Elder Holland misapprehends Jeremiah; wrests isolated verse, and ignores the words of the Lord

[Gazelem]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

Our early church leaders new their scriptures. I think this has been true until fairly recently. I think there are very few today who are scripturists.

I think that is fair to say. Give or take a few exceptions, it’s been a gradual decline from the beginning. Joseph obviously knew the most of anyone. Hyrum’s son and Grandson were more knowledgeable than any modern leader of today. I cant say much about any more modern leaders to be honest. Monson just quoted poems every conference. Ezra Taft Benson might be the most knowledgeable leader in the last 30-40 years.

[Robin Hood]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

Our early church leaders new their scriptures. I think this has been true until fairly recently. I think there are very few today who are scripturists.

I think that is fair to say. Give or take a few exceptions, it’s been a gradual decline from the beginning. Joseph obviously knew the most of anyone. Hyrum’s son and Grandson were more knowledgeable than any modern leader of today. I cant say much about any more modern leaders to be honest. Monson just quoted poems every conference. Ezra Taft Benson might be the most knowledgeable leader in the last 30-40 years.

Neal Maxwell knew his scriptures.

[Gazelem]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

Our early church leaders new their scriptures. I think this has been true until fairly recently. I think there are very few today who are scripturists.

I think that is fair to say. Give or take a few exceptions, it’s been a gradual decline from the beginning. Joseph obviously knew the most of anyone. Hyrum’s son and Grandson were more knowledgeable than any modern leader of today. I cant say much about any more modern leaders to be honest. Monson just quoted poems every conference. Ezra Taft Benson might be the most knowledgeable leader in the last 30-40 years.

Neal Maxwell knew his scriptures.

He was unique in that regard to his peers for sure.

[LDS Watchman]

So you don't know what a diviner is then?

A false prophet. Easy.

Do you deny that Jeremiah and Isaiah also use the word "prophet" and "priest" when referring to the house of Israel (specifically Ephraim) in the last days?

Diviner: a person who practices divination : SOOTHSAYER

Words actually have meaning. That don't just mean whatever critics can twist them to mean so they can attack the church.

And this is what Jeremiah says about Ephraim in the last days:

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31

You're purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days. Why?

What these scriptures are laying out is what the Lord WANTED for Ephraim in the last days... but you purposefully leave out WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. They break the Everlasting Covenant and are chastened with a cursing. Out of this cursing, a remnant of the righteous among them is preserved and is called up to redeem Zion.

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

I'd even question some of that content btw.

Fair, But you got my point right? The meaning was right under his nose probably for most of his 95+ years of his life and he just found out. Even then in his conference talk he said he had to have the help of two Hebrew scholars. So he still didn’t break open his Bible dictionary.

What’s correct/not correct in the Bible dictionary definitely could be a topic of discussion for another day, but at least the meaning of Israel checks out.

You are being far more generous to Nelson than I probably would be. He's lived a long life and has lots of experience. Given what I feel about other unsettling events surrounding him, I wouldn't trust him to watch a gold fish.

[Alexander]

A false prophet. Easy.

Do you deny that Jeremiah and Isaiah also use the word "prophet" and "priest" when referring to the house of Israel (specifically Ephraim) in the last days?

Diviner: a person who practices divination : SOOTHSAYER

Words actually have meaning. That don't just mean whatever critics can twist them to mean so they can attack the church.

And this is what Jeremiah says about Ephraim in the last days:

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31

You're purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days. Why?

What these scriptures are laying out is what the Lord WANTED for Ephraim in the last days... but you purposefully leave out WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. They break the Everlasting Covenant and are chastened with a cursing. Out of this cursing, a remnant of the righteous among them is preserved and is called up to redeem Zion.

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

"Peace! There is no future scattering and desolation! No destruction or separation is coming upon Israel! No harm will come to us! We will never see sword or famine! Mighty Israel would never fall!"

[InfoWarrior82]

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

“But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself” (Doctrine and Covenants 105:1–5).

D&C 84

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.



The New Covenant was established.... and subsequently not followed by the early saints, and thus the Lord placed all of the church under condemnation for it. We are still under this condemnation.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Thank you for admitting that Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters. Would you like to be more specific about what the Lord says will happen to them? Who are these prophets, pray tell?

