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Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
by Niyr
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 9:36 am
Atticus wrote: November 16th, 2021, 11:02 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: November 13th, 2021, 3:33 pm My husband has tried to defend the Brethren, although it’s becoming more difficult, and he has been working in his shop all day and knows nothing about this speech of Oaks. I just read him the statement posted above, and he immediately said, “That’s communism!”

Well said, sweetie.
What Oaks said isn't Communism.

The government does have the right and duty to restrict some rights to protect the safety of the majority of Americans.

The government has always done this. And in most cases it doesn't violate the constitution.
100000% false. The duty and right? Show the specific enumerated delegated power listed in the Constitution. Just because government has done it in the past, doesn't mean it is constitutional. And no, they have not always done this.


"What has happened to Liberty in the last 252 years? We have allowed our FEAR to trump our LIBERTY. Our founders worked very hard to create a federal government that would be locked in a limited and defined box. We, their descendants, have turned around and handed the government the keys.

Exigent circumstances, roadside check points, national security, officer safety, are EXPANSIONS of government power; written by government paid lawyers, allowed by government paid judges, and used by government paid agents.

We have succumbed to the fear factor: Trading Liberty to keep us safe is the primary role of government. No, it is not. The primary role of government is NOT national security, it is, as the Constitution clearly mandates, Liberty Security, as in to “Preserve the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.” No truer words were ever penned by William Pitt. However, here we are today accepting the government’s argument of necessity. Out of ignorance and arrogance, fueled by fear, we do not see they are revealing themselves to be tyrants and we are allowing OURSELVES to be slaves."
Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
by LDS Watchman
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 9:36 am
Atticus wrote: November 16th, 2021, 11:02 pm

What Oaks said isn't Communism.

The government does have the right and duty to restrict some rights to protect the safety of the majority of Americans.

The government has always done this. And in most cases it doesn't violate the constitution.
100000% false. The duty and right? Show the specific enumerated delegated power listed in the Constitution. Just because government has done it in the past, doesn't mean it is constitutional. And no, they have not always done this.


"What has happened to Liberty in the last 252 years? We have allowed our FEAR to trump our LIBERTY. Our founders worked very hard to create a federal government that would be locked in a limited and defined box. We, their descendants, have turned around and handed the government the keys.

Exigent circumstances, roadside check points, national security, officer safety, are EXPANSIONS of government power; written by government paid lawyers, allowed by government paid judges, and used by government paid agents.

We have succumbed to the fear factor: Trading Liberty to keep us safe is the primary role of government. No, it is not. The primary role of government is NOT national security, it is, as the Constitution clearly mandates, Liberty Security, as in to “Preserve the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.” No truer words were ever penned by William Pitt. However, here we are today accepting the government’s argument of necessity. Out of ignorance and arrogance, fueled by fear, we do not see they are revealing themselves to be tyrants and we are allowing OURSELVES to be slaves."
Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 3:35 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
NeveR wrote: November 17th, 2021, 2:24 pm I only joined the church a few years ago, but my husband is BiC. He said to me today he no longer recognizes the church he was baptized into and asked me to forgive him for helping me to join.

I said to him the church he knew is STILL THERE - it just can't be found in the old places right now.

I have met some of the best, kindest, most honorable and Godly people I have ever known since marrying my TBM. These people are what the church is really about and where it will survive.
From your husband's (or even my) generation, the church from the 1900s can't be found right now. And for those born in the early 1900s, the church from the early 1800s can't be found. Incremental shifts since Joseph's death.

There will always be good Christian people in all walks of life. I'm just not sure how well the LDS institution will survive. Church leaders are making it difficult for those who want to follow Christ vs. follow them. A division will come.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 3:37 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights.
Serious question here. At what point do you say "enough, is enough"? When do you draw a line in the sand? Which of your rights can they not infringe upon?

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 3:54 pm
by EmmaLee
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 9:36 am 100000% false. The duty and right? Show the specific enumerated delegated power listed in the Constitution. Just because government has done it in the past, doesn't mean it is constitutional. And no, they have not always done this.


