LDS Freedom Forum

Lineman1012 wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 11:20 pm I went through the Mesa Arizona temple open house, yesterday, November 20, 2021, and as I walked by a painting on the wall the Holy Ghost said, that’s false doctrine”. I looked at it again and sure enough, I had to agree. It was a painting of Lazarus coming forth from the grave with his head unwrapped. It was quite strange looking considering the events in the scriptures.

John 11:
​​​43 ​And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, ​​​Lazarus​, come forth.
​​​44 ​And he that was ​​​dead​ came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a ​​​napkin​. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

I know this is a small thing, but, as we have seen, paintings can grow generations of false beliefs.

How are we ever going to purify our doctrine, let alone purify ourselves?

In the Preston temple we have a painting of Brigham Young, and another of Heber Kimball.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:34 pm

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:27 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:40 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:38 pm I have mixed feelings about this. Is this horrible technocratic pharmaceutical nightmare godly? No.

However, is caring for the sick with care and patience not a good thing? The Adversary has essentially perverted something which should be good into something evil

I don’t think it’s even remotely ok to compare the works of man to the atonement of Christ. Period. Especially not as an addition.

I see what you mean, but that’s not what this young woman’s wording implied IMO...

How can you “extend” an infinite sacrifice?

In the Book of Mormon we’re taught that, “all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:24) Are you suggesting the many beneficial medicines that have helped millions to heal the body, relieve suffering and prevent sickness are not to be numbered among the good that cometh of Christ? And please understand that in asking this question I acknowledge that not all so-called pharmaceuticals are beneficial and wholesome. Have you ever been helped by taking medicines when you were sick or not feeling well, and will you deny that the help you received from those medicines is a good thing?

That's not what the young woman said, is it? She stated that medical professions (the people, not the actual healing) are an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually picky about my wording, and I realize that many people (especially my age) aren't that way, so I don't believe she meant it in that way. But that statement at face value is false.

I would be ok with saying that, when authorized, men CAN extend the healing power of Christ in His name.

So then you do believe dedicated medical practitioners may also be included in the list of those good things that can only come to man through the atonement of Christ? Remember, anything that is good can only come to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and without it no good thing — including those who are well practiced in the healing arts — could come to man.

Lineman1012 wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:34 pm It astounds me how much false doctrine just gets rattled off over the pulpit. There doesn’t seem to be anyway to stop it. The Holy Ghost is constantly whispering to me what true doctrine is.

Today, the week before leaving on her mission, a young sister spoke in sacrament meeting. As she was closing her talk she said she was grateful for the medical profession and she knew it was an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost kicked into gear and while shaking his head said to me, Jesus Christ doesn’t need an extension. He is God and is completely independent, all encompassing, all powerful and all knowing. He doesn’t need the medical profession in order to heal any of us.

Is my ward the only ward false doctrine goes unchallenged?

What do you do when you hear it?

I do agree that it is extreme and even false to say that the medical profession is an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Where, after all, was this profession for the first 5500+ years of human history preceding the current modern system?

I disagree with the premise that it is not needed completely. God is able to reveal advances in science and technology to people who are ready to receive it. Accepting these new sciences and technologies in no means replaces God, but backs Him up in many aspects. Missionaries are able to go to their fields of labor and return from them quicker than ever before. We are able to split the atom and from this atom-splitting, create remarkable amounts of energy.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:14 pm False doctrine over the pulpit or in a lesson is commonplace. I had a disagreement with a member of the bishopric in sunday school today. He was quite clearly declaring something that was not true, so I put him right. He didn't like it.
There was a visiting high councilman in the lesson and I had hoped he would correct the false doctrine... but he was too busy playing on his phone.

I went to Sacrament Meeting in Norwich some years ago, and walked out when they claimed that all callings were inspired. I do not believe this is the case, and when someone is called to a position and starts embezzling (as happened in a Scottish unit in my time), or becomes a sexual predator towards children or whomever, then I do not believe that calling is inspired. I know there is all kinds of backpeddling that goes on, trying to rationalise this, but I don't buy it.

