My parents are driving me from the faith I once loved.

[LDS Watchman]

I believe what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say, which is that the church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and won't fail.

The scriptures don't conflate a worldly church with the Kingdom of God, and neither did Joseph Smith. Such a thing is tantamount to worshipping mammon. You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

It's not ME saying that. It's the scriptures and Joseph Smith.

I will make a new thread on this soon, but in the meantime here is just one scripture that shows that the church and kingdom of God in the last days are one and the same:

69 Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given.
D&C 42

Yeah, it's talking about the new Jerusalem in the millennium, which it clearly states in the two verses prior which you did not quote. The church is the church if the firstborn. We're not quite there yet buddy.

The church/kingdom restored in 1830 is the same one that will build the New Jerusalem. There aren't two different churches.

[LDS Watchman]

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Actually that is incorrect, the priesthood was restored to the earth and will never be taken from it again. The priesthood does not need a church, the church needs the priesthood.

No, what I said is completely correct. I will make a new thread soon proving this.

You're going to prove that the priesthood wasn't restored, but the church was? Can't wait for this information.

That's not what I said. I'm going to prove that the Lord's church/kingdom was restored for the last time and will not fail.

[Sirocco]

I think we may be focusing too much on "The Church" and not enough on "The Covenant" that is the Book of Mormon. It's a pity that the Book of Mormon is associated with the church that peddles it. We have in every way violated the covenant and will now endure the consequences.

For me it's not "Let's go Brandon", although I find that one rather amusing. I'm going with:

Let's Go Shopping!

See y'all at the mall,

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Which is interesting because a lot of churches have the Book of Mormon.
I wonder if any of them have gotten more members during all this.

[OPMissionary]

The scriptures don't conflate a worldly church with the Kingdom of God, and neither did Joseph Smith. Such a thing is tantamount to worshipping mammon. You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

It's not ME saying that. It's the scriptures and Joseph Smith.

I will make a new thread on this soon, but in the meantime here is just one scripture that shows that the church and kingdom of God in the last days are one and the same:

69 Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given.
D&C 42

Yeah, it's talking about the new Jerusalem in the millennium, which it clearly states in the two verses prior which you did not quote. The church is the church if the firstborn. We're not quite there yet buddy.

The church/kingdom restored in 1830 is the same one that will build the New Jerusalem. There aren't two different churches.

Of course there are, there is a new rendition of the church in every dispensation. In the millennium it will be the Church of the Firstborn:

DC 76:94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace

Again, we're not there yet.

[creator]

Lets get one thing straight....nobody is driving anyone anywhere they don't want to go.

Okay, let me put it this way, there's something that brought joy and happiness in your life, now you're being lectured that it's all wrong & that you were raised wrong if you continue to believe so. It leaves a sour taste for both roads. If I continue down one path, it's going against the wills of my parents... the other path, goes with my parents, but down a path of confusion of what I've been doing my whole life & just tears apart everything I once knew to be true.

It's not fun either way in my mind, but yet I'm forced to choose.

I try to make it all about truth, even if it's not easy or pleasant, and even if that means I have to discard past traditions and things I grew up believing.

[nightlight]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

The vaccine is not the Mark of the beast, but imo it is a planned step to this end. Vaccine are one thing....but the fact you feel you must get this vaccine so you can work , travel, learn, is a RED FLAG. It a principal that stands against Liberty.

As to the LDS, imo ,the best of LDS can only fall into the category of:

"....they have all gone stray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."

The biblical Church ( Wich I believe Joseph Smith started) can be both wrong and still the biblical Church(see the bible).

Our documents show a change in doctrine from the first years of JS and his death. Whether this is Brigham Young revising, or Joseph changing is mind....it makes no difference to the now.
My forefathers ( the Mormon pioneers) tried to build an old testament church. The New Testament and BoM prove this point. LDS "doctrine" lace the old law with the New Testament, aka New Wine into Old Wineskins

My point.... The past and present church are probably people "who in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."

I would stop thinking about our daddies so much and focus on the meat of our doctrine. The Book of Mormon and New Testament teach us that we can talk to angels face to face, that we can cast out demons, heal the sick, speak to the elements, see the Son, be a Son etc
THIS IS THE MEAT.

