Tithe the Poor

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Reluctant Watchman
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Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I recently published an essay that explores the nature of tithing within LDS culture. Due to the length of the article, I'll simply include a link below and the first few paragraphs. Any thoughts or feedback would be appreciated.

"Tithe the Poor"

"I’m not sure exactly how long ago this happened, but I remember finding myself reading D&C 119 in an attempt to understand the Law of Tithing better. During that process, there was one word that struck me and I continued to ponder upon it for some time. The word was “interest.” Now, I had always been told that tithing was on your “income”, not your interest. For all I knew these two words were synonymous, but just the fact that they were different lead me on a journey of understanding and enlightenment, as well as great sorrow and heartache. Here is D&C 119 for context:

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

I was unaware that tithing, as outlined by the church, had changed many times since its inception. This was actually a bit shocking to me. In the modern church, it seemed so simple: 10%. How hard is that? The only thing most members would squabble over is whether you paid on “net” vs “gross” income. And my family had always been in a position to pay tithing without too much hardship.

Where things really hit home for me is when I began to see parallel witnesses of Nephi and Moroni condemning future generations in the last days for the inappropriate use of money..."

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Re: Tithe the Poor

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I'm a bit astounded as to how church leaders have viewed tithing over time. Here's a quote from Orson Hyde:

“The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church, and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after. If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” (Millennial Star 9:12, 1 January 1847)

Here is another from Franklin D. Richards:

“Before going further I want to stop and consider the question asked by some, what He means where the Lord requires the surplus property of His people as the beginning of their tithing. Let us consider for a moment this word ‘surplus.’ What does it mean when applied to a man and his property? Surplus cannot mean that which is indispensably necessary for any given purpose, but what remains after supplying what is needed for that purpose. Is not the first and most necessary use of a man’s property that he feed, clothe and provide a home for himself and family? This appears to be the great leading objects for which we labor to acquire means, and as, until the time that this revelation was given, all public works and raising of all public funds had been by consecration, was not ‘surplus property,’ that which was over and above a comfortable and necessary subsistence? In the light of what had transpired and of subsequent events, what else could it mean? Can we take any other view of it when we consider the circumstances under which it was given in Far West in July, 1838? I have been unable in studying this subject to find any other definition of the term surplus, as used in this revelation, than the one I have just given. I find that it was so understood and recorded by the Bishops and people in those days, as well as by the Prophet Joseph himself, who was unquestionably the ablest and best exponent of this revelation.” (JD 23:313, 6 November 1882)

Now compare this to the recent church stance on tithing:

Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005: "Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”

This condemnation seems quite applicable: "Mormon 8:38 — O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?"

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

For me, this is one of those "draw a line in the sand" doctrines that clearly shows the church is in apostasy.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by MikeMaillet »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 10th, 2021, 6:07 am I'm a bit astounded as to how church leaders have viewed tithing over time. Here's a quote from Orson Hyde:

“The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church, and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after. If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” (Millennial Star 9:12, 1 January 1847)

Here is another from Franklin D. Richards:

“Before going further I want to stop and consider the question asked by some, what He means where the Lord requires the surplus property of His people as the beginning of their tithing. Let us consider for a moment this word ‘surplus.’ What does it mean when applied to a man and his property? Surplus cannot mean that which is indispensably necessary for any given purpose, but what remains after supplying what is needed for that purpose. Is not the first and most necessary use of a man’s property that he feed, clothe and provide a home for himself and family? This appears to be the great leading objects for which we labor to acquire means, and as, until the time that this revelation was given, all public works and raising of all public funds had been by consecration, was not ‘surplus property,’ that which was over and above a comfortable and necessary subsistence? In the light of what had transpired and of subsequent events, what else could it mean? Can we take any other view of it when we consider the circumstances under which it was given in Far West in July, 1838? I have been unable in studying this subject to find any other definition of the term surplus, as used in this revelation, than the one I have just given. I find that it was so understood and recorded by the Bishops and people in those days, as well as by the Prophet Joseph himself, who was unquestionably the ablest and best exponent of this revelation.” (JD 23:313, 6 November 1882)

Now compare this to the recent church stance on tithing:

Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005: "Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”

This condemnation seems quite applicable: "Mormon 8:38 — O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?"
Thanks so much for sharing these quotes. This is exactly how I understand tithing. If the Saints had abided by the Covenant, the United Order (or Book of Mormon) then the poor would have been provided for. Do you think that this is what Orson Hyde meant when he said, "comes into the church"?

