Elder Holland misapprehends Jeremiah; wrests isolated verse, and ignores the words of the Lord

[Gadianton Slayer]

Ok... a few things.

The verses you are referring to is the completion of the work of the Father, which has been underway for almost 200 years. It's talking about the climax, which happens after the meeting in Adam-ondi-Ahman and the sealing of the 144K. The work currently underway is building up to that.

Interesting thought. I don't agree, but I've already discussed that in my other thread.

The work of the Father begins well before the "tribulation" you are referring to. It begins when the Book of Mormon comes forth and the Lord's one true church is restored for the last time, which happened in 1830.

Nowhere in there does He say that His church was established at the time that the BoM came forth. Instead, He mentions His church being restored AFTER the tribulation just prior to the building of the New Jerusalem.

"They" is referring to the Gentiles, aka you and I.

• 21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

(hasn't happened yet)

• 22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Matches perfectly with 3 Nephi 16. Where does He say that His church was already established? Still not seeing it... Not even D&C 115 states that the church was established, it only tells us what His church will be called in the last days. That doesn't mean that just because they decided to name the LDS organization after it that it's magically His church. I've come to realize that all of our discussions will likely come back to this point; and yes, both sides are supported scripturally to an extent. It all comes down to interpretation. I absolutely see that the doctrine taught by Christ in the BoM differs from what the LDS org teaches today, but you justify all of their additional requirements (ex: sustaining leaders, WoW, tithing... etc).

You sound quite similar to Lawrence Corbridge.

D&C 1:30 even implies that Christ's church wasn't established:

• "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—"

Joseph laying the foundation (BoM and doctrines) is not the same as establishing Christ's church. I've already run through what the BoM teaches about the church of Christ, and it's nothing like the LDS org.

It's not here yet.

[Luke]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

[Luke]

Joseph Fielding Smith knew what was happening:

“It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road?” (Joseph Fielding Smith's Journal, 28 December 1938)

[Gadianton Slayer]

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias...

Perhaps “Matthias” was the “path of darkness” in his story... he’s a changed man now
viewtopic.php?p=1206138#p1206138

[Gadianton Slayer]

Joseph Fielding Smith knew what was happening:

“It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road?” (Joseph Fielding Smith's Journal, 28 December 1938)

If this statement is legitimate, then I’d say even Joseph JR. knew:

”We have thieves among us, adulterers, liars, hypocrites. If God should speak from heaven, he would command you not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to covet, nor deceive, but be faithful over a few things. As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved, and while our hearts are filled with evil, and we are studying evil, there is no room in our hearts for good, or studying good. Is not God good? Then you be good; if He is faithful, then you be faithful. Add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, and seek for every good thing.

"The Church must be cleansed, and I proclaim against all iniquity. A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.” (TPJS, p. 217)

[LDS Watchman]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

[LDS Watchman]

The deal is that I'm tired of your childish games. Trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

Elder Holland was not saying that the majority of Jeremiah 5 and 6 (all of the condemnations of ancient apostate Israel) were referring to us. He said that we have been set up as tower and a fortress in the last days, which I showed matched up with D&C 101. He was saying that we have been set up as a tower and fortress to gather Israel in the last days, because until the people are converted and join the Lord's church they are still in the apostate and scattered condition Jeremiah and many other prophets prophesied about.

I have also already addressed the condemnation in D&C 84 multiple times. There's no record of Joseph Smith having ever mentioned. It wasn't even published until 3 years after the revelation was received. No one knew about it and no one cared. It's not what you are making it out to be.

You think I'm playing games by pointing out the obvious that Jeremiah Ch 5 and 6 is completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?


It's completely laughable that you think the Lord putting this church under condemnation is not a big deal.

You're playing games by putting words in mouth. That's childish.

Where does it say in Jeremiah 5 and 6 that Jeremiah is "completely trashing the latter day House of Israel (us)?" It doesn't say that anywhere and Joseph Smith clearly said that we are associated with the scriptures that come after the apostasy and scattering of the people described in those chapters.

