Elder Holland misapprehends Jeremiah; wrests isolated verse, and ignores the words of the Lord

[Robin Hood]

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

I'm convinced you just like to wind people up. There is literally no way anyone could have a functioning brain cell on active duty and could read the whole passage in context and say Elder Holland got it right. I don't think Elder Holland would even do that.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Atticus is right, Jeremiah does talk about the LDS leadership, in chapter 23.

in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Hah, this one sounds like Infowarrior:

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

[LDS Watchman]

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

I'm convinced you just like to wind people up. There is literally no way anyone could have a functioning brain cell on active duty and could read the whole passage in context and say Elder Holland got it right. I don't think Elder Holland would even do that.

Did you read any of my follow up comments?

Jesus Christ and His prophets have always taken little snippets here and there in the scriptures and applied them "out of context."

The scriptures are full of examples of this. Joseph Smith did it, too.

[LDS Watchman]

Oh faithless Israel; how high you are! Your diviners say you are innocent and undefiled, but look at your way in the valley and your doings in the mountains...

Do you know what a diviner is?

[Niemand]

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

I'm convinced you just like to wind people up. There is literally no way anyone could have a functioning brain cell on active duty and could read the whole passage in context and say Elder Holland got it right. I don't think Elder Holland would even do that.

Well, he's probably named after "To Kill a Mocking Bird". Either that or he really likes Greece.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Another catastrophically ironic thing that Elder Holland does is actually confirm that Jeremiah in this chapter was speaking to US in the last days. (I'm looking at YOU, Atticus.)

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

I'm convinced you just like to wind people up. There is literally no way anyone could have a functioning brain cell on active duty and could read the whole passage in context and say Elder Holland got it right. I don't think Elder Holland would even do that.

Well, he's probably named after "To Kill a Mocking Bird".

Atticus Aemilius. It’s not as apparent now that he has taken the picture off.

[Niemand]

Have I ever said that none of Jeremiah's words were speaking about us in the last days?

Of course there's an application for us. It's just not the one you think. It's the one Elder Holland pointed out.

I'm convinced you just like to wind people up. There is literally no way anyone could have a functioning brain cell on active duty and could read the whole passage in context and say Elder Holland got it right. I don't think Elder Holland would even do that.

Well, he's probably named after "To Kill a Mocking Bird".

Atticus Aemilius. It’s not as apparent now that he has taken the picture off.

Fair enough. It fits with the other classical names like Artaxerxes etc.

[LDS Watchman]

Atticus is right, Jeremiah does talk about the LDS leadership, in chapter 23.

in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Hah, this one sounds like Infowarrior:

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

Wrong again Gadianton.

Let's take a closer look at those verses in Jeremiah 23.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

In order for these verses to fit our prophets, they would have to be setting up something similar to the evil practice of Baal worship with it's child sacrifice and ritual sex acts. People would also be bowing down to graven images of this false God and believing that the statue is an actual God with power. Nothing even remotely like this is going on.

Our prophets today would also be committing adultery and walking in lies and not turning anyone from his wicked ways. They would be telling people that they can be wicked and despise the commandments of God and there won't be any consequences. They would also be claiming false visions to back up these falsehoods. Nothing like this is going on. Our prophets teach repentance and warn against the consequences of sin constantly.

Critics of the brethren speak out of both sides of their mouths. They accuse the brethren of not being prophets because they don't go around prophesying, yet then then say that they are prophesying but are making up their prophecies. Critics can't have it both ways. And the brethren rarely prophecy, and when they do it's not anything that even remotely suggests that people can go on sinning and do whatever they want and nothing bad will happen to them. They also tell people to read and study God's words in the scriptures. Does Come Follow Me ring a bell to anyone?

