Elder Holland misapprehends Jeremiah; wrests isolated verse, and ignores the words of the Lord

[Alexander]

I’m reminded of the priests of King Noah saying, “the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”

Mosiah 12
20 And it came to pass that one of them said unto him: What meaneth the words which are written, and which have been taught by our fathers, saying:
21 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings; that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good; that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth;
22 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion;
23 Break forth into joy; sing together ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem;


“All is well in Zion!”

[LDS Watchman]

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

“But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself” (Doctrine and Covenants 105:1–5).

D&C 84

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.



The New Covenant was established.... and subsequently not followed by the early saints, and thus the Lord placed all of the church under condemnation for it. We are still under this condemnation.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Thank you for admitting that Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters. Would you like to be more specific about what the Lord says will happen to them? Who are these prophets, pray tell?

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

If you have already admitted that these chapters of Jeremiah are indeed speaking of the last days, he is talking about the scattering going on now, because we are not literally gathering. The scattering is still here because of the wickedness and current failure of the Latter Day Saints (to whom Jeremiah is talking to). Call it apostasy, call it whatever you want. But I will call it what the Lord called in in 1832, which is what? Condemnation. What is condemnation? It is the inability to move forward or progress. We are in that state of stagnation right now and it will not be lifted until after the scourging happens (upon His house will it begin.)

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

[LDS Watchman]

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

They can't prove it. And neither can you. That's all I'm saying. Some people feel they see the fruits of these things happening and the scriptures say its possible. You don't see the fruits of these things happening, but the scriptures don't say it's impossible. I agree though, nobody REALLY knows anything so it doesn't do any good talking as if we know. But when the scriptures give examples of things like this happening, I never close the doors on the possibility.

At the end of the day no one can prove anything.

Unbelievers will claim that God is a figment of the imagination and his word nothing more than fairy tales. And that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the restoration a farse.

But if we accept that God is real and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then we can prove a great deal by measuring claims and ideas against these.

Let's look at the prophecies in Jeremiah for example. What did Joseph Smith say about the timing of their fulfillment?

He specifically said that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was being fulfilled in the 1830s and that the Lord had set his hand again to recover Israel and establish his everlasting covenant with them for the last time.

And what do the scriptures say about what happens to Israel after this begins? Do they say that Israel will once again reject the everlasting covenant, fall into complete apostasy, and be destroyed and scattered again among the heathens as they were anciently?

No, they sure don't.

I agree with your first two paragraphs, good point. We just see it differently man. I see us as those gentiles that a light broke forth amongst but then rejected that light (D&C 45:28-29). I see us as those gentiles that Christ warns would reject the fullness and not repent and the remnant of Jacob would trample under their feet(3Nephi 16:15). But I also see us as fulfilling both roles of Israel and gentiles in many old Testament prophecies including those in Isaiah and Jeremiah. See the way I interpret the scriptures 100% makes sense to me and fits the puzzle in my paradigm. I do leave room however in my paradigm for being wrong, and I think that is so important if we want God to continue to teach us. When I read what you post, it seems you leave little room for being wrong. I'm sorry if I'm wrong in saying that and you can correct me if I am. I believe God has revealed to me many of these things I currently believe. You feel the same for you. You think I'm a critic, I think you have your eyes closed. At the end of the day though, i cannot prove my interpretation to you using the scriptures any more than you can prove yours to me using them.

I get what you are saying. I and totally understand where you are coming from. I've been there. I use to believe as you do.

I know this sounds arrogant, but I believe that I can absolutely prove my claims using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why I keep pointing to them. Joseph Smith literally said that the Lord had already set his hand again the second time to gather Israel and had reestablished his covenant with them for the last time per Jeremiah 31:31-33 and other scriptures. We can also clearly see a connection to these 3 verses and the other scriptures in Jeremiah I quoted. They are talking about the same thing. And the scriptures simply don't speak of the Lord's people lapsing into complete apostasy and being destroyed and scattered again after this.

How do you explain that and make it fit with your beliefs?

[LDS Watchman]

I’m reminded of the priests of King Noah saying, “the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”

Mosiah 12
20 And it came to pass that one of them said unto him: What meaneth the words which are written, and which have been taught by our fathers, saying:
21 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings; that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good; that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth;
22 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion;
23 Break forth into joy; sing together ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem;


“All is well in Zion!”

Huh?

Where did the priest who asked Abinadi that question say "the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”?

He didn't say that.

Also, where's the modern Abinadi called by God to tell the brethren to repent?