Your extremist interpretation of the condemnation in D&C 84 is what's laughable. Joseph Smith never mentioned it and didn't even publish it for 3 years. Then he and the Lord repeatedly praised the Saints for their righteousness and for fulfilling the Lord's work in the last days. But yeah, somehow a few verses that no one ever talked about meant the church was evil and now all the condemnations of ancient Israel somehow apply to the restored church? Give me a break. This is ridiculous.

Elder Holland says that Chapters 5 and 6 of Jeremiah is speaking to today's Restored Church... Kinda in the original post and topic title of this thread, actually. Which is why I'm confused. I had thought that you admitted this fact and apparently I misunderstood. For that, I apologize.


Do you have references to J.S. saying these chapters are actually not relevant to the latter day House of Israel?


And lastly, your interpretation of D&C 84 was a slap on the hand for not building the temple. But --- we have lots of temples today, and even President Benson knew that this condemnation is still not lifted yet.

Elder Holland was drawing a parallel between a single verse and the church. Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and many prophets have used a single isolated verse and applied it out of context to make a point. The church was set up to be a watchtower and fortress over apostate Israel. He was not saying that the condemnation of the ancient wicked house of Israel apply to the restored church in the last days. I'm not saying that either.

I have provided the reference where Joseph Smith said that we are fulfilling Jeremiah 31:31-33, which parallels all of the other scriptures from Jeremiah I quoted to you earlier about the Lord reestablishing his covenant, gathering his people, and those people becoming righteous and fruitful.

You and other here take for granted that all of the condemnations by Jeremiah upon ancient Israel are really secretly talking about Israel in the last days. But nowhere in the text of Jeremiah does it say that. It says the opposite and so did Joseph Smith.

I never said that the condemnation in D&C 84 was a slap on the wrist for not building the temple. I have no idea where you are getting that from.

I said that it was a general condemnation upon individuals within the church who don't take the Book of Mormon and commandments in the D&C seriously. That condemnation remains and will remain, until every single member takes the Book of Mormon and D&C seriously. Those members who don't take it seriously are under condemnation and those who do aren't.

[LDS Watchman]

No problem. Here you go:

"The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31: 31, 32 and 33."

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

[SPIRIT]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

[Gadianton Slayer]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

Yep. Joseph understood the scriptures and didn't justify everything to fit the narrative that the LDS org would "stand forever." The words of Christ are lost on some.

[Reluctant Watchman]

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

[Robin Hood]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

This is clearly speaking of the Gentiles of the early Christian church. Joseph is not specifically speaking of the LDS here.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

This is clearly speaking of the Gentiles of the early Christian church. Joseph is not specifically speaking of the LDS here.

It is rather accurate to our current situation though. 3 Nephi 16 says that same thing, and I don't believe that the Lord is speaking to the early Christians in that context.

[SPIRIT]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

it's so obvious you're not looking for the truth.
Why do you continue to fight against it ?
I've posted and commented to you, so many times - showing you and proving this to you by what the scriptures say.
You obviously do not care to read anything anyone has said to you, or are not looking for the truth.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever bother to waste time anymore replying to you.

Do you work for the church ?
Did you come here just to try to defend it ?
If you did, you're not doing a very good job.

you are not aware - because you don't read and know the scriptures.
It's all through our scriptures ! our apostasy and losing the gospel back to The House of Israel.

The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)


"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
The Lord doesn't say if, he says WHEN

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you:
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things,
and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you;
but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge
of the fulness of my gospel.

---------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

"The great and marvelous work - includes the restoration of the gospel, but that's just the beginning.
Most of the Lord's "great and marvelous work" of which Nephi speaks is still future. - with the entire purpose being -
to restore the Lord's ancient covenant people - The House of Israel.
And the man that shall declare it, (verse 9) is the Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant that
"brings forth (these great and marvelous revelations )unto the Gentiles" - being
the words of Christ (the sealed portion) (verse 11) to the church, but they don't believe it (verse 9)
and "he shall be marred because of them" (verse 10) (these words condemn the Lord's people - our church)
And because they reject these new revelations and the words of Christ and His servant,
"(it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant." (verse 11)

quote
"When the Lord's servant comes to us with the words of Christ (sealed portion)
and we reject them, and him, we will have filled the full measure of our iniquity
and the Lord will take the gospel from us, and give it back to the House of Israel.
hence "the first will be last, and last first"
And when that happens, The Times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled.