I understand we need to confront our false traditions, but this comes more natural when High Humans are manifesting

Let modern Christians live with their head in the sand. And Let modern Mormons continue to play role playing games...

[Thinker]

… I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

To not agree with loved ones about important issues - is painful, as is faith crisis.

I admire how you’re seeking truth. I get the impression that you are not the type to stop seeking. Although tradition is to bear testimony with “I KNOW” - I think it’s better to allow room to not know, so God can teach us. “An egoist will never get anywhere because he think he’s already there.”

To give you a rough idea of a theory in spiritual development…


More details: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/b4/28 ... bc77d7.jpg

You seem to have explored stage 4, but think it must be either stage 3 (religion) or 4 (agnostic) - but stage 5 is taking good from both without discarding either.

Jordan Peterson’s Bible series may interest you. He pretty much presents stage 5.

[Bronco73idi]

Jospeh Smith was sealed to many women, or you can say he &#%!@? many men…..

Why would Sylvia tell Josephine that her father was Joseph Smith on her death bed? DNA proves otherwise but more then one woman has testified that they were sealed to Jospeh Smith.

If you want to believe the RLDS opinion then so be it.

Look at the last general conference, one of them talked about Parley P Pratt. The man who was killed by the guy he &#%!@?.

We have not had a true servant of the lord lead this church since 1887. Jesus told us he would have 3 servants and the last one would not enter his father’s kingdom. Wilford Woodruff testimony of Jesus talking to him in the temple hallway tells us the leadership is on it’s own. When Wilford signed in 1890 he said “my god, what have I done?” And Joseph F. Smith replied “you have made a covenant with death and hell” thus fulfilling Isaiah 28:15

Per alaris the next servant is James, the Holy Ghost.

Per Michael The next servant is him.

Someone mighty and strong will lead us to Zion when the time comes (10-20 years IMO)

If you pay attention to Nelson, he is implying that he is the one that is mighty and strong.

Have fun in the hole you guys have dug, I hope you can get out and find peace.

Men like Abraham Gileadi and Robert Smith agave went down this hole and remained in the church, if that is any consolation.

[desertblossom]

I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Lot to unpack in your initial post. Also there is a later post I’d like to ask a question on as well.

That said, my first question that intrigues (excites) me: Where did you learn about the “Shema”? The term specifically (as obviously the verses are read on occasion by the church, they usually aren’t described that way). Through your parents? Here? The church? Elsewhere? Also, how long have you been referring to those groups of verses it that way?

[Reluctant Watchman]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

Sorry Atti, but the church is appearing much more like the spacious building, and the man in white the Q15.

[randomperson101]

Lot to unpack in your initial post. Also there is a later post I’d like to ask a question on as well.

That said, my first question that intrigues (excites) me: Where did you learn about the “Shema”? The term specifically (as obviously the verses are read on occasion by the church, they usually aren’t described that way). Through your parents? Here? The church? Elsewhere? Also, how long have you been referring to those groups of verses it that way?

I've studied a lot of Hebrew origins ever since I was kid, and so I thought it was more common knowledge than not. But the Bible Project is one source I've gone to that discusses it a bit - https://bibleproject.com/blog/what-is-the-shema/

[randomperson101]

Lets get one thing straight....nobody is driving anyone anywhere they don't want to go.

Okay, let me put it this way, there's something that brought joy and happiness in your life, now you're being lectured that it's all wrong & that you were raised wrong if you continue to believe so. It leaves a sour taste for both roads. If I continue down one path, it's going against the wills of my parents... the other path, goes with my parents, but down a path of confusion of what I've been doing my whole life & just tears apart everything I once knew to be true.

It's not fun either way in my mind, but yet I'm forced to choose.

I try to make it all about truth, even if it's not easy or pleasant, and even if that means I have to discard past traditions and things I grew up believing.

That's a fair point. Definitely a lot to pray about to find out what is the truth.

[Mamabear]

Lets get one thing straight....nobody is driving anyone anywhere they don't want to go.

Okay, let me put it this way, there's something that brought joy and happiness in your life, now you're being lectured that it's all wrong & that you were raised wrong if you continue to believe so. It leaves a sour taste for both roads. If I continue down one path, it's going against the wills of my parents... the other path, goes with my parents, but down a path of confusion of what I've been doing my whole life & just tears apart everything I once knew to be true.