And where does it say that the house of Israel would again become completely corrupted after the Lord set his hand again the second time to recover them?

[Alexander]

I’m reminded of the priests of King Noah saying, “the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”

Mosiah 12
20 And it came to pass that one of them said unto him: What meaneth the words which are written, and which have been taught by our fathers, saying:
21 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings; that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good; that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth;
22 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion;
23 Break forth into joy; sing together ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem;


“All is well in Zion!”

Huh?

Where did the priest who asked Abinadi that question say "the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”?

He didn't say that.

Also, where's the modern Abinadi called by God to tell the brethren to repent?

And where does it say that the house of Israel would again become completely corrupted after the Lord set his hand again the second time to recover them?

It's amazing what you can understand in the text when you read the whole chapter:

-Abiniadi is brought before King Noah by the high priests because they are angry (9)
-High priests tell Noah that Abinadi has been accusing them of iniquity and is prophesying of their scattering, removal, and destruction (9-12)
-High priests tell Noah they are undeserving of condemnation and judgment of God because they are sinless and guiltless (13-14)
-Their flattery continues, and they say they are strong and prosperous, and will not be conquered or come into bondage (15)
- The King and priests concoct a plan to question and bring up certain points that will cross Abinadi in his words and prove themselves right (17-18)
- One of them starts off by contorting the scriptures to prove Abinadi wrong. The implication is this: "The feet of those on the mountain --the priests and king-- are beautiful because they speak peace and good tidings, while Abinadi is stirring up trouble and publishing iniquity and coming desolation, because the Lord has established his watchmen lifting up their voice because they have Zion, and how could there be any judgement of God upon them?..." (20-24)

[LDS Watchman]

I’m reminded of the priests of King Noah saying, “the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”

Mosiah 12
20 And it came to pass that one of them said unto him: What meaneth the words which are written, and which have been taught by our fathers, saying:
21 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings; that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good; that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth;
22 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion;
23 Break forth into joy; sing together ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem;


“All is well in Zion!”

Huh?

Where did the priest who asked Abinadi that question say "the scriptures say our feet are beautiful upon the mountain, so we can’t be corrupt. You’re wrong Abinadi.”?

He didn't say that.

Also, where's the modern Abinadi called by God to tell the brethren to repent?

And where does it say that the house of Israel would again become completely corrupted after the Lord set his hand again the second time to recover them?

It's amazing what you can understand in the text when you read the whole chapter:

-Abiniadi is brought before King Noah by the high priests because they are angry (9)
-High priests tell Noah that Abinadi has been accusing them of iniquity and is prophesying of their scattering, removal, and destruction (9-12)
-High priests tell Noah they are undeserving of condemnation and judgment of God because they are sinless and guiltless (13-14)
-Their flattery continues, and they say they are strong and prosperous, and will not be conquered or come into bondage (15)
- The King and priests concoct a plan to question and bring up certain points that will cross Abinadi in his words and prove themselves right (17-18)
- One of them starts off by contorting the scriptures to prove Abinadi wrong. The implication is this: "The feet of those on the mountain --the priests and king-- are beautiful because they speak peace and good tidings, while Abinadi is stirring up trouble and publishing iniquity and coming desolation, because the Lord has established his watchmen lifting up their voice because they have Zion, and how could there be any judgement of God upon them?..." (20-24)

Yeah, I'm very familiar with that chapter, which is why I knew right away that the priest who asked Abinadi that question didn't say what you said he did. You can believe that he was implying that. And maybe he was. Or maybe he just wanted to know what Abinadi thought about that scripture. It doesn't really matter. But it's interesting that you would state what you believe is implied as a fact.

In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith was publishing peace, while William Law was stirring up trouble and publishing what he claimed was iniquity and coming desolation. Does this make Joseph Smith King Noah and William Law Abinadi?

And let's be clear you're not Abinadi and the brethren are not the priests of Noah. If they were, there would have been a modern day Abinadi, called and sent forth by God to warn the people to repent ages ago. Where's the modern Abinadi called by God to tell the brethren to repent?

And where does it say that the house of Israel would again become completely corrupted after the Lord set his hand again the second time to recover them?

[InfoWarrior82]

“But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself” (Doctrine and Covenants 105:1–5).

D&C 84

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.



The New Covenant was established.... and subsequently not followed by the early saints, and thus the Lord placed all of the church under condemnation for it. We are still under this condemnation.




Thank you for admitting that Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters. Would you like to be more specific about what the Lord says will happen to them? Who are these prophets, pray tell?






