My parents are driving me from the faith I once loved.

[LDS Watchman]

What are the people in the building doing Reluctant?

They are being reluctant? Oh, they are mocking God by distorting His doctrine. Gotcha. Glad we got that cleared up. Thanks Atti.

No Reluctant, it doesn't say the people in the building are mocking God. Who does it say they are mocking?

Who... let the dogs out? I think it's cool that you consider yourself as one of the humble and penitent followers along the path of the iron rod, quietly sitting by the tree of life, taking the mocking and scorn from the building.

You should really ask yourself why you like to mock others so much and who it is you are following when you do this.

[LDS Watchman]

The believing members of the Lord's church are not laughing at and mocking those who are trying to press forward on the straight and narrow path.

But they are certainly being laughed at and mocked by many.

Your words are mocking me, I go to the LDS church still. I think most people are clueless to what they are really saying or reading. Isaiah and the lord said our leaders where going to fail. The lord didn’t agree with the ones who ran the temple but he still went. We should strive to be dirt, moveable and moldable

How were my words mocking you?

I’m not being laughed at or mocked, that implies I’m a non believing member per your words. When the Pharisees mocked or question the lord he replied many times “ye hypocrites”. We should be more like the lord, I have no problem saying ye hypocrite to someone.

If they don’t question me directly I have no reason to care about what they say or do.

I wasn't implying that you aren't a believing member. You must have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

[LDS Watchman]

The believing members of the Lord's church are not laughing at and mocking those who are trying to press forward on the straight and narrow path.

But they are certainly being laughed at and mocked by many.

I am sorry, but many are. I grew up in Salt Lake City. I know that there are many members who mock those who are humble and trying to do the Lord's will. Specially if they're not wealthy or come from connected families. Our church is filled with vanity and unbelief.

Can you please provide some examples of the supposed mocking you are referring to?

I'll give some it isn't just for the church though, it is found in the church - Mocking for not watching TV or Movies, or listening to modern music, not playing video games, mocking for leaving a movie, or for walking away from something uncomfortable to them and the opposite - mocking because they walked away, mocking naivety, mocking someone because they wear church clothing all sunday, mocking someone because they don't wear church clothing all sunday, Mocking someone because they don't go to church, mocking someone because they do go to church, mocking someone for being a Peter Priesthood, or mocking somone for not being a "peter priesthood" or a MOlly mormon etc... Mocking someone because they like the Bible more than the BoM or because they like the BoM more than the Book of Mormon, Mocking someone for not drinking caffeine, mocking someone because they do drink caffeine, mocking because of not eating meat, mocking because they do eat meat, mocking because they don't eat sugar, mocking because they do eat sugar, mocking because someone doesn't have nice clothes, mocking because they do have nice clothes, mocking because of the car they drive or the house they live in, mocking them because of their jobs, mocking somoene because they are awkward. The list goes on. You might say "those aren't really following the LOrd type of htings' and I'll reply "how do you know, why don't we let them follow their conscience and not mock them if they are sincerely trying to seek Him and "not watch TV" if that helps them"

We are terrible Christians... in fact most people who claim to be Christian are terrible Christians, which is why God said "upon my house it will begin - first among those who claim to bear my name." Perhaps it would be good for us to all read Alma 5, repent and refocus on the Lord rather than looking around at everyone around us and deriding them because of all the straws in their eyes when we have logs in our own eyes. We all need to turn to God more (repent) we all need to forgive more and most of all we all need to start sharing the Glory of hte the Lord more (glory means His presence) If we aren't sharing His presence and His weight, we aren't really bearing His name.

Do you know what it means to mock?

The member aren't perfect and there are lots of tares doing all sorts of wicked things, including mocking those who are trying to do what's right. But by and large the true believing members of the church are not mocking people for trying to follow the straight and narrow path. Reluctant Watchman's charge of the church being the great and spacious building is a ridiculous charge to make.

[nightlight]

18 And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men.

[LDS Watchman]

Trust in the Holy Ghost and in the word of God in the scriptures and by the mouth of Joseph Smith.

If a "spirit" tells you something that contradicts these things, then this "spirit" is a false one.

