LDS leaders: Councils, councils, councils; Revelation doesn't come through one; it's scattered amongst the council

[Alexander]

What is this all about? A new trend like "good global citizens" and "Covenant Path™"?



"Effectively using councils in a stake, ward, presidency, class or family where everyone feels comfortable sharing ideas, being open to new ideas and listening to each other can help invite revelation.
“There is revelation scattered among us, isn’t there?” President Johnson said."
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ith-226831

"Elder Andersen reminded those in the discussion that the work of the Church is spiritual work. It can only be done in the Lord's way. Leaders must believe in Him.
“Have confidence that you can be part of the solutions to your little branch or your ward no matter what the calling is,” he said. “Revelation is scattered among us and I know that the Lord answers our prayers.”
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ncil-59877

“Revelation is scattered among the various members of a council,” Elder Bednar explained.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ils-220099

"Whether a Church executive council, a ward council or a family council, it is “a revelatory experience” where “revelation is scattered among the various members.”"
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ers-233387

[tribrac]

Yep something is scattered.

[Baurak Ale]

Well, technically revelation is scattered among good global citizens on the covenant path. Very different, you see. /sarc

[Alexander]

Well, technically revelation is scattered among good global citizens on the covenant path. Very different, you see. /sarc

I see you’ve done some ponderizing as well!

[Luke]

What a weird thing to say

[Subcomandante]

They do not want a top-down approach like what many here have accused the leadership of doing. This is more horizontal.

[Gadianton Slayer]

They do not want a top-down approach like what many here have accused the leadership of doing. This is more horizontal.

Councils are meaningless when they teach that we must obey a man; that when he speaks, he speaks for the Lord. That they can never lead us astray.

No, councils are simply their way of letting people feel that they have a choice.

[JK4Woods]

The Bible is full of new different ways the Lord/Jehovah does things differently to get the attention of wayward errant faithful.

It demonstrates a multitude of different ways prophets and other faithful are called to obey/spread-the-word/repent, etc.

In other words, there is no certain singular way for revelation to come to individual, or Prophets, or military leaders or whoever.

Once again control of the process/narrative is being exhibited by HQ, as they tighten their grip, amid rising panic of losing members who are wakening up...

They (HQ) seem to forget, that revelation can be received by anyone... even a fourteen year old non-member...

[HVDC]

Sounds kinda Marxist to me.

Councils = Committees

The stronger guides the weaker into making the "correct" choice.

Yup, Communism.

Sir H

[alurker]

Sounds kinda Marxist to me.

Councils = Committees

The stronger guides the weaker into making the "correct" choice.

Yup, Communism.

Sir H

Well the Russian word for Council is Soviet.

The United Soviet Socialist Republic = United Council Socialist Republic

[Subcomandante]

The Russian word for Counselor is Sovyetnik

[Sirocco]

Sounds kinda Marxist to me.

Councils = Committees

The stronger guides the weaker into making the "correct" choice.

Yup, Communism.

Sir H

Well the Russian word for Council is Soviet.

The United Soviet Socialist Republic = United Council Socialist Republic

It's the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics since it was made up of a lot of different countries.
The USSR still existed when Russia left it (though not for too long)

[Juliet]

If we can receive revelation by lesser councils, then why are we not allowed to live that revelation. Why won't the church allow Bishops to sign religious exemption forms for vaxxines?

[crabman]

Well, technically revelation is scattered among good global citizens on the covenant path. Very different, you see. /sarc

I see you’ve done some ponderizing as well!

ponderizing™

There, fixed it for you

[Gazelem]

Anyone ever sat on a council or committee? Not a fun experience by any means. Not really revelatory either. Just a bunch of people that want to one up the other.

[Subcomandante]

Anyone ever sat on a council or committee? Not a fun experience by any means. Not really revelatory either. Just a bunch of people that want to one up the other.

I have. Both on harmonious ones and dysfunctional ones.

[OPMissionary]

Anyone ever sat on a council or committee? Not a fun experience by any means. Not really revelatory either. Just a bunch of people that want to one up the other.

[Serragon]

I think the principle of counsel is important. When someone is given a stewardship, it is important to always get their thoughts and find out how the Lord is directing them. Much insight can be gained, and I believe it is true that revelation can be found in each of those who have a stewardship.