I know bishops pray about these things, but often it is just a matter of who is available and that can be down to one or two choices, especially in smaller units. Also I believe some bishops are more inspired by others. One of our former bishops, now out of the church, was a good man, but he admitted he didn't feel the spirit... so I wonder how inspired he was. However, I have seen the reverse, when someone has called someone who is not the obvious choice at all, and it has worked really well, so I would call that inspired.

markharr wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 8:04 pm I am kind of tired of covid being compared to a plague. I don't consider anything with a 99.8% survival rate to be a plague.

Every time this comes up, I say, "I know some people are badly affected by it, but most people have to be tested to even know they have it."

There is no come back to that.

Lineman1012 wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 10:48 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:38 pm I have mixed feelings about this. Is this horrible technocratic pharmaceutical nightmare godly? No.

However, is caring for the sick with care and patience not a good thing? The Adversary has essentially perverted something which should be good into something evil

Before sacrament meeting started today, I was talking to an elderly sister that told me that the doctor just diagnosed her with fibromyalgia and that she was now up to 12 prescriptions. All I could think about was how this sister was a goldmine for the pharmaceutical industry.

The word of the Lord is:

D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

Herbs and mild food are direct creations of Father. Pharmaceutical pills are a creation of man. And now we are back to agency, pick your medicine.

I don't think it is even that simple. Off the top of my head, several painkillers are similar to or related to herbal remedies - morphine, aspirin (related to compounds found in willow bark), paracetamol (related to Feverfew's active ingredients) and so on. There is actually an overlap between the two.

However, just because something grows in your garden doesn't make it good. There are plenty of poisonous or dangerous things growing in there. Even the beloved potato plant has parts to it which can make you sick or kill you.

Saying the medical system is an "extension of the Atonement" is saying that Doctors are Gods (with a capital G).

This is sick idol worship....worse than idol worship.

Pazooka wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 5:03 pm It was said that there were no orthodox medical practitioners in Nauvoo while the Prophet was alive. A Missouri minister once visited and “made the observation that he could find no trace whatsoever of any medical doctors in Nauvoo, as ‘the Mormon leader wouldn’t allow them there.’” (Joseph Smith and Herbal Medicine, Bonneville Books, 2009, pg 37)

The Prophet was known to set apart individuals to minister to the sick. Ann Carling, who became known as the “herb doctor” later on in Utah, was told by Joseph Smith in her setting apart that she would be successful in caring for the sick if she would use herbs exclusively for her work.

Vienna Jacques and Patty Sessions were also set apart as “nurse{es} in Israel. Dr Calvin Crane Pendleton was set apart in Nauvoo to care for the sick “receiving but little income from his medical services...{but} earned a livelihood in his shop as a mechanic, and by his pen.”

Swiss convert Nette Anna Furrer, who emigrated to Utah and who was a nurse, physician and surgeon, was told by Brigham Young that her mission was to care for the sick and needy without payment and that “great would be her blessing (Our Pioneer Heritage 6:398).

What about John C Bennet or Willard Richards?

Iceberg wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 6:59 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 5:03 pm It was said that there were no orthodox medical practitioners in Nauvoo while the Prophet was alive. A Missouri minister once visited and “made the observation that he could find no trace whatsoever of any medical doctors in Nauvoo, as ‘the Mormon leader wouldn’t allow them there.’” (Joseph Smith and Herbal Medicine, Bonneville Books, 2009, pg 37)

The Prophet was known to set apart individuals to minister to the sick. Ann Carling, who became known as the “herb doctor” later on in Utah, was told by Joseph Smith in her setting apart that she would be successful in caring for the sick if she would use herbs exclusively for her work.

Vienna Jacques and Patty Sessions were also set apart as “nurse{es} in Israel. Dr Calvin Crane Pendleton was set apart in Nauvoo to care for the sick “receiving but little income from his medical services...{but} earned a livelihood in his shop as a mechanic, and by his pen.”

Swiss convert Nette Anna Furrer, who emigrated to Utah and who was a nurse, physician and surgeon, was told by Brigham Young that her mission was to care for the sick and needy without payment and that “great would be her blessing (Our Pioneer Heritage 6:398).

What about John C Bennet or Willard Richards?

Quacks.

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:34 pm

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:27 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:40 pm
I don’t think it’s even remotely ok to compare the works of man to the atonement of Christ. Period. Especially not as an addition.

I see what you mean, but that’s not what this young woman’s wording implied IMO...