Wow. This is blind allegiance. How can the Spirit be wrong if you humbly ask the Lord for answers? I believe He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It is an incorrect assumption to believe that the Lord would only answer the questions of some with truthfulness and guide others astray. Above all else I would advise the OP to listen to the Spirit, confirm his/her answers with Father, then act upon that revelation if it indeed came from the Spirit. Blind allegiance to the arm of the flesh will only lead you to death.

There are many false spirits. You have to test them and one way to do that is to compare what they say against what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say.

Yes, you are correct. I agree with your statement. However, even unholy spirits are bound by eternal laws. If we are meek and lowly in heart, we can pray to the Father to provide us with truth. Once we receive those answers, we must then confirm with Father that they indeed come from Him. The issue is, the adversary will fill us with fear to keep us from seeking truth. We then conflate the adversary's feelings with incorrect answers from the Spirit and think that we are being led astray when the Spirit is actually trying to confirm truth. We have to be careful in discerning that still, small voice. It takes practice. I speak from experience. I'm not new to this. In the church we have taught too many people to be scared to ask tough questions because we're not worthy or because only great men or men in the past are allowed to receive divine counsel from God. That is a false doctrine. The OP is equally able to receive counsel from Father or Christ just as simply as the Brethren.

Of course the individual who wrote the OP can receive personal revelation from the Holy Ghost. But he can also just as easily be deceived by false spirits, which is why he must test what any spirit tells him against the scriptures.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Geez, get it right John. 'The members who aren't mocking, AREN'T mocking. And the members who are mocking, ARE mocking.' - Atticus

The 'believing' members, or as we can now say, the 'wheat', would never do such a thing.

[Alexander]

As I understand it, the great and spacious building is the Kingdom if the devil, filled with its derision, plot, and scheme against the church of the Lamb of God.

It’s pride and vain imaginations manifest in the corrupted churches of the Gentiles, and seek to fight against the assembly of Christ.

“And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.”

[LDS Watchman]

Geez, get it right John. 'The members who aren't mocking, AREN'T mocking. And the members who are mocking, ARE mocking.' - Atticus

The 'believing' members, or as we can now say, the 'wheat', would never do such a thing.

In the church there are both wheat and tares. And no, I don't believe the wheat aren't mocking people.

There are active members who really don't have testimonies, aren't righteous, and are hypocrites. These tares are causing a lot of problems. But even most of these tares aren't openly mocking other members for trying to do what's right.

Most of the mocking I've seen in the church is from members, or former members, who no longer believe in the truthfulness of the Lord's church. They mock the believing members and accuse them of being blind, trusting in the arm of flesh, being hypocrites, being deceived, being brainwashed, and so on.

These mockers, who are members of the house of Israel, match the description of those in the great and spacious building very well. But they aren't the only ones in the building.

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Geez, get it right John. 'The members who aren't mocking, AREN'T mocking. And the members who are mocking, ARE mocking.' - Atticus

The 'believing' members, or as we can now say, the 'wheat', would never do such a thing.

In the church there are both wheat and tares. And no, I don't believe the wheat aren't mocking people.

There are active members who really don't have testimonies, aren't righteous, and are hypocrites. These tares are causing a lot of problems. But even most of these tares aren't openly mocking other members for trying to do what's right.

Most of the mocking I've seen in the church is from members, or former members, who no longer believe in the truthfulness of the Lord's church. They mock the believing members and accuse them of being blind, trusting in the arm of flesh, being hypocrites, being deceived, being brainwashed, and so on.

These mockers, who are members of the house of Israel, match the description of those in the great and spacious building very well. But they aren't the only ones in the building.

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You live in some kind of bubble. Your descriptions of members and "critics" don't match most of what I've experienced. Good on you, I'm glad things seem dandy, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because you have a particular perspective in your particular circumstances.

Most of the members I know who I feel are really trying to understand what's going on, not just going through the motions, are questioning the direction of the church and finding out for themselves that certain teachings contradict those of the Lord. If you think there are none, go read through Rasband's talk.

I don't care to argue with you, but man, this is exactly the pride I am seeing in the church. "My way or the highway". You don't see it that way, but I can guarantee you I'm not the only one here.

[LDS Watchman]

Geez, get it right John. 'The members who aren't mocking, AREN'T mocking. And the members who are mocking, ARE mocking.' - Atticus

The 'believing' members, or as we can now say, the 'wheat', would never do such a thing.

In the church there are both wheat and tares. And no, I don't believe the wheat aren't mocking people.