If you have already admitted that these chapters of Jeremiah are indeed speaking of the last days, he is talking about the scattering going on now, because we are not literally gathering. The scattering is still here because of the wickedness and current failure of the Latter Day Saints (to whom Jeremiah is talking to). Call it apostasy, call it whatever you want. But I will call it what the Lord called in in 1832, which is what? Condemnation. What is condemnation? It is the inability to move forward or progress. We are in that state of stagnation right now and it will not be lifted until after the scourging happens (upon His house will it begin.)

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

[LDS Watchman]

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

You're playing games by putting words in mouth. That's childish.

Where does it say in Jeremiah 5 and 6 that Jeremiah is "completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?" It doesn't say that anywhere and Joseph Smith clearly said that we are associated with the scriptures that come after the apostasy and scattering of the people described in those chapters.

Your extremist interpretation of the condemnation in D&C 84 is what's laughable. Joseph Smith never mentioned it and didn't even publish it for 3 years. Then he and the Lord repeatedly praised the Saints for their righteousness and for fulfilling the Lord's work in the last days. But yeah, somehow a few verses that no one ever talked about meant the church was evil and now all the condemnations of ancient Israel somehow apply to the restored church? Give me a break. This is ridiculous.

[Hosh]

They can't prove it. And neither can you. That's all I'm saying. Some people feel they see the fruits of these things happening and the scriptures say its possible. You don't see the fruits of these things happening, but the scriptures don't say it's impossible. I agree though, nobody REALLY knows anything so it doesn't do any good talking as if we know. But when the scriptures give examples of things like this happening, I never close the doors on the possibility.

At the end of the day no one can prove anything.

Unbelievers will claim that God is a figment of the imagination and his word nothing more than fairy tales. And that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the restoration a farse.

But if we accept that God is real and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then we can prove a great deal by measuring claims and ideas against these.

Let's look at the prophecies in Jeremiah for example. What did Joseph Smith say about the timing of their fulfillment?

He specifically said that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was being fulfilled in the 1830s and that the Lord had set his hand again to recover Israel and establish his everlasting covenant with them for the last time.

And what do the scriptures say about what happens to Israel after this begins? Do they say that Israel will once again reject the everlasting covenant, fall into complete apostasy, and be destroyed and scattered again among the heathens as they were anciently?

No, they sure don't.

I agree with your first two paragraphs, good point. We just see it differently man. I see us as those gentiles that a light broke forth amongst but then rejected that light (D&C 45:28-29). I see us as those gentiles that Christ warns would reject the fullness and not repent and the remnant of Jacob would trample under their feet(3Nephi 16:15). But I also see us as fulfilling both roles of Israel and gentiles in many old Testament prophecies including those in Isaiah and Jeremiah. See the way I interpret the scriptures 100% makes sense to me and fits the puzzle in my paradigm. I do leave room however in my paradigm for being wrong, and I think that is so important if we want God to continue to teach us. When I read what you post, it seems you leave little room for being wrong. I'm sorry if I'm wrong in saying that and you can correct me if I am. I believe God has revealed to me many of these things I currently believe. You feel the same for you. You think I'm a critic, I think you have your eyes closed. At the end of the day though, i cannot prove my interpretation to you using the scriptures any more than you can prove yours to me using them.

I get what you are saying. I and totally understand where you are coming from. I've been there. I use to believe as you do.

I know this sounds arrogant, but I believe that I can absolutely prove my claims using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why I keep pointing to them. Joseph Smith literally said that the Lord had already set his hand again the second time to gather Israel and had reestablished his covenant with them for the last time per Jeremiah 31:31-33 and other scriptures. We can also clearly see a connection to these 3 verses and the other scriptures in Jeremiah I quoted. They are talking about the same thing. And the scriptures simply don't speak of the Lord's people lapsing into complete apostasy and being destroyed and scattered again after this.

How do you explain that and make it fit with your beliefs?

Well agree to disagree. I've said the exact same arrogant sounding response to people before so I can't judge you. What you are not understanding is that what you are saying that is "so clear cut in the scriptures", is really just your own paradigm. It fits that puzzle in your Mind and so you think it should fit everyone elses. The problem is that others have a different paradigm, and your puzzle pieces do not fit their puzzle. You think you have been where I have been, but I don't believe you have, because the things you say against me and others are so far off from what I actually believe. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Now is it possible for me to be convinced I'm wrong? Yes. I always leave room for the possibility. But it won't be you doing the convincing because frankly, and no disrespect to you, but the way you speak and the content you post just does not resonate with me whatsoever. And you can say the same about me. And I'm okay with that.