But I think this works much better at an individual level. like in a ministering interview, or a personal priesthood interview. Or the RS and EQ presidents meeting together. I have found that ward council is mostly a waste of time simply because there are too many people at the table and most of the discussion doesn't involve them directly, and because instead of revelation you get people counseling based upon their personal biases and desires.

It is concerning to me though that we seem to be indicating that it is through a council that we find the mind and will of the Lord. This is the method currently adopted by the Q15 and it appears to be leading us away from the tree of life and towards the spacious building.

In my opinion, small councils are a great place to exchange thoughts and to organize work. Larger councils are a waste of time. And the idea that the mind and will of the Lord can be found in these councils is an imitation of worldly ideas and is generally not true.

[Robin Hood]

When the early Christian church started to lose it's authority and revelation began to dry up, it adopted councils instead.
And we all know how that ended.

[Serragon]

When the early Christian church started to lose it's authority and revelation began to dry up, it adopted councils instead.
And we all know how ended.

This is definitely the fallback position when actual revelation ceases. It provides safety and cover for those tasked with receiving said revelation.

[HVDC]

I think the principle of counsel is important. When someone is given a stewardship, it is important to always get their thoughts and find out how the Lord is directing them. Much insight can be gained, and I believe it is true that revelation can be found in each of those who have a stewardship.

But I think this works much better at an individual level. like in a ministering interview, or a personal priesthood interview. Or the RS and EQ presidents meeting together. I have found that ward council is mostly a waste of time simply because there are too many people at the table and most of the discussion doesn't involve them directly, and because instead of revelation you get people counseling based upon their personal biases and desires.

It is concerning to me though that we seem to be indicating that it is through a council that we find the mind and will of the Lord. This is the method currently adopted by the Q15 and it appears to be leading us away from the tree of life and towards the spacious building.

In my opinion, small councils are a great place to exchange thoughts and to organize work. Larger councils are a waste of time. And the idea that the mind and will of the Lord can be found in these councils is an imitation of worldly ideas and is generally not true.

I got invited to Ward Council once.

They never made that mistake again.

I noticed that the dominating Ward Sister controlled the meeting.

When she decided that the Ward no longer support a certain Sister because she didn't think it was worth the Relief Societies time, I think my face gave me away...

The Priesthood deferred to every point she made.

She and Sister H didn't get along well.

Sister H knows her Scriptures and the Church Handbook and doesn't mind pointing out error.

Thank Covid for keeping us away from that bunch.

For the record, I actually liked the open discussion format that we were doing in Priesthood.

Felt like I was actually part of things.

Sir H

[Sarah]

Heber J. Grant shared a vision he had while riding in through the Utah desert:
Heber J. Grant 1856-1945

There are two spirits striving with us always, one telling us to continue our labor for good, and one telling us that with the faults and failings of our nature we are unworthy. I can truthfully say that from October, 1882, until February, 1883, that spirit followed me day and night telling me that I was unworthy to be an Apostle of the Church, and that I ought to resign. When I would testify of my knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Redeemer of mankind, it seemed as though a voice would say to me: “You lie! You lie! You have never seen Him.”

While on the Navajo Indian reservation with Brigham Young, Jr., and a number of others, six or eight, on horseback, and several others in “white tops”—riding along with Lot Smith at the rear of that procession, suddenly the road veered to the left almost straight, but there was a well beaten path leading ahead. I said: “Stop, Lot, stop. Where does this trail lead? There are plenty of foot marks and plenty of horses’ hoof marks here.” He said, “It leads to an immense gulley just a short distance ahead, that it is impossible to cross with a wagon. We have made a regular ‘Muleshoe’ of miles here to get on the other side of the gulley.”

I had visited the day before the spot where a Navajo Indian had asked George A. Smith, Jr., to let him look at his pistol. George A. handed it to him, and the Navajo shot him.

I said, “Lot, is there any danger from Indians?”

“None at all.”

“I want to be all alone. Go ahead and follow the crowd.” I first asked him if I allowed the animal I was riding to walk if I would reach the road on the other side of the gulley before the horsemen and the wagons, and he said, “Yes.”