How can you “extend” an infinite sacrifice?

In the Book of Mormon we’re taught that, “all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:24) Are you suggesting the many beneficial medicines that have helped millions to heal the body, relieve suffering and prevent sickness are not to be numbered among the good that cometh of Christ? And please understand that in asking this question I acknowledge that not all so-called pharmaceuticals are beneficial and wholesome. Have you ever been helped by taking medicines when you were sick or not feeling well, and will you deny that the help you received from those medicines is a good thing?

That's not what the young woman said, is it? She stated that medical professions (the people, not the actual healing) are an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually picky about my wording, and I realize that many people (especially my age) aren't that way, so I don't believe she meant it in that way. But that statement at face value is false.

I would be ok with saying that, when authorized, men CAN extend the healing power of Christ in His name.

So then you do believe dedicated medical practitioners may also be included in the list of those good things that can only come to man through the atonement of Christ? Remember, anything that is good can only come to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and without it no good thing — including those who are well practiced in the healing arts — could come to man.

Again, that’s not what she said. You’re creating a straw-man. Her statement would imply that ALL those in the medical profession are good, which is a flat out lie.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:30 am

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:34 pm

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:27 pm

In the Book of Mormon we’re taught that, “all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:24) Are you suggesting the many beneficial medicines that have helped millions to heal the body, relieve suffering and prevent sickness are not to be numbered among the good that cometh of Christ? And please understand that in asking this question I acknowledge that not all so-called pharmaceuticals are beneficial and wholesome. Have you ever been helped by taking medicines when you were sick or not feeling well, and will you deny that the help you received from those medicines is a good thing?

That's not what the young woman said, is it? She stated that medical professions (the people, not the actual healing) are an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually picky about my wording, and I realize that many people (especially my age) aren't that way, so I don't believe she meant it in that way. But that statement at face value is false.

I would be ok with saying that, when authorized, men CAN extend the healing power of Christ in His name.

So then you do believe dedicated medical practitioners may also be included in the list of those good things that can only come to man through the atonement of Christ? Remember, anything that is good can only come to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and without it no good thing — including those who are well practiced in the healing arts — could come to man.

Again, that’s not what she said. You’re creating a straw-man. Her statement would imply that ALL those in the medical profession are good, which is a flat out lie.

"including those who are well practiced in the healing arts"


I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:30 am

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:34 pm
That's not what the young woman said, is it? She stated that medical professions (the people, not the actual healing) are an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually picky about my wording, and I realize that many people (especially my age) aren't that way, so I don't believe she meant it in that way. But that statement at face value is false.

I would be ok with saying that, when authorized, men CAN extend the healing power of Christ in His name.

So then you do believe dedicated medical practitioners may also be included in the list of those good things that can only come to man through the atonement of Christ? Remember, anything that is good can only come to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and without it no good thing — including those who are well practiced in the healing arts — could come to man.

Again, that’s not what she said. You’re creating a straw-man. Her statement would imply that ALL those in the medical profession are good, which is a flat out lie.

"including those who are well practiced in the healing arts"


I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors are an absolute joke.

Agreed. WM Doctors are no longer trained to help people, only to keep them constantly dependent upon the system.

In an LDS sense... where are the healings? Where is the priesthood? Oh... I know...

• ”...they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning... And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil”
  (2 Nephi 26:20, 22)

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:06 am

Iceberg wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 6:59 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 5:03 pm It was said that there were no orthodox medical practitioners in Nauvoo while the Prophet was alive. A Missouri minister once visited and “made the observation that he could find no trace whatsoever of any medical doctors in Nauvoo, as ‘the Mormon leader wouldn’t allow them there.’” (Joseph Smith and Herbal Medicine, Bonneville Books, 2009, pg 37)

The Prophet was known to set apart individuals to minister to the sick. Ann Carling, who became known as the “herb doctor” later on in Utah, was told by Joseph Smith in her setting apart that she would be successful in caring for the sick if she would use herbs exclusively for her work.

Vienna Jacques and Patty Sessions were also set apart as “nurse{es} in Israel. Dr Calvin Crane Pendleton was set apart in Nauvoo to care for the sick “receiving but little income from his medical services...{but} earned a livelihood in his shop as a mechanic, and by his pen.”

