Angels' Wings - What Are They?

[MikeMaillet]

I'm reading Isaiah 6 where Isaiah, in verse 2, describes Seraphs having wings and I'm wondering why wings come in pairs. I've always assumed (yes, I know) that the wings being described by visionaries were not really of the aerodynamic type but rather, they were using the best word available to describe something beyond the ability of spoken language.

I'm curious about why these "wings" always come in pairs.

Thoughts?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[Niemand]

We don't tend to put wings on angels in LDS art, but I always thought it was visual shorthand for how angels are able to fly/hover etc.

Wings come in pairs because many creatures, including humans, and presumably angels, are bilateral, i.e. we have a line down our centre - the spine, with pairs of most things on each side - lungs, arms, ears, legs, nostrils, eyes, limbs, kidneys...

In the case of the seraphim in that verse, they cover their faces with a pair (in deference to the face of God?), fly with another pair and cover their feet with another (respect). The feet are often hidden in Middle Eastern cultures and are considered the lowest parts of the body in more ways than one.

Revelation 4 says there are four seraphim. These may represent the four cardinal directions. They are similar to the beings in Ezekiel 1 but those are supposed to be cherubim.

The seraphim are also supposed to be hot so the wings may represent some kind of fan.

[Baurak Ale]

“An angel of God never has wings” (Joseph Smith, STPJS 162).

“Q. What are we to understand by the eyes and wings, which the beasts had?
“A. Their eyes are a representation of light and knowledge, that is, they are full of knowledge; and their wings are a representation of power, to move, to act, etc.” (D&C 77:4).

Per the foregoing, descriptions of wings in scripture must be symbolic/poetic language, perhaps reinforced through ignorance, as opposed to a literal physical depiction.

Artistically, the visual depiction of wings (as on the ark of the covenant) carried forward this metaphor to the eyes of the beholder. The ancients who had seen angels standing above the earth may have wondered how they could have stayed up there. Based on the world of nature, the deduction that they must have possessed the power of wings (though invisible), which always come in pairs in the animal world, would have been a natural conclusion.

Though we today have the revelatory insight to know that angels are fully human and do not possess actual wings, we are no less at a loss to explain by what power they stay aloft. Being occidental and scientific, our modern sensibilities simply rest on heretofore unknown spiritual “laws” or “powers.”

Someday, that explanation will seem just as archaic as a pair of wings in retrospect.

[Fred]

I'm reading Isaiah 6 where Isaiah, in verse 2, describes Seraphs having wings and I'm wondering why wings come in pairs. I've always assumed (yes, I know) that the wings being described by visionaries were not really of the aerodynamic type but rather, they were using the best word available to describe something beyond the ability of spoken language.

I'm curious about why these "wings" always come in pairs.

Thoughts?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Same reason a one legged man puts a pair of pants on.

[abijah`]

There's a good chance that the wings imagery speaks to a more symbolic significance than corporal. That being said, in my own personal subjective opinion there's something about wings on the human figure that I do find aesthetically pleasing, as if it gives the body of the human figure a sense of artistic completion, but idk.


Anyway, I do find it significant cherubim = hybrids of Land animals + Sky animals. The idea being that of the Heavenly Realm and the Earthly Realm being united within a single entity.

What is the function of wings? The ability to traverse the heavens, the skies.


Now, the scriptural term "heavens" indeed refers to the sky. Straight up, the blue sky (unless you're in England) above you where the fluffy clouds are.

But the term, at least in hebrew, is "heavens" plural. And Paul mentions there being multiple "heavens", as in being "caught up to the third heaven".

Now bear with me, I will tie it back in to the subject of wings later -

• Isaiah 55
  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I suspect that on some level, the "heavens" includes the information plane, i.e. a persons "thoughts".

And then (in Isa 55) you get the parallel term "ways", which I'm not really sure how to interpret in this context tbh

In Noah's day, it was the water that rained down from the heavens that caused the Flood. And sure enough, you get this associated theme of "thoughts"...