It's not fun either way in my mind, but yet I'm forced to choose.

Give yourself grace and time to figure things out. Be patient with yourself. God will give you joy and happiness through his spirit.

[LDS Watchman]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

Sorry Atti, but the church is appearing much more like the spacious building, and the man in white the Q15.

No, the great and spacious building is not the church. Read for yourself what the people in that building are doing and who they are doing it to and try to figure out who it's talking about.

[Lemarque]

The Beast System will deceive many. Most probably won't even know they're in it. I think there is a difference between being in the System and declaring allegiance to it. The latter will burn for it, but naive will help perpetuate it even unwittingly.

The broader Beast System is the collective concept of shared morality, shared salvation and shared safety. The system which Satan introduced during the War in Heaven. It is also described in the Parable of the Ten Virgins. It is those who believe they can steal from others to fill their own lamps.

If you believe it is your responsibility to keep another person safe (from disease, racism, sexism, wealth, etc) you have signed onto the Mark of the Beast system. It's that simple.

God's way, on the other hand, is individualism, personal liberty, and personal responsibility.

So ask yourself which camp you fall into. Shared guilt, or personal responsibility.

I've been thinking about this type of deception that is shown in the Book of Mormon. In Ether 13:14-15 it talks about Coriantumr and Shiz gathering together their armies over the space of 4 years. 4 years!

And over those 4 years, they were arming "both men, women and children" with weapons and shields and head-plates. And they all fight. This is after over 2 million men, plus their wives and children, had been slain.

None of those people had anything to gain by fighting for either Shiz or Coriantumr. But millions of every day people went along with it for years. They were unaware that their actions were being controlled by Satan via secret combinations. As it says it verse 19, "Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed."

To the OP, compare the attitudes of the people (outside the church) who are pushing vaccinations to the different groups of people that are explained in the Tree of Life vision.

[Baurak Ale]

Jospeh Smith was sealed to many women, or you can say he &#%!@? many men…..

Why would Sylvia tell Josephine that her father was Joseph Smith on her death bed? DNA proves otherwise but more then one woman has testified that they were sealed to Jospeh Smith.

If you want to believe the RLDS opinion then so be it.

Look at the last general conference, one of them talked about Parley P Pratt. The man who was killed by the guy he &#%!@?.

We have not had a true servant of the lord lead this church since 1887. Jesus told us he would have 3 servants and the last one would not enter his father’s kingdom. Wilford Woodruff testimony of Jesus talking to him in the temple hallway tells us the leadership is on it’s own. When Wilford signed in 1890 he said “my god, what have I done?” And Joseph F. Smith replied “you have made a covenant with death and hell” thus fulfilling Isaiah 28:15

Per alaris the next servant is James, the Holy Ghost.

Per Michael The next servant is him.

Someone mighty and strong will lead us to Zion when the time comes (10-20 years IMO)

If you pay attention to Nelson, he is implying that he is the one that is mighty and strong.

Have fun in the hole you guys have dug, I hope you can get out and find peace.

Men like Abraham Gileadi and Robert Smith agave went down this hole and remained in the church, if that is any consolation.

I appreciate your observations here and am in agreement with most of your sentiments. But wasn't it Lorenzo Snow who saw the Lord in the hallway of the temple? The 3rd-hand account is that the Lord told him he appeared to him there because he was a good man, but that he refused to appear to him in the holy of holies because he did not acknowledge the church in its state, or something to that effect. In any event, it is consistent with Wilford Woodruff having made a covenant with death.

I had a dream (one of my spiritual gifts) not long ago where I came out of a log house at night to find two animals on the front lawn: a red heifer and a black bison. I attempted to cast them out for some reason and I successfully got the red heifer to bolt, but the bison only got more angry. At this, Wilford Woodruff came out of the log house and did the same, but the bison only got more angry, raising up on its hind legs and sort of turning into a red-eyed demon. I cast an object at it physically but it had little effect. The scene then changed and I was in a western saloon sort of place talking with a man in a cowboy hat seated at the bar. I told him of what I had just seen and he said, "Isn't it funny how dreams work; they always portray exactly what is needed to understand. Do you not see the lesson of it?"