[LDS Watchman]

At the end of the day no one can prove anything.

Unbelievers will claim that God is a figment of the imagination and his word nothing more than fairy tales. And that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the restoration a farse.

But if we accept that God is real and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then we can prove a great deal by measuring claims and ideas against these.

Let's look at the prophecies in Jeremiah for example. What did Joseph Smith say about the timing of their fulfillment?

He specifically said that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was being fulfilled in the 1830s and that the Lord had set his hand again to recover Israel and establish his everlasting covenant with them for the last time.

And what do the scriptures say about what happens to Israel after this begins? Do they say that Israel will once again reject the everlasting covenant, fall into complete apostasy, and be destroyed and scattered again among the heathens as they were anciently?

No, they sure don't.

I agree with your first two paragraphs, good point. We just see it differently man. I see us as those gentiles that a light broke forth amongst but then rejected that light (D&C 45:28-29). I see us as those gentiles that Christ warns would reject the fullness and not repent and the remnant of Jacob would trample under their feet(3Nephi 16:15). But I also see us as fulfilling both roles of Israel and gentiles in many old Testament prophecies including those in Isaiah and Jeremiah. See the way I interpret the scriptures 100% makes sense to me and fits the puzzle in my paradigm. I do leave room however in my paradigm for being wrong, and I think that is so important if we want God to continue to teach us. When I read what you post, it seems you leave little room for being wrong. I'm sorry if I'm wrong in saying that and you can correct me if I am. I believe God has revealed to me many of these things I currently believe. You feel the same for you. You think I'm a critic, I think you have your eyes closed. At the end of the day though, i cannot prove my interpretation to you using the scriptures any more than you can prove yours to me using them.

I get what you are saying. I and totally understand where you are coming from. I've been there. I use to believe as you do.

I know this sounds arrogant, but I believe that I can absolutely prove my claims using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why I keep pointing to them. Joseph Smith literally said that the Lord had already set his hand again the second time to gather Israel and had reestablished his covenant with them for the last time per Jeremiah 31:31-33 and other scriptures. We can also clearly see a connection to these 3 verses and the other scriptures in Jeremiah I quoted. They are talking about the same thing. And the scriptures simply don't speak of the Lord's people lapsing into complete apostasy and being destroyed and scattered again after this.

How do you explain that and make it fit with your beliefs?

Well agree to disagree. I've said the exact same arrogant sounding response to people before so I can't judge you. What you are not understanding is that what you are saying that is "so clear cut in the scriptures", is really just your own paradigm. It fits that puzzle in your Mind and so you think it should fit everyone elses. The problem is that others have a different paradigm, and your puzzle pieces do not fit their puzzle. You think you have been where I have been, but I don't believe you have, because the things you say against me and others are so far off from what I actually believe. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Now is it possible for me to be convinced I'm wrong? Yes. I always leave room for the possibility. But it won't be you doing the convincing because frankly, and no disrespect to you, but the way you speak and the content you post just does not resonate with me whatsoever. And you can say the same about me. And I'm okay with that.

Yeah, it looks like we won't be agreeing any time soon. I don't really know what you mean by the "way I speak and the content I post." I know I can be defensive in responding to repeated personal attacks and through things back in people's faces sometimes. Or I also challenge people's attacks against the church using scriptures and quotes by Joseph Smith. Do the scriptures and quotes I share not resonate with you at all?

Do you have an answer for what Joseph Smith said about the Lord having set his hand again the second time and that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was already being fulfilled in the 1830s? If it's just a matter of having a different paradigm, then how do you fit his statement (and many similar ones) into your paradigm? Do you just chalk it off to Joseph being wrong or do you have an explanation for it?

[SPIRIT]

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

yep, like I said - totally a waste of time.
It's because of members like him - that treat The Book of Mormon lightly,
why the church is still under condemnation -
and they misinterpret other scriptures ,
and get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures
when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31).

[LDS Watchman]

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

yep, like I said - totally a waste of time.
It's because of members like him - that treat The Book of Mormon lightly,
why the church is still under condemnation -
and they misinterpret other scriptures ,
and get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures
when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31).

Since you brought up taking the Book of Mormon lightly. What does Jacob 5 say about what happens after the servants are sent forth for the last time to labor in the vineyard (which the D&C says began in the 1830s)? Does it mention the house of Israel again becoming corrupted? Yes or no?

