Polygamy = Adultery

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TheDuke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by TheDuke »

Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 8:04 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 7:26 pm
Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 7:24 pm I used to. But the church’s lies woke me up.
I guess that is ok there is a lot of "woke" going around these days.
Yeah and the church is pretty woke caving to every Babylonian trend. That’s what jolted me out of that silly trance.
I know I shouldn't respond here. But, now that you said you once believed in Joseph Smith and that was my initial put that you said you don't believe in the restoration at all. I guess I cannot see how anyone with a testimony of the restoration could lose it because of RMN and such? I don't believe you. Sorry, but I can see leaving the current church over COVID, but if you don't believe in JS due to RMN you must never have really believed. IMO.

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cab
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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Juliet wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:37 am
cab wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:49 am
Juliet wrote: January 31st, 2023, 4:31 am
cab wrote: November 19th, 2021, 7:41 am


I believe there is a mystery in polygamy. Why has it popped up so often among the Lord’s covenant people? What is always the result - hardship? What can we learn?

Perhaps it goes back to Adam and Eve (just as Adam was beguiled to partake of a something forbidden so that “man may be”, so did Abraham and Jacob enter into unsanctioned unions. Perhaps it goes all the way back to the watchers (exalted beings who went into unsanctioned unions). David too acted as a watcher with Bathsheba and went in unto her and “partook. I wonder if God’s people partaking in polygamy over time have made them unwitting participants in a type of sacramental re-enactment of the original fall of the Garden…

Just my thoughts
That is exactly what I think happened. Eve was raped after stupidly putting trust in her brother the serpent. Because he was her brother, she stupidly didn't think he meant her any harm. And after he did harm her;, he told Adam - guess what, your wife isn't faithful to you! And not only that, but nor is God...because why would God create a helpmeet for you that isn't even faithful to you? And Adam ate the fruit of that serpent.... which became the beginning of hating mankind because we were unable to obey God. And so all of humanity keeps repeating this trauma. We were supposed to forgive each other and heal this broken covenant because it is made to be everlasting!..We were supposed to trust God knew what He was doing when He put us in the divine order of eternal marriage such that if something tried to destroy it; it would fail. Believing that his own wife didn't desire in her heart to be faithful to him was a lie from the serpent, a lie that caused Adam to fall. A lie over which humanity has yet to achieve victory.

I am so grateful there are good fathers out there like you that see the truth, that innocent women ought to be protected! Their honor defended!

I’m going to have to ponder on this Juliet. I think there may be something to what you’ve said here. Let me try to say why I think so.

I have received, at one point in time, a clear flash of understanding about Eden that I’ve had to ponder. It is that every “new world” perhaps is born when a higher being transgresses and then condescends to a telestial world and that this Adam and Eve have posterity that can be redeemed, with their posterity being of a lower station of glory, but through “Adam” and his fall and eventual redemption, that they (the children) might be redeemed when he (the father) is redeemed through the means prepared, which is always through Christ (the Father).

I say this to say that every telestial world that comes into being through a transgression in a higher world (terrestrial world) is always via a different transgression, with every transgression from God’s command results in a fall…

But in this case, of Adam and Eve, what was the transgression? Maybe, Juliet, like you said, it was adultery. Maybe a celestial being (Lucifer) came down and “watched” Eve and beguiled her into an unsanctioned union… And Eve offered Adam the same (like Sarah offering Hagar to Abram)… And thus they know for themselves between good and evil, having partaken of the fruit of the “tree of transgression”… I think it should be called the “tree of transgression” which stands opposite the “tree of life”.