Swiss convert Nette Anna Furrer, who emigrated to Utah and who was a nurse, physician and surgeon, was told by Brigham Young that her mission was to care for the sick and needy without payment and that “great would be her blessing (Our Pioneer Heritage 6:398).

What about John C Bennet or Willard Richards?

Quacks.

Totally agree but I thought that they were practicing physicians in Navoo.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

The irony of socialised medicine is that the doctor is geared to spend the least amount of money possible on you, but in business medicine like the States, to extract the most from you. So it's actually the opposite here. You turn up and they tell you they can't do much for you.

I've encountered good and bad doctors. A decent doctor should at least be able to put your mind at ease or have a good 'bedside manner". Some doctors do have more sense. I knew one years ago who pointed out basic things like hospital patients should have views of gardens etc instead of brick walls.

It's pretty pathetic here, but on the rare occasions I go to the doctor, I get told to lose weight, exercise, stop smoking, stop drinking etc, all off a checklist. But they never provide a proper weight loss or dietary plan, and I've told them repeatedly I don't smoke or drink. I've also told them that I can't do a lot of gym training due to a shoulder injury from years back.

I contracted an ear infection in April/May. As an experiment, I let it correct itself. It took exactly the same time to sorted as it had on a previous occasion with medication.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:14 pm False doctrine over the pulpit or in a lesson is commonplace. I had a disagreement with a member of the bishopric in sunday school today. He was quite clearly declaring something that was not true, so I put him right. He didn't like it.
There was a visiting high councilman in the lesson and I had hoped he would correct the false doctrine... but he was too busy playing on his phone.

Maybe he was on here!


False doctrine permeates Mormonism and Christianity. For so many years, I had no clue as to the history of our beliefs - despite taking “History of Religious Thought” at 18. Unfortunately “we can’t handle the truth!” And I include myself still. There are some ideas that blow me away - like the word eternal = beyond time, since time is all I know. But there is sinister, intentional deception too - and at the heart of our doctrine…

“The Fifty Bibles of Constantine were Bibles in the original Greek language commissioned in 331 by Constantine I and prepared by Eusebius of Caesarea.They were made for the use of the Bishop of Constantinople in the growing number of churches in that very new city. Eusebius quoted the letter of commission in his Life of Constantine...”

Eusebius was Constantine’s trusted advisor, Father of church history, Catholic Bishop from 260-339 & had great influence in establishing the Bible - and admitted to lying and deception when it came to doctrine...

• Eusebius said:
  “It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
  &
  “It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

I believe that “there must needs be opposition in all things” including scripture. It’s part of our test of faith to discern truth from error. Human sacrifice scapegoating are not of God - yet they form a major part of Christian dogma, some of the falsehoods, lies and deceptions Eusebius incorporated when having the Bible written.

They hold us back - dam us from progressing - with distraction and shifting response-ability. If everyone believed someone else will make “at-one” what they screw up - how much learning happens? Not much. If everyone waited for a hero to save the day, how many would act heroically? Few. And how much does evil get encouraged! Ultimately, trials - including our screw-ups - serve purpose - like dumb bells weights to help us spiritually become stronger. Many are called but few are chosen because few choose to pick up their own cross. And then few are humbled to rely on God (rather than drugs, church, heroes etc). But if they had relied on God, then how strong they’d be!! And that strength is the one thing they should invest in because it continues with us after death.

Few are chosen because few truly worship God. Many worship churches & other men’s’ ideas & rules - but few worship the God of truth.

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:34 pm

teddyaware wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 4:27 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:40 pm
I don’t think it’s even remotely ok to compare the works of man to the atonement of Christ. Period. Especially not as an addition.

I see what you mean, but that’s not what this young woman’s wording implied IMO...

How can you “extend” an infinite sacrifice?

In the Book of Mormon we’re taught that, “all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:24) Are you suggesting the many beneficial medicines that have helped millions to heal the body, relieve suffering and prevent sickness are not to be numbered among the good that cometh of Christ? And please understand that in asking this question I acknowledge that not all so-called pharmaceuticals are beneficial and wholesome. Have you ever been helped by taking medicines when you were sick or not feeling well, and will you deny that the help you received from those medicines is a good thing?

