Polygamy = Adultery

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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What was Brighams count up to…. 54?

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:20 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:48 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:42 pm I think it is interesting that we think God still condemns people for their past even after they've obtained faith ex: Sarah. She lied almost to the Lord's face, and didn't believe the Lord. The Lord dosn't "condemn" her for that. In fact she is later mentioned in the scriptures as having great faith : HEbrews 11:11By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 11By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

14Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. ....39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

God is not condemning their mistakes in the New Covenant or even the old because They did change. They obtained faith. The Old Testament often shows us the way NOT to live, but hte mercies of GOd still abound... Hebrews 12L1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

What God did for them, He can and will do for us.. if we believe. No longer let the past shackle you, but be free in the Son.
Are you saying that we shouldn’t judge their actions and the supposed doctrine Brigham taught and future leaders espoused?
In the sense of judging their actions as right or wrong- no I"m not saying we shouldn't judge actions as right or wrong, but the story between them ins't about polygamy. The story is about the mercy of God - and how mistakes can be made right. That God can turn that which was made in the flesh in to good- faith is essential. In the end we see that God saw Abraham and Sarah as righteous - regardless of what they did do, because they changed and hoped and believed and their actions were a manifestation of that faith.

In my own personal opinion, I think the idea that one "Must" practice polygamy to inherit eternal life is absurd. That is a works based approach. On the other, I also think it is absurd (Not saying you are doing this) but for us to continue to condemn poepel who practiced polygamy who may have had a change of heart afterwards. I don't think God is going to force you to divorce someone who you already are connected with. I also don't believe one can truly practice polygamy without having had a some sort of adulterous spirit in their heart, UNLESS it truly was God who commanded it. You can't tell me Jacob wasn't lusting after Rachel after having been with Leah. I mean he spent 7 more years. Again though, I've had adulterous thoughts in my own heart so I'm not going to condemn him or what he did and all the trickery involved and We know God forgave Him, just as He has forgiven me.
I freely admit we have no idea whether Brigham may have repented of his many murders, fornications and the abuses he heaped upon people he made into virtual slaves while on his deathbed, so certainly if he repented in faith and came to Christ in his last moments, his sins might be 'remembered no more' in the eternal scheme of things.

You're right that we have no right to judge the state of his soul (though I have my suspicions I admit), but we can certainly judge the evil practice itself surely, and point out the historical facts of what Brigham did. In fact, I was taught growing up that the ability to judge good from evil and choose accordingly is one of the primary purposes we're all here in mortality?

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John Tavner
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by John Tavner »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:34 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:20 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:48 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:42 pm I think it is interesting that we think God still condemns people for their past even after they've obtained faith ex: Sarah. She lied almost to the Lord's face, and didn't believe the Lord. The Lord dosn't "condemn" her for that. In fact she is later mentioned in the scriptures as having great faith : HEbrews 11:11By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 11By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

14Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. ....39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

God is not condemning their mistakes in the New Covenant or even the old because They did change. They obtained faith. The Old Testament often shows us the way NOT to live, but hte mercies of GOd still abound... Hebrews 12L1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

What God did for them, He can and will do for us.. if we believe. No longer let the past shackle you, but be free in the Son.
Are you saying that we shouldn’t judge their actions and the supposed doctrine Brigham taught and future leaders espoused?
In the sense of judging their actions as right or wrong- no I"m not saying we shouldn't judge actions as right or wrong, but the story between them ins't about polygamy. The story is about the mercy of God - and how mistakes can be made right. That God can turn that which was made in the flesh in to good- faith is essential. In the end we see that God saw Abraham and Sarah as righteous - regardless of what they did do, because they changed and hoped and believed and their actions were a manifestation of that faith.

