Elder Holland misapprehends Jeremiah; wrests isolated verse, and ignores the words of the Lord

[LDS Watchman]

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"

you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

[LDS Watchman]

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

V. 32 likely is referring to something that has not occurred yet. I say this because word linking verses 31, 32, and 33 to various old Testament prophecies allows us to see many of these events have not happened yet (such as the desolating scourge). Again, my interpretation vs yours. But an argument can be made.

The gentiles at large don't even know that a light broke forth among them. The only ones that can reject the light are the ones that the light was presented to. Also, you can link this to 3 Nephi 16 where Christ says that those gentiles that reject a fullness are those that are the Salt that shall lose its savor. We know that anyone referred to as the Salt according to D&C 101 are those that have made covenants with God.

I'm not saying you have to agree with this. You just claim that there are no scriptures or words of Prophets that say apostasy will occur after the fullness was recieved by the gentiles. I'm saying an argument CAN be made viewing the scriptures through a different lense.

I understand your argument and why you believe what you do. I think this interpretation only works if a lot of other scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith are ignored or downplayed, which in my opinion means that it can't be correct. I will respond later with more evidence of what I'm referring to.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I know the scriptures pretty well, which is why I know that you don't know what you are talking about.

"My interpretations trump yours."

Nope. Not at all. He is taking scriptures that clearly apply to the great apostasy and misapplying them to modern times. His timeline is completely messed up. Which is why I keep pointing back to what Jacob 5 and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time. That gives us a clear time check, which shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

He accuse me of not caring about the truth, being blind, being a paid shill, not reading the scriptures, or a being a swine until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the truth one bit. I know the scriptures and I know what the Book of Mormon and the D&C say about the laboreres being sent out for the last time.

I’m not arguing that. You interpret those verses to mean the church can’t be in apostasy or reject the fullness, which is your opinion. That opinion of yours trumps anything anyone else says in your mind. I’d like to know what you think about the statement from Joseph in the “Kingdom of God on the Earth” thread.

[LDS Watchman]

I know the scriptures pretty well, which is why I know that you don't know what you are talking about.

"My interpretations trump yours."

Nope. Not at all. He is taking scriptures that clearly apply to the great apostasy and misapplying them to modern times. His timeline is completely messed up. Which is why I keep pointing back to what Jacob 5 and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time. That gives us a clear time check, which shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

He accuse me of not caring about the truth, being blind, being a paid shill, not reading the scriptures, or a being a swine until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the truth one bit. I know the scriptures and I know what the Book of Mormon and the D&C say about the laboreres being sent out for the last time.

I’m not arguing that. You interpret those verses to mean the church can’t be in apostasy or reject the fullness, which is your opinion. That opinion of yours trumps anything anyone else says in your mind. I’d like to know what you think about the statement from Joseph in the “Kingdom of God on the Earth” thread.

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

[Gadianton Slayer]

"My interpretations trump yours."

Nope. Not at all. He is taking scriptures that clearly apply to the great apostasy and misapplying them to modern times. His timeline is completely messed up. Which is why I keep pointing back to what Jacob 5 and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time. That gives us a clear time check, which shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

He accuse me of not caring about the truth, being blind, being a paid shill, not reading the scriptures, or a being a swine until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the truth one bit. I know the scriptures and I know what the Book of Mormon and the D&C say about the laboreres being sent out for the last time.

I’m not arguing that. You interpret those verses to mean the church can’t be in apostasy or reject the fullness, which is your opinion. That opinion of yours trumps anything anyone else says in your mind. I’d like to know what you think about the statement from Joseph in the “Kingdom of God on the Earth” thread.

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

You think they've been sent out the "last" time. Nephi and Christ both taught that the restoration would happen, but that the true work of gathering would happen after the tribulations. (We've done circles around this idea already in a past thread) The tribs have not happened in earnest. The true gathering has yet to occur. The "work of the Father" will be had by the 144,000. They are not here.

What I can't get over is how many saints are still ok with what the Q15 are peddling. NWO, follow the prophet, don't go astray, take the jab, wear the mask... blah, blah, blah.

[LDS Watchman]

Nope. Not at all. He is taking scriptures that clearly apply to the great apostasy and misapplying them to modern times. His timeline is completely messed up. Which is why I keep pointing back to what Jacob 5 and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time. That gives us a clear time check, which shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

He accuse me of not caring about the truth, being blind, being a paid shill, not reading the scriptures, or a being a swine until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the truth one bit. I know the scriptures and I know what the Book of Mormon and the D&C say about the laboreres being sent out for the last time.