"What has happened to Liberty in the last 252 years? We have allowed our FEAR to trump our LIBERTY. Our founders worked very hard to create a federal government that would be locked in a limited and defined box. We, their descendants, have turned around and handed the government the keys.

Exigent circumstances, roadside check points, national security, officer safety, are EXPANSIONS of government power; written by government paid lawyers, allowed by government paid judges, and used by government paid agents.

We have succumbed to the fear factor: Trading Liberty to keep us safe is the primary role of government. No, it is not. The primary role of government is NOT national security, it is, as the Constitution clearly mandates, Liberty Security, as in to “Preserve the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.” No truer words were ever penned by William Pitt. However, here we are today accepting the government’s argument of necessity. Out of ignorance and arrogance, fueled by fear, we do not see they are revealing themselves to be tyrants and we are allowing OURSELVES to be slaves."
Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You don't understand what rights are. None of the things you list above are "rights". ALL of our rights come from GOD. NONE of our rights come from the government, federal or otherwise - therefore, the government may NOT limit or take away our rights, as they have no right to - and when they try to (as they always do), that is entirely and completely unconstitutional. GOD gave us our rights, and only GOD can take them away. Our government exists to secure and protect our God-given rights - not to tamper with them, limit them, or take them away, as all of that is indeed, unconstitutional (and illegal).

These articles help explain what "rights" are - https://thenewamerican.com/rights-versu ... rint=print

https://newswithviews.com/declaration-o ... -from-god/

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
by Niyr
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 9:36 am

100000% false. The duty and right? Show the specific enumerated delegated power listed in the Constitution. Just because government has done it in the past, doesn't mean it is constitutional. And no, they have not always done this.


"What has happened to Liberty in the last 252 years? We have allowed our FEAR to trump our LIBERTY. Our founders worked very hard to create a federal government that would be locked in a limited and defined box. We, their descendants, have turned around and handed the government the keys.

Exigent circumstances, roadside check points, national security, officer safety, are EXPANSIONS of government power; written by government paid lawyers, allowed by government paid judges, and used by government paid agents.

We have succumbed to the fear factor: Trading Liberty to keep us safe is the primary role of government. No, it is not. The primary role of government is NOT national security, it is, as the Constitution clearly mandates, Liberty Security, as in to “Preserve the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves.” No truer words were ever penned by William Pitt. However, here we are today accepting the government’s argument of necessity. Out of ignorance and arrogance, fueled by fear, we do not see they are revealing themselves to be tyrants and we are allowing OURSELVES to be slaves."
Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 4:59 pm
by HVDC
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm

Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
If I can't do it, they can't do it.

We, the People forged the chains and the Constitution

The Constitution placed those chains on the Federal Government.

Then the Federal government placed those same chains on the States.

The Banksters turned it all around.

Took a while, but the Constitution has been a dead letter since 1865.

The 14th Amendment didn't free the Negro slaves, it made all of us slaves.

Citizen = Slave.

Owned by the Federal government.

The Republican form of government ceased when Senators became directly elected.

The President is now America's king.

We are not legally required to pay Federal income taxes.

But we do.

Let's call it what it really is.

Tribute.

Hunger Games anyone?

Predictive programming is real.

They use it.

Why don't we?

Ask and you shall receive, according to your faith.

Predictive programming.

It's a game, you lose if you play.

They lose if you don't.

Stop playing.

Create your own reality.

Or not.

But I warn you, keep playing with $hit and you will eventually get some on you.

Their game is full of $hit.

Good Luck.

Sir H

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
by LDS Watchman
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm

Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:00 pm
by Gadianton Slayer
This is all fine and dandy... if you believe that the men who make those laws aren’t evil.

Ether 8 goes way over most people’s heads.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:12 pm
by LDS Watchman
Gadianton Slayer wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:00 pm This is all fine and dandy... if you believe that the men who make those laws aren’t evil.

Ether 8 goes way over most people’s heads.
Ether 8 doesn't go over my head.

Whether or not people in the government are evil has no bearing on what is or isn't constitutional.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:14 pm
by Gadianton Slayer
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:12 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:00 pm This is all fine and dandy... if you believe that the men who make those laws aren’t evil.