The brethren also do not claim dreams or vision to try and prove that they are true prophets. Again the critics speak out of both sides of their mouths. They criticize the brethren for not sharing dreams and vision (like their favorite false prophet does), but then say that they are sharing false dreams and visions in order to try and make this scripture stick. The brethren also do not steal words from their neighbor. They quote past prophets both from the scriptures and other latter-day prophets past and present. If that's stealing words from their neighbor then you won't find a true prophet ever, because they pretty much all quoted past prophets or their contemporaries.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Atticus is right, Jeremiah does talk about the LDS leadership, in chapter 23.

in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Hah, this one sounds like Infowarrior:

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

Wrong again Gadianton.

Let's take a closer look at those verses in Jeremiah 23.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

In order for these verses to fit our prophets, they would have to be setting up something similar to the evil practice of Baal worship with it's child sacrifice and ritual sex acts. People would also be bowing down to graven images of this false God and believing that the statue is an actual God with power. Nothing even remotely like this is going on.

Our prophets today would also be committing adultery and walking in lies and not turning anyone from his wicked ways. They would be telling people that they can be wicked and despise the commandments of God and there won't be any consequences. They would also be claiming false visions to back up these falsehoods. Nothing like this is going on. Our prophets teach repentance and warn against the consequences of sin constantly.

Critics of the brethren speak out of both sides of their mouths. They accuse the brethren of not being prophets because they don't go around prophesying, yet then then say that they are prophesying but are making up their prophecies. Critics can't have it both ways. And the brethren rarely prophecy, and when they do it's not anything that even remotely suggests that people can go on sinning and do whatever they want and nothing bad will happen to them. They also tell people to read and study God's words in the scriptures. Does Come Follow Me ring a bell to anyone?

The brethren also do not claim dreams or vision to try and prove that they are true prophets. Again the critics speak out of both sides of their mouths. They criticize the brethren for not sharing dreams and vision (like their favorite false prophet does), but then say that they are sharing false dreams and visions in order to try and make this scripture stick. The brethren also do not steal words from their neighbor. They quote past prophets both from the scriptures and other latter-day prophets past and present. If that's stealing words from their neighbor then you won't find a true prophet ever, because they pretty much all quoted past prophets or their contemporaries.

I see no issue with that.

I’m speaking from BY to the present, all of those things have been done.

What do I know, I’m just a “critic”.

[LDS Watchman]

Atticus is right, Jeremiah does talk about the LDS leadership, in chapter 23.

in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Hah, this one sounds like Infowarrior:

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

Wrong again Gadianton.

Let's take a closer look at those verses in Jeremiah 23.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

In order for these verses to fit our prophets, they would have to be setting up something similar to the evil practice of Baal worship with it's child sacrifice and ritual sex acts. People would also be bowing down to graven images of this false God and believing that the statue is an actual God with power. Nothing even remotely like this is going on.

Our prophets today would also be committing adultery and walking in lies and not turning anyone from his wicked ways. They would be telling people that they can be wicked and despise the commandments of God and there won't be any consequences. They would also be claiming false visions to back up these falsehoods. Nothing like this is going on. Our prophets teach repentance and warn against the consequences of sin constantly.

Critics of the brethren speak out of both sides of their mouths. They accuse the brethren of not being prophets because they don't go around prophesying, yet then then say that they are prophesying but are making up their prophecies. Critics can't have it both ways. And the brethren rarely prophecy, and when they do it's not anything that even remotely suggests that people can go on sinning and do whatever they want and nothing bad will happen to them. They also tell people to read and study God's words in the scriptures. Does Come Follow Me ring a bell to anyone?

The brethren also do not claim dreams or vision to try and prove that they are true prophets. Again the critics speak out of both sides of their mouths. They criticize the brethren for not sharing dreams and vision (like their favorite false prophet does), but then say that they are sharing false dreams and visions in order to try and make this scripture stick. The brethren also do not steal words from their neighbor. They quote past prophets both from the scriptures and other latter-day prophets past and present. If that's stealing words from their neighbor then you won't find a true prophet ever, because they pretty much all quoted past prophets or their contemporaries.

I see no issue with that.