As I was riding along to meet them on the other side I seemed to see, and I seemed to hear, what to me is one of the most real things in all my life, I seemed to see a Council in Heaven. I seemed to hear the words that were spoken. I listened to the discussion with a great deal of interest. The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles had not been able to agree on two men to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. There had been a vacancy of one for two years, and a vacancy of two for one year, and the Conference had adjourned without the vacancies being filled. In this Council the Savior was present, my father was there, and the Prophet Joseph Smith was there. They discussed the question that a mistake had been made in not filling those two vacancies and that in all probability it would be another six months before the Quorum would be completed, and they discussed as to whom they wanted to occupy those positions, and decided that the way to remedy the mistake that had been made in not filling these vacancies was to send a revelation. It was given to me that I had done nothing to entitle me to that exalted position, except that I had lived a clean, sweet life. It was given to me that because of my father having practically sacrificed his life in what was known as the great Reformation, so to speak, of the people in early days, having been practically a martyr, that the Prophet Joseph and my father desired me to have that position, and it was because of their faithful labors that I was called, and not because of anything I had done of myself or any great thing that I had accomplished. It was also given to me that that was all these men, the Prophet and my father, could do for me; from that day it depended upon me and upon me alone as to whether I made a success of my life or a failure. . . .

It was given to me, as I say, that it now depended upon me. No man could have been more unhappy than I was from October 1882, until February, 1883, but from that day I have never been bothered, night or day, with the idea that I was not worthy to stand as an Apostle, and I have not been worried since the last words uttered by Joseph F. Smith to me: “The Lord bless you, my boy, the Lord bless you; you have got a great responsibility. Always remember this is the Lord’s work and not man’s. The Lord is greater than any man. He knows whom He wants to lead His Church, and never makes any mistake. The Lord bless you.”

I have been happy during the twenty years that it has fallen my lot to stand at the head of this Church. I have felt the inspiration of the Living God directing me in my labors. From the day that I chose a comparative stranger to be one of the Apostles, instead of my lifelong and dearest living friend, I have known as I know that I live, that I am entitled to the light and the inspiration and the guidance of God in directing his work here upon this earth; and I know, as I know that I live, that it is God’s work, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, the Redeemer of the world, and that he came to this earth with a divine mission to die upon the cross as the Redeemer of mankind, atoning for the sins of the world. (Conference Report, April 1941, pp. 4-6. See also: Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, p.195-196)

[Sarah]

I don't understand how people can praise the US structure of government with it's branches and balance of power (with attending inefficiencies) and wish for a more authoritative government in the church or family. When you have a balance of power you need to have patience because it takes longer to counsel together in a council. That's why China can get a lot done quickly, because Xi doesn't have to consult anyone. He just decides himself.

[Rubicon]

When the early Christian church started to lose it's authority and revelation began to dry up, it adopted councils instead.
And we all know how that ended.

These two statements by B. H. Roberts hit home to me. We like to think that the Primitive Church struggled with things that are not an issue for us, but his wisdom applies to us as well.
---
"Many Christians insist that the age of miracles stopped after the fourth or fifth century. Others insist that miracles have remained, but the miracles they describe after the fourth and fifth centuries pale in comparison to those described in the Primitive Church (e.g., sacred relics, pilgrimage sites, downplayed miracles, increasingly naturalistic explanations, etc.)." New Witnesses for God 1:99-101

[paraphrase for brevity]: Insistence on the discontinuance of revelation comes from the realization that revelation is and has been absent. This explains the rise of explanations such as “these things are no longer needed,” or “these extraordinary things were needed as Christianity started, but are not needed now that it is well-established." New Witnesses for God 1:136-137.
---
I find that the way many in the Church, and lately, the Brethren talk about miracles seems a lot like these things that Elder Roberts pointed out. That is, while paying lip service to modern-day miracles, their manner and approach is a lot like those after the passing of the apostles in the Primitive Church. As has been pointed out, this "revelation by council" thing is one of those things. Or, with the ministering of angels, statements like "we are the angels, and when God answers prayers, He usually does it through people."

I sustain Russell M. Nelson as holding the keys, but there has been a big shift over the last several decades with corporate business focuses, councils and committees, etc. The way he explains revelation seems more "whatever thoughts I am thinking are revelation." Luckily, those of us who have ongoing, personal experience with revelation and the ministering of angels have nothing to fear, even as the Gentile Church declines.