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

quote
"These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings.
They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them.
Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them.
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long.
But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy;
Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ."

[LDS Watchman]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

Read the rest of that quote and you will see it doesn't mean what you are implying. He is talking about when the gospel went to the Gentiles shortly after the death of Christ, not when the church was restored in 1830 for the last time.

[LDS Watchman]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

it's so obvious you're not looking for the truth.
Why do you continue to fight against it ?
I've posted and commented to you, so many times - showing you and proving this to you by what the scriptures say.
You obviously do not care to read anything anyone has said to you, or are not looking for the truth.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever bother to waste time anymore replying to you.

Do you work for the church ?
Did you come here just to try to defend it ?
If you did, you're not doing a very good job.

you are not aware - because you don't read and know the scriptures.
It's all through our scriptures ! our apostasy and losing the gospel back to The House of Israel.

The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)


"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
The Lord doesn't say if, he says WHEN

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you:
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things,
and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you;
but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge
of the fulness of my gospel.

---------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

"The great and marvelous work - includes the restoration of the gospel, but that's just the beginning.
Most of the Lord's "great and marvelous work" of which Nephi speaks is still future. - with the entire purpose being -
to restore the Lord's ancient covenant people - The House of Israel.
And the man that shall declare it, (verse 9) is the Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant that
"brings forth (these great and marvelous revelations )unto the Gentiles" - being
the words of Christ (the sealed portion) (verse 11) to the church, but they don't believe it (verse 9)
and "he shall be marred because of them" (verse 10) (these words condemn the Lord's people - our church)
And because they reject these new revelations and the words of Christ and His servant,
"(it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant." (verse 11)

quote
"When the Lord's servant comes to us with the words of Christ (sealed portion)
and we reject them, and him, we will have filled the full measure of our iniquity
and the Lord will take the gospel from us, and give it back to the House of Israel.
hence "the first will be last, and last first"
And when that happens, The Times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled.

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

quote
"These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings.
They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them.
Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them.
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long.
But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy;
Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ."

No, I don't work for the church, but my goal is most definitely to defend it because I know this is the Lord's true church. I know that because the spirit has manifested this to me over and over again and because the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say so.

I know the scriptures pretty well, which is why I know that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I know the scriptures pretty well, which is why I know that you don't know what you are talking about.

"My interpretations trump yours."

[Alexander]

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias...

Perhaps “Matthias” was the “path of darkness” in his story... he’s a changed man now
viewtopic.php?p=1206138#p1206138

It’s the 3 glories.

Matthias - Telestial
Logan - Terrestrial
Atticus - Celestial

[SPIRIT]

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again.

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

it's so obvious you're not looking for the truth.
Why do you continue to fight against it ?
I've posted and commented to you, so many times - showing you and proving this to you by what the scriptures say.
You obviously do not care to read anything anyone has said to you, or are not looking for the truth.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever bother to waste time anymore replying to you.

Do you work for the church ?
Did you come here just to try to defend it ?
If you did, you're not doing a very good job.

you are not aware - because you don't read and know the scriptures.
It's all through our scriptures ! our apostasy and losing the gospel back to The House of Israel.

The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)


"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
The Lord doesn't say if, he says WHEN

3 Nephi 16
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you:
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things,
and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you;
but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge
of the fulness of my gospel.

---------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

"The great and marvelous work - includes the restoration of the gospel, but that's just the beginning.
Most of the Lord's "great and marvelous work" of which Nephi speaks is still future. - with the entire purpose being -
to restore the Lord's ancient covenant people - The House of Israel.
And the man that shall declare it, (verse 9) is the Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant that
"brings forth (these great and marvelous revelations )unto the Gentiles" - being
the words of Christ (the sealed portion) (verse 11) to the church, but they don't believe it (verse 9)
and "he shall be marred because of them" (verse 10) (these words condemn the Lord's people - our church)
And because they reject these new revelations and the words of Christ and His servant,
"(it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant." (verse 11)

quote
"When the Lord's servant comes to us with the words of Christ (sealed portion)
and we reject them, and him, we will have filled the full measure of our iniquity
and the Lord will take the gospel from us, and give it back to the House of Israel.
hence "the first will be last, and last first"
And when that happens, The Times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled.