• Genesis 6
  The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...
  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

You get these theme of the peoples' "thoughts". This would seem to tie in with how Jesus characterised their watery demise:

• Matthew 24
  For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
  and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I'm pretty sure ^that phrase "and they were unaware" as the ESV renders it, refers to one's cognitive process, one's thoughts. Other versions translate it as "and [they] knew not..." (KJV), or "and they were oblivious..", or "and they understood not..", or "and they did not perceive...", etc.

Genesis 11 and the Tower of Babel seem to be presented as being like the next step in a successive, escalating process. Because what do thoughts naturally become? Words. Language. And all words are preceded by thoughts (ideally at least).

• Genesis 11
  Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built.
  And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
  Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
  Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth.

Flood of Genesis 6 ---> thoughts
Scattering at Babel ---> words

So okay, coming back to the topic of Wings.

I suspect wings might signify mobility and power to act within the information plane, the sphere/dimension which is home to pure intelligence.

The ability to fly through plane of thoughts. Whatever that means, or entails, telepathy, mind-reading? Probably way beyond that tbh

You get similar vibes from other places in the scriptures as well, associating the "heavens" as well as "wings" with the thoughts and imaginations of the heart.

• Doctrine&Covenants 124
  And he shall be led in paths where the poisonous serpent cannot lay hold upon his heel, and he shall mount up in the imagination of his thoughts as upon eagles’ wings.

• Genesis 8
  Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt incense offerings on the altar.
  And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intentions of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

• Jeremiah 4 [replete with references to heavenly things]
  Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined!
  O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you?

• Isaiah 40
  Lift up your eyes to the heavens and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name; by the greatness of his might and because he is strong in power, not one is missing.
  Why do you say, O Jacob, and speak, O Israel, “My way is hidden from the LORD, and my right is disregarded by my God”?
  Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable...
  and they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles

• Jeremiah 6
  Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.
  There’s no use offering me sweet frankincense from Sheba. Keep your fragrant calamus imported from distant lands! I will not accept your incense offerings. Your sacrifices have no pleasing aroma for me [..as the aromatic smoke ascends up into the heavens, where the Lord smells it]

• Psalm 139
  O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
  You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
  You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
  Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
  Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
  Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
  If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
  If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea...
  How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!

• Isaiah 65
  I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own thoughts;
  a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens [which were on mountains, where earth intersects with heaven..] and burning incense [which ascends into the heavens..] upon altars of bricks;

• Psalm 15
  Give ear to my prayer, O God, and hide not yourself from my plea for mercy!
  hear me and answer me. My thoughts trouble me and I am distraught.. because of what my adversary is saying...
  And I say, “Oh, that I had wings like a dove! I would fly away and be at rest..."
  Confuse them, O Lord, divide their tongues; for I see violence and strife in the city.

So anyway, back to Isaiah 6:

• Isaiah 6
  Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

This is along a similar vein as the cherubim atop the Ark who form a covering with their wings:

• Exodus 25
  The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

• Ezekiel 28
  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth ["covereth" as in with its wings, like the cherubim atop the Ark..] and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;

In Isa 6, besides their feet, they cover their "face", whereas in Exodus they are to "face one another". This all ties in with the whole "I've seen the Angel of JHWH face-to-face" motif, which I address in my spastic thoughts in my thread.

Also, regarding this verse:

• Isaiah 6
  Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
  And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

^That word "atoned" = to cover. Word-links and word-play at work here.


Regarding why the seraphim uses their wings to hide themselves, it seems to correlate with how often people talking about the Lord's "wings" as being hidden refuge, as well as rescuing
/ making an escape:

• Psalm 17
  By your mighty power you rescue those who seek refuge from their enemies.
  Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings,

• Psalm 91
  He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.

• Exodus 19
  You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

So wings are presented as some kind of additional layer to the original garment of skins, in that they function as a protective layer that hides what's underneath.

Beast skins ---> Land animal
Wings ---> Sky animal

Seraphim likewise are associated with the Holy Ghost. Seraphim are not only winged, but they also burn. Just as the Holy Ghost has wings (2 Ne 4:25 -- also, the Dove..) and functions as the Spirit of Burning.