Question for you: what are you referring to when you say that 'Jesus told us he would have 3 servants and the last one would not enter his father's kingdom'? Also, do you have a citation for the "My god, what have I done?" conversation? I would not mind seeing it even if it's from a source some would consider anti. What cannot be argued is that he died after attending the Bohemian Grove in San Francisco.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No, the great and spacious building is not the church. Read for yourself what the people in that building are doing and who they are doing it to and try to figure out who it's talking about.

You must have missed general conference.

[GeeR]

Speaking as a father of 4 boys who now have families of their own and speaking as one who takes the stewardship of fatherhood seriously I’ve told my boys I love them more than any teacher, coach, celebrity, financial advisor or prophet handing out bad advice to them that runs contrary to my counsel. Damn all these outside voices that tread on parental stewardship! When you have children of your own you will see what I mean.

I’ve told my boys over and over and shown them through my actions with their mother at my side that we are truly invested in protecting them, guiding them, caring for them, educating them and looking out for happiness and spiritual welfare. I get the sense from what you’ve said that your parents are doing and feeling the same way as me and my wife. Parents make mistakes too but in this case they are spot on! Who’s looking out for your best interests, your parents who have nurtured you throughout your life or some so-called prophet that speaks to the masses and doesn’t even know that you exist? “Familiarity breeds contempt” don’t let this ugly truth interfere with the loving relationship you have with your parents, they only want what best for you, respect and honor that, please.

[InfoWarrior82]

I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

If you heart is in Babylon, you've already declared your allegiance.

My opinion is that the beast SYSTEM has been born. It's not one single thing, but a whole host of things working in concert together. The passports being required to buy and sell is the most telling and obvious attribute. A jab passport that you can only receive AFTER you are jabbed and continue to be jabbed until you are dead. Digital currency, social credit score, carbon allotments, and more. All wrapped together under a single identifier on a global scale.

Satan isn't dumb. He knows what the scriptures say about his plans... So... he's not going to plop it all down at once exactly the way we have been taught it would be. Did you really think he would? Were you born in a bomb shelter? Do you often fall for scams? He works through slow increments so you don't notice.

The arm or forehead? Ever stop to think if this is describing something metaphorical? Our own church says it is. Even if it's not, does it have to be implemented in this manner right at the beginning? Check it out: https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ame=GLOB88

Revelation 13:16–17. The Mark of the Beast
In contrast to the righteous, who keep their covenants with God and receive His protecting seal on their foreheads (see Revelation 7:2–3; 14:1; 22:4; the commentary for Revelation 7:3; 9:4), the wicked who worship the beast “receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads” (Revelation 13:16). This may symbolize that the wicked show by their actions (hands) and beliefs (heads) that they do the will of the beast and accept his ideology. However, the precise meaning of “the mark” has not been revealed.

The numbers 666 is all over this. Check it out: https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/ ... =PCTBIBLIO

Anyone here live in NYC or LA? Australia? Try living your life living in these places and then come tell me that this isn't the mark of the beast.

[LDS Watchman]

No, the great and spacious building is not the church. Read for yourself what the people in that building are doing and who they are doing it to and try to figure out who it's talking about.

You must have missed general conference.

I watched most of it. Didn't see or hear anything related to what the people in the great and spacious building are doing. Do you know know what the scriptures say about the great and spacious building?

[Serragon]

It is interesting to me that you say you are being driven from your faith, but everything you referenced had to do with the church itself.

Perhaps your faith has been in an institution and not properly placed where it should be? Remember that the church is simply a tool meant to help point you to Christ. But often the tool becomes the object of our faith because it is so tangible and present. And because the tool becomes so important, there is potential for it to be used by conspiring men to exert power and control.

Put your faith in Christ. Study the scriptures and the teachings of Joseph. Then study the teachings of the church since then. Discard anything that doesn't coincide with those sources unless given as revelation. Then prayerfully consider that new revelation. Apply the principles you learn from this study to any new situation that arises. Always involve prayer, fasting, and the Spirit.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No, the great and spacious building is not the church. Read for yourself what the people in that building are doing and who they are doing it to and try to figure out who it's talking about.

You must have missed general conference.

I watched most of it. Didn't see or hear anything related to what the people in the great and spacious building are doing. Do you know know what the scriptures say about the great and spacious building?

I think Nephi was on to something. Great and Spacious = Fine Sanctuaries. Yep, I agree with him.