Ether 8 goes way over most people’s heads.
Ether 8 doesn't go over my head.

Whether or not people in the government are evil has no bearing on what is or isn't constitutional.
I’m talking both sides of the conversation, not making a jab at you. No law is going to protect anyone from evil, they own the world. Constitution or no constitution.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:15 pm
by Serragon
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm

No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
This is the modern understanding of consitutional law. And it is unconstitutional.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:18 pm
by LDS Watchman
Serragon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:15 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm

You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
This is the modern understanding of consitutional law. And it is unconstitutional.
That's been the interpretation of Constitutional law for over 200 years. It's completely constitutional.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:23 pm
by Serragon
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:18 pm
Serragon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:15 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm

You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
This is the modern understanding of consitutional law. And it is unconstitutional.
That's been the interpretation of Constitutional law for over 200 years. It's completely constitutional.
No. It is judicially approved. There is a difference.

If any branch of the federal government does something that exceeds their constitutional authority, it does not automatically become constitutional simply because a judge says its OK. It is still unconstitutional, though it is legally permitted. This is often known as "oppression" and "tyranny", not "constitutional'.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 6:24 pm
by Niyr
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm

No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
So you want the government to decide it’s own limits? And you expect me to trust those you revere with degrees from educational curriculum created by and funded by government? Lol typical bootlicker mentality.

You still haven’t been able to enunciate any actual enumerated authority in the Constitution. Zero rebuttal whatsoever.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 7:14 pm
by LDS Watchman
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:24 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm

You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
So you want the government to decide it’s own limits? And you expect me to trust those you revere with degrees from educational curriculum created by and funded by government? Lol typical bootlicker mentality.

You still haven’t been able to enunciate any actual enumerated authority in the Constitution. Zero rebuttal whatsoever.
Your insults and name calling don't change how the government was set up under the Constitution. The Constitution has different levels and branches of the government checking each other's power. That's how it was set up. If you don't recognize that, there's no point in providing any other examples of "enumerated authority."

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 7:16 pm
by LDS Watchman
Serragon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:23 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:18 pm
Serragon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:15 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm

No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
This is the modern understanding of consitutional law. And it is unconstitutional.
That's been the interpretation of Constitutional law for over 200 years. It's completely constitutional.
No. It is judicially approved. There is a difference.

If any branch of the federal government does something that exceeds their constitutional authority, it does not automatically become constitutional simply because a judge says its OK. It is still unconstitutional, though it is legally permitted. This is often known as "oppression" and "tyranny", not "constitutional'.
The Constitution put in place multiple safeguards to prevent tyranny. The fact is that the government can legally and Constitutionally enact laws that limit some rights of citizens. This is simply the way it works.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 7:23 pm
by SempiternalHarbinger
EmmaLee wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:54 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm

Do you know what the Constitution did? It gave a lot more power to the Federal government. One of the reasons was to ensure domestic tranquility.

Rights have constantly been restricted to protect the majority of Americans. The right to produce and sell certain drugs has been restricted. The speed at which you can drive has been restricted. And many other things like this. This is not unconstitutional.
No. The Constitution created a federal government so the states could get on the same page, but it was very limited and has zero delegated authority to take any rights without any due process. Speed is a state and local issue, not federal.
You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights. They have always had this power. It isn't unconstitutional. The Federal government take away your right to can spoiled meat without disclosing it. They can take away your right to produce and sell certain drugs. They can take away your right to do many things in order to ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of Americans at large.
You don't understand what rights are. None of the things you list above are "rights". ALL of our rights come from GOD. NONE of our rights come from the government, federal or otherwise - therefore, the government may NOT limit or take away our rights, as they have no right to - and when they try to (as they always do), that is entirely and completely unconstitutional. GOD gave us our rights, and only GOD can take them away. Our government exists to secure and protect our God-given rights - not to tamper with them, limit them, or take them away, as all of that is indeed, unconstitutional (and illegal).