Good videos about cherubim and seraphim:

Spoiler

(shows how the "serpent" of Genesis 3 = one of the seraphim in rebellion; seraphim part begins at 2:40)

[abijah`]

The seraphim are also supposed to be hot so the wings may represent some kind of fan.

Hmm

Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[mes5464]

The wings symbolize power, movement, agency, and authority. The only reason I can think they come in pairs is because that's how they come in nature.

[EvanLM]

seraphs are translated beings that live the law of the terrestial kingdom and can be in Jesus' presence. they can be lifted up (fly) on their own will to be with Christ in the higher kingdom, then come to earth and minister. Think of temple "We will go down." Servants are represented by prophets (using the names peter, james and John) and represented by translated beings (we will go down) and Christ represents himself as servant in the preexistent part as well as the other kingdoms that are represented in the Temple. Oh yeah and remember, John is translated.

Anyway all servants for God. The Temple is such a condensed lesson---full of parables and symbols. . .great place to learn

[abijah`]

I suspect that on some level, the "heavens" includes the informational plane, i.e. a persons "thoughts".

In Noah's day, it was the water that rained down from the heavens that caused the Flood. And sure enough, you get this associated theme of "thoughts"...

• Genesis 6
  The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...
  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

You get these theme of the peoples' "thoughts". This would seem to tie in with how Jesus characterised their watery demise:

• Matthew 24
  For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
  and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I'm pretty sure ^that phrase "and they were unaware" as the ESV renders it, refers to one's cognitive process, one's thoughts. Other versions translate it as "and [they] knew not..." (KJV), or "and they were oblivious..", or "and they understood not..", or "and they did not perceive...", etc.

I suspect wings might signify mobility and power to act within the information plane, the sphere/dimension which is home to pure intelligence.

The ability to fly through plane of thoughts. Whatever that means, or entails, telepathy, mind-reading? Probably way beyond that tbh

• Doctrine&Covenants 124
  And he shall be led in paths where the poisonous serpent cannot lay hold upon his heel, and he shall mount up in the imagination of his thoughts as upon eagles’ wings.

Regarding this idea of Wings being associated with the ability to move/act within the heavenly informational plane -- the realm of Meaning, Identity, and Pattern -- we see a similar type of thing with Odin's two ravens.


Their names are Huginn and Muninn, which respectively mean "Thought" and "Memory".


Thus we see more links between winged creatures, and thoughts.

Here in the poem edda we have Odin speaking about these two birds:

Hugin and Munin fly each day
over the spacious earth.
I fear for Hugin, that he come not back,
yet more anxious am I for Munin.

Odin's worried about the raven(s) not coming back to him.

Sounds familiar...

• Genesis 8
  At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made
  and released a raven. The bird flew back and forth until the floodwaters on the earth had dried up.
  Then he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground...
  And the dove came back to him in the evening, and behold, in her mouth was a freshly plucked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth.

Lol so Noah releases both a raven and a dove. And unlike the dove, the raven doesn't return back to him. Just as Odin fears. Interesting how he says he's more anxious about the Memory`raven than the Thought`raven..

Didn't Odin give up his eye for knowledge..?

• Zechariah 11
  Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!

And the Memory aspect also has a connection -

• Gen 8
  And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days.
  But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the livestock that were with him in the ark..

There's this curious theme of memory throughout the scriptures. Doubtless it fits in the larger context including the pre-mortal life, as well as the post-mortal life, in the New Creation.

I think this theme of the Lord "remembering" people has to do with Him alone being able to recall the premortality, the things outside of Time. Interesting how post-flood, its always barren women who God keeps "remembering"...

• Isa 65
  For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

• Isaiah 23
  “Take up your harp, stroll through the city, O forgotten harlot. Make sweet melody, sing many a song, so you will be remembered.”

• Gen 21
  The LORD remembered Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did to Sarah as he had promised.

• Genesis 30
  Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb.

• 1 Samuel 1
  And Elkanah knew Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her.