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

quote
"These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings.
They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them.
Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them.
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long.
But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy;
Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ."

The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"

[Gadianton Slayer]

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

it's so obvious you're not looking for the truth.
Why do you continue to fight against it ?
I've posted and commented to you, so many times - showing you and proving this to you by what the scriptures say.
You obviously do not care to read anything anyone has said to you, or are not looking for the truth.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever bother to waste time anymore replying to you.

Do you work for the church ?
Did you come here just to try to defend it ?
If you did, you're not doing a very good job.

you are not aware - because you don't read and know the scriptures.
It's all through our scriptures ! our apostasy and losing the gospel back to The House of Israel.

The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)


"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
The Lord doesn't say if, he says WHEN

3 Nephi 16
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you:
At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things,
and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you;
but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge
of the fulness of my gospel.

---------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

"The great and marvelous work - includes the restoration of the gospel, but that's just the beginning.
Most of the Lord's "great and marvelous work" of which Nephi speaks is still future. - with the entire purpose being -
to restore the Lord's ancient covenant people - The House of Israel.
And the man that shall declare it, (verse 9) is the Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant that
"brings forth (these great and marvelous revelations )unto the Gentiles" - being
the words of Christ (the sealed portion) (verse 11) to the church, but they don't believe it (verse 9)
and "he shall be marred because of them" (verse 10) (these words condemn the Lord's people - our church)
And because they reject these new revelations and the words of Christ and His servant,
"(it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant." (verse 11)

quote
"When the Lord's servant comes to us with the words of Christ (sealed portion)
and we reject them, and him, we will have filled the full measure of our iniquity
and the Lord will take the gospel from us, and give it back to the House of Israel.
hence "the first will be last, and last first"
And when that happens, The Times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled.

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

quote
"These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings.
They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them.
Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them.
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long.
But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy;
Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ."

The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"

This is exactly what's implied in D&C 84, yet most will largely ignore that chapter and claim that it's not applicable.

[SPIRIT]

Yes you are and I know you are because I know that you are Matthias and that you have previously posted endlessly about it before like we all have. You have read thousands of posts on the subject, including my "Apostasy of the Latter Days" thread which you added many of your own to. Please stop pretending.

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

Read the rest of that quote and you will see it doesn't mean what you are implying. He is talking about when the gospel went to the Gentiles shortly after the death of Christ, not when the church was restored in 1830 for the last time.

may be - the first part.
but this obviously applies to us as well.

"but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

example:
he says - "the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5);
and have become high-minded, and have not feared; "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changed The Ordinance Broken The Everlasting Covenant

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith declared that;
“It is the L. D. Saints who have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broke the everlasting covenant.”
Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret News, Church Section, Oct. 17, 1936)

Isaiah 24

5 The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances,
set at nought the ancient covenant.
6 The curse devours the earth, for those who dwell on it have incurred guilt; because of it the population of the earth shall be diminished and little of mankind remain.

Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” (hoq)
and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” (torot), thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14).
--------------------------
continuing
then Joseph says

"therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family."

so right there - he is talking about our time now and the gathering in the end - with "the chosen family" -
which is - of course - The House of Israel"
------------------------------------------------------------------
continuing
"Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness?
This is certainly the case."

sounds exactly like us - and what will happen to us -
just like all the other scriptures that testify of this and our apostasy.

[Hosh]

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

V. 32 likely is referring to something that has not occurred yet. I say this because word linking verses 31, 32, and 33 to various old Testament prophecies allows us to see many of these events have not happened yet (such as the desolating scourge). Again, my interpretation vs yours. But an argument can be made.

The gentiles at large don't even know that a light broke forth among them. The only ones that can reject the light are the ones that the light was presented to. Also, you can link this to 3 Nephi 16 where Christ says that those gentiles that reject a fullness are those that are the Salt that shall lose its savor. We know that anyone referred to as the Salt according to D&C 101 are those that have made covenants with God.

I'm not saying you have to agree with this. You just claim that there are no scriptures or words of Prophets that say apostasy will occur after the fullness was recieved by the gentiles. I'm saying an argument CAN be made viewing the scriptures through a different lense.