[Hosh]

I agree with your first two paragraphs, good point. We just see it differently man. I see us as those gentiles that a light broke forth amongst but then rejected that light (D&C 45:28-29). I see us as those gentiles that Christ warns would reject the fullness and not repent and the remnant of Jacob would trample under their feet(3Nephi 16:15). But I also see us as fulfilling both roles of Israel and gentiles in many old Testament prophecies including those in Isaiah and Jeremiah. See the way I interpret the scriptures 100% makes sense to me and fits the puzzle in my paradigm. I do leave room however in my paradigm for being wrong, and I think that is so important if we want God to continue to teach us. When I read what you post, it seems you leave little room for being wrong. I'm sorry if I'm wrong in saying that and you can correct me if I am. I believe God has revealed to me many of these things I currently believe. You feel the same for you. You think I'm a critic, I think you have your eyes closed. At the end of the day though, i cannot prove my interpretation to you using the scriptures any more than you can prove yours to me using them.

I get what you are saying. I and totally understand where you are coming from. I've been there. I use to believe as you do.

I know this sounds arrogant, but I believe that I can absolutely prove my claims using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why I keep pointing to them. Joseph Smith literally said that the Lord had already set his hand again the second time to gather Israel and had reestablished his covenant with them for the last time per Jeremiah 31:31-33 and other scriptures. We can also clearly see a connection to these 3 verses and the other scriptures in Jeremiah I quoted. They are talking about the same thing. And the scriptures simply don't speak of the Lord's people lapsing into complete apostasy and being destroyed and scattered again after this.

How do you explain that and make it fit with your beliefs?

Well agree to disagree. I've said the exact same arrogant sounding response to people before so I can't judge you. What you are not understanding is that what you are saying that is "so clear cut in the scriptures", is really just your own paradigm. It fits that puzzle in your Mind and so you think it should fit everyone elses. The problem is that others have a different paradigm, and your puzzle pieces do not fit their puzzle. You think you have been where I have been, but I don't believe you have, because the things you say against me and others are so far off from what I actually believe. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Now is it possible for me to be convinced I'm wrong? Yes. I always leave room for the possibility. But it won't be you doing the convincing because frankly, and no disrespect to you, but the way you speak and the content you post just does not resonate with me whatsoever. And you can say the same about me. And I'm okay with that.

Yeah, it looks like we won't be agreeing any time soon. I don't really know what you mean by the "way I speak and the content I post." I know I can be defensive in responding to repeated personal attacks and through things back in people's faces sometimes. Or I also challenge people's attacks against the church using scriptures and quotes by Joseph Smith. Do the scriptures and quotes I share not resonate with you at all?

Do you have an answer for what Joseph Smith said about the Lord having set his hand again the second time and that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was already being fulfilled in the 1830s? If it's just a matter of having a different paradigm, then how do you fit his statement (and many similar ones) into your paradigm? Do you just chalk it off to Joseph being wrong or do you have an explanation for it?

Joseph wasn't wrong, but I think you are forcing a timeline when it doesn't necessarily have to be that timeline. The problem with me writing out a long drawn out interpretation here is that others have already done so for you and you just say "no that doesn't make sense." To YOU it doesn't make sense. But to others it does. You don't hold a trump card for understanding the Lord's timeline of these events.

As far as your words not resonating with me, you just (to me) come off as arrogant and condescending. What sucks is that I'm not trying to disrespect you or attack you right now. You just asked me why your words don't resonate with me and I'm trying to be honest. You may be different in person if we were just having a conversation. But something in the way you write just doesn't come across as someone speaking truth and so for me it does not resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sure it's not your intention. I know I have many weaknesses especially when writing, so I know I probably come across that way to many people. You calling me out a couple weeks ago actually helped me to repent and try to change the way I talk on here. So I thank you for that. I just hope you can do the same when people call you out. Take care.

[LDS Watchman]

I get what you are saying. I and totally understand where you are coming from. I've been there. I use to believe as you do.

I know this sounds arrogant, but I believe that I can absolutely prove my claims using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why I keep pointing to them. Joseph Smith literally said that the Lord had already set his hand again the second time to gather Israel and had reestablished his covenant with them for the last time per Jeremiah 31:31-33 and other scriptures. We can also clearly see a connection to these 3 verses and the other scriptures in Jeremiah I quoted. They are talking about the same thing. And the scriptures simply don't speak of the Lord's people lapsing into complete apostasy and being destroyed and scattered again after this.

How do you explain that and make it fit with your beliefs?