I’m speaking from BY to the present, all of those things have been done.

What do I know, I’m just a “critic”.

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

[InfoWarrior82]

I find myself dumbfounded at Elder Hollands remarks, recently given to a congregation of young adults this past Sunday. How anyone could isolate one verse, not even the full verse, from Jeremiah so ignorantly as to form some pleasing message of flattery, is beyond me.

Holland, speaking to the young adults, claims that in the book of Jeremiah, God tells the Israelites that he has set them up as a fortress among the people.

"God said to the early Israelites, “I have set thee for a … fortress among my people”
...
“The ‘thee’ in this passage means us,” Elder Holland told those gathered in the institute’s chapel and participating via broadcast at nearby meetinghouses. “It means that when hard times come, God has sent us to be firm, to be a fortress of strength and protection in the midst of the people — inside the Church and out.”"

He continues,
"“My counsel to you tonight is you have to be strong. You have to be a veritable fortress among the people, for your own sake and for theirs. Be watchful and wise. Study the scriptures and let those lessons from the past fortify you for the opposition that will come again.

“Listen to the voice of our Prophet, one the greatest of God’s gifts in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
...
“Face your doubts. Master your fears. Exert your faith and see the beauty of life unfold before you.”

Elder Holland concluded with his witness that God prevails and left an apostolic blessing on the young adults that they will be protected in the battle of spiritual powers and choose to be faithful.
...
“This is the winning team. Please stay on it despite any opposition that may come.”

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... eam-233117

Essentially, Holland claims that the young adults must stay on the “winning side” (the church) and be a strong fortress within it, so that the opposition won’t come in and affect them.




In the most ironic fashion, Holland ignores the rest of the entire chapter which provides an entirely opposite message. (not just Jeremiah 6, but also 5 and 4)

And what might be found within those chapters?

Why it's only the emphatic harsh rebuke of God upon Israel and Judah, a revelation of their abomination and apostasy, and a brash warning that if they do not repent and enter in on the way, a mighty desolation and destructive siege of the enemy will sweep over them and devour them whole.