Mike Maillet
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Re: Tithe the Poor

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MikeMaillet wrote: November 10th, 2021, 6:40 am Thanks so much for sharing these quotes. This is exactly how I understand tithing. If the Saints had abided by the Covenant, the United Order (or Book of Mormon) then the poor would have been provided for. Do you think that this is what Orson Hyde meant when he said, "comes into the church"?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
I actually think Orson was getting close with this quote. I feel the Celestial order is not just 10%, but a complete offering, even a sacrifice of all things. When we give our all... then yes, He will be among the righteous in Zion.

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About Malachi 3

Post by Englebert »

You claim the Malachi 3 scripture about robbing God is, upon careful study, directed only to the priests. I've heard this before, but when I try carefully reading it, I don't come to the same conclusion. Here's the most relevant portion:
¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
What I'm seeing in there looks to me like he's talking to an entire nation. Phrases such as: "even this whole nation", "all nations shall call you blessed", "delightsome land". I get that he starts off talking to the priests in chapter 2, but I'm not sure you can just assume he's still only talking to the priests from then on.

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Re: About Malachi 3

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Englebert wrote: November 10th, 2021, 8:45 am You claim the Malachi 3 scripture about robbing God is, upon careful study, directed only to the priests. I've heard this before, but when I try carefully reading it, I don't come to the same conclusion. Here's the most relevant portion:
¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
What I'm seeing in there looks to me like he's talking to an entire nation. Phrases such as: "even this whole nation", "all nations shall call you blessed", "delightsome land". I get that he starts off talking to the priests in chapter 2, but I'm not sure you can just assume he's still only talking to the priests from then on.
I agree that there is culpability upon anyone who chooses not to care for the poor. The word "even" (signifying "as well as" or "including") in verse 9, gives precedence to the priests and also condemnation to the whole nation.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

That is a good point, though, I may add to that section to include the condemnation of any people who choose to be derelict in their responsibility of caring for the poor.

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JK4Woods
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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by JK4Woods »

I’d suggest checking the 1828 edition of Webster’s Dictionary. It’s online and free.

Type in Interest and see what that word meant back then.

Also, type in Tithing and income.

Then study it out and come to terms with the language meanings of the Restoration and that used today.

Settle it in your own heart, be free with your substance and time, and you will be blessed.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Durzan »

So uh, one thing to note that might be prevalent (at least in the US), is the fact that stocks and assets can be held in a charitable trust and/or directly donated to charities. This has some tax benefits to it, I think. So I think there is more to this than meets the eye, and its probably not a cut and dried issue.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:43 am So uh, one thing to note that might be prevalent (at least in the US), is the fact that stocks and assets can be held in a charitable trust and/or directly donated to charities. This has some tax benefits to it, I think. So I think there is more to this than meets the eye, and its probably not a cut and dried issue.
What is cut and dried is the requirement of money, particularly from the poor, for salvation and heavenly blessings.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

JK4Woods wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:31 am I’d suggest checking the 1828 edition of Webster’s Dictionary. It’s online and free.

Type in Interest and see what that word meant back then.

Also, type in Tithing and income.

Then study it out and come to terms with the language meanings of the Restoration and that used today.

Settle it in your own heart, be free with your substance and time, and you will be blessed.
I'm taking the church's definition specifically for how it is being taught today. I understand the intent of several of the other words (income, interest, tithe, etc.) In reality, we should all be willing to sacrifice our ALL once our basic means of living are met. The church should be teaching the simple doctrine as outlined by Mosiah 18, that would be refreshing to hear from the pulpits of the church.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Durzan »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:52 am
Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:43 am So uh, one thing to note that might be prevalent (at least in the US), is the fact that stocks and assets can be held in a charitable trust and/or directly donated to charities. This has some tax benefits to it, I think. So I think there is more to this than meets the eye, and its probably not a cut and dried issue.
What is cut and dried is the requirement of money, particularly from the poor, for salvation and heavenly blessings.
I do agree with that. However, the church has effectively taken the talents that the members have given it, gave it to the exchangers, and exponentially increased said talents. Thus, now there is arguably a sufficient surplus of property to give out and suffice the immediate needs of all members, should the United Order be reenacted in some way, and there would still be plenty still in the storehouse and within the exchanges...