That's not what the young woman said, is it? She stated that medical professions (the people, not the actual healing) are an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually picky about my wording, and I realize that many people (especially my age) aren't that way, so I don't believe she meant it in that way. But that statement at face value is false.

I would be ok with saying that, when authorized, men CAN extend the healing power of Christ in His name.

So then you do believe dedicated medical practitioners may also be included in the list of those good things that can only come to man through the atonement of Christ? Remember, anything that is good can only come to man through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and without it no good thing — including those who are well practiced in the healing arts — could come to man.

What we call good and what God calls good may not always be the same.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 2:05 am

Lineman1012 wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:34 pm It astounds me how much false doctrine just gets rattled off over the pulpit. There doesn’t seem to be anyway to stop it. The Holy Ghost is constantly whispering to me what true doctrine is.

Today, the week before leaving on her mission, a young sister spoke in sacrament meeting. As she was closing her talk she said she was grateful for the medical profession and she knew it was an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost kicked into gear and while shaking his head said to me, Jesus Christ doesn’t need an extension. He is God and is completely independent, all encompassing, all powerful and all knowing. He doesn’t need the medical profession in order to heal any of us.

Is my ward the only ward false doctrine goes unchallenged?

What do you do when you hear it?

I do agree that it is extreme and even false to say that the medical profession is an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Where, after all, was this profession for the first 5500+ years of human history preceding the current modern system?

I disagree with the premise that it is not needed completely. God is able to reveal advances in science and technology to people who are ready to receive it. Accepting these new sciences and technologies in no means replaces God, but backs Him up in many aspects. Missionaries are able to go to their fields of labor and return from them quicker than ever before. We are able to split the atom and from this atom-splitting, create remarkable amounts of energy.

Well, right there is the whole point of this thread, going right over the top of your head. The Missionaries were shut down. Stopped completely. All for paranoia, all for rampant fear, shrieking for their lives, "Covids, it's the covids, run for your life, we're all going to die!"

And the chapels were shut down, and the Temples were shut down, and "THE PROPHET" said hide in your house, don't come out, live in fear, dread the sight of your fellow man (neighbor).

And there was NOTHING Godly about it.
dc

Niemand wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:07 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

The irony of socialised medicine is that the doctor is geared to spend the least amount of money possible on you, but in business medicine like the States, to extract the most from you. So it's actually the opposite here. You turn up and they tell you they can't do much for you.

I've encountered good and bad doctors. A decent doctor should at least be able to put your mind at ease or have a good 'bedside manner". Some doctors do have more sense. I knew one years ago who pointed out basic things like hospital patients should have views of gardens etc instead of brick walls.

It's pretty pathetic here, but on the rare occasions I go to the doctor, I get told to lose weight, exercise, stop smoking, stop drinking etc, all off a checklist. But they never provide a proper weight loss or dietary plan, and I've told them repeatedly I don't smoke or drink. I've also told them that I can't do a lot of gym training due to a shoulder injury from years back.

I contracted an ear infection in April/May. As an experiment, I let it correct itself. It took exactly the same time to sorted as it had on a previous occasion with medication.

The best doctors I found were at Kaiser Permanente in California. But they worked on volume. So you got in and out fast, so they could get on to the next one. "Next!"

In Utah, I believe I have the C student and D student doctors. Just weren't up to par and same as doctors.
dc

Niemand wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:38 pm I have mixed feelings about this. Is this horrible technocratic pharmaceutical nightmare godly? No.

However, is caring for the sick with care and patience not a good thing? The Adversary has essentially perverted something which should be good into something evil

The problem is the medical profession today took no position of wanting to care for the sick.

They took to the position of acute paranoia and shut down medical clinics, refused to see patients, and basically hid. They locked the doors and put up signs all over that said "Heroes Work Here", while they hid inside and didn't look out the window.

Do you believe it to be heroic to hide? Or fail to take a faithful approach to helping the sick, caring for the elderly, etc.

Do you believe the medical profession should have people in it who are so stupid they didn't know they would be around sick people all the time and might catch a disease?

None of it has been any extension of God, or even basic human knowledge, nor common sense, but instead insane nonsense, let along the Holy Ghost.