There are active members who really don't have testimonies, aren't righteous, and are hypocrites. These tares are causing a lot of problems. But even most of these tares aren't openly mocking other members for trying to do what's right.

Most of the mocking I've seen in the church is from members, or former members, who no longer believe in the truthfulness of the Lord's church. They mock the believing members and accuse them of being blind, trusting in the arm of flesh, being hypocrites, being deceived, being brainwashed, and so on.

These mockers, who are members of the house of Israel, match the description of those in the great and spacious building very well. But they aren't the only ones in the building.

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You live in some kind of bubble. Your descriptions of members and "critics" don't match most of what I've experienced. Good on you, I'm glad things seem dandy, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because you have a particular perspective in your particular circumstances.

Most of the members I know who I feel are really trying to understand what's going on, not just going through the motions, are questioning the direction of the church and finding out for themselves that certain teachings contradict those of the Lord. If you think there are none, go read through Rasband's talk.

I don't care to argue with you, but man, this is exactly the pride I am seeing in the church. "My way or the highway". You don't see it that way, but I can guarantee you I'm not the only one here.

There you go again. I have never said that everything in the church seems dandy to me.

But it is the Lord's way or the highway. We're either in his church and keeping his commandments or we aren't.

If we're attacking his church and trying to convince everyone that it's not really his church, while looking to find as many faults or supposed faults as we can so we accuse the church and its leaders of being evil, well...

[Gadianton Slayer]

Geez, get it right John. 'The members who aren't mocking, AREN'T mocking. And the members who are mocking, ARE mocking.' - Atticus

The 'believing' members, or as we can now say, the 'wheat', would never do such a thing.

In the church there are both wheat and tares. And no, I don't believe the wheat aren't mocking people.

There are active members who really don't have testimonies, aren't righteous, and are hypocrites. These tares are causing a lot of problems. But even most of these tares aren't openly mocking other members for trying to do what's right.

Most of the mocking I've seen in the church is from members, or former members, who no longer believe in the truthfulness of the Lord's church. They mock the believing members and accuse them of being blind, trusting in the arm of flesh, being hypocrites, being deceived, being brainwashed, and so on.

These mockers, who are members of the house of Israel, match the description of those in the great and spacious building very well. But they aren't the only ones in the building.

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You live in some kind of bubble. Your descriptions of members and "critics" don't match most of what I've experienced. Good on you, I'm glad things seem dandy, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because you have a particular perspective in your particular circumstances.

Most of the members I know who I feel are really trying to understand what's going on, not just going through the motions, are questioning the direction of the church and finding out for themselves that certain teachings contradict those of the Lord. If you think there are none, go read through Rasband's talk.

I don't care to argue with you, but man, this is exactly the pride I am seeing in the church. "My way or the highway". You don't see it that way, but I can guarantee you I'm not the only one here.

There you go again. I have never said that everything in the church seems dandy to me.

But it is the Lord's way or the highway. We're either in his church and keeping his commandments or we aren't.

If we're attacking his church and trying to convince everyone that it's not really his church, while looking to find as many faults or supposed faults as we can so we accuse the church and its leaders of being evil, well...

Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can.

One way or the other, the brethren's true intentions and allegiance will likely soon be revealed.

[LDS Watchman]

In the church there are both wheat and tares. And no, I don't believe the wheat aren't mocking people.

There are active members who really don't have testimonies, aren't righteous, and are hypocrites. These tares are causing a lot of problems. But even most of these tares aren't openly mocking other members for trying to do what's right.

Most of the mocking I've seen in the church is from members, or former members, who no longer believe in the truthfulness of the Lord's church. They mock the believing members and accuse them of being blind, trusting in the arm of flesh, being hypocrites, being deceived, being brainwashed, and so on.

These mockers, who are members of the house of Israel, match the description of those in the great and spacious building very well. But they aren't the only ones in the building.

35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You live in some kind of bubble. Your descriptions of members and "critics" don't match most of what I've experienced. Good on you, I'm glad things seem dandy, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because you have a particular perspective in your particular circumstances.

Most of the members I know who I feel are really trying to understand what's going on, not just going through the motions, are questioning the direction of the church and finding out for themselves that certain teachings contradict those of the Lord. If you think there are none, go read through Rasband's talk.