[SPIRIT]

Yeah again this has been stated many times and you disagree with it and that's fine. But this is all part of the great and marvelous work and wonder. I believe it commenced at that time but has not come to fruition yet. The Lord did set his hand again to recover his people, but his process of doing that has been happening since the days of Joseph till now and will continue to happen through the tribulation and up to the second coming of Christ. There are many things Christ says to the Nephites that I believe have not happened yet that are part of that marvelous work and wonder. One of these things Is the changing of tides where the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews first recieved the Gospel from Christ and the torch per say was handed from them to the gentiles. The gentiles then fell into apostasy, until Joseph came along and offered them the fullness as Moses did the Jews. Christs church was established again with Priesthood authority and power. But The Gentiles then reject that fullness and the lesser law and priesthood remained (D&C 45; D&C 84; 3Nephi 16).(I believe we are still Christ's church just operating under a lesser law due to sin and idolatry. I know some here will disagree). Once we are ripe in iniquity which Christ says to the Nephites will happen, destruction will occur and the torch will get handed then back to the House of Israel. But the gentiles play a major role in this happening and the repentant gentiles can and will be grafted in. In my perpective, that quote from JS fits perfectly fine with what I believe. Nobody is disagreeing with you that this started in JS's day. You are saying that's when it HAPPENED am I correct? I am saying that's when it started.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I get what you are saying.

No, I'm not saying that it Happened Joseph's day. I'm also saying that it started then and that it's a process with more to come.

But I'm not aware of any scriptures or statements by Joseph Smith that say that the church goes into apostasy again and that we get scattered again. And if we read Jeremiah, it's clearly talking about Israel and not the Gentiles.

D&C 45

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

So what is your interpretation of these verses? What about these verses makes you believe that it means that the restored church will fall into apostasy again and be scattered?

Notice the contrast between what the Gentiles at large do with the light and what the Saviors disciples do with it. (verse 32) The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it and many are standing in holy places and remaining firm against the wickedness of the world, in spite of the waves and the storm that is raging all around them.

"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"

you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
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Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

[LDS Watchman]

I know the scriptures pretty well, which is why I know that you don't know what you are talking about.

"My interpretations trump yours."

Nope. Not at all. He is taking scriptures that clearly apply to the great apostasy and misapplying them to modern times. His timeline is completely messed up. Which is why I keep pointing back to what Jacob 5 and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time. That gives us a clear time check, which shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

He can accuse me of not caring about the truth, being blind, being a paid shill, not reading the scriptures, or a being a swine until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the truth one bit. I know the scriptures and I know what the Book of Mormon and the D&C say about the laborers being sent out for the last time.

[LDS Watchman]

My name is Atticus and I'm not pretending.

I'm not aware of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that says that the church goes into apostasy again and is scattered. Not going to read through an entire thread. Which scriptures and statements in particular do you believe are referring to the church going into apostasy again and being scattered?

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off: but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

Read the rest of that quote and you will see it doesn't mean what you are implying. He is talking about when the gospel went to the Gentiles shortly after the death of Christ, not when the church was restored in 1830 for the last time.

may be - the first part.
but this obviously applies to us as well.

"but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

example:
he says - "the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5);
and have become high-minded, and have not feared; "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changed The Ordinance Broken The Everlasting Covenant

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith declared that;
“It is the L. D. Saints who have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broke the everlasting covenant.”
Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret News, Church Section, Oct. 17, 1936)

Isaiah 24

5 The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances,
set at nought the ancient covenant.
6 The curse devours the earth, for those who dwell on it have incurred guilt; because of it the population of the earth shall be diminished and little of mankind remain.

Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” (hoq)
and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” (torot), thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14).
--------------------------
continuing
then Joseph says

"therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family."

so right there - he is talking about our time now and the gathering in the end - with "the chosen family" -
which is - of course - The House of Israel"
------------------------------------------------------------------
continuing
"Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness?
This is certainly the case."

sounds exactly like us - and what will happen to us -
just like all the other scriptures that testify of this and our apostasy.

Again, his entire statement when taken in context is about the Gentiles who received the gospel 2000 years ago, not the members of the LDS church. You can BELIEVE that it ALSO applies to us. But Joseph Smith clearly didn't say that.