Well agree to disagree. I've said the exact same arrogant sounding response to people before so I can't judge you. What you are not understanding is that what you are saying that is "so clear cut in the scriptures", is really just your own paradigm. It fits that puzzle in your Mind and so you think it should fit everyone elses. The problem is that others have a different paradigm, and your puzzle pieces do not fit their puzzle. You think you have been where I have been, but I don't believe you have, because the things you say against me and others are so far off from what I actually believe. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Now is it possible for me to be convinced I'm wrong? Yes. I always leave room for the possibility. But it won't be you doing the convincing because frankly, and no disrespect to you, but the way you speak and the content you post just does not resonate with me whatsoever. And you can say the same about me. And I'm okay with that.

Yeah, it looks like we won't be agreeing any time soon. I don't really know what you mean by the "way I speak and the content I post." I know I can be defensive in responding to repeated personal attacks and through things back in people's faces sometimes. Or I also challenge people's attacks against the church using scriptures and quotes by Joseph Smith. Do the scriptures and quotes I share not resonate with you at all?

Do you have an answer for what Joseph Smith said about the Lord having set his hand again the second time and that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was already being fulfilled in the 1830s? If it's just a matter of having a different paradigm, then how do you fit his statement (and many similar ones) into your paradigm? Do you just chalk it off to Joseph being wrong or do you have an explanation for it?

Joseph wasn't wrong, but I think you are forcing a timeline when it doesn't necessarily have to be that timeline. The problem with me writing out a long drawn out interpretation here is that others have already done so for you and you just say "no that doesn't make sense." To YOU it doesn't make sense. But to others it does. You don't hold a trump card for understanding the Lord's timeline of these events.

As far as your words not resonating with me, you just (to me) come off as arrogant and condescending. What sucks is that I'm not trying to disrespect you or attack you right now. You just asked me why your words don't resonate with me and I'm trying to be honest. You may be different in person if we were just having a conversation. But something in the way you write just doesn't come across as someone speaking truth and so for me it does not resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sure it's not your intention. I know I have many weaknesses especially when writing, so I know I probably come across that way to many people. You calling me out a couple weeks ago actually helped me to repent and try to change the way I talk on here. So I thank you for that. I just hope you can do the same when people call you out. Take care.

Not offended at all. I appreciate you being candid. And I also appreciate trying hard to change your ways. I will try to do the same.

So how does that quote by Joseph Smith fit into your timeline?

[EvanLM]

Bwahahahahah this is the funniest and most enlightening post I have read. I am so entertained by it. I also see that someone her has it kinda wrong. that would be the person who has been listening to our prophetses incorrect interpretation of scripture.

1. We are Gentiles. . . I am a Gentiles. . . we are NOT the House of Israel. . . we will NOT accomplish building Zion. . Our prophets will NOT accomplish building Zion. . . the church will apostatize. . .

2. The House of Israel is the American Indian(sons of Jacob) and the twelve tribes of Israel. . . we, the Gentiles, will help them build Zion if we are faithful. . . and do NOT apostatize. . .after we, Gentiles have gathered them. . . let me make a point of stupid: how can the House of Israel gather the House of Israel??? contradicts the BofM that says the GENTILES will gather the house of Israel. . . .the gathering that is mentioned in the scriptures has NOT happened yet. . . Moses gathering the children of Israel was a type. . .this gathering will be like that gathering. . .literal. . .we, the Gentiles including Elder Holland have NOT done that gathering yet. . . it is literal. . .like being delivered to USA in airplanes, etc. . .

3. the marvelous work and wonder told of in the scriptures is NOT the restoration of the priesthood. . .with the covenants. . .it is this gathering that is the marvelous work and wonder. . .somebody got it wrong and it hasn't happened yet. . .

4 last comment on apostasy. . .apostasy is when a person turns from Christ, not when he or she turns from a Prophet. . . The apostaste stops helping in the plan that Christ has already mandated. . .when a person tries to stop the plans of Christ . . like stops the restoring of his church. . .stops people from being baptized. . .or works to slow the plans of Christ for that time period or dispensation. . .usually, aspostasy is coupled by sin. . . its a sin to kill prophets and so that is apostasy since someone thinks they can stop the Lord or the progress of his plans or even the judgements that might come on someone.

Think about it. King Noah, in the BofM thought he could stop God's judgements if he killed Abinadi. . .Paul thought he could stop the growth of the church by killing the saints, etc. . . only when the Lord decides to remove his priesthood and covenant from this earth does he do it. . .and . . .the Lord can always send someone to the earth at the right time, a foreordained person, to turn it all around.

So, i guess a nonapostate in our day would still be following the plan of Christ for our day as predicted in the scriptures. That would not be a person who is spending their time living in sin. Read the words of Christ.