Jeremiah 6
1 "Flee to safety, you sons of Benjamin,
From the midst of Jerusalem!
Blow a trumpet in Tekoa
And raise a warning signal over Beth-haccerem;
For evil looks down from the north,
Along with a great destruction.
2 The beautiful and delicate one, the daughter of Zion, I will destroy.
3 Shepherds and their flocks will come to her,
They will pitch their tents around her,
They will pasture, each in his place.
4 ‘Prepare for war against her;
Arise, and let’s attack at noon.
Woe to us, for the day declines,
For the shadows of the evening lengthen!
5 Arise, and let’s attack by night
And destroy her palaces!’”
6 For this is what the Lord of armies says:
“Cut down her trees
And pile up an assault ramp against Jerusalem.
This is the city to be punished,
In whose midst there is only oppression.
7 As a well keeps its waters fresh,
So she keeps fresh her wickedness.
Violence and destruction are heard in her;
Sickness and wounds are constantly before Me.
8 Be warned, Jerusalem,
Or I shall be alienated from you,
And make you a desolation,
An uninhabited land.”
9 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“They will thoroughly glean the remnant of Israel like the vine;
Pass your hand over the branches again
Like a grape gatherer.”
10 To whom shall I speak and give warning,
That they may hear?
Behold, their ears are closed
And they cannot listen.
Behold, the word of the Lord has become for them a rebuke;
They take no delight in it.
11 But I am full of the wrath of the Lord;
I am weary of holding it in.
“Pour it out on the children in the street
And on the gathering of young men together;
For both husband and wife shall be taken,
The old and the very old.
12 Their houses shall be turned over to others,
Their fields and their wives together;
For I will stretch out My hand
Against the inhabitants of the land,” declares the Lord.
13 “For from the least of them to the greatest of them,
Everyone is greedy for gain,
And from the prophet to the priest
Everyone deals falsely.
14 They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
But there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed because of the abomination they had done?
They were not ashamed at all,
Nor did they know even how to be ashamed.
Therefore they will fall among those who fall;
At the time that I punish them,
They will collapse,” says the Lord.
16 This is what the Lord says:
“Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it;
Then you will find a resting place for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’
17 And I set watchmen over you, saying,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But they said, ‘We will not listen.’
18 Therefore hear, you nations,
And know, you congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, earth: behold, I am bringing disaster on this people,
The fruit of their plans,
Because they have not listened to My words,
And as for My Law, they have rejected it also.
20 For what purpose does frankincense come to Me from Sheba,
And the sweet cane from a distant land?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable
And your sacrifices are not pleasing to Me.”
21 Therefore, this is what the Lord says:
“Behold, I am placing stumbling blocks before this people.
And they will stumble against them,
Fathers and sons together;
Neighbor and friend will perish.”
22 This is what the Lord says:
“Behold, there is a people coming from the north land,
And a great nation will be stirred up from the remote parts of the earth.
23 They seize bow and spear;
They are cruel and have no mercy;
Their voice roars like the sea,
And they ride on horses,
Lined up as a man for the battle
Against you, daughter of Zion!”
24 We have heard the report of it;
Our hands are limp.
Anguish has seized us,
Pain like that of a woman in childbirth.
25 Do not go out into the field,
And do not walk on the road;
For the enemy has a sword,
Terror is on every side.
26 Daughter of my people, put on sackcloth
And roll in ashes;
Mourn as for an only son,
A most bitter mourning.
For suddenly the destroyer
Will come against us.
27 “I have made you an assayer and an examiner among My people,
So that you may know and put their way to the test.”
28 All of them are stubbornly rebellious,
Going about as a slanderer;
They are bronze and iron.
They are, all of them, corrupt.
29 The bellows blow fiercely,
The lead is consumed by the fire;
In vain the refining goes on,
But the wicked are not separated.
30 They call them rejected silver,
Because the Lord has rejected them.