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

If you have already admitted that these chapters of Jeremiah are indeed speaking of the last days, he is talking about the scattering going on now, because we are not literally gathering. The scattering is still here because of the wickedness and current failure of the Latter Day Saints (to whom Jeremiah is talking to). Call it apostasy, call it whatever you want. But I will call it what the Lord called in in 1832, which is what? Condemnation. What is condemnation? It is the inability to move forward or progress. We are in that state of stagnation right now and it will not be lifted until after the scourging happens (upon His house will it begin.)

[Hosh]

Atticus is right, Jeremiah does talk about the LDS leadership, in chapter 23.



Hah, this one sounds like Infowarrior:

Wrong again Gadianton.

Let's take a closer look at those verses in Jeremiah 23.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

In order for these verses to fit our prophets, they would have to be setting up something similar to the evil practice of Baal worship with it's child sacrifice and ritual sex acts. People would also be bowing down to graven images of this false God and believing that the statue is an actual God with power. Nothing even remotely like this is going on.

Our prophets today would also be committing adultery and walking in lies and not turning anyone from his wicked ways. They would be telling people that they can be wicked and despise the commandments of God and there won't be any consequences. They would also be claiming false visions to back up these falsehoods. Nothing like this is going on. Our prophets teach repentance and warn against the consequences of sin constantly.

Critics of the brethren speak out of both sides of their mouths. They accuse the brethren of not being prophets because they don't go around prophesying, yet then then say that they are prophesying but are making up their prophecies. Critics can't have it both ways. And the brethren rarely prophecy, and when they do it's not anything that even remotely suggests that people can go on sinning and do whatever they want and nothing bad will happen to them. They also tell people to read and study God's words in the scriptures. Does Come Follow Me ring a bell to anyone?

The brethren also do not claim dreams or vision to try and prove that they are true prophets. Again the critics speak out of both sides of their mouths. They criticize the brethren for not sharing dreams and vision (like their favorite false prophet does), but then say that they are sharing false dreams and visions in order to try and make this scripture stick. The brethren also do not steal words from their neighbor. They quote past prophets both from the scriptures and other latter-day prophets past and present. If that's stealing words from their neighbor then you won't find a true prophet ever, because they pretty much all quoted past prophets or their contemporaries.

I see no issue with that.

I’m speaking from BY to the present, all of those things have been done.

What do I know, I’m just a “critic”.

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Atticus you can't say you know that these things have NOT been done any more than anyone here can say they know they HAVE been done. Is there scriptural precedent for it being a possibility? Yes. Is there scriptural precedent for it to not even be remotely possible? No. Does this mean it's a fact that the brethren have or are doing these things just because it has happened in the scriptures? No. But you can't say it impossible when the scriptures give clear examples of Prophets falling and doing awful things. Now you can say that the Spirit has told you so, but I guarantee there are many others here that can say the same thing on the contrary. You say you don't see people worshiping baal in the same manner that they were then anciently. Maybe you you are right that it's not in the exact manner, but an argument can be made that we are married to babylon and we as members and religious leaders worship MANY false gods even if it's unknowingly.

[LDS Watchman]

Wrong again Gadianton.

Let's take a closer look at those verses in Jeremiah 23.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

In order for these verses to fit our prophets, they would have to be setting up something similar to the evil practice of Baal worship with it's child sacrifice and ritual sex acts. People would also be bowing down to graven images of this false God and believing that the statue is an actual God with power. Nothing even remotely like this is going on.

Our prophets today would also be committing adultery and walking in lies and not turning anyone from his wicked ways. They would be telling people that they can be wicked and despise the commandments of God and there won't be any consequences. They would also be claiming false visions to back up these falsehoods. Nothing like this is going on. Our prophets teach repentance and warn against the consequences of sin constantly.

Critics of the brethren speak out of both sides of their mouths. They accuse the brethren of not being prophets because they don't go around prophesying, yet then then say that they are prophesying but are making up their prophecies. Critics can't have it both ways. And the brethren rarely prophecy, and when they do it's not anything that even remotely suggests that people can go on sinning and do whatever they want and nothing bad will happen to them. They also tell people to read and study God's words in the scriptures. Does Come Follow Me ring a bell to anyone?

The brethren also do not claim dreams or vision to try and prove that they are true prophets. Again the critics speak out of both sides of their mouths. They criticize the brethren for not sharing dreams and vision (like their favorite false prophet does), but then say that they are sharing false dreams and visions in order to try and make this scripture stick. The brethren also do not steal words from their neighbor. They quote past prophets both from the scriptures and other latter-day prophets past and present. If that's stealing words from their neighbor then you won't find a true prophet ever, because they pretty much all quoted past prophets or their contemporaries.