In my own personal opinion, I think the idea that one "Must" practice polygamy to inherit eternal life is absurd. That is a works based approach. On the other, I also think it is absurd (Not saying you are doing this) but for us to continue to condemn poepel who practiced polygamy who may have had a change of heart afterwards. I don't think God is going to force you to divorce someone who you already are connected with. I also don't believe one can truly practice polygamy without having had a some sort of adulterous spirit in their heart, UNLESS it truly was God who commanded it. You can't tell me Jacob wasn't lusting after Rachel after having been with Leah. I mean he spent 7 more years. Again though, I've had adulterous thoughts in my own heart so I'm not going to condemn him or what he did and all the trickery involved and We know God forgave Him, just as He has forgiven me.
I freely admit we have no idea whether Brigham may have repented of his many murders, fornications and the abuses he heaped upon people he made into virtual slaves while on his deathbed, so certainly if he repented in faith and came to Christ in his last moments, his sins might be 'remembered no more' in the eternal scheme of things.

You're right that we have no right to judge the state of his soul (though I have my suspicions I admit), but we can certainly judge the evil practice itself surely, and point out the historical facts of what Brigham did. In fact, I was taught growing up that the ability to judge good from evil and choose accordingly is one of the primary purposes we're all here in mortality?
I don't believe that is one of our primary purposes here in mortality, but I freely admit I do not agree with a lot of church traditions in regards to "why we are here." That said yes, I do believe it is imperative for us to know God so we might be like Him in order to choose and become like Christ in this life- which includes udnerstanding good from evil- but I believe the heart has a lot more to do with it than we understand and I believe our "denying ourselves" or submission to God and bearing our cross daily has more to do with it than we understand as well. It is why God repeatedly says he doesn't judge on teh outer appearance, but hte inner.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

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Funny the Lord has told otherwise but feel free to condemn the patriarchs and Ruth and keep on with your teachings of men.it will not matter what you believe if you don’t understand the new and everlasting covenant of marriage as you will not qualify. And get your wish like those that say there is no priesthood, if Thais what you believe that is your reward. Simple solution to your concern.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by John Tavner »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:49 pm Funny the Lord has told otherwise but feel free to condemn the patriarchs and Ruth and keep on with your teachings of men.it will not matter what you believe if you don’t understand the new and everlasting covenant of marriage as you will not qualify. And get your wish like those that say there is no priesthood, if Thais what you believe that is your reward. Simple solution to your concern.
Are you responding to me?

If you are, Where is the condemnation I am placing upon anyone? if anything I am preaching mercy and grace. I don't believe Ruth committed adultery- though I understand many people take it that way and regardless her faith made her whole in the end - she is considered righteous as the scripture say. The only marriage I consider to be everlasting is my marriage to the Groom and that is the new and everlasting covenant. By His words I am a joint heir with Him to inherit all things in heavenly places. Your judgement of me and what I will receive in the afterife does not trump what Jesus said that I am co-heir with Him- as well as anyone else that believes and comes unto Him. Pretty amazing really.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by cab »

John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 7:20 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:49 pm Funny the Lord has told otherwise but feel free to condemn the patriarchs and Ruth and keep on with your teachings of men.it will not matter what you believe if you don’t understand the new and everlasting covenant of marriage as you will not qualify. And get your wish like those that say there is no priesthood, if Thais what you believe that is your reward. Simple solution to your concern.
Are you responding to me?

If you are, Where is the condemnation I am placing upon anyone? if anything I am preaching mercy and grace. I don't believe Ruth committed adultery- though I understand many people take it that way and regardless her faith made her whole in the end - she is considered righteous as the scripture say. The only marriage I consider to be everlasting is my marriage to the Groom and that is the new and everlasting covenant. By His words I am a joint heir with Him to inherit all things in heavenly places. Your judgement of me and what I will receive in the afterife does not trump what Jesus said that I am co-heir with Him- as well as anyone else that believes and comes unto Him. Pretty amazing really.

I’m sure he’s responding to me. I seem to have struck a nerve with some here who want to keep accusing me of “condemning” the patriarchs…. And now they seem to feel the need to condemn me and threaten my own salvation if I don’t repent.