I don't care to argue with you, but man, this is exactly the pride I am seeing in the church. "My way or the highway". You don't see it that way, but I can guarantee you I'm not the only one here.

There you go again. I have never said that everything in the church seems dandy to me.

But it is the Lord's way or the highway. We're either in his church and keeping his commandments or we aren't.

If we're attacking his church and trying to convince everyone that it's not really his church, while looking to find as many faults or supposed faults as we can so we accuse the church and its leaders of being evil, well...

Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can.

One way or the other, the brethren's true intentions and allegiance will likely soon be revealed.

What do mean when you say "Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can."

[Gadianton Slayer]

You live in some kind of bubble. Your descriptions of members and "critics" don't match most of what I've experienced. Good on you, I'm glad things seem dandy, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because you have a particular perspective in your particular circumstances.

Most of the members I know who I feel are really trying to understand what's going on, not just going through the motions, are questioning the direction of the church and finding out for themselves that certain teachings contradict those of the Lord. If you think there are none, go read through Rasband's talk.

I don't care to argue with you, but man, this is exactly the pride I am seeing in the church. "My way or the highway". You don't see it that way, but I can guarantee you I'm not the only one here.

There you go again. I have never said that everything in the church seems dandy to me.

But it is the Lord's way or the highway. We're either in his church and keeping his commandments or we aren't.

If we're attacking his church and trying to convince everyone that it's not really his church, while looking to find as many faults or supposed faults as we can so we accuse the church and its leaders of being evil, well...

Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can.

One way or the other, the brethren's true intentions and allegiance will likely soon be revealed.

What do mean when you say "Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can."

I'll leave that up to your imagination Have a good day man.

[LDS Watchman]

There you go again. I have never said that everything in the church seems dandy to me.

But it is the Lord's way or the highway. We're either in his church and keeping his commandments or we aren't.

If we're attacking his church and trying to convince everyone that it's not really his church, while looking to find as many faults or supposed faults as we can so we accuse the church and its leaders of being evil, well...

Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can.

One way or the other, the brethren's true intentions and allegiance will likely soon be revealed.

What do mean when you say "Shining light reveals darkness. Those beliefs are very comfortable, aren't they? Hold on to them while you can."

I'll leave that up to your imagination Have a good day man.

Sounds good. You, too.

I will try and answer your questions about 3 Nephi 21 and 3 Nephi 16:10 later today or tomorrow.

[randomperson101]

Speaking as a father of 4 boys who now have families of their own and speaking as one who takes the stewardship of fatherhood seriously I’ve told my boys I love them more than any teacher, coach, celebrity, financial advisor or prophet handing out bad advice to them that runs contrary to my counsel. Damn all these outside voices that tread on parental stewardship! When you have children of your own you will see what I mean.

I’ve told my boys over and over and shown them through my actions with their mother at my side that we are truly invested in protecting them, guiding them, caring for them, educating them and looking out for happiness and spiritual welfare. I get the sense from what you’ve said that your parents are doing and feeling the same way as me and my wife. Parents make mistakes too but in this case they are spot on! Who’s looking out for your best interests, your parents who have nurtured you throughout your life or some so-called prophet that speaks to the masses and doesn’t even know that you exist? “Familiarity breeds contempt” don’t let this ugly truth interfere with the loving relationship you have with your parents, they only want what best for you, respect and honor that, please.

This is absolutely a fair point, and I may not have painted them in the best light. I know they only want the best for me & they're loving no matter what decision I make in life. The only thing that pains me, is I feel our difference of opinions here has made it hard to just talk... and so it has changed our relationship slightly.

My brothers & sister are atheist for example, and while we love them & talk with them, it's been an interesting relationship over the years. At this point, the Gospel is just never brought up in conversations because we just disagree on everything... That's where I don't want things to go. I want to be able to talk freely and express my thoughts with my parents, but the divisiveness of opinions here is worrying to say the least.

Maybe that's a me problem, but it's just something I notice. We all want the same things in the end.

[GeeR]

Speaking as a father of 4 boys who now have families of their own and speaking as one who takes the stewardship of fatherhood seriously I’ve told my boys I love them more than any teacher, coach, celebrity, financial advisor or prophet handing out bad advice to them that runs contrary to my counsel. Damn all these outside voices that tread on parental stewardship! When you have children of your own you will see what I mean.