I think our perspective needs to shift somewhat. Yes, the church has overburdened the poor, and that fact needs to be acknowledged and accounted for. But at the same time, its holdings and investments have the potential to become an exponentially increasing blessing to the church and membership. The Lord will see that the poor will be blessed for their trials and sacrifices, one way or another. Either through the church, or through his Own hand, or both...

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 10:03 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:52 am
Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:43 am So uh, one thing to note that might be prevalent (at least in the US), is the fact that stocks and assets can be held in a charitable trust and/or directly donated to charities. This has some tax benefits to it, I think. So I think there is more to this than meets the eye, and its probably not a cut and dried issue.
What is cut and dried is the requirement of money, particularly from the poor, for salvation and heavenly blessings.
I do agree with that. However, the church has effectively taken the talents that the members have given it, gave it to the exchangers, and exponentially increased said talents. Thus, now there is arguably a sufficient surplus of property to give out and suffice the immediate needs of all members, should the United Order be reenacted in some way, and there would still be plenty still in the storehouse and within the exchanges...

I think our perspective needs to shift somewhat. Yes, the church has overburdened the poor, and that fact needs to be acknowledged and accounted for. But at the same time, its holdings and investments have the potential to become an exponentially increasing blessing to the church and membership. The Lord will see that the poor will be blessed for their trials and sacrifices, one way or another. Either through the church, or through his Own hand, or both...
The building of Zion was never meant to be done on the backs of the poor. The church justifies it all day long. Do you think the Lord is happy the church invested nearly $1,000,000,000 ($1B) in pharmaceuticals?

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Durzan »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 10th, 2021, 10:12 am
Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 10:03 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:52 am
Durzan wrote: November 10th, 2021, 9:43 am So uh, one thing to note that might be prevalent (at least in the US), is the fact that stocks and assets can be held in a charitable trust and/or directly donated to charities. This has some tax benefits to it, I think. So I think there is more to this than meets the eye, and its probably not a cut and dried issue.
What is cut and dried is the requirement of money, particularly from the poor, for salvation and heavenly blessings.
I do agree with that. However, the church has effectively taken the talents that the members have given it, gave it to the exchangers, and exponentially increased said talents. Thus, now there is arguably a sufficient surplus of property to give out and suffice the immediate needs of all members, should the United Order be reenacted in some way, and there would still be plenty still in the storehouse and within the exchanges...

I think our perspective needs to shift somewhat. Yes, the church has overburdened the poor, and that fact needs to be acknowledged and accounted for. But at the same time, its holdings and investments have the potential to become an exponentially increasing blessing to the church and membership. The Lord will see that the poor will be blessed for their trials and sacrifices, one way or another. Either through the church, or through his Own hand, or both...
The building of Zion was never meant to be done on the backs of the poor. The church justifies it all day long. Do you think the Lord is happy the church invested nearly $1,000,000,000 ($1B) in pharmaceuticals?
And yet, of all the early saints who lived in Kirtland, Nauvoo, the Salt Lake Valley, and so forth.. MOST of them were poor. Hell, Joseph Smith was poor as heck! The temples were built on their labor, diligence, and love for God. And guess what? They were blessed for their sacrifices! I dunno about you, but that literally sounds more like Zion being built on their backs than the modern financial situations of members of the church. Except it was more of a positive thing back then than it is nowadays.

Does that justify the grinding of the poor beneath the heels of the leadership? OF COURSE NOT! The people who have done that and continue to do that, regardless of where they might be, verily verily they will have their just reward.

I doubt that God is happy whenever anyone does anything like unto it, be it lightly or heavily. But that doesn't mean He won't take the Talents collected from them and make 10000 more Talents to bless them with for their sacrifice. For they made those offerings in faithfulness, and in due time it will be accounted unto them as good and used in their favor. That very same money has been multiplied and put to good use, and will not be wasted by the hand of God. There is plenty of meet in his storehouse, suffecient to succor the members of the church when the time is right.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

What the church is doing has little to no relationship to the parable of the talents.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Serragon »

The poor should be tithed, if they have a surplus at the end of the year. Most won't, but a few might. D&C119 tells you what tithing is used for, and it isn't to support the poor. Our offerings are meant to support the poor and needy, and this is where our real measure of sacrifice is taken. The church has merged the commandment of tithing with the expectation of offerings, so we now teach that tithing was instituted as a test of obedience and sacrifice. But this is incorrect.