These articles help explain what "rights" are - https://thenewamerican.com/rights-versu ... rint=print

https://newswithviews.com/declaration-o ... -from-god/
I am mind-blown by some of the comments (more so with Dallin H Oaks) in this thread. WOW! You are absolutely correct EmmaLee!!!! The U.S. Constitution is based on the principles of the Declaration of Independence, beginning with its first premise- that morality is defined by God's will, not (collective or individual) human will. If you reject that premise, you reject what follows from it, which is the whole idea of government limited in its exercise of power by respect for right, as endowed (which is to say provisioned) by God not human (individual or collective) will. The provisions made for human laws and government must therefore respect the provisions of God's law and sovereignty.

The founders are contradicted by the public documents on which they agreed. They refer to God. They say rights and the authority of law are endowments by the Creator. They rely on Divine Providence and appeal "to the Supreme Judge of the World [ a phrase drawn directly from Locke] for the rectitude" of their intentions. (Rectitude means "rightness"), so they regard the Supreme Judge as the final arbiter of what is right, and therefore of the meaning of rights.

Without the understanding of rights and justice articulated in the Constitution is just a body of words without substantive reason to back them up. The Founders invoked God in the very sentence in which they declared the act that brought on the Revolutionary war. War is the most serious moral decision human beings have collectively to make, and they invoked the highest, most central, and most serious moral authority as they did so.

In the political context, phrases like the "Laws of nature" are just meaningless syllables without reference to the sovereign ruler whose will constitutes the authority for the provisions they contain. The Founders explicitly acknowledged God as that authority.

http://citizensoftheamericanconstitutio ... qLIpVv2SqA

#SuperNecessary ^^^

Dallin H Oaks...
I earnestly invite all religious leaders and associations to coalesce more effectively — and that often means out of court — to seek peaceful resolution of painful conflicts between religious freedom and nondiscrimination. This does not require an examination of doctrinal differences or even our many common elements of belief. All that is necessary for unity and a broad coalition to promote our common need for religious freedom is our shared conviction that God has commanded us to love one another, including our neighbors with different beliefs and cultures.[24] This invites all believers, as President Russell M. Nelson has challenged our members, to “expand our circle of love to embrace the whole human family.”[25]

In doing so, we must not allow fears about losing our own freedoms make us insensitive to others’ claims for theirs. Let us unite with those who advocate nondiscrimination to seek a culture and laws that respect the rights of all to the equal protection of the law and the right to the free exercise of religion. From the experience of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I believe we can proceed toward this goal by mutual respect and willing accommodation. The right relationship between religious freedom and nondiscrimination is best achieved by respecting each other enough to negotiate in good faith and by caring for each other enough that the freedom and protection we seek is not for ourselves alone
Oaks sure is cunning. Unbelievable. We have many scriptures that warn us of these types of men... Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Nature is not a human preference or choice. It is a consequence of the Creator's choice. Natural rights are not about respecting human whims. They are a consequence of respect for the limits and boundaries whereby God defines the distinct possibility of human existence, and in so doing sets human nature free. Therefore, the basis for constitutional government in the United States is not respect for equality regardless of right. It is respect for the equality of all who act rightly, which is to say in a way that preserves human nature by observing the limits and boundaries that make its existence possible.

Oaks need to STOP pretending he supports America's Constitution and way of life. Oaks is quickly turning into a moral relativists who believes that right is whatever someone chooses to do, without regard for the "laws of nature and of nature's God."

"... we must not allow fears about losing our own freedoms make us insensitive to others’ claims for theirs. Let us unite with those who advocate nondiscrimination to seek a culture and laws that respect the rights of all to the equal protection of the law "-Oaks

Unbelievable. This leads to "laws" that are nothing but the forceful dictates of whichever whims of human passion prove the most powerful. It leads to a world where "justice" is determined by forceful free will, by might makes right or, as the socialists say, by history. Oaks agrees with the far left socialists on this point. It's no wonder why Oaks ended up on their (wrong) side with respect to all the issues that involve moral judgment. They worship "history" (i.e., the concrete results of human willing), the far left worship human free will. In either case, the "laws of nature and of nature's God" has nothing to do with it.