I’ll make one more post to try to clarify my thoughts, but it’s not likely to appease the mob…. But I’ll try

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by cab »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:26 pm
cab wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:27 pm I’m not condemning anyone.
You stated:
cab wrote:Perhaps it goes back to Adam and Eve (just as Adam was beguiled to partake of a something forbidden so that “man may be”, so did Abraham and Jacob enter into unsanctioned unions. Perhaps it goes all the way back to the watchers (exalted beings who went into unsanctioned unions). David too acted as a watcher with Bathsheba and went in unto her and “partook. I wonder if God’s people partaking in polygamy over time have made them unwitting participants in a type of sacramental re-enactment of the original fall of the Garden…
The Watchers were under specific command of what their role was, which was to protect humanity. The Book of Enoch specifically states the Watchers lusted after mortal women (chapter 6), and that they were perfectly aware that what they were about to do was a sin, because God had laid out exactly what their roles and bounds were, and they were in violation of it.

So, you're putting Abraham and Jacob on the same level as the Watchers. Maybe I should 'chill' because you haven't spent time reading the Book of Enoch and didn't understand what you were saying. Nevertheless, to put the two patriarchs on the same level as the Watchers is either careless or very poor judgment, because what the Watchers did was most certainly condemned by God, so you're basically condemning Abraham and Jacob by the same measure. You also put them on the same level as David, who coveted after a married woman, committed adultery with her, tried to cover it up and eventually conspired to murder her husband. Nathan came to him afterward and condemned him, as did God by cursing him that his kingship would pass to another. Did God curse Abraham and Jacob?

Yet you double-down on it, tell me to chill, and people thank you for it. Man, kinda troubling. Does no one read the scriptures?

To you and TheDuke… Since you still want to accuse me of condemning holy men - which I’m not- let me explain further might I mean, I guess…

Multiple times in that statement I said “perhaps” and “I wonder”…. We know David sinned greatly… And what I’m pondering there is that David MIGHT have done something akin to a “watcher”…. Not as bad, but akin to it, as something of a cautionary tale… but because David had become of a higher estate in the “Lord’s house” as a king and steward over Gods people, he went below his station to “watch” and lust after the manner of flesh, and go in “unto her”…. And so, for a time at least, it seems, he fell from his station in the Lords “sanctuary”…

As for Abraham and Jacob…. I believe PERHAPS there is a mystery to their polygamy…. Abraham and Sarah were hasty and didn’t wait on the Lord, which I believe they repented of, which serves as a glowing example of righteousness to us who seek to “do the works of Abraham”. I’m confident to say that it wasn’t commanded to them as some high required ordinance of exaltation to “go in unto” Hagar…. So what was it?? That’s what I’m pondering…. Jacob wasn’t commanded to marry sisters…. He was BEGUILED by his father in law…. Perhaps his father in law acted in something akin to a Satan role by beguiling Jacob on the wedding night (not as bad as Satan, but in a type or shadow, perhaps)…. The Fathers, like Abraham, condescend to take the sins of the people upon them - perhaps that they may succor their people better. That is what Jehovah/ Christ did for us, in every way. Though He, unlike these other fathers, was unblemished. And while not partakingnof sin, He can perfectly succor us in our fallen state …. Moses was never allowed to enter the promised land…. Why? because of his people’s sins….
Jesus did enter the promised land… So perhaps there is something to ponder on there… And applying it to our condition, what is it about the seed of Abraham (which is all of the House of Israel) which seemed to necessitate these unsanctioned unions??? As the “fathers”, perhaps they are atoning in some way for the “children”, taking the “idols of our hearts” upon themselves as an Old Testament/tabernacle “scapegoat” type sacrifice….