I think others here have stated what she maybe really meant to say. But was pathetically unskilled at saying.
dc

Iceberg wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 6:59 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 5:03 pm It was said that there were no orthodox medical practitioners in Nauvoo while the Prophet was alive. A Missouri minister once visited and “made the observation that he could find no trace whatsoever of any medical doctors in Nauvoo, as ‘the Mormon leader wouldn’t allow them there.’” (Joseph Smith and Herbal Medicine, Bonneville Books, 2009, pg 37)

The Prophet was known to set apart individuals to minister to the sick. Ann Carling, who became known as the “herb doctor” later on in Utah, was told by Joseph Smith in her setting apart that she would be successful in caring for the sick if she would use herbs exclusively for her work.

Vienna Jacques and Patty Sessions were also set apart as “nurse{es} in Israel. Dr Calvin Crane Pendleton was set apart in Nauvoo to care for the sick “receiving but little income from his medical services...{but} earned a livelihood in his shop as a mechanic, and by his pen.”

Swiss convert Nette Anna Furrer, who emigrated to Utah and who was a nurse, physician and surgeon, was told by Brigham Young that her mission was to care for the sick and needy without payment and that “great would be her blessing (Our Pioneer Heritage 6:398).

What about John C Bennet or Willard Richards?

John C Bennett was a scoundrel and Willard Richards was a Thomsonian practitioner, which meant he did a correspondence course of very little schooling and used herbs (especially lobelia)

David13 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:41 am

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 2:05 am

Lineman1012 wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:34 pm It astounds me how much false doctrine just gets rattled off over the pulpit. There doesn’t seem to be anyway to stop it. The Holy Ghost is constantly whispering to me what true doctrine is.

Today, the week before leaving on her mission, a young sister spoke in sacrament meeting. As she was closing her talk she said she was grateful for the medical profession and she knew it was an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost kicked into gear and while shaking his head said to me, Jesus Christ doesn’t need an extension. He is God and is completely independent, all encompassing, all powerful and all knowing. He doesn’t need the medical profession in order to heal any of us.

Is my ward the only ward false doctrine goes unchallenged?

What do you do when you hear it?

I do agree that it is extreme and even false to say that the medical profession is an extension of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Where, after all, was this profession for the first 5500+ years of human history preceding the current modern system?

I disagree with the premise that it is not needed completely. God is able to reveal advances in science and technology to people who are ready to receive it. Accepting these new sciences and technologies in no means replaces God, but backs Him up in many aspects. Missionaries are able to go to their fields of labor and return from them quicker than ever before. We are able to split the atom and from this atom-splitting, create remarkable amounts of energy.

Well, right there is the whole point of this thread, going right over the top of your head. The Missionaries were shut down. Stopped completely. All for paranoia, all for rampant fear, shrieking for their lives, "Covids, it's the covids, run for your life, we're all going to die!"

And the chapels were shut down, and the Temples were shut down, and "THE PROPHET" said hide in your house, don't come out, live in fear, dread the sight of your fellow man (neighbor).

And there was NOTING Godly about it.
dc

When you have country governments shutting down travel to the point where they weren't even allowing their own citizens back home (such was the case in Tonga per Vai Sikahema's talk), the Church had no choice but to send the missionaries back home.

Same thing with the chapels and temples. The Church voluntarily decided to shut them all down before the governments stepped in. And as the governments have relaxed their restrictions, the Church has followed suit. Same thing for the vaccinations; in Europe and Australia, for example, increasingly, you will find yourself unable to attend the chapel or the temple without proof of vaccination. Yet in Mexico, under the current setup, that will not happen, because though the government encourages vaccination, they do not FORCE people to get vaccinated (can't say that is the case in Australia, in Europe, and increasingly, in the United States).

Niemand wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:07 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

The irony of socialised medicine is that the doctor is geared to spend the least amount of money possible on you, but in business medicine like the States, to extract the most from you. So it's actually the opposite here. You turn up and they tell you they can't do much for you.

I've encountered good and bad doctors. A decent doctor should at least be able to put your mind at ease or have a good 'bedside manner". Some doctors do have more sense. I knew one years ago who pointed out basic things like hospital patients should have views of gardens etc instead of brick walls.

