Book of Mormon land. Meldrum has failed to acknowledge the following facts associated with that land:

a. What Indian nation possessed the lands where the Book of Mormon came forth?

[The Iroquois Nation]

b. What were the boundaries of that Indian Nation? Did they include the Mississippi River Valley?

[No]

c. What Indian Nation jointly founded the government of the United States with the Gentiles fulfilling Book of Mormon prophecy that they would jointly found a New Jerusalem on Book of Mormon lands?

The Iroquois Nation. See the Albany Plan of Union on our Prerequisite page. The New Jerusalem is primarily a government.

d. What Indian Nation sold the land that the Book of Mormon was on to the Gentiles fulfilling Book of Mormon prophecy that the Gentiles would “obtain (i.e. purchase) it?”

The Iroquois Nation. See the book Holland Land Purchase on our Bookstore page for those details.

These Book of Mormon prophecies and more find fulfillment in only one place—western New York with the Iroquois Nation. To deny the reality of these facts of the founding of our nation is to deny that America is in fact the Land of Promise.

CONCLUSION

There are a host of other errors that can easily be surmised by reading this website. His orientation of the Land of First Inheritance and the Land of Nephi along the Mississippi River (his River Sidon) is NEVER stated in the Book of Mormon. His lack of a Sea west AND east of Zarahemla is intolerable. And most importantly, he fails to point out how his lands were HIDDEN, and why the Nephites thought they were on an ISLAND.

Though archaeological discoveries in Mesoamerica are FASCINATING—they have NOTHING to do with the fascinating Book of Mormon. Though archaeological discoveries of the Hopewell’s are FASCINATING—they have almost nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.

People assume places in the Book of Mormon were “fascinating” because the Book of Mormon is fascinating. The truth is, their lands were NORMAL, and they were hidden—off the beaten path by land, river, or sea.

REVEIWS

1. “This Idea: The ‘This Land’ Series and the U.S.-Centric Reading of the Book of Mormon by Brant Gardner” (FARMS Review: Volume – 20, Issue – 2, pp. 141-62)

2. Misguided Zeal and Defense of the Church

https://bookofmormongeography.org/basic ... y-meldrum/

[jreuben]

David Hatcher Childress, to start, would be a good read (several books actually) for anyone wanting to believe in central-south American locations. His works will go a long way at cleaning up the groundwork that appears to be missing (or tremendously cluttered up) for most in this space.

[jreuben]

Just within 10 seconds I saw a bunch of errors on that page you shared @TrueFaith. Whoever wrote that is either enormously biased, incredibly ignorant, deceptive or an outright angry liar (or all of these).

[TrueFaith]

Just within 10 seconds I saw a bunch of errors on that page you shared @TrueFaith. Whoever wrote that is either enormously biased, incredibly ignorant, deceptive or an outright angry liar (or all of these).

Yeah, that's what people say when their theories are debunked.

"Rodney Meldrum continues to take advantage of the less informed Church members"

Yep. Seen it so many times.