I’m not arguing that. You interpret those verses to mean the church can’t be in apostasy or reject the fullness, which is your opinion. That opinion of yours trumps anything anyone else says in your mind. I’d like to know what you think about the statement from Joseph in the “Kingdom of God on the Earth” thread.

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

[LDS Watchman]

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

You think they've been sent out the "last" time. Nephi and Christ both taught that the restoration would happen, but that the true work of gathering would happen after the tribulations. (We've done circles around this idea already in a past thread) The tribs have not happened in earnest. The true gathering has yet to occur. The "work of the Father" will be had by the 144,000. They are not here.

What I can't get over is how many saints are still ok with what the Q15 are peddling. NWO, follow the prophet, don't go astray, take the jab, wear the mask... blah, blah, blah.

The D&C and Joseph Smith both say that the laborers began to be sent out for the last time in the 1830s. I believe what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say.

Don't really care about your personal beef with the brethren and the church.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’m not arguing that. You interpret those verses to mean the church can’t be in apostasy or reject the fullness, which is your opinion. That opinion of yours trumps anything anyone else says in your mind. I’d like to know what you think about the statement from Joseph in the “Kingdom of God on the Earth” thread.

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

[LDS Watchman]

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

It's clearly a small excerpt from a longer statement. I don't care enough to go hunt the full statement down. If you want my thoughts on it, please provide a link to the full statement so I can see the context.

I will provide the legitimate quotes from Joseph Smith and the D&C about the church being the kingdom of God later.

[Gadianton Slayer]

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

It's clearly a small excerpt from a longer statement. I don't care enough to go hunt the full statement down. If you want my thoughts on it, please provide a link to the full statement so I can see the context.

I will provide the legitimate quotes from Joseph Smith and the D&C about the church being the kingdom of God later.

I already did, the link is in that thread. I’m not going to repost it. When text is underlined with a lighter gray color, that means it’s hyperlinked. That’s where I’ve attached it.

[LDS Watchman]

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

It's clearly a small excerpt from a longer statement. I don't care enough to go hunt the full statement down. If you want my thoughts on it, please provide a link to the full statement so I can see the context.

I will provide the legitimate quotes from Joseph Smith and the D&C about the church being the kingdom of God later.

I already did, the link is in that thread. I’m not going to repost it. When text is underlined with a lighter gray color, that means it’s hyperlinked. That’s where I’ve attached it.

I followed the link. It doesn't provide the full statement, just the short excerpt. The excerpt has a source for the full statement, but no link to it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Don't really care about your personal beef with the brethren and the church.

Shocking

[Gadianton Slayer]

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

It's clearly a small excerpt from a longer statement. I don't care enough to go hunt the full statement down. If you want my thoughts on it, please provide a link to the full statement so I can see the context.

I will provide the legitimate quotes from Joseph Smith and the D&C about the church being the kingdom of God later.

I already did, the link is in that thread. I’m not going to repost it. When text is underlined with a lighter gray color, that means it’s hyperlinked. That’s where I’ve attached it.

I followed the link. It doesn't provide the full statement, just the short excerpt. The excerpt has a source for the full statement, but no link to it.

Go fetch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’ll find it when I’m at home. The statement still stands true.

[Gadianton Slayer]

please provide a link to the full statement so I can see the context.

viewtopic.php?p=1208116#p1208116

[LDS Watchman]

I'm asking anyone to show me where it says that once the laborers are sent out for the last time and the Lord sets his hand again the second time to recover his people of the house of Israel that his people once again go into complete apostasy and are scattered. I do not believe such a scripture or statement by Joseph Smith exists.

Which Kingdom of God on Earth thread are you referring to?

We've shown you 3 Nephi 16 but you reject the interpretation and application, you'll reject anything else that isn't fed to you on a spoon. That's what it comes down to as I've said over and over again, you've already decided what you want to believe. There's really nothing left to discuss.

This thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64013

Yeah 3 Nephi 16 doesn't mean what you think it does, I've already addresses it multiple times. I still need to do a full post addressing more thoroughly though.

Do you happen to have a link to the full quote by Joseph Smith on the Kingdom of God, so I can see it in context?

He said that the Church was the Kingdom of God on several occasions.