I’ve told my boys over and over and shown them through my actions with their mother at my side that we are truly invested in protecting them, guiding them, caring for them, educating them and looking out for happiness and spiritual welfare. I get the sense from what you’ve said that your parents are doing and feeling the same way as me and my wife. Parents make mistakes too but in this case they are spot on! Who’s looking out for your best interests, your parents who have nurtured you throughout your life or some so-called prophet that speaks to the masses and doesn’t even know that you exist? “Familiarity breeds contempt” don’t let this ugly truth interfere with the loving relationship you have with your parents, they only want what best for you, respect and honor that, please.

This is absolutely a fair point, and I may not have painted them in the best light. I know they only want the best for me & they're loving no matter what decision I make in life. The only thing that pains me, is I feel our difference of opinions here has made it hard to just talk... and so it has changed our relationship slightly.

My brothers & sister are atheist for example, and while we love them & talk with them, it's been an interesting relationship over the years. At this point, the Gospel is just never brought up in conversations because we just disagree on everything... That's where I don't want things to go. I want to be able to talk freely and express my thoughts with my parents, but the divisiveness of opinions here is worrying to say the least.

Maybe that's a me problem, but it's just something I notice. We all want the same things in the end.

I know what you mean about family disagreeing. When I finally became aware that the church isn’t what it claimed to be and the reasons behind it, I’ve tried to relay those whys and wherefores to my boys. For the most part it has had the effect of water on a duck, they pretty much have been so indoctrinated from a lifetime in the church that I’m having difficulty bugging them from their comfort zones. Looking back over the years I now can see that what I thought was testimony building was actually brain-washing. I myself was likewise brainwashed and considered anything contrary to what the brethren was anti-Mormon propaganda, but through the years and with a little critical thinking I noticed small discrepancies in the teachings and started looking into them deeper on my own and discovered how wrong everything is about the counterfeit gospel we think is true. Looking back, I asked myself why I didn't see these things myself a long time ago. I've concluded that the reason was that I put too much trust in my Sunday School teachers' lessons and testimonies when they were just parroting what they heard. We see this all the time when little kids get up and say, “I know the church is true and the prophet speaks for God” when they really cannot defend what they say. After a lifetime in an environment of this compounded by the bishops, stake presidents and General Authorities with all the Gospel lessons and seminary all speaking and testifying of the same things. It does have an effect on our psyches and tends to make us resistant to new or challenging information. It took me a long time to break free from this cycle and I’m 72 years old. I am glad I made the leap. I’m trying to tell and explain these controversial things to my wife and kids too. They resisted at first but gradually with baby steps I can see that they are starting to check some of my claims out and learning that I’m not just making things up. People’s paradigms are hard things to change but it takes time and effort. I wrote this fast, so I won’t be late for work, I hope it makes sense.

[keeprunning]

Take what's good and leave the rest...i would caution anyone who has or will throw away the church/faith/gospel....(what ever your definition is)....purpose, direction, light and inspiration is a bad thing to lose. Living the principles of the gospel provides an unseen hedge of protection around you that is multi dimensional and layered like an onion......hard luck seems to follow those who once had light and then somehow either STOPPED CULTIVATING IT, gave it away or lost it. I personally don't like hard luck...... learning lessons over and over again like I have done in the past as I shunned the hedge of protection for a "better easier way", is not a great time.....js...... Honor your parents by living your best life according to you....worrying about the church history aspect of things is sure to be confusing and not very productive as it relates to your own personal growth......surround yourself with good people, work hard and be your own person and above all have joy in the journey........ Best of luck to the OP.

Depends on the person. I've had much better luck after going on my own, being free of guilt trips and constant feeling of falling short. And not having to make sense out of nonsense and no longer trying to figure out when the leaders are inspired and when they are not. Easier to figure things out on my own. I don't have to spend countless hours agonizing over the meaning of every verse in scripture as we see on this forum. I don't see why it needs to be so complicated.

One can live most of the gospel without sitting butt in pews and paying for church buildings and church investment portfolios. One can spend more time with family, and help neighbors and grow a garden, and live a clean life, and on and on. One can study wise words from all sources, can study principles of freedom, etc.