It's pretty pathetic here, but on the rare occasions I go to the doctor, I get told to lose weight, exercise, stop smoking, stop drinking etc, all off a checklist. But they never provide a proper weight loss or dietary plan, and I've told them repeatedly I don't smoke or drink. I've also told them that I can't do a lot of gym training due to a shoulder injury from years back.

I contracted an ear infection in April/May. As an experiment, I let it correct itself. It took exactly the same time to sorted as it had on a previous occasion with medication.

Walk for 2 hours a day. You will lose weight.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 9:12 am

Niemand wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:07 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

The irony of socialised medicine is that the doctor is geared to spend the least amount of money possible on you, but in business medicine like the States, to extract the most from you. So it's actually the opposite here. You turn up and they tell you they can't do much for you.

I've encountered good and bad doctors. A decent doctor should at least be able to put your mind at ease or have a good 'bedside manner". Some doctors do have more sense. I knew one years ago who pointed out basic things like hospital patients should have views of gardens etc instead of brick walls.

It's pretty pathetic here, but on the rare occasions I go to the doctor, I get told to lose weight, exercise, stop smoking, stop drinking etc, all off a checklist. But they never provide a proper weight loss or dietary plan, and I've told them repeatedly I don't smoke or drink. I've also told them that I can't do a lot of gym training due to a shoulder injury from years back.

I contracted an ear infection in April/May. As an experiment, I let it correct itself. It took exactly the same time to sorted as it had on a previous occasion with medication.

Walk for 2 hours a day. You will lose weight.

I was doing that most of last year. The one problem was that I went through a lot of shoe leather and couldn't buy new ones over lockdown very easily! I was having to repair my own shoes and not very successfully.

David13 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:52 am

Niemand wrote: ↑November 21st, 2021, 3:38 pm I have mixed feelings about this. Is this horrible technocratic pharmaceutical nightmare godly? No.

However, is caring for the sick with care and patience not a good thing? The Adversary has essentially perverted something which should be good into something evil

The problem is the medical profession today took no position of wanting to care for the sick.

They took to the position of acute paranoia and shut down medical clinics, refused to see patients, and basically hid. They locked the doors and put up signs all over that said "Heroes Work Here", while they hid inside and didn't look out the window.

Do you believe it to be heroic to hide? Or fail to take a faithful approach to helping the sick, caring for the elderly, etc.

Do you believe the medical profession should have people in it who are so stupid they didn't know they would be around sick people all the time and might catch a disease?

None of it has been any extension of God, or even basic human knowledge, nor common sense, but instead insane nonsense, let along the Holy Ghost.

I think others here have stated what she maybe really meant to say. But was pathetically unskilled at saying.
dc

I put that down largely to the governnments around the world. If you are a dissident doctor, you will struggle to find an audience outwith Telegram, and the YouTube alternatives.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 9:19 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 9:12 am

Niemand wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 8:07 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2021, 7:45 am I've never known a single person in my life, much less a doctor, who I could consider "well practiced in the healing arts". Every doctor I've ever gone to has either made my condition worse, or thrown a generic (often dangerous) pill at it. Doctors as "healers" is an absolute joke.

The irony of socialised medicine is that the doctor is geared to spend the least amount of money possible on you, but in business medicine like the States, to extract the most from you. So it's actually the opposite here. You turn up and they tell you they can't do much for you.

I've encountered good and bad doctors. A decent doctor should at least be able to put your mind at ease or have a good 'bedside manner". Some doctors do have more sense. I knew one years ago who pointed out basic things like hospital patients should have views of gardens etc instead of brick walls.

It's pretty pathetic here, but on the rare occasions I go to the doctor, I get told to lose weight, exercise, stop smoking, stop drinking etc, all off a checklist. But they never provide a proper weight loss or dietary plan, and I've told them repeatedly I don't smoke or drink. I've also told them that I can't do a lot of gym training due to a shoulder injury from years back.

I contracted an ear infection in April/May. As an experiment, I let it correct itself. It took exactly the same time to sorted as it had on a previous occasion with medication.

Walk for 2 hours a day. You will lose weight.

I was doing that most of last year. The one problem was that I went through a lot of shoe leather and couldn't buy new ones over lockdown very easily! I was having to repair my own shoes and not very successfully.

I recommend investing in a good pair of walking boots.