*according to your interpretation*... geez, you'll never understand that, will you? And no, you haven't addressed it multiple times. All you do is say, "that's not what it means."

That is the full quote, and it's linked to the Joseph Smith Papers. I don't know of a single legitimate, first-hand instance where Joseph said that this is the kingdom, and it's completely unscriptural as I pointed out.

Here's a letter Joseph Smith wrote to the Elder's of the Church in which he refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophesied kingdom of God in the last days multiple times.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64021

I will have more quotes from Joseph Smith up shortly.

[SPIRIT]

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"

you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

completely wrong - again. Modern Day Mormon Mentality.

The saints were offered the fulness, but never accepted it and lived it -
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT" - just as these scripture say;
and furthermore, were put under condemnation for treating The Book of Mormon lightly.

as I've already stated -
***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 -

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.


*** 3 Nephi 16
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel

NON-MEMBERS CAN NOT SIN AGAINST THE GOSPEL AND REJECT THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
Only a member who has received the gospel can sin against it - and reject the fulness of it.

as I've already said -
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - LIVING THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL-
for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, *
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and REJECTED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL;
(we never accepted and lived it - as these scriptures below show)
and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
* 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be,
by the things which they suffer."

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

as I've also stated -

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

[LDS Watchman]

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"

you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

completely wrong - again. Modern Day Mormon Mentality.

The saints were offered the fulness, but never accepted it and lived it -
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT" - just as these scripture say;
and furthermore, were put under condemnation for treating The Book of Mormon lightly.

as I've already stated -
***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 -

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.


*** 3 Nephi 16
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel

NON-MEMBERS CAN NOT SIN AGAINST THE GOSPEL AND REJECT THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
Only a member who has received the gospel can sin against it - and reject the fulness of it.

as I've already said -
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - LIVING THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL-
for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, *
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and REJECTED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL;
(we never accepted and lived it - as these scriptures below show)
and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
* 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be,
by the things which they suffer."

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

as I've also stated -

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

No, you are wrong Spirit. You can keep copying and pasting the exact same scriptures and misinterpretation of them until the end of time, but you will still be wrong. None of the scriptures say that the church and kingdom of God, which were restored for the LAST time, fall into apostasy again. The scriptures say the exact opposite over and over again.

[SPIRIT]

you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

completely wrong - again. Modern Day Mormon Mentality.

The saints were offered the fulness, but never accepted it and lived it -
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT" - just as these scripture say;
and furthermore, were put under condemnation for treating The Book of Mormon lightly.

as I've already stated -
***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 -

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.


*** 3 Nephi 16
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel

NON-MEMBERS CAN NOT SIN AGAINST THE GOSPEL AND REJECT THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
Only a member who has received the gospel can sin against it - and reject the fulness of it.

as I've already said -
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - LIVING THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL-
for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, *
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and REJECTED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL;
(we never accepted and lived it - as these scriptures below show)
and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
* 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be,
by the things which they suffer."

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

as I've also stated -

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

No, you are wrong Spirit. You can keep copying and pasting the exact same scriptures and misinterpretation of them until the end of time, but you will still be wrong. None of the scriptures say that the church and kingdom of God, which were restored for the LAST time, fall into apostasy again. The scriptures say the exact opposite over and over again.

you sound desperate.
but that's ok. I can understand why - when constantly confronted with truth.

I'm getting really tired of the "all is well in Zion" member; where the church and it's leaders are so great,
and can do no wrong, and the Lord is right there with us every step of the way;
when in reality, we have fallen in apostasy,
(read Isaiah - search his words diligently - as the Lord commanded -
the very 1st chapter in Isaiah - telling of our apostasy -wonder WHY he started his book that way)
and are no longer led by the Lord; and therefore, do not receive revelation, and haven't for over a hundred years.

if you don't know that we are in apostasy, you probably never will.
Because those same members, that put their faith and trust in men and their precepts, and not in Jesus Christ and His words,
will never want to see, much less accept that it could even happen; though our scriptures, and all the warnings in them,
and the Words of Christ say otherwise.
Can one fall from grace ?
Can a people ? who once had the gospel lose it ?
This is indeed what happened to a people in that great book we have -
The Book of Mormon - a book of warning. to WHO ?
Who was the book given to ? who reads the Book of Mormon ?
Have we likened the scriptures unto ourselves ?
Have we heeded the warnings from those great prophets that took so much effort in bringing their words and record to us,
and what happened to them, when they too became full of pride, and fell into apostasy.
You care so much about church leaders and what they say; why not Jesus Christ ?
If Jesus Christ was standing right in front of you would you listen to Him ?
His words are right there - read them, as if He was standing right in front of you when you read them, and respect Him and His words, because He is speaking to you.
Have you kept the commandment that He gave ?
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