• Exodus 3:14
  God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”
  God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Also the "weeping, wailing of gnashing of teeth" of Outer Darkness apparently is actually a state of cosmic-scale Insanity. Makes sense if it entailed the loss of both Thought and Memory.

Fr. Stephen: So the images we see of weeping and gnashing of teeth; weeping and gnashing of teeth isn’t an image of being tortured; it’s an image of madness.

Fr. Andrew: Yeah, insanity.

Fr. Stephen: Lack of order, complete lack of order and chaos and destruction. But so, to cease to exist, to cease to be human didn’t mean void to ancient people. We can come up with the concept of annihilationism now, but it didn’t mean that to ancient people. To them it meant this descent into sort of animalistic… And that behavior is what you see with demoniacs, like in the gospels, that they’re living in this sub-human way: they’re naked, they’re running in the tombs, unable to be chained. It’s that they’ve become less than human now. So when Christ then performs an exorcism, we see they’re sitting peacefully and in their right mind and clothed. That order has been restored; they’ve been made human again in that internal order.

Perhaps that's the final sting for Satan after he loses, that no one will even remember him at all, in the New-created World. Utterly forgotten for eternity.

[EvanLM]

wow. That vikings drama is what made me quit watching TV. It was on the History Channel years ago. It had beautiful settings, costumes, great direction and I so enjoyed it. I tolerated the extramarital sex and all but when the queen started offering sacrifice, then I suddenly was appalled at the message. She cut the throat of a goat, I think, then smeared blood on faces of the men who were going to plunder, etc. I got so sick, dark kind of sick, that I have not watched TV since and especially not that show.

[EvanLM]

I think we will remember satan and the reality of evil and the consequences of evil in the mortal world

[abijah`]

Apologies for my rant-spamming, but I found this tradition -- while certainly dubious and highly suspect, in terms of its truthfulness/credentials -- to be particularly fascinating. Where Wings are concerned...

Thus, when Shamhazai noticed a certain maiden whose name was Istahar, he gazed lustfully upon her and pleaded, "Do my bidding." She replied, "I will not do your bidding until you give me your wings and teach me the Explicit Name, which you go up to heaven upon uttering." So he gave her his wings and taught her the Name, whereupon she uttered it, went up to heaven, and was spared from corruption. The Holy One said: Since she shunned transgression, go and set her among the seven stars yonder. Thus, it came about that Istahar was set in the constellation of Draco.

So, to provide some context: the backdrop for the ^above quoted is this -

• Gen 6
  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

Who are these characters involved, Shemhazai and Istahar?

• 1 Enoch 6
  2 And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men
  3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not
  4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations
  5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves
  6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn
  7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.

So, Samyaza seems to more or less have been the ringleader of the watchers, and the one who came up with the plan to bind themselves with oaths in a secret combination.

And Ishtar?

Inanna is an ancient Mesopotamian goddess associated with love, beauty, sex, war, justice and political power. She was originally worshiped in Sumer under the name "Inanna", and was later worshipped by the Akkadians, Babylonians, and Assyrians under the name Ishtar. She was known as the "Queen of Heaven" and was the patron goddess of the Eanna temple at the city of Uruk, which was her main cult center. She was associated with the planet Venus and her most prominent symbols included the lion and the eight-pointed star. Her husband was the god Dumuzid (later known as Tammuz)

• Jer 44
  But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we did, both we and our fathers...

She's a top contender for who the Whore of Babylon is (which means Samyaza could be the antichrist)( Or, perhaps even Lady`Zion, I reckon its not an impossibility pending further understanding. She's who "Easter" is named after.

• Ezekiel 8
  He put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head, and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the gateway of the inner court that faces north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy...
  Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

So back to that quote from before:

Thus, when Shamhazai noticed a certain maiden whose name was Istahar, he gazed lustfully upon her and pleaded, "Do my bidding." She replied, "I will not do your bidding until you give me your wings and teach me the Explicit Name, which you go up to heaven upon uttering." So he gave her his wings and taught her the Name, whereupon she uttered it, went up to heaven, and was spared from corruption. The Holy One said: Since she shunned transgression, go and set her among the seven stars yonder. Thus, it came about that Istahar was set in the constellation of Draco.