[LDS Watchman]

No, the great and spacious building is not the church. Read for yourself what the people in that building are doing and who they are doing it to and try to figure out who it's talking about.

You must have missed general conference.

I watched most of it. Didn't see or hear anything related to what the people in the great and spacious building are doing. Do you know know what the scriptures say about the great and spacious building?

I think Nephi was on to something. Great and Spacious = Fine Sanctuaries. Yep, I agree with him.

Read what it says about the people in the building. What are the people in the building doing?

[Bronco73idi]

Jospeh Smith was sealed to many women, or you can say he &#%!@? many men…..

Why would Sylvia tell Josephine that her father was Joseph Smith on her death bed? DNA proves otherwise but more then one woman has testified that they were sealed to Jospeh Smith.

If you want to believe the RLDS opinion then so be it.

Look at the last general conference, one of them talked about Parley P Pratt. The man who was killed by the guy he &#%!@?.

We have not had a true servant of the lord lead this church since 1887. Jesus told us he would have 3 servants and the last one would not enter his father’s kingdom. Wilford Woodruff testimony of Jesus talking to him in the temple hallway tells us the leadership is on it’s own. When Wilford signed in 1890 he said “my god, what have I done?” And Joseph F. Smith replied “you have made a covenant with death and hell” thus fulfilling Isaiah 28:15

Per alaris the next servant is James, the Holy Ghost.

Per Michael The next servant is him.

Someone mighty and strong will lead us to Zion when the time comes (10-20 years IMO)

If you pay attention to Nelson, he is implying that he is the one that is mighty and strong.

Have fun in the hole you guys have dug, I hope you can get out and find peace.

Men like Abraham Gileadi and Robert Smith agave went down this hole and remained in the church, if that is any consolation.

I appreciate your observations here and am in agreement with most of your sentiments. But wasn't it Lorenzo Snow who saw the Lord in the hallway of the temple? The 3rd-hand account is that the Lord told him he appeared to him there because he was a good man, but that he refused to appear to him in the holy of holies because he did not acknowledge the church in its state, or something to that effect. In any event, it is consistent with Wilford Woodruff having made a covenant with death.

I had a dream (one of my spiritual gifts) not long ago where I came out of a log house at night to find two animals on the front lawn: a red heifer and a black bison. I attempted to cast them out for some reason and I successfully got the red heifer to bolt, but the bison only got more angry. At this, Wilford Woodruff came out of the log house and did the same, but the bison only got more angry, raising up on its hind legs and sort of turning into a red-eyed demon. I cast an object at it physically but it had little effect. The scene then changed and I was in a western saloon sort of place talking with a man in a cowboy hat seated at the bar. I told him of what I had just seen and he said, "Isn't it funny how dreams work; they always portray exactly what is needed to understand. Do you not see the lesson of it?"

Question for you: what are you referring to when you say that 'Jesus told us he would have 3 servants and the last one would not enter his father's kingdom'? Also, do you have a citation for the "My god, what have I done?" conversation? I would not mind seeing it even if it's from a source some would consider anti. What cannot be argued is that he died after attending the Bohemian Grove in San Francisco.

I was wrong, it is Snow like you said.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29844&p=1072304&hil ... y#p1072304

Jesus parable of the 3 servants and the talents, Robert Smith broke that down beautifully

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57687&hilit=Robert+Smith+talents

Wilford Woodruff “my god what have I done”

viewtopic.php?t=55496

Joseph Musser wrote
My God! what have I done," President Woodruff is reported to have said, after placing his signature to the Manifesto. And one of his counselors [Joseph F. Smith] answered, "You have signed a covenant with death and an agreement with hell, that's what you have done.

http://www.shields-research.org/Books/P ... ry-c09.htm

[Reluctant Watchman]

You must have missed general conference.

I watched most of it. Didn't see or hear anything related to what the people in the great and spacious building are doing. Do you know know what the scriptures say about the great and spacious building?

I think Nephi was on to something. Great and Spacious = Fine Sanctuaries. Yep, I agree with him.

Read what it says about the people in the building. What are the people in the building doing?

Wearing expensive clothing? Haha...
Dude, I know all about the parable. I know where you are going with it. Stop hinting. I get it. The church is off its rocker man. They are the epitome of Isaiah 56:10.