Jeremiah 5
“Roam about through the streets of Jerusalem,
And look and take notice.
And seek in her public squares,
If you can find a person,
If there is one who does justice, who seeks honesty,
Then I will forgive her.
2 And although they say, ‘As the Lord lives,’
Certainly they swear falsely.”
3 Lord, do Your eyes not look for honesty?
You have struck them,
But they did not weaken;
You have consumed them,
But they refused to accept discipline.
They have made their faces harder than rock;
They have refused to repent.
4 Then I said, “They are only the poor,
They are foolish;
For they do not know the way of the Lord
Or the judgment of their God.
5 I will go to the great
And speak to them,
For they know the way of the Lord
And the judgment of their God.”
But together they too have broken the yoke
And burst the restraints.
6 Therefore a lion from the forest will kill them,
A wolf of the deserts will destroy them,
A leopard is watching their cities.
Everyone who goes out of them will be torn in pieces,
Because their wrongdoings are many,
Their apostasies are numerous.
7 “Why should I forgive you?
Your sons have forsaken Me
And sworn by those who are not gods.
When I had fed them to the full,
They committed adultery
And stayed at the prostitute’s house.
8 They were well-fed lusty horses,
Each one neighing at his neighbor’s wife.
9 Shall I not punish them for these things?” declares the Lord,
“And shall I not avenge Myself
On a nation such as this?
10 “Go up through her vine rows and destroy,
But do not execute a complete destruction;
Strip away her branches,
For they are not the Lord’s.
11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah
Have dealt very treacherously with Me,” declares the Lord.
12 They have lied about the Lord
And said, “Not He;
Misfortune will not come upon us,
Nor will we see sword or famine.
13 The prophets are as wind,
And the word is not in them.
So it will be done to them!”
14 Therefore, this is what the Lord, the God of armies says:
“Because you have spoken this word,
Behold, I am making My words fire in your mouth,
And this people wood, and it will consume them.
15 Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from far away, you house of Israel,” declares the Lord.
“It is an enduring nation,
It is an ancient nation,
A nation whose language you do not know,
Nor can you understand what they say.
16 Their quiver is like an open grave,
All of them are warriors.
17 They will devour your harvest and your food;
They will devour your sons and your daughters;
They will devour your flocks and your herds;
They will devour your vines and your fig trees;
They will demolish your fortified cities, in which you trust, with the sword.
18 “Yet even in those days,” declares the Lord, “I will not make a complete destruction of you.
19 And it shall come about when they say, ‘Why has the Lord our God done all these things to us?’ then you shall say to them, ‘Just as you have abandoned Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you will serve strangers in a land that is not yours.’
20 “Declare this in the house of Jacob
And proclaim it in Judah, saying,
21 ‘Now hear this, you foolish and senseless people,
Who have eyes but do not see,
Who have ears but do not hear.
22 Do you not fear Me?’ declares the Lord.
‘Do you not tremble in My presence?
For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea,
An eternal limit, and it will not cross over it.
Though the waves toss, they cannot prevail;
Though they roar, they will not cross over it.
23 But this people has a stubborn and rebellious heart;
They have turned aside and departed.
24 They do not say in their heart,
“Let us now fear the Lord our God,
Who gives rain in its season,
Both the autumn rain and the spring rain,
Who keeps for us
The appointed weeks of the harvest.”
25 Your wrongdoings have turned these away,
And your sins have kept good away from you.
26 For wicked people are found among My people,
They watch like fowlers lying in wait;
They set a trap,
They catch people.
27 Like a cage full of birds,
So their houses are full of deceit;
Therefore they have become great and rich.
28 They are fat, they are sleek,
They also excel in deeds of wickedness;
They do not plead the cause,
The cause of the orphan, so that they may be successful;
And they do not defend the rights of the poor.
29 Shall I not punish them for these things?’ declares the Lord,
‘Or shall I not avenge Myself
On a nation such as this?’
30 “An appalling and horrible thing
Has happened in the land:
31 The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love it this way!
But what will you do when the end comes?


Jeremiah 4
9 “And it shall come about on that day,” declares the Lord, “that the heart of the king and the hearts of the leaders will fail; and the priests will tremble, and the prophets will be astonished.”

This is a poorly thought out post and is indicative of someone who’s trying too hard to find fault with the leaders of the Church. The fact of the matter is that in spite of all the negative things Jeremiah had to say in chapter 6 about the Lord’s ancient covenant people of his day, the verse quoted by Elder Holland means exactly what Elder Holland says it means — that the Lord set up his covenant people to be fortresses and towers of holiness in the midst of a fallen world. The only way your complaint could have any validity is if the prophet was saying the Lord never intended for his people to be like fortresses and towers of righteousness. And it’s interesting to see how so many of your fellow critics jumped on your rickety rhetorical bandwagon without realizing your point is totally invalid. In fact, the prophets Jeremiah, Lehi, and many other prophets in Jerusalem at that time, were righteously acting in their divinely appointed roles as towers and fortresses of righteousness set up by the Lord himself to prophetically warn his people of the coming calamities they would face if they continued to refuse to repent. If you think I’m incorrect in my assessment, what to you think the verse in question is referring to?

This chapter and the following chapter, Jeremiah says that the Lord intended for the house of Israel to be a fortress, but lamented that they would be no such thing in the last days and would need to be chastened and humbled before Zion could be built. Just FYI.

Also, who are these prophets of the house of Israel that Jeremiah and Isaiah were criticizing in the last days? We know from Elder Holland's talk, he confirmed that these verses are about the last days, so who are they?

[LDS Watchman]

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Yeah, because it it's not like you backed up your accusation with any evidence.

I guess there is one piece of "evidence" you like to point to. It's those darn false revelations Joseph Smith published in the D&C. Jeremiah 23 must be talking about him.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Not true. None of these things have been done by the prophets of the LDS church.