I don’t know…. But the Lord, I believe, has revealed to me in small part that there is something of a mystery to his work here…

So yeah, If you think it’s rubbish, or if you believe the Lord is speaking something else to you, great! Ponder on that and take a chill pill and move on…. I’m not going to accuse you of anything… I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we both are seeing different aspects of the Lords greater things that he’s revealing to us… we all see through a glass, darkly. And no, I’m not condemning anyone - except for maybe you and I and all of apostate Israel….
Last edited by cab on January 30th, 2023, 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

This is the closet depiction that I can think of that has helped me reconcile Jacob 2. This is from the Nemenah Record. A man came from Asia who was promoting the tradition of polygamy. The people took it up with the Lord in prayer. The high priest was taken upon the Way and this is what he recorded from the Savior. (I have not updated proper nouns to reflect modern language.)
24) And these are the words He spoke unto me while upon the Way:

25) Behold, it is good that you have brought this matter unto me. Yea, I am pleased that this whole people should cry unto me for an answer concerning this thing. And they have asked me how it is that with Ahbrahm I did give unto my servant more than one wife, and also unto such as Ayahkohb. Behold, because of the diligence of this people, I shall answer this question. Wherefore, my servant, Mahnti, record these words in a book.

26) At sundry times and in diverse places, it becomes necessary to build up a nation quickly. Yea, a nation that will follow the commandments of the Aylohhihm. For, I use the nations to do my work. At those times and in those places I have given unto men more than one wife. And this is in accordance with another law which I gave unto my people Itsrahhayl.

27) It is in accordance with that law which provides for the wife of a man who dies without begetting children. Yea, according to that law, the brother of the man shall take to himself his brother’s wife, for it was deemed a reproach for a woman to be without children. And that man should bring up children unto his brother in an act of love and charity. And in the day of resurrection, when men and women are neither married nor given in marriage, that man shall take the hand of the wife of his brother and place it into the hand of his brother. In that day, he shall thank his brother for the service he has rendered unto him from out of the love of his heart.

28) Behold, this act of charity and love does justify the taking of another to wife. And it is in this vein that I do sometimes command men to take more than one wife for to bring up a righteous generation. But behold, the man may not covenant with her for eternity, for she has already covenanted with another. And the woman cannot covenant with a married man, for he is already married.

29) Behold, it is the purpose of man and of woman to follow in the footsteps of their first parents, even Ahtahn and Ayayfah, even to the very veil of heaven. And, making covenants one with another, to become sealed unto me. And when they are sealed unto me, their covenants which they have made together become binding and operable in the eternities, because the covenants are sealed unto me with the covenanters. In this way, they avail themselves of the atonement which I made through the power of the Haymehnay. Wherefore, they become like unto Ahtahn and Ayayfah, and like unto me, and like unto my Father and my Mother in Heaven. Behold, he becomes First Man and she becomes First Woman, and they are one.

30) And I say unto you, even though I justify the taking of more than one wife for to fulfill my purposes, still shall a man be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to but one woman, and a woman shall be sealed by that same Spirit to but one man. And this is the manner of marriage in the eternities, regardless of the custom of men in mortality.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I should also include the response of this man from Asia as he took the matter to the Lord in prayer:
32) Now, when I had spoken these words from the little book that I had made to record them, many people did testify that the same had come to them. Yea, the Haymehnay did confirm it upon our souls and we knew that the doctrine as the sage had recounted it to us was false.

33) And behold, when we told him of the promptings of the Spirit, and of the revelations and the visions of the Peacemaker which we had received concerning the matter, he too was troubled in his heart. And I did exhort him also to ask of the Peacemaker whether the things we had said were true. For, I could not hold him to a different standard than I did hold myself. For, having heard of this doctrine from him, and taking it not for granted that it was right or wrong, I did seek the confirmation of the Haymehnay. Wherefore, I did exhort him to do the same.

34) And he did retire from us for the space of many hours. And when he did return to the council, he bowed himself low before us and begged for the forgiveness of all the people. And these are his words unto the council:

35) Today I have learned a great lesson. I have learned that the wisdom of the wise cannot compare to the gifts of the Spirit. For the practice of my people of taking as many wives as one can support is a corrupt practice, if only because of the tendency it might cause for a man to concentrate on the things of this world over the things of heaven. And also, I have discovered the meaning of your own practices and the doctrines you teach concerning the Tuhhuhl Nuhmehn, and I do see that your beliefs center upon attaining to a higher sphere than do the beliefs of my people. For, my people do all that they do for their own comfort and convenience. Conversely, you do all that you do for the comfort and convenience of all people at once. And I see that this is a greater good, for, what better thing can a man do than to work for the salvation of all living? How foolish is a doctrine that centers one’s thoughts on the accumulation of the things of the world?