The problem the OP has is thinking. Best not to think in the church. Faith is not about thinking. With faith, you decide in advance what you want to believe, then select supporting evidence, and ignore the rest. Some people aren't very good at blocking out contrary evidence, and can become mentally ill if pressured to ignore it, as happens in the church.

I mean, I feel that way, too. But I still go to church and believe the Priesthood was restored. You can be in the church and still not have guilt trips and feel like you're falling short. I learned how to do that long ago. Also learned how to stop worrying about when leaders are inspired or when they are not. They way to do it is to just go back to the words that inspire you.

[keeprunning]

Speaking as a father of 4 boys who now have families of their own and speaking as one who takes the stewardship of fatherhood seriously I’ve told my boys I love them more than any teacher, coach, celebrity, financial advisor or prophet handing out bad advice to them that runs contrary to my counsel. Damn all these outside voices that tread on parental stewardship! When you have children of your own you will see what I mean.

I’ve told my boys over and over and shown them through my actions with their mother at my side that we are truly invested in protecting them, guiding them, caring for them, educating them and looking out for happiness and spiritual welfare. I get the sense from what you’ve said that your parents are doing and feeling the same way as me and my wife. Parents make mistakes too but in this case they are spot on! Who’s looking out for your best interests, your parents who have nurtured you throughout your life or some so-called prophet that speaks to the masses and doesn’t even know that you exist? “Familiarity breeds contempt” don’t let this ugly truth interfere with the loving relationship you have with your parents, they only want what best for you, respect and honor that, please.

This is absolutely a fair point, and I may not have painted them in the best light. I know they only want the best for me & they're loving no matter what decision I make in life. The only thing that pains me, is I feel our difference of opinions here has made it hard to just talk... and so it has changed our relationship slightly.

My brothers & sister are atheist for example, and while we love them & talk with them, it's been an interesting relationship over the years. At this point, the Gospel is just never brought up in conversations because we just disagree on everything... That's where I don't want things to go. I want to be able to talk freely and express my thoughts with my parents, but the divisiveness of opinions here is worrying to say the least.

Maybe that's a me problem, but it's just something I notice. We all want the same things in the end.

Completely relate to the family situation. Not all with religion, but politics and the "pandemic" attitudes, too. It's getting more rare to find family that you can speak freely to on any topic. Mostly, like you, I have learned what topics to avoid with certain people if I want to keep that relationship. It truly sucks that that is how the world is now. I hope you can be inspired in how to navigate this all!

[John Tavner]

I am sorry, but many are. I grew up in Salt Lake City. I know that there are many members who mock those who are humble and trying to do the Lord's will. Specially if they're not wealthy or come from connected families. Our church is filled with vanity and unbelief.

Can you please provide some examples of the supposed mocking you are referring to?

I'll give some it isn't just for the church though, it is found in the church - Mocking for not watching TV or Movies, or listening to modern music, not playing video games, mocking for leaving a movie, or for walking away from something uncomfortable to them and the opposite - mocking because they walked away, mocking naivety, mocking someone because they wear church clothing all sunday, mocking someone because they don't wear church clothing all sunday, Mocking someone because they don't go to church, mocking someone because they do go to church, mocking someone for being a Peter Priesthood, or mocking somone for not being a "peter priesthood" or a MOlly mormon etc... Mocking someone because they like the Bible more than the BoM or because they like the BoM more than the Book of Mormon, Mocking someone for not drinking caffeine, mocking someone because they do drink caffeine, mocking because of not eating meat, mocking because they do eat meat, mocking because they don't eat sugar, mocking because they do eat sugar, mocking because someone doesn't have nice clothes, mocking because they do have nice clothes, mocking because of the car they drive or the house they live in, mocking them because of their jobs, mocking somoene because they are awkward. The list goes on. You might say "those aren't really following the LOrd type of htings' and I'll reply "how do you know, why don't we let them follow their conscience and not mock them if they are sincerely trying to seek Him and "not watch TV" if that helps them"

We are terrible Christians... in fact most people who claim to be Christian are terrible Christians, which is why God said "upon my house it will begin - first among those who claim to bear my name." Perhaps it would be good for us to all read Alma 5, repent and refocus on the Lord rather than looking around at everyone around us and deriding them because of all the straws in their eyes when we have logs in our own eyes. We all need to turn to God more (repent) we all need to forgive more and most of all we all need to start sharing the Glory of hte the Lord more (glory means His presence) If we aren't sharing His presence and His weight, we aren't really bearing His name.