And that is why i ponder the question of polygamy among Gods’s people…. It’s almost like it’s an Eden-like sacrament of what caused the fall in the first place… a ritualized adultery that Satan made appear liken it was the “only way” to be like Father…. I lie that God’s people have been beguiled into throughout this particular round of creation… which is why the “law of chastity” is given such a high priority in our temple ceremony- which is meant to represent our redemption from the mistake made in Eden.
Your idea is fascinating and I agree with this concept that polygamy was a repeat of the trauma of the Garden of Eden, where Adam thought it was God's will for his wife to be beguiled since God created Eve and Eve was beguiled. He could easily be confused by Lucifer to think God wanted this bad thing to happen to Eve, because Lucifer would have made Adam think she consented to it; when really he had tricked her, and misused her naive trust such that Eve had no way of defending herself since God told her not to have anything to do with the snake, and she thought; surely I can trust my own brother! And because she disobeyed God she had no defense; even though it was never in her heart to commit adultery. Then when Lucifer put it into men's hearts to abuse women, women accepted it and felt like they deserved it because they trusted the wrong source. Like how a kid would trust her brother instead of mom and dad. So then God sent us the real older brother, whom we can trust, who will not lead us astray.

Isaiah 54 1
"Sing, O barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says the LORD.

I don't think it is desired or necessary to create fallen telestial worlds through committing adultery; but it must happen because we have free will and mistakes and mess-ups occur in that environment. There are even those who get it in their minds to purposely try to thwart God's work, to compete with it or try to better it, or just plain test it to see if it can be destroyed. (Cough. mRNA technology. Cough).

And when it happens, do you think God is going to forsake us? Or does he find a way to adopt us back; to "baptize" us back so we are not lost forever.

I also believe the tree of knowledge, as you said, a tree of transgression, can be called a tree of illusion. Because knowledge is not truth. You can have a knowledge that 2+2=5, but that knowledge won't get you very far in the real world.
Interesting. I wonder why you think Eve fell through adultery? Was it with Satan home self or an emissary seeking to be like Satan? Was this just with Eve or with several called Eve? Did Eve(s) commit this act with several fallen angels (fallen Sons of God) who looked on her (namely celestial beings who came and beguiled terrestrial Eves?
If this is the case, why are men so prone to seek adultery and multiple partners compared to women?

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Mamabear »

TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 8:11 pm
Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 8:04 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 7:26 pm
Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 7:24 pm I used to. But the church’s lies woke me up.
I guess that is ok there is a lot of "woke" going around these days.
Yeah and the church is pretty woke caving to every Babylonian trend. That’s what jolted me out of that silly trance.
I know I shouldn't respond here. But, now that you said you once believed in Joseph Smith and that was my initial put that you said you don't believe in the restoration at all. I guess I cannot see how anyone with a testimony of the restoration could lose it because of RMN and such? I don't believe you. Sorry, but I can see leaving the current church over COVID, but if you don't believe in JS due to RMN you must never have really believed. IMO.
No. That is not what happened.
I will not explain only to be torn down by you.

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TheDuke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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Just food for thought about the OT. I don't think that in the OT and even in the NT in Jesus' time that men could commit adultery. If I am wrong, show me a scripture, specifically about adultery, not a vague one. I'm not saying a man cannot commit adultery, what I'm saying is that it seems only women were held. Look as Jesus and the adulterer, no mention of the John's. Look at Judah and his daughter in law. Look at David and Bathsheba, where he gets in trouble for murder. Ruth and Boaz, etc...

I feel that Moses law wasn't about sex and purity. It was about genealogy and birthright. It was about who gets the father's land and possessions. About who takes care of the parents. About orderly transition of ownership (probate) without war. Morals seem to be added later, and with good reason I feel, but in the day. It was about property and lineage, so a man with another woman didn't affect that, but a married woman with another man (not the owner) put the property and jeopardy. Just food for thought, not that I have a dog in the hunt.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:04 am Just food for thought about the OT. I don't think that in the OT and even in the NT in Jesus' time that men could commit adultery. If I am wrong, show me a scripture, specifically about adultery, not a vague one. I'm not saying a man cannot commit adultery, what I'm saying is that it seems only women were held. Look as Jesus and the adulterer, no mention of the John's. Look at Judah and his daughter in law. Look at David and Bathsheba, where he gets in trouble for murder. Ruth and Boaz, etc...