5. If you are faithful and do not apostatize, then you will be a part of helping the House of Israel to build Zion. . .you, a Gentile. . .will help . . . Holland, a gentile will. . .nevermind

may God have mercy. . .this church has jumped the track

[EvanLM]

afterthought: but many people on this forum have not jumped the track and have maintained Jesus' goal even in the face of these world pleasing wannabe COJCLDS leaders.

God bless

[Hosh]

Well agree to disagree. I've said the exact same arrogant sounding response to people before so I can't judge you. What you are not understanding is that what you are saying that is "so clear cut in the scriptures", is really just your own paradigm. It fits that puzzle in your Mind and so you think it should fit everyone elses. The problem is that others have a different paradigm, and your puzzle pieces do not fit their puzzle. You think you have been where I have been, but I don't believe you have, because the things you say against me and others are so far off from what I actually believe. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Now is it possible for me to be convinced I'm wrong? Yes. I always leave room for the possibility. But it won't be you doing the convincing because frankly, and no disrespect to you, but the way you speak and the content you post just does not resonate with me whatsoever. And you can say the same about me. And I'm okay with that.

Yeah, it looks like we won't be agreeing any time soon. I don't really know what you mean by the "way I speak and the content I post." I know I can be defensive in responding to repeated personal attacks and through things back in people's faces sometimes. Or I also challenge people's attacks against the church using scriptures and quotes by Joseph Smith. Do the scriptures and quotes I share not resonate with you at all?

Do you have an answer for what Joseph Smith said about the Lord having set his hand again the second time and that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was already being fulfilled in the 1830s? If it's just a matter of having a different paradigm, then how do you fit his statement (and many similar ones) into your paradigm? Do you just chalk it off to Joseph being wrong or do you have an explanation for it?

Joseph wasn't wrong, but I think you are forcing a timeline when it doesn't necessarily have to be that timeline. The problem with me writing out a long drawn out interpretation here is that others have already done so for you and you just say "no that doesn't make sense." To YOU it doesn't make sense. But to others it does. You don't hold a trump card for understanding the Lord's timeline of these events.

As far as your words not resonating with me, you just (to me) come off as arrogant and condescending. What sucks is that I'm not trying to disrespect you or attack you right now. You just asked me why your words don't resonate with me and I'm trying to be honest. You may be different in person if we were just having a conversation. But something in the way you write just doesn't come across as someone speaking truth and so for me it does not resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sure it's not your intention. I know I have many weaknesses especially when writing, so I know I probably come across that way to many people. You calling me out a couple weeks ago actually helped me to repent and try to change the way I talk on here. So I thank you for that. I just hope you can do the same when people call you out. Take care.

Not offended at all. I appreciate you being candid. And I also appreciate trying hard to change your ways. I will try to do the same.

So how does that quote by Joseph Smith fit into your timeline?

Can you post the quote by JS again so I have a reference? I'm with a crying baby right now and don't want to scroll through all the posts.

[LDS Watchman]

Yeah, it looks like we won't be agreeing any time soon. I don't really know what you mean by the "way I speak and the content I post." I know I can be defensive in responding to repeated personal attacks and through things back in people's faces sometimes. Or I also challenge people's attacks against the church using scriptures and quotes by Joseph Smith. Do the scriptures and quotes I share not resonate with you at all?

Do you have an answer for what Joseph Smith said about the Lord having set his hand again the second time and that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was already being fulfilled in the 1830s? If it's just a matter of having a different paradigm, then how do you fit his statement (and many similar ones) into your paradigm? Do you just chalk it off to Joseph being wrong or do you have an explanation for it?

Joseph wasn't wrong, but I think you are forcing a timeline when it doesn't necessarily have to be that timeline. The problem with me writing out a long drawn out interpretation here is that others have already done so for you and you just say "no that doesn't make sense." To YOU it doesn't make sense. But to others it does. You don't hold a trump card for understanding the Lord's timeline of these events.

As far as your words not resonating with me, you just (to me) come off as arrogant and condescending. What sucks is that I'm not trying to disrespect you or attack you right now. You just asked me why your words don't resonate with me and I'm trying to be honest. You may be different in person if we were just having a conversation. But something in the way you write just doesn't come across as someone speaking truth and so for me it does not resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sure it's not your intention. I know I have many weaknesses especially when writing, so I know I probably come across that way to many people. You calling me out a couple weeks ago actually helped me to repent and try to change the way I talk on here. So I thank you for that. I just hope you can do the same when people call you out. Take care.