If you haven't come to the realization that we are in apostasy, then you haven't read the scriptures enough and put THAT (The Word of God above the church and the words of church leaders.)
If - you don't do that, you will NEVER FIND THE TRUTH !

quote
Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.
This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

If you think the Lord still leads the church,
show me any indication of it - any indication at all !
Where are all the revelations received ? - (especially now - when we need it the most)
showing the lord's hand in directing us.
Why have they not been added to our scripture ?
Interesting how our scriptures and revelations in the D&C
ended when we failed to build up Zion.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom,
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

[LDS Watchman]

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

completely wrong - again. Modern Day Mormon Mentality.

The saints were offered the fulness, but never accepted it and lived it -
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT" - just as these scripture say;
and furthermore, were put under condemnation for treating The Book of Mormon lightly.

as I've already stated -
***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 -

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.


*** 3 Nephi 16
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel

NON-MEMBERS CAN NOT SIN AGAINST THE GOSPEL AND REJECT THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
Only a member who has received the gospel can sin against it - and reject the fulness of it.

as I've already said -
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - LIVING THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL-
for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, *
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and REJECTED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL;
(we never accepted and lived it - as these scriptures below show)
and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
* 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be,
by the things which they suffer."

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

as I've also stated -

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

No, you are wrong Spirit. You can keep copying and pasting the exact same scriptures and misinterpretation of them until the end of time, but you will still be wrong. None of the scriptures say that the church and kingdom of God, which were restored for the LAST time, fall into apostasy again. The scriptures say the exact opposite over and over again.

you sound desperate.
but that's ok. I can understand why - when constantly confronted with truth.

I'm getting really tired of the "all is well in Zion" member; where the church and it's leaders are so great,
and can do no wrong, and the Lord is right there with us every step of the way;
when in reality, we have fallen in apostasy,
(read Isaiah - search his words diligently - as the Lord commanded -
the very 1st chapter in Isaiah - telling of our apostasy -wonder WHY he started his book that way)
and are no longer led by the Lord; and therefore, do not receive revelation, and haven't for over a hundred years.

if you don't know that we are in apostasy, you probably never will.
Because those same members, that put their faith and trust in men and their precepts, and not in Jesus Christ and His words,
will never want to see, much less accept that it could even happen; though our scriptures, and all the warnings in them,
and the Words of Christ say otherwise.
Can one fall from grace ?
Can a people ? who once had the gospel lose it ?
This is indeed what happened to a people in that great book we have -
The Book of Mormon - a book of warning. to WHO ?
Who was the book given to ? who reads the Book of Mormon ?
Have we likened the scriptures unto ourselves ?
Have we heeded the warnings from those great prophets that took so much effort in bringing their words and record to us,
and what happened to them, when they too became full of pride, and fell into apostasy.
You care so much about church leaders and what they say; why not Jesus Christ ?
If Jesus Christ was standing right in front of you would you listen to Him ?
His words are right there - read them, as if He was standing right in front of you when you read them, and respect Him and His words, because He is speaking to you.
Have you kept the commandment that He gave ?
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

If you haven't come to the realization that we are in apostasy, then you haven't read the scriptures enough and put THAT (The Word of God above the church and the words of church leaders.)
If - you don't do that, you will NEVER FIND THE TRUTH !

quote
Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.
This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

If you think the Lord still leads the church,
show me any indication of it - any indication at all !
Where are all the revelations received ? - (especially now - when we need it the most)
showing the lord's hand in directing us.
Why have they not been added to our scripture ?
Interesting how our scriptures and revelations in the D&C
ended when we failed to build up Zion.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom,
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

I'm not the one who's desperate here. The scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are on my side.

[SPIRIT]

Where in any of those scriptures does it say that the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel are members of the LDS church? It's the world who reject the fulness of the gospel. The members of the church, who don't apostatize and leave or go completely inactive, are embracing the fulness of the gospel.

completely wrong - again. Modern Day Mormon Mentality.