I feel that Moses law wasn't about sex and purity. It was about genealogy and birthright. It was about who gets the father's land and possessions. About who takes care of the parents. About orderly transition of ownership (probate) without war. Morals seem to be added later, and with good reason I feel, but in the day. It was about property and lineage, so a man with another woman didn't affect that, but a married woman with another man (not the owner) put the property and jeopardy. Just food for thought, not that I have a dog in the hunt.
What do you mean they couldn't commit adultery? We're talking about men here... do you think they were any different than men today. Just look at King David.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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For those of you who believe Joseph was a liar and hypocrite (oh, sorry a "polygamist"), have you studied what he and his family (Hyrum/Emma) taught on the matter while they were alive?

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TheDuke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:10 am
What do you mean they couldn't commit adultery? We're talking about men here... do you think they were any different than men today. Just look at King David.
I wasn't saying they couldn't commit adultery and BTW it never talks about David committing adultery in the OT or NT, but his murder, then he was rewarded as having the lineage for Jesus. I'm saying it appears that for men to have sex with another woman, married or not, does not seem to be considered a crime against the law or religion. Whether or not they committed adultery by their standard is my question, not by our standard as defined in D&C 132.

Feel free to disagree. I'm not stating doctrine. I'm just saying there is no account of any man being accused of adultery in the OT or NT to my knowledge. And the story of Judah and Ruth and Boaz, are great examples.

Interesting there was a TV show about Mysteries of the Bible. It is being repeated on a channel at times. They had an episode on sex. and showed that the only commandments, directly about sex in the OT were about not spilling your seed on the ground. Everything else wasn't about the actual sex but about the marriage for legal purposes. BTW I didn't do any follow on research and am just pointing it out to show many scholars see it the same way. LDS and many current Christians that want to put 21st century (sorry not sure what they are today, but say last century's) morals in ancient moral statements are on thin ice.

Please show me an OT example of some man being accused or punished for adultery.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:22 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:10 am
What do you mean they couldn't commit adultery? We're talking about men here... do you think they were any different than men today. Just look at King David.
I wasn't saying they couldn't commit adultery and BTW it never talks about David committing adultery in the OT or NT, but his murder, then he was rewarded as having the lineage for Jesus. I'm saying it appears that for men to have sex with another woman, married or not, does not seem to be considered a crime against the law or religion. Whether or not they committed adultery by their standard is my question, not by our standard as defined in D&C 132.

Feel free to disagree. I'm not stating doctrine. I'm just saying there is no account of any man being accused of adultery in the OT or NT to my knowledge. And the story of Judah and Ruth and Boaz, are great examples.

Interesting there was a TV show about Mysteries of the Bible. It is being repeated on a channel at times. They had an episode on sex. and showed that the only commandments, directly about sex in the OT were about not spilling your seed on the ground. Everything else wasn't about the actual sex but about the marriage for legal purposes. BTW I didn't do any follow on research and am just pointing it out to show many scholars see it the same way. LDS and many current Christians that want to put 21st century (sorry not sure what they are today, but say last century's) morals in ancient moral statements are on thin ice.

Please show me an OT example of some man being accused or punished for adultery.
David committed adultery. God punished him. The end.

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TheDuke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:36 am
Please show me an OT example of some man being accused or punished for adultery.
David committed adultery. God punished him. The end.
[/quote]

Your claim. Show me. and show me from OT. Because I said (now for the THIRD TIME) the bible, specifically the OT, but OK if you find a NT verse is the basis.

Waiting for your OT or even NT chapter and verse.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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TheDuke wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:45 am Your claim. Show me. and show me from OT. Because I said (now for the THIRD TIME) the bible, specifically the OT, but OK if you find a NT verse is the basis.

Waiting for your OT or even NT chapter and verse.
You don't think David has sex with Bathsheba?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm If I didn't understand the location of the street or the circumstances I would absolutely need clarification..
It wasn't the street name I was emphasizing, it was the "turning left". Do you need clarification on what turning left is? Better yet, here is some plain English. Go outside your front door and face north. Would you need that to be clarified?

Just as a thought exercise, can you think of any other abomination that can be completely flipped into a super righteous act? I look forward to seeing your list.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:13 am For those of you who believe Joseph was a liar and hypocrite (oh, sorry a "polygamist"), have you studied what he and his family (Hyrum/Emma) taught on the matter while they were alive?
Yes. His own brother William said he was a polygamist. His own son Joseph concluded he was, despite what Emma told him.

All those outside of Brigham and his "secret chamber" state Jospeh was a polygamist:

Sidney Rigdon
Oliver Cowdery
William Marks
William Law
William Smith
James Strange
Lyman Wight

All enemies of BY, by the way.

...and every other reputable man and all non-reputable men. Everyone in the world, except Emma and Hyrum, but Hyrum died with Joseph.

Joseph offered himself as an intercessor just as Moses did:

"Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin."

Joseph and Oliver started this same atonement offering for the people in the Kirtland temple, which process Joseph and Hyrum continued with their deaths. They took upon themselves the sins of the people, which resulted in them acting out the sins. Yes, Joseph lied, but only because he interceded to spare the saints from immediate judgement.

Intercessor prophets do far more for their people than do prophets. This elevates Joseph higher than both sides of the polygamy debate.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:52 pm Joseph and Oliver started this same atonement offering for the people in the Kirtland temple, which process Joseph and Hyrum continued with their deaths. They took upon themselves the sins of the people, which resulted in them acting out the sins. Yes, Joseph lied, but only because he interceded to spare the saints from immediate judgement.
I disagree. I believe he was a man of far greater integrity.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:58 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:52 pm Joseph and Oliver started this same atonement offering for the people in the Kirtland temple, which process Joseph and Hyrum continued with their deaths. They took upon themselves the sins of the people, which resulted in them acting out the sins. Yes, Joseph lied, but only because he interceded to spare the saints from immediate judgement.
I disagree. I believe he was a man of far greater integrity.
There is no far greater integrity than offering yourself up for your people!

Are you simply unfamiliar with what an intercessor is? Did Moses sin against the Lord and was barred from entering the promised land? Was not Joseph like unto Moses?

If you study how God uses prophets and righteous kings as intercessors, you would likely be more open to the idea.

Also, it would be a bit hypocritical to discount all the integrity of the entire who's who of Mormonism, all the men who clearly loved Joseph. Sidney despised and spoke against polygamy to the very end. Why would he add support to a principle he hated?

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:11 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:58 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 12:52 pm Joseph and Oliver started this same atonement offering for the people in the Kirtland temple, which process Joseph and Hyrum continued with their deaths. They took upon themselves the sins of the people, which resulted in them acting out the sins. Yes, Joseph lied, but only because he interceded to spare the saints from immediate judgement.
I disagree. I believe he was a man of far greater integrity.
There is no far greater integrity than offering yourself up for your people!

Are you simply unfamiliar with what an intercessor is? Did Moses sin against the Lord and was barred from entering the promised land? Was not Joseph like unto Moses?

If you study how God uses prophets and righteous kings as intercessors, you would likely be more open to the idea.
Ah, that's right. We've talked about this before. I don't believe your line of reasoning at all.

"Ok, I'm going to commit an abomination as an intercessory offering for the sins of this people..." —unknown god

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:30 pm "Ok, I'm going to commit an abomination as an intercessory offering for the sins of this people..." —unknown god
That's not fair because he may have simply taught the principle or only taught it as sealings without committing the abominable act itself. We don't know. I'm happy to err on the side that most vindicates him.

Instead of saying you don't agree, it would be helpful if you gave what your own definition is of an intercessory prophet. How do you see the role of such a prophet?

Now, if you are attempting to outright deny that such a thing exists in the Bible, that would be a different story.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:42 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:30 pm "Ok, I'm going to commit an abomination as an intercessory offering for the sins of this people..." —unknown god
That's not fair because he may have simply taught the principle or only taught it as sealings without committing the abominable act itself. We don't know. I'm happy to err on the side that most vindicates him.

Instead of saying you don't agree, it would be helpful if you gave what your own definition is of an intercessory prophet. How do you see the role of such a prophet?

Now, if you are attempting to outright deny that such a thing exists in the Bible, that would be a different story.
I think he was a prophet, and corrupt men killed him. No need for the masochism/sacrificial offering stuff. He was murdered. End of story... for now.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Juliet »

cab wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:39 pm
Juliet wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:37 am
cab wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:49 am
Juliet wrote: January 31st, 2023, 4:31 am

That is exactly what I think happened. Eve was raped after stupidly putting trust in her brother the serpent. Because he was her brother, she stupidly didn't think he meant her any harm. And after he did harm her;, he told Adam - guess what, your wife isn't faithful to you! And not only that, but nor is God...because why would God create a helpmeet for you that isn't even faithful to you? And Adam ate the fruit of that serpent.... which became the beginning of hating mankind because we were unable to obey God. And so all of humanity keeps repeating this trauma. We were supposed to forgive each other and heal this broken covenant because it is made to be everlasting!..We were supposed to trust God knew what He was doing when He put us in the divine order of eternal marriage such that if something tried to destroy it; it would fail. Believing that his own wife didn't desire in her heart to be faithful to him was a lie from the serpent, a lie that caused Adam to fall. A lie over which humanity has yet to achieve victory.

I am so grateful there are good fathers out there like you that see the truth, that innocent women ought to be protected! Their honor defended!

I’m going to have to ponder on this Juliet. I think there may be something to what you’ve said here. Let me try to say why I think so.

I have received, at one point in time, a clear flash of understanding about Eden that I’ve had to ponder. It is that every “new world” perhaps is born when a higher being transgresses and then condescends to a telestial world and that this Adam and Eve have posterity that can be redeemed, with their posterity being of a lower station of glory, but through “Adam” and his fall and eventual redemption, that they (the children) might be redeemed when he (the father) is redeemed through the means prepared, which is always through Christ (the Father).

I say this to say that every telestial world that comes into being through a transgression in a higher world (terrestrial world) is always via a different transgression, with every transgression from God’s command results in a fall…

But in this case, of Adam and Eve, what was the transgression? Maybe, Juliet, like you said, it was adultery. Maybe a celestial being (Lucifer) came down and “watched” Eve and beguiled her into an unsanctioned union… And Eve offered Adam the same (like Sarah offering Hagar to Abram)… And thus they know for themselves between good and evil, having partaken of the fruit of the “tree of transgression”… I think it should be called the “tree of transgression” which stands opposite the “tree of life”.

And that is why i ponder the question of polygamy among Gods’s people…. It’s almost like it’s an Eden-like sacrament of what caused the fall in the first place… a ritualized adultery that Satan made appear liken it was the “only way” to be like Father…. I lie that God’s people have been beguiled into throughout this particular round of creation… which is why the “law of chastity” is given such a high priority in our temple ceremony- which is meant to represent our redemption from the mistake made in Eden.
Your idea is fascinating and I agree with this concept that polygamy was a repeat of the trauma of the Garden of Eden, where Adam thought it was God's will for his wife to be beguiled since God created Eve and Eve was beguiled. He could easily be confused by Lucifer to think God wanted this bad thing to happen to Eve, because Lucifer would have made Adam think she consented to it; when really he had tricked her, and misused her naive trust such that Eve had no way of defending herself since God told her not to have anything to do with the snake, and she thought; surely I can trust my own brother! And because she disobeyed God she had no defense; even though it was never in her heart to commit adultery. Then when Lucifer put it into men's hearts to abuse women, women accepted it and felt like they deserved it because they trusted the wrong source. Like how a kid would trust her brother instead of mom and dad. So then God sent us the real older brother, whom we can trust, who will not lead us astray.

Isaiah 54 1
"Sing, O barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says the LORD.

I don't think it is desired or necessary to create fallen telestial worlds through committing adultery; but it must happen because we have free will and mistakes and mess-ups occur in that environment. There are even those who get it in their minds to purposely try to thwart God's work, to compete with it or try to better it, or just plain test it to see if it can be destroyed. (Cough. mRNA technology. Cough).

And when it happens, do you think God is going to forsake us? Or does he find a way to adopt us back; to "baptize" us back so we are not lost forever.

I also believe the tree of knowledge, as you said, a tree of transgression, can be called a tree of illusion. Because knowledge is not truth. You can have a knowledge that 2+2=5, but that knowledge won't get you very far in the real world.
Interesting. I wonder why you think Eve fell through adultery? Was it with Satan home self or an emissary seeking to be like Satan? Was this just with Eve or with several called Eve? Did Eve(s) commit this act with several fallen angels (fallen Sons of God) who looked on her (namely celestial beings who came and beguiled terrestrial Eves?
If this is the case, why are men so prone to seek adultery and multiple partners compared to women?
I don't think she fell through adultery. I think she fell by trusting Lucifer was her brother and would not take advantage of her. When she did trust him to have a conversation; he used that as an opportunity to rape her. And after he did, he told Adam she consented to it.

Then Lucifer got all of mankind to hate Eve, (and by default also themselves - Satanism = the doctrine of self-hatred)...to see women as less than including making women see themselves as "less than" for "committing adultery", and no one believed that she didn't consent to adultery in her heart. It was because of a loophole Satan found in the legalese of the contract...something he had said to her before he raped her that paralyzed her and made it impossible for her to defend herself mentally from his argument; which was created to get her to stop trusting in God's infinite love.

It was a sneaky; double bind argument. Which said if she didn't have sex with him, then God's love is not infinite. (Because God's infinite love should be powerful enough to remain infinite in the face of our mistakes when we transgress God's law). During a moment's pause while she tried to make sense of the logic he just displayed before her; Lucifer took her pause as a legal consent to commit adultery. The event was traumatic and she didn't have time to react or defend herself.

She consented to hearing what he had to say; and when she did, she got a taste of snake venom. It was her innocence and her willingness to trust someone that should not be trusted that got her in trouble. And likewise, it was Adam who trusted Lucifer's lies over his wife's inherent innocence, since he told Adam she committed adultery with him, tempting Adam to not trust in the love of his wife, and because Adam had insecurities; he was apt to believe the serpent, whose lies made Adam feel like he was not handsome or good enough to have a wife want to commit to him only. And because of the loophole, Eve could not defend herself. Not only did Adam believe the lies of the snake telling him Eve wasn't a faithful wife; but then Adam thought that this must be God's will for him to have a wife who was fallen At this point; Eve was traumatized and needing time and love from a good husband to heal. She wasn't able to bond with Adam the way it is supposed to be, because of the rape trauma. She needed time to heal. Instead of sticking it out and healing the trauma...they eventually separated. Adam needed more women than her to bond with, and the reptilian serpent used Adam's DNA to create other wives for Adam that would sexually satisfy him because his wife was "broken". Besides...if the wife can commit adultery, why not the husband? So then we have Lilith, who was not the first wife, like scripture says; but the second, who was given to Adam just like Hagar was given to Abraham because the first wife was not "good enough". And this logical fallicy has caused the everlasting covenant of marriage to be broken throughout history for thousands of years.

How do I know this? I have been playing dot to dot with revelation about Adam and Eve since I was a little girl, trying to make sense of it. I believe this version of the story connects all the dots. It only makes sense that this major trauma would repeat through history, through David and Bathsheba, Solomon and the queens of Egypt, Abraham and Hagar,and Joseph and Emma. Not only have husbands not been faithful to their wives, but they have done so with the consent of their wives! It goes to show how low self esteem women have to put up with it, because they don't have the self respect they should to even hope for a faithful husband, again because of the lies of the devil who tells them they are unworthy to hope for this blessing, the very blessing which is the promise of God!
Last edited by Juliet on February 1st, 2023, 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Sarah
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Sarah »

It could be that Joseph used his privilege of sealing plural marriages, as a way to sustain his loyal followers in their faith in him. I'm thinking of William Clayton's story. His reasoning may have been similar to how relieved he felt when others saw the plates and angel for themselves. He wanted others around him to experience the same privilege so he was not alone. Many he tested first because of their calling (and perhaps commandment) such as his apostles by asking for their wives, but all for the purpose of creating an inner circle of men who could eventually enter into covenant one with another, in the Order of Enoch. Joseph knew that that was the goal. But many in his inner circle were not liking the way he was going about getting there, in the way he chose women to be sealed to himself first. I think he was justified, because he had the keys of this power and the privilege of sealing anyone to anyone, but perhaps not wise in how he tried to go about sealing others to himself and to one another.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:04 pm I think he was a prophet, and corrupt men killed him. No need for the masochism/sacrificial offering stuff. He was murdered. End of story... for now.
So basically you're just remaining closed minded. The man who studies the Nemhamah Record refuses to study the OT. Stop using history to explain history. Use the scriptures to explain history. Many prophets have spoken of a future prophet who would "betray the wife of his youth" and cause "many to stumble at the law" and would yet still "retain the mercy of the Lord". Most of the OT is about our day.

I still love you though. :D

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Bronco73idi »

I love simple math….. this thread is simple math…

Abraham = adultery

Jacob = adultery

Jospeh (Jesus stepdad) = adultery

blitzinstripes
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by blitzinstripes »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:42 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:30 pm "Ok, I'm going to commit an abomination as an intercessory offering for the sins of this people..." —unknown god
That's not fair because he may have simply taught the principle or only taught it as sealings without committing the abominable act itself. We don't know. I'm happy to err on the side that most vindicates him.

Instead of saying you don't agree, it would be helpful if you gave what your own definition is of an intercessory prophet. How do you see the role of such a prophet?

Now, if you are attempting to outright deny that such a thing exists in the Bible, that would be a different story.
I'll throw my theory out there. You state that an "intercessory" prophet takes upon him the sins of the people. Christ was the ultimate intercessory prophet as he literally atoned spiritually for all of mankind. Moses bore a physical punishment of not being allowed to enter the Promised Land. But that didn't make him personally guilty of the same sins as the people, and especially not in the case of Christ.

I will entertain the idea that Joseph was martyred (sacrificed) due to the wickedness of the church (polygamy) and his blood stands as a testimony against their/ our wickedness. Not that he himself was a polygamist. The rampant adultery (polygamy) in the church was ultimately responsible for Joseph's murder, and could be possibly interpreted as an intercession by Joseph. He knew he would be killed, but perhaps he believed the Lord would accept his blood and forgive the church. (Although I personally view it as further condemnation.)

Although outside of the atonement of Christ, Mormon doctrine states that aside from Christ, the rest of us will be punished for our OWN sins and NOT for Adam's (or anyone else's transgressions).

The intercessory thing outside of Christ, is a sketchy argument at best.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Bronco73idi »

More math

2100 years ago there was 4 prominent civilizations in the “known world”, 2 practice polygamy (one of them was only for the rich) 2 practice monogamy. 1 practice monotheism and 3 practice polytheism.

Can you guess the order? (Sarcasm).

blitzinstripes
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by blitzinstripes »

I believe we can easily search and find statements from Joseph Smith to the effect that he was clean of the blood of this generation. Which would disqualify your previous arguments that he was burdened with the guilt and sin of the church.

I don't believe that martyrdom is necessarily an intercession. The blood sacrifices of the Mosaic (and earlier gospel dispensations) priests were all symbolic in nature and pointed to Christ. The scriptures are very clear that only Christ's own blood brings salvation and none other. Not Moses. Not Abinadi. Not Joseph Smith. Mortal prophets don't cut it.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:27 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:04 pm I think he was a prophet, and corrupt men killed him. No need for the masochism/sacrificial offering stuff. He was murdered. End of story... for now.
So basically you're just remaining closed minded. The man who studies the Nemhamah Record refuses to study the OT. Stop using history to explain history. Use the scriptures to explain history. Many prophets have spoken of a future prophet who would "betray the wife of his youth" and cause "many to stumble at the law" and would yet still "retain the mercy of the Lord". Most of the OT is about our day.

I still love you though. :D
I've studied this topic enough. Whatever the hell happened in the early days of the church was wrong. Plain, simple, done. I don't care to explore the topic further. If Joseph espoused it, I'll condemn him just the same. It was wrong, a true abomination. And no, I don't buy into your "oh, you just need to study the OT further, stop being ignorant, blah, blah, blah." Ok. I disagree with you.

Love you too!

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