According to this, when the watchers got their wives, apparently Shemjaza's choice was the mortal woman Istahar. Apparently he told her his sacred Temple-name that husbands are not to tell their wives, and this is portrayed as being on parallel with him giving her his wings. Very interesting.

Shemyaza's name meaning is either
a) "he sees the name", or
b) "infamous rebellion", the combination of "shem", meaning 'name' or 'fame'

Both seem to fit just fine seems to me.

So apparently Wings are associated with one's Covenant Name.

• Gen 6
  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (literally, "men of the Name"..)

• Gen 11
  Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”

I can see that it all aligns... I just don't know what it all means yet, Wings being associated with one's Name..

Spoiler

And yes, "Nimrod" means "rebel". I also suspect it's no accident that its etymologically related to the name "Marduk"; both the founder of Babylon, as well as the chief god of their pantheon.

Tim: Noah is pre-Babylon. Noah goes down from the mountain and his son Ham who does something sketchy with him, with his dad. Ham has a grandson named "rebel" in Hebrew - Nimrod. And Nimrod builds Babylon. And Nimrod is called a gibor, which is the same thing that the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men are called in Genesis 6. You're like, "Oh, no, he's another one of those."

Jon: Gibor, which is different than the word for Nephilim.

Tim: It means violent warrior...

Jon: What was that thing about Nimrod?

Tim: He's the first animal slayer. He's the grandson of Ham.

Jon: Who's the son of Noah.

Tim: Ham is son of Noah. Ham does that sketchy thing with his dad, he gets a curse brought down on him, and Ham becomes the grandfather of Nimrod, who's the first animal slayer in terms of a hunter.

Jon: He's a hunter.

Tim: And he's a violent warrior. He's a gibbor in Hebrew. Then he goes and builds Babylon, and then his son goes out and found Assyria. So the two biggest bad guys in the entire Bible come from Nimrod who comes from Ham, who's connected with this trajectory of humans in Genesis 1 through 11 of people who are duped by the animal and therefore start to act like animals.

Jon: Duped by the animal in the idea of the snake? Tim: Yeah.

They bring up the important part that Nimrod is a nephilim. The text implies this rather clearly:

Genesis 6
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days... These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Genesis 10
Cush fathered Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man.
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD. Therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD.”

The last bit ^of the Gen 10 section is saying that Nimrod was famous, that people talked about him often and would often say his name. Just like the nephilim were famous, "men of renown", or as it literally means in hebrew "men of the name" (ha`shem), likely related to the "name" that the Babel builders were seeking to obtain.

He was also a "mighty man", a "gibborim", which is significant not only in that its a callback to the antediluvian giants,!but its also how David (and his band) gets described, as well as the messianic figure of Isaiah 9, "El`Gibbor". There are loads of connections between David and the nephilim. Just a couple include him being a "gibbor", "mighty", as well as this whole having a "great name" idea, and of being renowned across the world:

2 Samuel 7
Now, therefore, thus you shall say to my servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel.
And I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth.

The LORD is expressly saying "y'know those nephilim who were mighty and famous? i'm gonna make you like that"

[abijah`]

I think we will remember satan and the reality of evil and the consequences of evil in the mortal world

Yeah maybe. I'm not at all sure how it will all work out.

• Isa 54
  you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

• Rev 21
  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...
  He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

[Niemand]

wow. That vikings drama is what made me quit watching TV. It was on the History Channel years ago. It had beautiful settings, costumes, great direction and I so enjoyed it. I tolerated the extramarital sex and all but when the queen started offering sacrifice, then I suddenly was appalled at the message. She cut the throat of a goat, I think, then smeared blood on faces of the men who were going to plunder, etc. I got so sick, dark kind of sick, that I have not watched TV since and especially not that show.

I made it through all of half an hour of the first episode. I just found it over the top.

[abijah`]

I made it through all of half an hour of the first episode. I just found it over the top.