But they had everything to do with the founding principles of the United States and the framing of the U.S. Constitution, which a so-called prophet, seer, and revelator has tragically decided to abandon. I will be praying for Oaks.

How anyone believes Oaks is a conservative is beyond me. God help us!

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 7:41 pm
by Niyr
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 7:14 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:24 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:30 pm

You lack fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution. Laws the feds pass must abide by the Constitution. There are no powers delegated to the feds for them to just take rights away with laws. Absolutely none.
No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
So you want the government to decide it’s own limits? And you expect me to trust those you revere with degrees from educational curriculum created by and funded by government? Lol typical bootlicker mentality.

You still haven’t been able to enunciate any actual enumerated authority in the Constitution. Zero rebuttal whatsoever.
Your insults and name calling don't change how the government was set up under the Constitution. The Constitution has different levels and branches of the government checking each other's power. That's how it was set up. If you don't recognize that, there's no point in providing any other examples of "enumerated authority."
Checks and balances were never the the argument. Now you’re shifting to another topic and still no actual content from your side of the debate to provide direct sources for your argument that the feds can take rights away with whatever law they decide to impose.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 8:11 pm
by Lizzy60
This sheds some more light on this event:

https://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2 ... 282DBMkE_4

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 8:28 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:37 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights.
Serious question here. At what point do you say "enough, is enough"? When do you draw a line in the sand? Which of your rights can they not infringe upon?
Atti, still waiting... which rights are off limits? When are you gonna say enough?

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 8:35 pm
by LDS Watchman
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 7:41 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 7:14 pm
Niyr wrote: November 17th, 2021, 6:24 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 5:54 pm

No, I'm afraid it's you who lack a fundamental understanding of rights, government, and the Constitution.

What rights Americans have and what limits can be put on them is interpreted by the courts. That's the way the constitution works. And the courts have repeatedly upheld limits on certain rights.
So you want the government to decide it’s own limits? And you expect me to trust those you revere with degrees from educational curriculum created by and funded by government? Lol typical bootlicker mentality.

You still haven’t been able to enunciate any actual enumerated authority in the Constitution. Zero rebuttal whatsoever.
Your insults and name calling don't change how the government was set up under the Constitution. The Constitution has different levels and branches of the government checking each other's power. That's how it was set up. If you don't recognize that, there's no point in providing any other examples of "enumerated authority."
Checks and balances were never the the argument. Now you’re shifting to another topic and still no actual content from your side of the debate to provide direct sources for your argument that the feds can take rights away with whatever law they decide to impose.
I'm not shifting to another topic at all. The power of the government is checked primarily by other levels and branches of the government. That is how it was set up. There is nothing in the Constitution that limits the governments ability to enact laws that restrict the rights of citizens, which aren't expressly enumerated in the Bill of Rights. And even the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are subject to interpretation. And it is the job of the courts to interpret the Constitution.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 8:36 pm
by LDS Watchman
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:28 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:37 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights.
Serious question here. At what point do you say "enough, is enough"? When do you draw a line in the sand? Which of your rights can they not infringe upon?
Atti, still waiting... which rights are off limits? When are you gonna say enough?
My personal line in the sand has no bearing on what is and isn't constitutional.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:28 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:37 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:34 pm You're simply wrong. The government, both national and state, has the power to enact laws that limit American's rights.
Serious question here. At what point do you say "enough, is enough"? When do you draw a line in the sand? Which of your rights can they not infringe upon?
Atti, still waiting... which rights are off limits? When are you gonna say enough?
My personal line in the sand has no bearing on what is and isn't constitutional.
You'd make a great lawyer. Or even better, a politician.

Re: Oaks thinks vax mandates are ok...

Posted: November 17th, 2021, 9:00 pm
by Gadianton Slayer
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
Atticus wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 8:28 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:37 pm
Serious question here. At what point do you say "enough, is enough"? When do you draw a line in the sand? Which of your rights can they not infringe upon?
Atti, still waiting... which rights are off limits? When are you gonna say enough?
My personal line in the sand has no bearing on what is and isn't constitutional.
You'd make a great lawyer. Or even better, a politician.
SP, maybe even GA.