I see no issue with that.

I’m speaking from BY to the present, all of those things have been done.

What do I know, I’m just a “critic”.

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Atticus you can't say you know that these things have NOT been done any more than anyone here can say they know they HAVE been done. Is there scriptural precedent for it being a possibility? Yes. Is there scriptural precedent for it to not even be remotely possible? No. Does this mean it's a fact that the brethren have or are doing these things just because it has happened in the scriptures? No. But you can't say it impossible when the scriptures give clear examples of Prophets falling and doing awful things. Now you can say that the Spirit has told you so, but I guarantee there are many others here that can say the same thing on the contrary. You say you don't see people worshiping baal in the same manner that they were then anciently. Maybe you you are right that it's not in the exact manner, but an argument can be made that we are married to babylon and we as members and religious leaders worship MANY false gods even if it's unknowingly.

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

[LDS Watchman]

Diviner: a person who practices divination : SOOTHSAYER

Words actually have meaning. That don't just mean whatever critics can twist them to mean so they can attack the church.

And this is what Jeremiah says about Ephraim in the last days:

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31

You're purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days. Why?

What these scriptures are laying out is what the Lord WANTED for Ephraim in the last days... but you purposefully leave out WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. They break the Everlasting Covenant and are chastened with a cursing. Out of this cursing, a remnant of the righteous among them is preserved and is called up to redeem Zion.

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

"Peace! There is no future scattering and desolation! No destruction or separation is coming upon Israel! No harm will come to us! We will never see sword or famine! Mighty Israel would never fall!"

Where does it say in the scriptures that Israel would fail again once the Lord's servants were sent out proclaim the gospel and gather Israel for the last time?

It doesn't say this anywhere. Instead it says the opposite. It says Israel won't fail again.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

If you knew about everything the brethren were doing, the secret combinations wouldn’t be very secret now would they?

Doesn’t matter what I show you, it didn’t matter when we discussed scripture either; You will justify everything, like you justified the temple square mandates. Those men are your god, there’s nothing I can do or say that will change your opinion of them. So we’re just going to ride on and see how things play out, I feel that big changes are coming to the world very soon.

You’re familiar with this story, right? This is us, and I won’t continue trying to show you what I feel is right when we’re looking at the same exact image.




Best of luck to you kiddo.

[LDS Watchman]

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

“But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself” (Doctrine and Covenants 105:1–5).

D&C 84

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.



The New Covenant was established.... and subsequently not followed by the early saints, and thus the Lord placed all of the church under condemnation for it. We are still under this condemnation.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Thank you for admitting that Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters. Would you like to be more specific about what the Lord says will happen to them? Who are these prophets, pray tell?

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

If you have already admitted that these chapters of Jeremiah are indeed speaking of the last days, he is talking about the scattering going on now, because we are not literally gathering. The scattering is still here because of the wickedness and current failure of the Latter Day Saints (to whom Jeremiah is talking to). Call it apostasy, call it whatever you want. But I will call it what the Lord called in in 1832, which is what? Condemnation. What is condemnation? It is the inability to move forward or progress. We are in that state of stagnation right now and it will not be lifted until after the scourging happens (upon His house will it begin.)

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

[LDS Watchman]

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

If you knew about everything the brethren were doing, the secret combinations wouldn’t be very secret now would they?

Doesn’t matter what I show you, it didn’t matter when we discussed scripture either; You will justify everything, like you justified the temple square mandates. Those men are your god, there’s nothing I can do or say that will change your opinion of them. So we’re just going to ride on and see how things play out, I feel that big changes are coming to the world very soon.

You’re familiar with this story, right? This is us, and I won’t continue trying to show you what I feel is right when we’re looking at the same exact image.




Best of luck to you kiddo.

Bogus duck/rabbit analogy. We're not seeing the same thing at all.

Gadianton: The brethren are guilty of the most vile sins

Me: No they aren't. No evidence exists for this.

Gadianton: We can't see the evidence because it's secret.

Me: So you're admitting you don't really have any evidence to back up your accusations then?

[Gadianton Slayer]

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

If you knew about everything the brethren were doing, the secret combinations wouldn’t be very secret now would they?