Pilot episodes can be that way, but consider giving it another try. There is a curious abundance of underlying themes that are reminiscent of biblical ones for those with eyes to see and compare, and it tends to articulate them in a compelling way:

Spoiler

Vikings is a really good show for the first 3 seasons. I didn't like or see any point to the first half season 4 and have stopped watching since then.

And since we're on the subject of thematic symbolism and literary narrative - the show Vikings is itself, subversive. Its trying to tell a story from a pro-pagan stance, which in contrast with our Christian worldview, is taking the marginal and disproportionately bringing it the centre. There is a trope of the called-and-chosen foreigner: like with Hiram of Tyre, or Cyrus. But these are peripheral in the hierarchy, not central.

There's even a scene that totally speaks to the whole pagan-pantheon/watchers thing, and the connection between the fallen pagan gods to giants, as well as technological, artistic and cultural advancement which was in the scriptural Gen`ch.4 narrative, the heritage of Cain's line:

Although, to be fair, there were also some narratives that were played out that are uniquely Judeo-Christian and overlap with scriptural themes.

Such as the mythical imagery/symbolism associated with the main character Ragnar, who, I find it interesting comes from the north and the east, wears a mantle of animal skins, defeats some kind of serpent-dragon, and dies in a pit of venemous snakes, although I do realise its possible I am just drawing up illusory correlations.

In fact, the whole narrative arc of Ragnar`Lodbrok in season 1 is uniquely davidic.

A simple farmer/livestock-raiser ("from a little sheepcote") becomes eventually becomes king:
1) with the help of "the gods", chiefly Odin, whom Ragnar was rumoured to descend from... and,
2) as a result of other peoples' actions, namely the tyrannical ruler who oppresses him.

In many ways season 1 of History Channel's "Vikings" is practically a mirror image of the David story :

A) God empowers David, David accomplishes great and unprecedented military feats.
B) Odin and the gods empower Ragnar and he accomplishes great and unprecedented military feats

A) Saul gets jealous - tries to hunt and assassinate David
B) Tyrannical Earl (forget his name) gets jealous - tries to hunt and assassinate Ragnar

A) After the regime change, now-enthroned David seeks to go above and beyond in showing generosity and good favour to Saul's remaining family, ensuring no Sword`of`Damacles hanging over his throne to justify any type of treasonous overthrow
B) After the regime change, now-enthroned Ragnar seeks to go above and beyond in showing generosity and hood favour to the fallen-tyrant's legacy and remaining family, ensuring no Sword`of`Damocles hanging over his throne to justify any type of treasonous overthrow

A) After successfully assuming the throne, David falls victim to lust and commits adultery with Bathsheba, compromising the integrity of the Davidic rule and of his family household dynamic
B) After successfully assuming the throne, Ragnar falls victim to lust and commits adultery with Aslaug the princess, compromising the integrity of his rule and of his family household dynamic.

So, many stark parallels to be drawn for sure.

Also, the way the show masterfully does the whole Blood`Eagle narrative arc in season 2, so perfectly captures just exactly how -- both King Saul, and in a broader context Satan -- sow the seeds of their own folly through the mis-interpreting of prophecy, and having things flipped on them in the most ironic fashion:

Spoiler

i reckon moses personifies the "fool" archetype

jude
But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

maybe satan slips the dagger in the back, only later to realise he got the wrong man, merely stabbed a decoy, and it isnt by the law we are saved nor was it ever intended to be

"looking for someone else?"


Satan/King`Saul: "i'd like to know what will happen to me?"

Völva of Endor: "i see an eagle. i see that an eagle hovers over you. but i also see that you yourself are the eagle."

Prophecy is a double-edged thing. It can be easy to think you are one type of eagle... only to turn out being the other.

Apart from the show, my interest has been mostly piqued by the mythology, and the mythic narrative that gets spun from the certain semi-historical events/figures that the show's loosely based on, particularly the sagas of the character Ragnar Łodbrok and his sons.