The saints were offered the fulness, but never accepted it and lived it -
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT" - just as these scripture say;
and furthermore, were put under condemnation for treating The Book of Mormon lightly.

as I've already stated -
***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 -

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.


*** 3 Nephi 16
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel

NON-MEMBERS CAN NOT SIN AGAINST THE GOSPEL AND REJECT THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
Only a member who has received the gospel can sin against it - and reject the fulness of it.

as I've already said -
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - LIVING THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL-
for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, *
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and REJECTED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL;
(we never accepted and lived it - as these scriptures below show)
and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
* 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be,
by the things which they suffer."

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

as I've also stated -

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

No, you are wrong Spirit. You can keep copying and pasting the exact same scriptures and misinterpretation of them until the end of time, but you will still be wrong. None of the scriptures say that the church and kingdom of God, which were restored for the LAST time, fall into apostasy again. The scriptures say the exact opposite over and over again.

you sound desperate.
but that's ok. I can understand why - when constantly confronted with truth.

I'm getting really tired of the "all is well in Zion" member; where the church and it's leaders are so great,
and can do no wrong, and the Lord is right there with us every step of the way;
when in reality, we have fallen in apostasy,
(read Isaiah - search his words diligently - as the Lord commanded -
the very 1st chapter in Isaiah - telling of our apostasy -wonder WHY he started his book that way)
and are no longer led by the Lord; and therefore, do not receive revelation, and haven't for over a hundred years.

if you don't know that we are in apostasy, you probably never will.
Because those same members, that put their faith and trust in men and their precepts, and not in Jesus Christ and His words,
will never want to see, much less accept that it could even happen; though our scriptures, and all the warnings in them,
and the Words of Christ say otherwise.
Can one fall from grace ?
Can a people ? who once had the gospel lose it ?
This is indeed what happened to a people in that great book we have -
The Book of Mormon - a book of warning. to WHO ?
Who was the book given to ? who reads the Book of Mormon ?
Have we likened the scriptures unto ourselves ?
Have we heeded the warnings from those great prophets that took so much effort in bringing their words and record to us,
and what happened to them, when they too became full of pride, and fell into apostasy.
You care so much about church leaders and what they say; why not Jesus Christ ?
If Jesus Christ was standing right in front of you would you listen to Him ?
His words are right there - read them, as if He was standing right in front of you when you read them, and respect Him and His words, because He is speaking to you.
Have you kept the commandment that He gave ?
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

If you haven't come to the realization that we are in apostasy, then you haven't read the scriptures enough and put THAT (The Word of God above the church and the words of church leaders.)
If - you don't do that, you will NEVER FIND THE TRUTH !

quote
Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.
This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

If you think the Lord still leads the church,
show me any indication of it - any indication at all !
Where are all the revelations received ? - (especially now - when we need it the most)
showing the lord's hand in directing us.
Why have they not been added to our scripture ?
Interesting how our scriptures and revelations in the D&C
ended when we failed to build up Zion.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom,
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself",
the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

it's really pointless to continue with someone like you - who's not looking for the truth, but fights against it.
This reply is not for you.
I only post the things I do, for others that will read it and who are looking for the truth.

As I've already said to you in another comment -

I guess we have a learning disability here.
But for the sake of others - other members that are looking for truth,
I am writing this.

Of course the Lord's gospel and true doctrine WAS restored through us - the Gentiles in these last days,
but with that also came a book - a book of warning - The Book of Mormon - the keystone of our religion !
A book of warning to who ? TO US - THE GENTILES - who received the book - those who would read it; ***
and not just to go and preach it to everyone, and think that it applies to everyone else but ourselves.
It's mostly for us and applies to us more than ANYONE ! - those that received the restored gospel.

But NOW the church that was originally restored is NOTHING like
the Corporation that we see now - that has become polluted and corrupt, and has joined Babylon
and follow those evil secret combinations (that we were warned about) that control the World.

And no amount of scripture wresting and insults will change the truth of what the scriptures are saying
and what the Lord has declared about the Gentiles in the last days, and how those (the LDS church)
who received the restored gospel would not heed the warnings given by those (in the Book of Mormon)
who also once were blessed and received the Lord's gospel, but then became rich and proud
and fell into apostasy and lost it - just as we have.