Do you know what it means to mock?

The member aren't perfect and there are lots of tares doing all sorts of wicked things, including mocking those who are trying to do what's right. But by and large the true believing members of the church are not mocking people for trying to follow the straight and narrow path. Reluctant Watchman's charge of the church being the great and spacious building is a ridiculous charge to make.

When you ask a question like "do you know what it means to mock?", It is condescending. It is automatically setting yourself up as better than me. It's as if you think I don't know what "To Mock" means.

Condescending: : showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others
Superior: : affecting or assuming an air of superiority : supercilious
Superlicious: : coolly and patronizingly haughty
Haughty: : blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior
Disdain: : a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior

Here I'll use the dictionary to show how what I've listed out are examples of mocking: To Mock : to treat with contempt or ridicule

Contempt: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises

Despise: : to look down on with disrespect or aversion despised the weak
2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful

Disrespect: : low regard or esteem for someone or something : lack of respect

Ridicule: the act of ridiculing: to make fun of

Derision: : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

Scorn: : open dislike and disrespect or mockery often mixed with indignation
2 : an expression of contempt or derision

Finally I never said the members were perfect. I said most who claim to be Christians are terrible Christians - why? Because they have "haughty" necks - what does Haughty mean, I will requote it: blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior We are constantly seeking our own rather than His own. We seek our own life and not His.
. We can not help but parade around our beliefs without being haughty. We are constantly patting ourselves on the back for being a part of the "one true church" If ther eare members in the church and thye don't follow our ways we call them "tares" again implying that we are the wheat and therefore we are superior, that they are not "worthy." This isn't just among the LDS it is everywhere, but it is very prominent in our church. Like I said, we need to check our selves and repent.

[LDS Watchman]

Can you please provide some examples of the supposed mocking you are referring to?

I'll give some it isn't just for the church though, it is found in the church - Mocking for not watching TV or Movies, or listening to modern music, not playing video games, mocking for leaving a movie, or for walking away from something uncomfortable to them and the opposite - mocking because they walked away, mocking naivety, mocking someone because they wear church clothing all sunday, mocking someone because they don't wear church clothing all sunday, Mocking someone because they don't go to church, mocking someone because they do go to church, mocking someone for being a Peter Priesthood, or mocking somone for not being a "peter priesthood" or a MOlly mormon etc... Mocking someone because they like the Bible more than the BoM or because they like the BoM more than the Book of Mormon, Mocking someone for not drinking caffeine, mocking someone because they do drink caffeine, mocking because of not eating meat, mocking because they do eat meat, mocking because they don't eat sugar, mocking because they do eat sugar, mocking because someone doesn't have nice clothes, mocking because they do have nice clothes, mocking because of the car they drive or the house they live in, mocking them because of their jobs, mocking somoene because they are awkward. The list goes on. You might say "those aren't really following the LOrd type of htings' and I'll reply "how do you know, why don't we let them follow their conscience and not mock them if they are sincerely trying to seek Him and "not watch TV" if that helps them"

We are terrible Christians... in fact most people who claim to be Christian are terrible Christians, which is why God said "upon my house it will begin - first among those who claim to bear my name." Perhaps it would be good for us to all read Alma 5, repent and refocus on the Lord rather than looking around at everyone around us and deriding them because of all the straws in their eyes when we have logs in our own eyes. We all need to turn to God more (repent) we all need to forgive more and most of all we all need to start sharing the Glory of hte the Lord more (glory means His presence) If we aren't sharing His presence and His weight, we aren't really bearing His name.

Do you know what it means to mock?

The member aren't perfect and there are lots of tares doing all sorts of wicked things, including mocking those who are trying to do what's right. But by and large the true believing members of the church are not mocking people for trying to follow the straight and narrow path. Reluctant Watchman's charge of the church being the great and spacious building is a ridiculous charge to make.

When you ask a question like "do you know what it means to mock?", It is condescending. It is automatically setting yourself up as better than me. It's as if you think I don't know what "To Mock" means.