Maybe its mere coincidence or subjective pareidolia, but there seems to be an overlapping of many themes and leitmotifs, particularly with those associated with David & Elijah... as well as w/ Satan..

One of the most popular Norse heroes among the Vikings and a larger than life character, Ragnar Lodbrok was a legendary Viking commander who became a scourge of England and France.

He received the surname Lodbrok, on account of the strange coat he wore, he was also known as 'Hairy Breeches' which name he was given because of the trousers he wore made from animal skin which his wife had made him. Ragnar claimed descent from the great Odin, God of War himself..

• 2 Kings 1
  They answered him, “He wore a garment of hair, with a belt of leather about his waist.” And he said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”

• Genesis 3
  And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

• 2 Kings 11
  He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan

RAGNAR name means: Scandinavian form of German Reginar, RAGNAR means "wise warrior", or "warrior of counsel"

• 1 Samuel 16
  One of the young men answered, “Behold, I have seen David the son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, very wise in speech, and very handsome, and the LORD is with him.”

• Isaiah 46
  I summon a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

His first exploit is assisting the jarl of Götaland ["Göta"land, "Göt-" = "Jut-" = "Jud-"], Herruð, with his dragon-problem – a snake grown out of proportion within their town. With a new outfit of shaggy trousers and cloak boiled in pitch, he spears the dragon to death while his clothes protect him from the fiend's blood...

• Isaiah 51
  Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

• Genesis 6
  Make yourself an ark of gopher wood. Make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch.

• Exodus 2
  When she could hide him no longer, she took for him an ark made of bulrushes and daubed it with tar and pitch. She put the child Moses in it and placed it among the reeds by the river bank.

...his clothes protect him from the fiend's blood receiving the jarl's daughter Thora's hand in marriage as a reward. Their marriage is a happy one and results in two sons.

• 1 Samuel 18
  Now Saul’s daughter Michal loved David...
  David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife. But when Saul saw and knew that the LORD was with David, and that his daughter Michal loved him...

Meanwhile, Ragnar, who is the son of King Sigurd Ring of Denmark, grows up to be handsome and martially adept...

• 1 Samuel 16
  One of the young men answered, “Behold, I have seen David the son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and very handsome, and the LORD is with him.”

Ragnar is a farmer who believes there is land west of Scandinavia. He is credited with the first raids on England.

• Isaiah 41
  Who stirred up one from the east whom victory meets at every step?
  ...I stirred up one from the north, and he has come, from the rising of the sun, and he shall call upon my name.

• Isaiah 46
  I will call a swift bird of prey from the east— a leader from a distant land to come and do my bidding.

The raven banner was used by a number of Viking warlords regarded in Norse tradition as the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok.

• Genesis 8
  and Noah sent forth a raven. It went to and fro until the waters were dried up from the earth.

• 1 Kings 17
  And the ravens brought Elijah bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.

he was captured by Ælle, King of Northumbria, who ordered him executed by throwing him into a pit filled with poisonous snakes.

• Numbers 21
  Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

• Numbers 16
  And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.

The legend of the Krákumál, which was probably written in Iceland during the twelfth century, reports that Ragnar sang his death song, exhibiting pride that he would soon enter Valhalla, and expressed confidence that bloody revenge and punishment would be wrought by his sons

• 1 Kings 18
  Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.

• Malachi 4
  And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers..

• 2 Kings 11
  And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
  And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”

• Isaiah 66 ("Day of the LORD's Vengeance")
  See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his swift chariots roar like a whirlwind. He will bring punishment with the fury of his anger and the flaming fire of his hot rebuke.

[MikeMaillet]

I suspect that on some level, the "heavens" includes the informational plane, i.e. a persons "thoughts".

In Noah's day, it was the water that rained down from the heavens that caused the Flood. And sure enough, you get this associated theme of "thoughts"...

• Genesis 6
  The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...
  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

You get these theme of the peoples' "thoughts". This would seem to tie in with how Jesus characterised their watery demise:

• Matthew 24
  For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
  and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I'm pretty sure ^that phrase "and they were unaware" as the ESV renders it, refers to one's cognitive process, one's thoughts. Other versions translate it as "and [they] knew not..." (KJV), or "and they were oblivious..", or "and they understood not..", or "and they did not perceive...", etc.