36) Yea, all my life I have sought wisdom from the sages of my people. So great was my searching that my own people began even to call me a sage. Yet, my wisdom was just a repeating of the traditions of my people. You have taught me a great test of wisdom. From this time forth, I will submit all things to the confirmation of this Haymehnay of whom you teach.

37) For, I have sat with my ancestors and sought wisdom from them in this place you call the Way. And all the things they taught me were good in my sight. But, when I prayed that the truth of them be known unto me by the power of the Haymehnay, I found that certain of the things I had been taught were truths and still others were mere traditions . And how is a man to sort truth from tradition? It cannot be done by genius.

38) For a man does not have all the information needed to make a qualified decision. Wherefore, because our ancestors have the weight of generations behind them, we accept their beliefs as truth. But still, because a thing has the weight of generations in practice, this cannot signify that the thing is true. For, I know of nations whose practices are most abominable. Yet, their ways have been practiced by them for many generations.

39) I thank you, Nemenhah. For, you have taught me patiently, and I have learned from you a great and marvelous truth. I have learned that there is a way to ascertain the rightness of a thing, and that is to submit one’s own will to the greater universal good.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Adding this writeup of the "Angel and the flaming sword" analysis to the Resources section of the essay:

"The Foolish Fable of an “Angel with a Flaming Sword”
David M. Price--2022
https://hemlockknots.com/wp-content/upl ... -Price.pdf

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:55 am I've made this point before, but people are quite careless in condemning two of the great patriarchs of the House of Israel on this issue.
According to our Old Testament, but according to the Brass Plates Abraham and Jacob were not polygamists.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

JLHPROF wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:21 pm No polygamist was ever condemned for polygamy alone. Nor did God ever identify polygamy itself as adultery in scripture.
The Lord, in his own words, singles out the practice as abominable. Are you trying to put a spin on the word abominable by claiming it doesn't mean condemnation?

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:10 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 29th, 2023, 11:55 am I've made this point before, but people are quite careless in condemning two of the great patriarchs of the House of Israel on this issue.
According to our Old Testament, but according to the Brass Plates Abraham and Jacob were not polygamists.
That's a stretch.
Although the brass plates also hint at the Brother of Jared being possibly a polygamist. And maybe even Lehi.
You know, as long as we're stretching.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by JLHPROF »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:15 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:21 pm No polygamist was ever condemned for polygamy alone. Nor did God ever identify polygamy itself as adultery in scripture.
The Lord, in his own words, singles out the practice as abominable. Are you trying to put a spin on the word abominable by claiming it doesn't mean condemnation?
No, I'm saying the actions they did in Jacob 2 were specifically compared to those of David and Solomon. We know why their polygamy was condemned.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

JLHPROF wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:17 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:15 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 29th, 2023, 12:21 pm No polygamist was ever condemned for polygamy alone. Nor did God ever identify polygamy itself as adultery in scripture.
The Lord, in his own words, singles out the practice as abominable. Are you trying to put a spin on the word abominable by claiming it doesn't mean condemnation?
No, I'm saying the actions they did in Jacob 2 were specifically compared to those of David and Solomon. We know why their polygamy was condemned.
I understand what you are saying, but do you see how the Lord didn't differentiate between different forms of polygamy, he categorically condemned them all. Are we to believe that he misspoke by calling out the practice? He purposefully did not say they simply did it wrong, but he said it was "their having" them that was the problem. If the Lord told Jacob to go to the temple and receives his words, I'm sure that includes the ability to repeat them word for word.