Doesn’t matter what I show you, it didn’t matter when we discussed scripture either; You will justify everything, like you justified the temple square mandates. Those men are your god, there’s nothing I can do or say that will change your opinion of them. So we’re just going to ride on and see how things play out, I feel that big changes are coming to the world very soon.

You’re familiar with this story, right? This is us, and I won’t continue trying to show you what I feel is right when we’re looking at the same exact image.




Best of luck to you kiddo.

Bogus duck/rabbit analogy. We're not seeing the same thing at all.

Gadianton: The brethren are guilty of the most vile sins

Me: No they aren't. No evidence exists for this.

Gadianton: We can't see the evidence because it's secret.

Me: So you're admitting you don't really have any evidence to back up your accusations then?

You don’t understand it lol. Duck, rabbit.

[LDS Watchman]

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

If you knew about everything the brethren were doing, the secret combinations wouldn’t be very secret now would they?

Doesn’t matter what I show you, it didn’t matter when we discussed scripture either; You will justify everything, like you justified the temple square mandates. Those men are your god, there’s nothing I can do or say that will change your opinion of them. So we’re just going to ride on and see how things play out, I feel that big changes are coming to the world very soon.

You’re familiar with this story, right? This is us, and I won’t continue trying to show you what I feel is right when we’re looking at the same exact image.




Best of luck to you kiddo.

Bogus duck/rabbit analogy. We're not seeing the same thing at all.

Gadianton: The brethren are guilty of the most vile sins

Me: No they aren't. No evidence exists for this.

Gadianton: We can't see the evidence because it's secret.

Me: So you're admitting you don't really have any evidence to back up your accusations then?

You don’t understand it lol. Duck, rabbit.

It's either a duck or a rabbit it can't be both. One of us is right and the other wrong.

I can fully support my position from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith and you can't. I don't have to reject any scriptures or teaching of Joseph Smith, while you do. So that should give us a pretty good idea of who is right and who is wrong.

[Gadianton Slayer]

If you knew about everything the brethren were doing, the secret combinations wouldn’t be very secret now would they?

Doesn’t matter what I show you, it didn’t matter when we discussed scripture either; You will justify everything, like you justified the temple square mandates. Those men are your god, there’s nothing I can do or say that will change your opinion of them. So we’re just going to ride on and see how things play out, I feel that big changes are coming to the world very soon.

You’re familiar with this story, right? This is us, and I won’t continue trying to show you what I feel is right when we’re looking at the same exact image.




Best of luck to you kiddo.

Bogus duck/rabbit analogy. We're not seeing the same thing at all.

Gadianton: The brethren are guilty of the most vile sins

Me: No they aren't. No evidence exists for this.

Gadianton: We can't see the evidence because it's secret.

Me: So you're admitting you don't really have any evidence to back up your accusations then?

You don’t understand it lol. Duck, rabbit.

It's either a duck or a rabbit it can't be both. One of us is right and the other wrong.

I can fully support my position from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith and you can't. I don't have to reject any scriptures or teaching of Joseph Smith, while you do. So that should give us a pretty good idea of who is right and who is wrong.

[LDS Watchman]

Bogus duck/rabbit analogy. We're not seeing the same thing at all.

Gadianton: The brethren are guilty of the most vile sins

Me: No they aren't. No evidence exists for this.

Gadianton: We can't see the evidence because it's secret.

Me: So you're admitting you don't really have any evidence to back up your accusations then?

You don’t understand it lol. Duck, rabbit.

It's either a duck or a rabbit it can't be both. One of us is right and the other wrong.

I can fully support my position from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith and you can't. I don't have to reject any scriptures or teaching of Joseph Smith, while you do. So that should give us a pretty good idea of who is right and who is wrong.

Pointing out the obvious doesn’t mean I think I'm the smartest man alive.

[Gadianton Slayer]

You don’t understand it lol. Duck, rabbit.

It's either a duck or a rabbit it can't be both. One of us is right and the other wrong.

I can fully support my position from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith and you can't. I don't have to reject any scriptures or teaching of Joseph Smith, while you do. So that should give us a pretty good idea of who is right and who is wrong.

Pointing out the obvious doesn’t mean I think I'm the smartest man alive.

[JK4Woods]

All I know... something is rotten in Denmark...

[LDS Watchman]

It's either a duck or a rabbit it can't be both. One of us is right and the other wrong.

I can fully support my position from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith and you can't. I don't have to reject any scriptures or teaching of Joseph Smith, while you do. So that should give us a pretty good idea of who is right and who is wrong.