Tithes are a commandment and clearly defined. All with a surplus should pay 10% of that surplus annually. They are not meant to be a burden at all and are to be used for church operations.

Offerings are not defined. What you pay is entirely up to you and are a true test of your sacrifice and your heart. They are to be used for the poor and needy.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Serragon wrote: November 10th, 2021, 11:12 am The poor should be tithed, if they have a surplus at the end of the year. Most won't, but a few might. D&C119 tells you what tithing is used for, and it isn't to support the poor. Our offerings are meant to support the poor and needy, and this is where our real measure of sacrifice is taken. The church has merged the commandment of tithing with the expectation of offerings, so we now teach that tithing was instituted as a test of obedience and sacrifice. But this is incorrect.

Tithes are a commandment and clearly defined. All with a surplus should pay 10% of that surplus annually. They are not meant to be a burden at all and are to be used for church operations.

Offerings are not defined. What you pay is entirely up to you and are a true test of your sacrifice and your heart. They are to be used for the poor and needy.
I'm talking about poor people, like below the poverty level. Like they don't have food and can't pay rent. Destitute people. People going into debt to pay for basic necessities to sustain life.

According to the church, your "offering" as a tithe is defined. Read the essay and you'll see. It is clearly outlined as your "full earned income."

I'll admit, though, they are nebulous enough in their definition that they try to get you to pay anything you can. The gold standard is a tithe on your full earned income, gross, not net. Because, of course, we want gross blessings, am I right...? ;)

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by JD21 »

Good timing on this topic. I've been wanting more insight. There is a short, 90 page book on the topic from the New Testament perspective, which was recommended to me. The book is Tithing, Giving and the New Testament: Bringing Centuries Long Practices and Tradition to the Light of Scripture by Anastasios Kioulachoglou. It is available on kindle unlimited as well as on the internet for free downloads. I just began reading it yesterday afternoon, so I have no opinion on whether I will agree with it, however, it is starting out as a very interesting read.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Durzan »

Another interesting thing is that back in feudal times, Tithing and Taxes were more or less the same thing. In fact, if I recall correctly, Tithing WAS the word used to describe any form of rent or payment to a feudal Lord (or the Catholic Church).

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Fuedal times must have sucked.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Subcomandante »

Tithing is a pretty simple procedure.

It is 10 percent of your income.

You run a business, earn 1 million dollars of revenue off of a cost of goods sold of 700 thousand dollars. You pay let's say 25 percent of taxes between state and federal and local. Subtract any wages you pay any employees you have there. From there you tithe 10 percent.

You work for a business, earning 4,000 dollars a month after taxes. You tithe 400 dollars a month.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Serragon »

Subcomandante wrote: November 10th, 2021, 1:58 pm Tithing is a pretty simple procedure.

It is 10 percent of your income.
Yet this is not what the Lord stated in D&C119. He also stated there that His definition of tithing was a standing law unto us forever.

Please explain how you reconcile this contradiction when there has been no further statement from the Lord replacing or amending this standing law.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Subcomandante wrote: November 10th, 2021, 1:58 pm Tithing is a pretty simple procedure.

It is 10 percent of your income.

You run a business, earn 1 million dollars of revenue off of a cost of goods sold of 700 thousand dollars. You pay let's say 25 percent of taxes between state and federal and local. Subtract any wages you pay any employees you have there. From there you tithe 10 percent.

You work for a business, earning 4,000 dollars a month after taxes. You tithe 400 dollars a month.
It's not that "simple". It's also a corrupt doctrine taught within the church. Read the essay, you'll see where I'm coming from. I outlined a similar example to what you did. Requiring this for a person living below the poverty level keeps them in a perpetual cycle of reliance upon the church, government, or debt.

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Re: Tithe the Poor

Post by mahalanobis »

I am of the opinion that we should side with scripture and the word of the Lord in this matter.

But I find it difficult to engage in debates on this topic because it's a conflict of interest (no pun intended) for all involved. How can one be sure that people aren't railing on the current tithing practices because they want to help their bottom line? They can go on and on about "the poor children" like a politician until they are blue in the face, but at the end of the day nobody can know what the true motivations are. This is true for any topic, but even more so for this one.

My advice is to anyone is to follow the Lord and the Spirit, but make sure your motivations are pure. If you were hit by a bus tomorrow, how would you stand before your maker? (rhetorical)

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