*** someone made this comment some time ago.

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief.
There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days,
we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves.
Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right...
The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted
warning those who will never read the book."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"where much is given, much is required"

Having the gospel restored to us is a great responsibility - one that we've not been able to live up to.
In every way we have failed - from the beginning - when the Lord want the saints to establish Zion ********


********
Why is the church still under condemnation ?
because of members like you see right here in this forum, that treat the Book of Mormon lightly.
Because most members seem to care more about defending their church leaders and THEIR words; and their own opinions
than they do in Christ and HIS - WORDS - and keeping the commandment He gave -
to search diligently the words of Isaiah ***** (at bottom)
as found in The Book of Mormon - A Book of Warning.
Warning to who ? TO US. Warning us to not make the same mistakes as they did. But we have,
and just like they, after receiving the gospel, we've become proud - thinking we could never fall into apostasy and lose it,
BUT WE HAVE.

Why do we always think that the parts in our scriptures - the warnings for us - as Gentiles,
and the things that say we are not living up to what we need to and are condemning
are always for the other guy - for non-members -
especially when even the Lord put the whole church under condemnation - for this very reason - for treating the
Book of Mormon lightly.
We want to preach the Book of Mormon to the entire World, but apply it to everyone but ourselves;
the ones who the book came to.

Where much is given - much is required.

We failed to establish Zion and LIVE the fulness - as the Lord directed; *** (below)
and furthermore, we were put under condemnation for treating to Book of Mormon lightly.

Ezra T. Benson has said that we were under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4; or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

We are still under condemnation.
"Condemnation Upon the LDS People Has Never Been Lifted"

"In the year 1832, just two years after the time when the LDS Church was established, a scourge and condemnation
was placed upon the current LDS people for their disobedience to the Lord.
This curse and pending judgement has never been lifted:"

WHEN we proud members stop thinking we are so good and the church is ALWAYS in the right
and can do no wrong, and start heeding the warnings that are in Isaiah and
the Book of Mormon FOR US,
maybe than, and ONLY then
will the Lord lift the condemnation that we have been under for so many years for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and come to the truth and be saved from the tribulations that are coming upon us.

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.


***
When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints live the fulness of the Gospel, and to be united - (United Order)
living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church
and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***** words of Isaiah
unfortunately, too many members care more about what the leaders of the church say
than to what Christ says, and keeping the commandment that He gave, to not only read,
but to search diligently the words of Isaiah.

"How some members can put their trust in anyone but the Lord - (I just SMH)
and keeping the commandment He gave to read Isaiah - not only to read but
to "search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
He didn't tell us to do this just to give us a nice history listen.
The Lord wouldn't have given this - A COMMANDMENT if it wasn't important and going to apply to us today.
THIS IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKING AND GIVING US A COMMANDMENT ! - not just some quote
from so-called prophet or someone,
so we'd better listen, and keep this commandment.

********** "HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !
Isaiah brings to light our apostasy - the follies of "the drunkards of Ephraim" (church leaders) Isa 28
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary
audio
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/ ... aiah28.mp3

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"

"HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"
********** Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.


So, isn't it just a little more than just a coincidence,
that here - first we were put under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and when we search the Book of Mormon we have the Lord giving us this commandment
to "search diligently" the words of Isaiah,
and when we do, and start to read Isaiah,
what do we find in the very 1st Chapter of the Book ?
We find that Isaiah begins his book with our apostasy.
Hmm - now that's interesting isn't it.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.

***
4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally.
The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him.
They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had.
The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete.
As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses."

[SPIRIT]

of course - the church knows nothing about the book of Isaiah,
because they don't have

"the spirit of prophecy"

here's another way - on how to judge a true prophet.
Conference is coming up, and maybe some can see if they can hear -
"The Spirit of Prophecy"

quote

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."
not just listen to nice talks that they took months to prepare.

If Jesus himself has said -

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ? and if they don't understand him,
do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?

"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy "
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

"The scriptures warn us that in the last days there will be prophets who do not prophesy and seers who do not see (Isaiah 30:10). Jesus also warned that there would be false prophets and an abundance of men teaching their own precepts to get gain, so that even the very elect will be deceived (2 Nephi 26:29; JS Matthew 1:22).

As Latter-day Saints we must learn what a true prophet is
and we must learn to discern between true and false prophets lest we also be deceived.

The scriptures provide a standard by which we can all judge.
Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet. This is the sign.