Pointing out the obvious doesn’t mean I think I'm the smartest man alive.

The fact that we've been down this road before doesn't change the fact that I'm simply pointing out the obvious. My perspective doesn't require rejecting or ignoring multiple scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith and yours does. If we use the scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith as a measuring stick for truth, then it's pretty obvious who is right and who is wrong.

[Hosh]

I see no issue with that.

I’m speaking from BY to the present, all of those things have been done.

What do I know, I’m just a “critic”.

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Atticus you can't say you know that these things have NOT been done any more than anyone here can say they know they HAVE been done. Is there scriptural precedent for it being a possibility? Yes. Is there scriptural precedent for it to not even be remotely possible? No. Does this mean it's a fact that the brethren have or are doing these things just because it has happened in the scriptures? No. But you can't say it impossible when the scriptures give clear examples of Prophets falling and doing awful things. Now you can say that the Spirit has told you so, but I guarantee there are many others here that can say the same thing on the contrary. You say you don't see people worshiping baal in the same manner that they were then anciently. Maybe you you are right that it's not in the exact manner, but an argument can be made that we are married to babylon and we as members and religious leaders worship MANY false gods even if it's unknowingly.

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

They can't prove it. And neither can you. That's all I'm saying. Some people feel they see the fruits of these things happening and the scriptures say its possible. You don't see the fruits of these things happening, but the scriptures don't say it's impossible. I agree though, nobody REALLY knows anything so it doesn't do any good talking as if we know. But when the scriptures give examples of things like this happening, I never close the doors on the possibility.

[Gadianton Slayer]

They can't prove it.

Cost-benefit analysis It’s like I told him, we’d look at the exact same thing and have completely different ideas. Not worth my time.

[LDS Watchman]

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Atticus you can't say you know that these things have NOT been done any more than anyone here can say they know they HAVE been done. Is there scriptural precedent for it being a possibility? Yes. Is there scriptural precedent for it to not even be remotely possible? No. Does this mean it's a fact that the brethren have or are doing these things just because it has happened in the scriptures? No. But you can't say it impossible when the scriptures give clear examples of Prophets falling and doing awful things. Now you can say that the Spirit has told you so, but I guarantee there are many others here that can say the same thing on the contrary. You say you don't see people worshiping baal in the same manner that they were then anciently. Maybe you you are right that it's not in the exact manner, but an argument can be made that we are married to babylon and we as members and religious leaders worship MANY false gods even if it's unknowingly.

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

They can't prove it. And neither can you. That's all I'm saying. Some people feel they see the fruits of these things happening and the scriptures say its possible. You don't see the fruits of these things happening, but the scriptures don't say it's impossible. I agree though, nobody REALLY knows anything so it doesn't do any good talking as if we know. But when the scriptures give examples of things like this happening, I never close the doors on the possibility.

At the end of the day no one can prove anything.

Unbelievers will claim that God is a figment of the imagination and his word nothing more than fairy tales. And that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the restoration a farse.

But if we accept that God is real and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then we can prove a great deal by measuring claims and ideas against these.

Let's look at the prophecies in Jeremiah for example. What did Joseph Smith say about the timing of their fulfillment?

He specifically said that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was being fulfilled in the 1830s and that the Lord had set his hand again to recover Israel and establish his everlasting covenant with them for the last time.

And what do the scriptures say about what happens to Israel after this begins? Do they say that Israel will once again reject the everlasting covenant, fall into complete apostasy, and be destroyed and scattered again among the heathens as they were anciently?

No, they sure don't.

[Hosh]

Atticus you can't say you know that these things have NOT been done any more than anyone here can say they know they HAVE been done. Is there scriptural precedent for it being a possibility? Yes. Is there scriptural precedent for it to not even be remotely possible? No. Does this mean it's a fact that the brethren have or are doing these things just because it has happened in the scriptures? No. But you can't say it impossible when the scriptures give clear examples of Prophets falling and doing awful things. Now you can say that the Spirit has told you so, but I guarantee there are many others here that can say the same thing on the contrary. You say you don't see people worshiping baal in the same manner that they were then anciently. Maybe you you are right that it's not in the exact manner, but an argument can be made that we are married to babylon and we as members and religious leaders worship MANY false gods even if it's unknowingly.

Here's the thing Hosh, Gadianton and the rest of the critics love to make these outlandish accusations against the church, which you admitted they can't prove.