Also, one of BY's wives does seem to be a captured war or trade victim, the native American wife that he kept locked up in the Beehive House who spoke no English. What the hell would they have in common? And when you command other men to turn over their wives to you, that is another form of capturing them. 14 of his wives were simultaneously married to their husbands when BY married them. Some continued having sex with their husbands as well.

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Shawn Henry »

If the Nephites were trying to justify themselves by citing their forefathers, why wouldn't they use the most respected of their forefathers as the example? Of course, they would have if given the option. Their Brass Plates simply did not allow them to cite Abraham and Jacob, which is a far more correct version of the Old Testament than what we have.

Did Abraham sacrifice his firstborn only son or did he offer up his second born son?

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Luke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:35 pm Also, one of BY's wives does seem to be a captured war or trade victim,
Which God condoned:

Deuteronomy 21
10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Martin Luther commenting on this:

“Here you see how the Law permitted soldiers not only to have several wives but even, where love demanded, a Gentile woman captured in war. For when he describes them as soldiers not newly married, it is plain that almost all the husbands who fought in the war were married no less than one year, and that these married soldiers were also allowed to take a Gentile woman to wife. What is more, if she proved unsatisfactory, it was lawful to dismiss her; but she was free to marry another man, and she could not be sold or made a prostitute. For it is a violation of civil uprightness to sell or prostitute one who has been humiliated.” (Luther’s Works 9:210)

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Luke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Another Luther gem:

“I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the Word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.” (Martin Luther, Letter to Chancellor Gregory Bruck, 13 January 1524, De Wette II, 459, pg. 329-330)

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:31 pm Another Luther gem:

“I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the Word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.” (Martin Luther, Letter to Chancellor Gregory Bruck, 13 January 1524, De Wette II, 459, pg. 329-330)
He was also wrong...

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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke... justifying abominations through citing scripture is exactly what Jacob was warning us of.

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Luke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:46 pm
Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:31 pm Another Luther gem:

“I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the Word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.” (Martin Luther, Letter to Chancellor Gregory Bruck, 13 January 1524, De Wette II, 459, pg. 329-330)
He was also wrong...
No… he wasn’t…

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Luke
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:47 pm Luke... justifying abominations through citing scripture is exactly what Jacob was warning us of.
Says the one citing Scripture as the basis of your argument. Such ridiculous logic.

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Sarah
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Sarah »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:31 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 30th, 2023, 1:35 pm Also, one of BY's wives does seem to be a captured war or trade victim,
Which God condoned:

Deuteronomy 21
10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Martin Luther commenting on this:

“Here you see how the Law permitted soldiers not only to have several wives but even, where love demanded, a Gentile woman captured in war. For when he describes them as soldiers not newly married, it is plain that almost all the husbands who fought in the war were married no less than one year, and that these married soldiers were also allowed to take a Gentile woman to wife. What is more, if she proved unsatisfactory, it was lawful to dismiss her; but she was free to marry another man, and she could not be sold or made a prostitute. For it is a violation of civil uprightness to sell or prostitute one who has been humiliated.” (Luther’s Works 9:210)
The higher law is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be captured and forced into a sexual relationship you didn't agree with? This law allows a man to marry a captive, but if he had a conscience, he wouldn't force this woman to remain against her will, or deny her food in her poor condition in exchange for sex or marriage. So reading the law, it allows something in the name of justice, but it also allows mercy if the Israelite chose to extend it. That was their test with the laws they had, as there were provisions for mercy mixed in. I think living the higher law is more ideal and definitely more charitable.

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Niemand
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Niemand »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:31 pm Another Luther gem:

“I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the Word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.” (Martin Luther, Letter to Chancellor Gregory Bruck, 13 January 1524, De Wette II, 459, pg. 329-330)
Luther never fails to surprise. A complex man.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamy = Adultery

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:58 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:47 pm Luke... justifying abominations through citing scripture is exactly what Jacob was warning us of.
Says the one citing Scripture as the basis of your argument. Such ridiculous logic.
Haha, ok.

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