As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy.
We should measure carefully what is being said. We should pray that those who we sustain as prophets will prophesy and speak prophetically because when prophets and seers, prophesy and see, they become a great benefit to their fellow man (Mosiah 8:18). This is the means whereby we can receive salvation.
If men who are called prophets do not have the spirit of prophecy we can know they are false prophets.
Nephi gives us an important bar by which we can measure:

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy (2 Nephi 25:4).

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others that the words of Isaiah are great!

When’s the last time you heard an LDS prophet give a talk on the words of Isaiah in General Conference?
When Jesus came to the Nephites, He gave them the “commandment to search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Do the servants of the Lord today emphasize this same commandment?

Today’s prophets write books such as: Counseling With Our Councils,
The Christmas Train, A Future As Bright As Your Faith, To The Rescue, Forget Me Not, and 21 Principles.

The above may be excellent topics,
but why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness.

If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?

I leave that for you to judge."

end quote

[SPIRIT]

of course - the church knows nothing about the book of Isaiah,
because they don't have

"the spirit of prophecy"

here's another way - on how to judge a true prophet.
Conference is coming up, and maybe some can see if they can hear -
"The Spirit of Prophecy"

quote

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."
not just listen to nice talks that they took months to prepare.

If Jesus himself has said -

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ? and if they don't understand him,
do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?

"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy "
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

"The scriptures warn us that in the last days there will be prophets who do not prophesy and seers who do not see (Isaiah 30:10). Jesus also warned that there would be false prophets and an abundance of men teaching their own precepts to get gain, so that even the very elect will be deceived (2 Nephi 26:29; JS Matthew 1:22).

As Latter-day Saints we must learn what a true prophet is
and we must learn to discern between true and false prophets lest we also be deceived.

The scriptures provide a standard by which we can all judge.
Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet. This is the sign.

As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy.
We should measure carefully what is being said. We should pray that those who we sustain as prophets will prophesy and speak prophetically because when prophets and seers, prophesy and see, they become a great benefit to their fellow man (Mosiah 8:18). This is the means whereby we can receive salvation.
If men who are called prophets do not have the spirit of prophecy we can know they are false prophets.
Nephi gives us an important bar by which we can measure:

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy (2 Nephi 25:4).

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others that the words of Isaiah are great!

When’s the last time you heard an LDS prophet give a talk on the words of Isaiah in General Conference?
When Jesus came to the Nephites, He gave them the “commandment to search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Do the servants of the Lord today emphasize this same commandment?

Today’s prophets write books such as: Counseling With Our Councils,
The Christmas Train, A Future As Bright As Your Faith, To The Rescue, Forget Me Not, and 21 Principles.

The above may be excellent topics,
but why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness.

If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?

I leave that for you to judge."

end quote

and why would the church want to recognize and acknowledge Isaiah 28
when it condemns them.

And I'll refer you to the real meaning of Isaiah 28
Isaiah 28
The Drunkards of Ephraim - (church leaders)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60630&p=1134855#p1134855
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60310&p=1125139&hil ... o#p1125139

"ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Isaiah has now been unsealed and brought to light by the Lord for our understanding in these last days.

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.

Isaiah 42
9 The prophecies of the former events
indeed came to pass,
but new things I yet foretell.
Before they spring up I declare them to you.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

Isaiah’s Prophecy Relates to Two Time Frames Simultaneously,
(1) Isaiah’s day; and (2) “the last days” or “end-time” NOW !
https://www.latterdaylight.com/the-latt ... am-gileadi
https://www.latterdaylight.com/studies- ... -of-isaiah


"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

"O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?”
(Isaiah 42:17–20).

He IS speaking about the church and it's leaders - The Drunkards of Ephraim.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61104&p=1146349&hil ... d#p1146349

Isaiah 28 audio Avraham Gileadi
https://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/ ... aiah28.mp3

I find it absurd that some, (the "all is well in Zion" crowd ) can say that Isaiah 28 has nothing to do with the church,
while the church itself says that Isaiah 29 does.

quote
"First we must note here that Isaiah is speaking to "the drunkards of Ephraim”.
There is no question that the Latter-Day Saints refer to themselves as “Ephraim” and there is no question that the Church teaches that the very next chapter of Isaiah (chapter 29) refers to our day or the coming forth of the Church, and the Book of Mormon. Therefore, it would seem quite logical that Isaiah 28 would also refer to Ephraim of our day."

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

If you want a big wake up call please read and study the 28th chapter of Isaiah,
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

That's where the Lord has laid a trap for us.
Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."