When have the brethren actually done any of these things Gadianton accuses them of in Jeremiah 23? If Jeremiah 23 is talking about the brethren then there should be obvious examples to verify this. But such examples simply do not exist.

They can't prove it. And neither can you. That's all I'm saying. Some people feel they see the fruits of these things happening and the scriptures say its possible. You don't see the fruits of these things happening, but the scriptures don't say it's impossible. I agree though, nobody REALLY knows anything so it doesn't do any good talking as if we know. But when the scriptures give examples of things like this happening, I never close the doors on the possibility.

At the end of the day no one can prove anything.

Unbelievers will claim that God is a figment of the imagination and his word nothing more than fairy tales. And that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the restoration a farse.

But if we accept that God is real and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then we can prove a great deal by measuring claims and ideas against these.

Let's look at the prophecies in Jeremiah for example. What did Joseph Smith say about the timing of their fulfillment?

He specifically said that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was being fulfilled in the 1830s and that the Lord had set his hand again to recover Israel and establish his everlasting covenant with them for the last time.

And what do the scriptures say about what happens to Israel after this begins? Do they say that Israel will once again reject the everlasting covenant, fall into complete apostasy, and be destroyed and scattered again among the heathens as they were anciently?

No, they sure don't.

I agree with your first two paragraphs, good point. We just see it differently man. I see us as those gentiles that a light broke forth amongst but then rejected that light (D&C 45:28-29). I see us as those gentiles that Christ warns would reject the fullness and not repent and the remnant of Jacob would trample under their feet(3Nephi 16:15). But I also see us as fulfilling both roles of Israel and gentiles in many old Testament prophecies including those in Isaiah and Jeremiah. See the way I interpret the scriptures 100% makes sense to me and fits the puzzle in my paradigm. I do leave room however in my paradigm for being wrong, and I think that is so important if we want God to continue to teach us. When I read what you post, it seems you leave little room for being wrong. I'm sorry if I'm wrong in saying that and you can correct me if I am. I believe God has revealed to me many of these things I currently believe. You feel the same for you. You think I'm a critic, I think you have your eyes closed. At the end of the day though, i cannot prove my interpretation to you using the scriptures any more than you can prove yours to me using them.

[InfoWarrior82]

Where in the scriptures does it say that once the everlasting covenant is restored for the last time (which happened in the 1830s) that it is broken again? It doesn't say this anywhere.

“But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself” (Doctrine and Covenants 105:1–5).

D&C 84

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.



The New Covenant was established.... and subsequently not followed by the early saints, and thus the Lord placed all of the church under condemnation for it. We are still under this condemnation.

I'm not "purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days." I'm just not misinterpreting the scripture condemning apostate ancient Israel in order to attack the Lord's restored church in the last days.

Thank you for admitting that Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters. Would you like to be more specific about what the Lord says will happen to them? Who are these prophets, pray tell?

Look at all the scriptures condemning apostate Israel in Jeremiah and all the other prophetic books. What is the punishment for this apostasy? The punishment is being destroyed and scattered among the nations, which happened thousands of years ago. This isn't a future scattering. And in these prophetic books, the Lord promises to gather Israel and renew his everlasting covenant with them in the last days. This began in the 1830s. It's all over the D&C and statements by Joseph Smith. There is no mention in where in the scriptures of another great apostasy or mass scattering of Israel after the Lord restores his covenant and begins to gather Israel, which he has.

If you have already admitted that these chapters of Jeremiah are indeed speaking of the last days, he is talking about the scattering going on now, because we are not literally gathering. The scattering is still here because of the wickedness and current failure of the Latter Day Saints (to whom Jeremiah is talking to). Call it apostasy, call it whatever you want. But I will call it what the Lord called in in 1832, which is what? Condemnation. What is condemnation? It is the inability to move forward or progress. We are in that state of stagnation right now and it will not be lifted until after the scourging happens (upon His house will it begin.)

Not playing this game buddy. Don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't admit that "Jeremiah is criticizing Ephraim and its prophets in the last days in these chapters." I said the exact opposite.

What a joke.

I believe what Joseph Smith taught about who Jeremiah was referring to and apparently you don't. Too bad for you I guess.

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

Who is Jeremiah talking about in chapters 5 and 6? (This is what the O.P. is referring to). Elder Holland says he's talking about the LDS church.

And once again, not even responding to any other points I raised in my previous comment to you. What's the deal?