Yeah, because it it's not like you backed up your accusation with any evidence.

I guess there is one piece of "evidence" you like to point to. It's those darn false revelations Joseph Smith published in the D&C. Jeremiah 23 must be talking about him.

[Alexander]

Oh faithless Israel; how high you are! Your diviners say you are innocent and undefiled, but look at your way in the valley and your doings in the mountains...

Do you know what a diviner is?

[LDS Watchman]

Oh faithless Israel; how high you are! Your diviners say you are innocent and undefiled, but look at your way in the valley and your doings in the mountains...

Do you know what a diviner is?

So you don't know what a diviner is then?

[Alexander]

Jeremiah 8
8 How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the Law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
Has made it into a lie.

[InfoWarrior82]

Oh faithless Israel; how high you are! Your diviners say you are innocent and undefiled, but look at your way in the valley and your doings in the mountains...

Do you know what a diviner is?

So you don't know what a diviner is then?

A false prophet. Easy.

Do you deny that Jeremiah and Isaiah also use the word "prophet" and "priest" when referring to the house of Israel (specifically Ephraim) in the last days?

[Gazelem]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

[David13]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

Hey, they are busy corporate execs.
dc

[Reluctant Watchman]

I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

I'd even question some of that content btw.

[LDS Watchman]

Do you know what a diviner is?

So you don't know what a diviner is then?

A false prophet. Easy.

Do you deny that Jeremiah and Isaiah also use the word "prophet" and "priest" when referring to the house of Israel (specifically Ephraim) in the last days?

Diviner: a person who practices divination : SOOTHSAYER

Words actually have meaning. That don't just mean whatever critics can twist them to mean so they can attack the church.

And this is what Jeremiah says about Ephraim in the last days:

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31

[InfoWarrior82]

So you don't know what a diviner is then?

A false prophet. Easy.

Do you deny that Jeremiah and Isaiah also use the word "prophet" and "priest" when referring to the house of Israel (specifically Ephraim) in the last days?

Diviner: a person who practices divination : SOOTHSAYER

Words actually have meaning. That don't just mean whatever critics can twist them to mean so they can attack the church.

And this is what Jeremiah says about Ephraim in the last days:

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31

You're purposefully leaving out the criticism Jeremiah has for Ephraim and its prophets in the last days. Why?

What these scriptures are laying out is what the Lord WANTED for Ephraim in the last days... but you purposefully leave out WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS. They break the Everlasting Covenant and are chastened with a cursing. Out of this cursing, a remnant of the righteous among them is preserved and is called up to redeem Zion.

[Gazelem]

I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

I'd even question some of that content btw.

Fair, But you got my point right? The meaning was right under his nose probably for most of his 95+ years of his life and he just found out. Even then in his conference talk he said he had to have the help of two Hebrew scholars. So he still didn’t break open his Bible dictionary.

What’s correct/not correct in the Bible dictionary definitely could be a topic of discussion for another day, but at least the meaning of Israel checks out.

[Serragon]

Holland, the same person that brought up the rich young man story from the New Testament in the last conference just to say the story wasn’t about wealth or riches? He took something from the Bible out of context and twisted it??

In 2020, there was a video uploaded to YouTube, I forget the name, but it was an interfaith correlation where he was speaking with a Jewish man. Because of the pandemic, Holland was doing this video from the comfort of his own home. In the video he admitted because of his and the brethren’s demanding callings, they don’t really have time to read the scriptures. Kinda funny teleprompter Holland verse non-teleprompter Holland two completely different things. So when Holland said this it made so much more sense for Nelson to say something like “until recently I didn’t know what ‘Israel’ meant” right in general conference. I mean come on, it’s right in the Bible dictionary.

Can you imagine PSR’s that wake up every day winging the gospel because they don’t read the scriptures?

Our early church leaders knew their scriptures. I think this has been true until fairly recently. I think there are very few today who are scripturists.