I suspect wings might signify mobility and power to act within the information plane, the sphere/dimension which is home to pure intelligence.

The ability to fly through plane of thoughts. Whatever that means, or entails, telepathy, mind-reading? Probably way beyond that tbh

• Doctrine&Covenants 124
  And he shall be led in paths where the poisonous serpent cannot lay hold upon his heel, and he shall mount up in the imagination of his thoughts as upon eagles’ wings.

Regarding this idea of Wings being associated with the ability to move/act within the heavenly informational plane -- the realm of Meaning, Identity, and Pattern -- we see a similar type of thing with Odin's two ravens.


Their names are Huginn and Muninn, which respectively mean "Thought" and "Memory".


Thus we see more links between winged creatures, and thoughts.

Here in the poem edda we have Odin speaking about these two birds:

Hugin and Munin fly each day
over the spacious earth.
I fear for Hugin, that he come not back,
yet more anxious am I for Munin.

Odin's worried about the raven(s) not coming back to him.

Sounds familiar...

• Genesis 8
  At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made
  and released a raven. The bird flew back and forth until the floodwaters on the earth had dried up.
  Then he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground...
  And the dove came back to him in the evening, and behold, in her mouth was a freshly plucked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth.

Lol so Noah releases both a raven and a dove. And unlike the dove, the raven doesn't return back to him. Just as Odin fears. Interesting how he says he's more anxious about the Memory`raven than the Thought`raven..

Didn't Odin give up his eye for knowledge..?

• Zechariah 11
  Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!

And the Memory aspect also has a connection -

• Gen 8
  And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days.
  But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the livestock that were with him in the ark..

There's this curious theme of memory throughout the scriptures. Doubtless it fits in the larger context including the pre-mortal life, as well as the post-mortal life, in the New Creation.

I think this theme of the Lord "remembering" people has to do with Him alone being able to recall the premortality, the things outside of Time. Interesting how post-flood, its always barren women who God keeps "remembering"...

• Isa 65
  For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

• Isaiah 23
  “Take up your harp, stroll through the city, O forgotten harlot. Make sweet melody, sing many a song, so you will be remembered.”

• Gen 21
  The LORD remembered Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did to Sarah as he had promised.

• Genesis 30
  Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb.

• 1 Samuel 1
  And Elkanah knew Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her.

• Exodus 3:14
  God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”
  God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Also the "weeping, wailing of gnashing of teeth" of Outer Darkness apparently is actually a state of cosmic-scale Insanity. Makes sense if it entailed the loss of both Thought and Memory.

Fr. Stephen: So the images we see of weeping and gnashing of teeth; weeping and gnashing of teeth isn’t an image of being tortured; it’s an image of madness.

Fr. Andrew: Yeah, insanity.

Fr. Stephen: Lack of order, complete lack of order and chaos and destruction. But so, to cease to exist, to cease to be human didn’t mean void to ancient people. We can come up with the concept of annihilationism now, but it didn’t mean that to ancient people. To them it meant this descent into sort of animalistic… And that behavior is what you see with demoniacs, like in the gospels, that they’re living in this sub-human way: they’re naked, they’re running in the tombs, unable to be chained. It’s that they’ve become less than human now. So when Christ then performs an exorcism, we see they’re sitting peacefully and in their right mind and clothed. That order has been restored; they’ve been made human again in that internal order.

Perhaps that's the final sting for Satan after he loses, that no one will even remember him at all, in the New-created World. Utterly forgotten for eternity.

Man, I wish I was smarter and had more time. Thank you so much for the thoughtful replies to my question about wings. I will have much to ponder and study in the next several weeks. Until a few years ago I had no idea of the depth and scope of the scriptures. The use of word-links (or, hyper-links - thanks for that one!), types ... all combine to create a message that I did not know was there. I've fallen in love with the Book of Enoch and the Ascension of Isaiah; so much temple imagery!

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario