Polygamy = Adultery

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Locked
User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4511

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:07 am And BTW they don't mention others once, as you say
I didn't say they mention it, I said they hint at it. For example, when Sherem says to Jacob that he sought much opportunity to speak with him. A small group fifty people living together doesn't require much opportunity when they live and work together. Also, it says "there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem." If he came among them, he was an outsider. If he was an outsider, he had a people he belonged to who were outsiders. It also mentions he had a perfect knowledge of their language. Why wouldn't he if it was his own language.

Many such hints.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4511

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:40 am
Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:49 am
Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 4:12 pm My main problem with your argument is that men and women just aren’t equal, and there’s no point trying to argue that they are. The Scriptures are unequivocal on this, and so was the Prophet Joseph Smith.
This is just insane, I can't believe you actually believe this. Women aren't equal to men, so it's okay that they are sexual war trophies with no say in the matter.

The idea that we believe the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly has just never entered your mind, has it? Scribes can throw in all sorts of garbage, and you just suck it right up as if Joseph should have never uttered those words.
Big leap from “unequal” to “sexual war trophies”. The specifics of the argument wasn’t the point.
Ok, let's hear your definition of unequal. Either way, you're saying women are below men.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4511

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:43 am
Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:39 am
Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:31 pm Deuteronomy 21
10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Luke, use a little discernment and honestly look at whether those are the Lord's words.
This strikes at the root of all your arguments. On the one hand, you say go to the Scriptures, on the other you write off anything in Scripture you don’t want to hear as not being actually from God.

You are simply a hypocrite.

On this basis, anyone can just wave away any Scriptures that they don’t like, and then we end up with homosexuals saying that their actions are right (“‘Homosexuality is an abomination’??? Are they really the words of the Lord????”)

This is sick and pathetic.
Luke, I'm not waving away scripture. I'm saying to apply what we already know and go from there. We already know that there are translation errors. You giving complete amnesty to anything written means you are guaranteed to get some things wrong. I'm simply saying that if something seems wrong, if it seems to contradict what we know the Savior has said, then it is wise to question it.

Not all biblical scripture is true scripture. We get true scripture from Seers, not secular scribes. In the works of JS we have the words of the Savior and they do not match that garbage verse you posted.

You are unwise to treat all scripture as the inerrant word of God. God allowed us to have gray areas so we could practice discernment. No one would learn discernment if we were handed black and white.

Atrasado
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1773

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Atrasado »

You stinkers, knock it off!!! Abraham married multiple wives, Jacob did, and Moses did also. How many wives do you think the Savior had? It sure seems like Mary and Martha treated him like their husband. There's a lot of evidence that Mary Magdelene was the Savior's wife, which is probably why he appeared to her first after his resurrection. The prophet Nathan gave many of David's wives to him. The Book of Mormon plainly states that if the Lord wants to He can command polygamy to raise up a righteous people. There isn't a single verse in the Bible that says polygamy is against God's laws. Isaiah plainly states that polygamy will return before the Second Coming. You are wresting the scriptures and need to humble yourselves before God.

One of the big issues many of you have is presentism. Judging others for what you think are sins, even though God didn't so define them, is a sin. If Brigham Young was such a terrible man, how did he experience so many spiritual experiences? Doesn't it read in the Book of Mormon,
And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity. (3 Nephi 8:1)
So how do you explain that? The only way you can is by stating that all of those pioneer accounts of miracles and gifts of the Spirit are lies and that all of the pioneers were liars. Keep going down that path and you end up in the ridiculous position that Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Willard Richards murdered Joseph Smith, even though there isn't a shred of evidence for that asinine theory.

Yes, there are those who practiced polygamy immorally, just as there are many immoral monogamists. But polygamy in and of itself is not necessarily immoral. We need to repent and follow God, even when it doesn't fit within our narrow, messed up, mortal sense of morality.

Sorry if I've been blunt, but the Lord is not pleased with this nonsense. There are and were serious problems in the Church, but practicing polygamy wasn't one of them. This discussion has been going on too long and many of you should know better.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by iWriteStuff »

Fellas, fellas, please stop fighting. I'm sure there's wives enough for both of you in the Celestial Kingdom. Have some patience and think on your future fun rather than current contention.

User avatar
Gadianton Slayer
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6551
Location: A Sound Mind

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:52 pm I'm sure there's wives enough for both of you in the Celestial Kingdom.
Unless the most righteous take them all 😔

User avatar
JandD6572
captain of 100
Posts: 292

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JandD6572 »

Good Heavens, and people wonder why I left this church. the mockery everyone is making against one another, someone earlier up in this mile long thread, something about being a laughing stock to the world. I can see why. I will stick Jesus Christ, who changed those old laws to love and compassion, not kill and be killed, take and retake, enslave woman and mate at will. Christ did away with all those things, in his "perfect" gospel. Yes sir! I will stick with Jesus, the Bible and rid myself of this Mormon indoctrination @#!!$#!%. God seems to be a comedian, bringing forth the Book of Mormon, the supposed most true and correct book on the earth, and then have this "church" almost instantly, begin practicing the very things the book taught against. The Old testament was the old law, why? of course they did barbaric things, because they couldn't comprehend living a fruitful life. Jesus changed all that when he began his ministries. That is good enough for me. Yes, no wonder why the Mormon church is laughed at, just like our entire country is laughed at now a days. the powers to be in both groups, this church and government, are about as corrupt and wicked as they can get. greed and power hungry,

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:54 am
Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:40 am
Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:49 am
Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 4:12 pm My main problem with your argument is that men and women just aren’t equal, and there’s no point trying to argue that they are. The Scriptures are unequivocal on this, and so was the Prophet Joseph Smith.
This is just insane, I can't believe you actually believe this. Women aren't equal to men, so it's okay that they are sexual war trophies with no say in the matter.

The idea that we believe the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly has just never entered your mind, has it? Scribes can throw in all sorts of garbage, and you just suck it right up as if Joseph should have never uttered those words.
Big leap from “unequal” to “sexual war trophies”. The specifics of the argument wasn’t the point.
Ok, let's hear your definition of unequal. Either way, you're saying women are below men.
Obviously… that’s what unequal means.

Doesn’t mean they are barred from achieving Celestial Glory or any degree of progression. But everyone has their place, and it isn’t a woman’s place to take the position of a man. There are clearly gender differences.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by iWriteStuff »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:55 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:52 pm I'm sure there's wives enough for both of you in the Celestial Kingdom.
Unless the most righteous take them all 😔
My apologies in advance! :twisted:

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:55 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:52 pm I'm sure there's wives enough for both of you in the Celestial Kingdom.
Unless the most righteous take them all 😔
I’ll leave a few for ya 😉

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4511

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:09 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:54 am
Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:40 am
Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:49 am
This is just insane, I can't believe you actually believe this. Women aren't equal to men, so it's okay that they are sexual war trophies with no say in the matter.

The idea that we believe the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly has just never entered your mind, has it? Scribes can throw in all sorts of garbage, and you just suck it right up as if Joseph should have never uttered those words.
Big leap from “unequal” to “sexual war trophies”. The specifics of the argument wasn’t the point.
Ok, let's hear your definition of unequal. Either way, you're saying women are below men.
Obviously… that’s what unequal means.

Doesn’t mean they are barred from achieving Celestial Glory or any degree of progression. But everyone has their place, and it isn’t a woman’s place to take the position of a man. There are clearly gender differences.
So, God is not a respecter of persons, but he is a respecter of gender?

Why do you always place JS quotes above the words of Christ?

and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

A male comes unto Christ and is rewarded with as many virgins as he desires and the women is rewarded with being one of those virgins. Doesn't sound alike to me.

By the way, have you had a chance to think about the actual count that you desire? Care to share the number?

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15315
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Wow... the thread didn't get locked down. I was honestly surprised.

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Mamabear »

It’s unfortunate that there will be no sex after we die. So for all the wanna be polygamists you’re in for some disappointment.
In fact, better start the polygamy now since it won’t happen later.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by iWriteStuff »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:39 pm Wow... the thread didn't get locked down. I was honestly surprised.
There's still time, ya know....

Seems money and women are the two topics most likely to see guys fighting. Whodathunkit.

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:12 am
JLHPROF wrote: January 30th, 2023, 4:31 pm I don't know why it's so hard to put Jacob 2 in a little context.
Plain English doesn't need context. If I tell you to turn left at Washington Street, would you ask me to clarify what is meant by turning left?

The English shows a categorical condemnation.

Are we really suppose to believe that 500 wives was the abomination, but 50 is when it is God's law? As if the number is the issue. Do you really think the Nephites amassed the same number of wives as David and Soloman or is it much more likely that they had one or two extra? I highly doubt a single Nephite has more than 10. The context clearly condemns the practice, not the number of wives.
Of course context is needed. To your example there are over 5,000 "Washington Streets" in America.
If I didn't understand the location of the street or the circumstances I would absolutely need clarification.

And Solomon's sin in plural marriage wasn't the number of wives, it was that he multiplied them for power and they influenced him to turn from gospel principles. David's sin was shedding of innocent blood due to lust and taking a wife that wasn't given by the Lord, after God gave him wives. Jacob specifically mentions greed, power, and taking captive.
Basically, the Nephites disqualified themselves from living polygamy due to other sins, like their political heroes David and Solomon.

There is NO scriptural condemnation of Abraham, Jacob, or even David pre-Bathsheba. In all these cases these polygamists were righteous chosen vessels of God. Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15315
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:25 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.
I don’t subscribe to this “you can only do it when God says so”. I think it’s the other way around. You do it unless God says NOT to—and He will only say “No” if you are abusing that law like the Nephites were.

It’s not optional, it’s essential.

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:25 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.
Agreed. But why?
It's important to understand the why and the context.
God can never approve sin.

God commanded Nephi and others to kill so what is the sin of murder?
God told Abraham to "lie" about his relationship to Sarah.

In the stories of God giving wives to David via Nathan or Abraham and Jacob we have approval or at least no condemnation at all.
So I say again that these prophets of God, his covenant leaders, his highest priesthood holders, lived polygamy with no sin. Because polygamy isn't sinful. So what are the sins related to polygamy?

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:52 pm It’s unfortunate that there will be no sex after we die. So for all the wanna be polygamists you’re in for some disappointment.
In fact, better start the polygamy now since it won’t happen later.
Another assumption not in evidence...

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:52 pm It’s unfortunate that there will be no sex after we die.
In hell maybe.

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Mamabear »

JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:50 pm
Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:52 pm It’s unfortunate that there will be no sex after we die. So for all the wanna be polygamists you’re in for some disappointment.
In fact, better start the polygamy now since it won’t happen later.
Another assumption not in evidence...
No evidence of sex in the afterlife. Except for “enlightened” men who claim it’s a freaking reality. I’m absolutely sure Joseph and Brigham won’t be married to their plural wives popping out spirit kids or “celestial” babies. Makes absolutely zero sense.

EmmaLee
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10884

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by EmmaLee »

Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:32 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:25 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.
I don’t subscribe to this “you can only do it when God says so”. I think it’s the other way around. You do it unless God says NOT to—and He will only say “No” if you are abusing that law like the Nephites were.

It’s not optional, it’s essential.

How many wives do you currently have, Luke?

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 3:00 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:50 pm
Mamabear wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:52 pm It’s unfortunate that there will be no sex after we die. So for all the wanna be polygamists you’re in for some disappointment.
In fact, better start the polygamy now since it won’t happen later.
Another assumption not in evidence...
No evidence of sex in the afterlife. Except for “enlightened” men who claim it’s a freaking reality. I’m absolutely sure Joseph and Brigham won’t be married to their plural wives popping out spirit kids or “celestial” babies. Makes absolutely zero sense.
Then apparently you either disagree with or don't understand the entire point of the restored gospel.
God's entire existence is about creating more Gods, who then create more God's. The entire plan of the gospel from creation to atonement to resurrection is entirely about continuing the race of the Gods. It's all about God's family kingdom increasing eternally.
In every creation, in every peopled world, in all Celestial kingdoms, for eternity upon eternity. It's about progression of family.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15315
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:32 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:25 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.
I don’t subscribe to this “you can only do it when God says so”. I think it’s the other way around. You do it unless God says NOT to—and He will only say “No” if you are abusing that law like the Nephites were.

It’s not optional, it’s essential.
Ah, ask for forgiveness, not for permission.

"30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.:
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 31st, 2023, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15315
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:25 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Sorry, there's no sin in polygamy itself.
How fitting to make such a blanket statement. If this practice occurs without heavenly approval it is an abomination.
Agreed. But why?
It's important to understand the why and the context.
God can never approve sin.

God commanded Nephi and others to kill so what is the sin of murder?
God told Abraham to "lie" about his relationship to Sarah.

In the stories of God giving wives to David via Nathan or Abraham and Jacob we have approval or at least no condemnation at all.
So I say again that these prophets of God, his covenant leaders, his highest priesthood holders, lived polygamy with no sin. Because polygamy isn't sinful. So what are the sins related to polygamy?
We've gone over this before and the distinctions between Nephi and Abraham. These aren't even in the same ballpark, especially when taken into context of Mormon history. The prophet of this dispensation was actively and openly condemning the practice w/ the most condemning language.

Locked