Not offended at all. I appreciate you being candid. And I also appreciate trying hard to change your ways. I will try to do the same.

So how does that quote by Joseph Smith fit into your timeline?

Can you post the quote by JS again so I have a reference? I'm with a crying baby right now and don't want to scroll through all the posts.

No problem. Here you go:

"The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31: 31, 32 and 33."

[Gadianton Slayer]

3 Nephi 21 makes it pretty clear that the work of the Father doesn't commence until after a period of tribulation, and after the New Jerusalem has been built. So what do you consider the work of the Father to be? What does verse 28 mean to you? This hasn't happened yet and isn't currently occurring.

• "Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance."

[Gadianton Slayer]

deleted

[Hosh]

Joseph wasn't wrong, but I think you are forcing a timeline when it doesn't necessarily have to be that timeline. The problem with me writing out a long drawn out interpretation here is that others have already done so for you and you just say "no that doesn't make sense." To YOU it doesn't make sense. But to others it does. You don't hold a trump card for understanding the Lord's timeline of these events.

As far as your words not resonating with me, you just (to me) come off as arrogant and condescending. What sucks is that I'm not trying to disrespect you or attack you right now. You just asked me why your words don't resonate with me and I'm trying to be honest. You may be different in person if we were just having a conversation. But something in the way you write just doesn't come across as someone speaking truth and so for me it does not resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sure it's not your intention. I know I have many weaknesses especially when writing, so I know I probably come across that way to many people. You calling me out a couple weeks ago actually helped me to repent and try to change the way I talk on here. So I thank you for that. I just hope you can do the same when people call you out. Take care.

Not offended at all. I appreciate you being candid. And I also appreciate trying hard to change your ways. I will try to do the same.

So how does that quote by Joseph Smith fit into your timeline?

Can you post the quote by JS again so I have a reference? I'm with a crying baby right now and don't want to scroll through all the posts.

No problem. Here you go:

"The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31: 31, 32 and 33."

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

[LDS Watchman]

Not offended at all. I appreciate you being candid. And I also appreciate trying hard to change your ways. I will try to do the same.

So how does that quote by Joseph Smith fit into your timeline?

Can you post the quote by JS again so I have a reference? I'm with a crying baby right now and don't want to scroll through all the posts.

No problem. Here you go:

"The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31: 31, 32 and 33."

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

[LDS Watchman]

3 Nephi 21 makes it pretty clear that the work of the Father doesn't commence until after a period of tribulation, and after the New Jerusalem has been built. So what do you consider the work of the Father to be? What does verse 28 mean to you? This hasn't happened yet and isn't currently occurring.

• "Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance."

The work of the Father begins well before the "tribulation" you are referring to. It begins when the Book of Mormon comes forth and the Lord's one true church is restored for the last time, which happened in 1830.

7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
3 Nephi 21

The verses you are referring to is the completion of the work of the Father, which has been underway for almost 200 years. It's talking about the climax, which happens after the meeting in Adam-ondi-Ahman and the sealing of the 144K. The work currently underway is building up to that.

[Hosh]

Can you post the quote by JS again so I have a reference? I'm with a crying baby right now and don't want to scroll through all the posts.

No problem. Here you go:

"The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31: 31, 32 and 33."

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

[InfoWarrior82]

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

You're playing games by putting words in mouth. That's childish.

Where does it say in Jeremiah 5 and 6 that Jeremiah is "completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?" It doesn't say that anywhere and Joseph Smith clearly said that we are associated with the scriptures that come after the apostasy and scattering of the people described in those chapters.

Your extremist interpretation of the condemnation in D&C 84 is what's laughable. Joseph Smith never mentioned it and didn't even publish it for 3 years. Then he and the Lord repeatedly praised the Saints for their righteousness and for fulfilling the Lord's work in the last days. But yeah, somehow a few verses that no one ever talked about meant the church was evil and now all the condemnations of ancient Israel somehow apply to the restored church? Give me a break. This is ridiculous.

Elder Holland says that Chapters 5 and 6 of Jeremiah is speaking to today's Restored Church... Kinda in the original post and topic title of this thread, actually. Which is why I'm confused. I had thought that you admitted this fact and apparently I misunderstood. For that, I apologize.


Do you have references to J.S. saying these chapters are actually not relevant to the latter day House of Israel?


And lastly, your interpretation of D&C 84 was a slap on the hand for not building the temple. But --- we have lots of temples today, and even President Benson knew that this condemnation is still not lifted yet.