Condescending: : showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others
Superior: : affecting or assuming an air of superiority : supercilious
Superlicious: : coolly and patronizingly haughty
Haughty: : blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior
Disdain: : a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior

Here I'll use the dictionary to show how what I've listed out are examples of mocking: To Mock : to treat with contempt or ridicule

Contempt: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises

Despise: : to look down on with disrespect or aversion despised the weak
2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful

Disrespect: : low regard or esteem for someone or something : lack of respect

Ridicule: the act of ridiculing: to make fun of

Derision: : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

Scorn: : open dislike and disrespect or mockery often mixed with indignation
2 : an expression of contempt or derision

Finally I never said the members were perfect. I said most who claim to be Christians are terrible Christians - why? Because they have "haughty" necks - what does Haughty mean, I will requote it: blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior We are constantly seeking our own rather than His own. We seek our own life and not His.
. We can not help but parade around our beliefs without being haughty. We are constantly patting ourselves on the back for being a part of the "one true church" If ther eare members in the church and thye don't follow our ways we call them "tares" again implying that we are the wheat and therefore we are superior, that they are not "worthy." This isn't just among the LDS it is everywhere, but it is very prominent in our church. Like I said, we need to check our selves and repent.

I don't consider any of the things you mentioned to be examples of members of the Lord's church mocking those who are trying to follow the straight and narrow path. So if you think what you described is mocking, I don't think you know what it means to mock someone. Which is why I asked if you know what it means.

There's also a difference between being haughty and mocking people.

[Lemarque]

You should really ask yourself why you like to mock others so much and who it is you are following when you do this.

I think it's interesting to see the time period definition of mocking. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/mocking

MOCK'ING, participle present tense: Imitating in contempt; mimicking; ridiculing by mimicry; treating with sneers and scorn; defeating; deluding.

MOCK'ING, noun: Derision; insult.

[Mamabear]

Was really hoping to see no contention on this thread since a new guy started a conversation because he needs help.

[Godislove]

I'm so sorry as I do not mean to derail this thread but I came across this talk and would be interested in further discussion about it regarding the most recent developments and urges from the church leaders.
If someone would be willing to start a new thread about it, I would greatly appreciate it. For some reason my computer is not showing any option for me to present a new topic. The talk was found from this thread......I have pasted the talk below the thread link viewtopic.php?t=45433

The Power of God and the Power of Satan.
A Discourse by Elder Jedediah M. Grant, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, Feb. 19, 1854.
Reported By: G. D. Watt.

I have been pleased with the remarks of Elder Hyde this afternoon. I am myself more or less familiar with the doings of the Spirit Rappers, having had an opportunity of becoming acquainted with them when I was last in New York and Philadelphia; and I am satisfied now, and was then, that they are manifestations of spirits; and startling are the sentiments, developments, and doctrines they have made known. It has been treated as a bubble upon the wave that soon would burst asunder; but I am satis-fied the result of the manifestations of the spirits (wicked spirits) will be to combine their forces in as systematic an order as they are capable of, to successfully resist the Priesthood upon the earth.

I am aware that even some of the Latter-day Saints are slow to believe in relation to the power of Lucifer, the son of the morning, (Isa. 14:12-15) who was thrust from the heavens to the earth; and they have been slow to believe in relation to the spirits that are associated with him; but from the first revelations of the Almighty to brother Joseph Smith, not only revelations in relation to the deep things of the kingdom of God, and the high things of heaven, and the depths of hell, but revelations showing him the power of Lucifer, the opposite to good, that he might be aware of the strength of his opponent, and the opponent of the Almighty—I say, from perusing these revelations, I have always been specially impressed with the doctrine relating to the power of Satan, as well as with the doctrines relating to the power of God.

I have always felt that no Saint fully comprehends the power of Satan as well as God's Prophet; and again I have thought that no Saint could fully understand the power of God unless he learn the opposite. I am not myself acquainted with any happiness that I have not learned the opposite of. You may perhaps enjoy a great deal, the opposite of which you know nothing of, you may be constituted different to me, your feelings may be different, you may have learned to enjoy without first experiencing the opposite; but I may say with safety, nearly all the blessings I enjoy and highly prize are most appreciated after I have learned their opposite; and I am of opinion that all Saints sooner or later will have to learn the opposite to good, they will have to partake of the bitter in order to properly appreciate the sweet, they will have to be impressed with pain that they may appreciate pleasure.

In relation to spirits, for it seems to be the subject introduced today, I have this idea, that the Lord our God absolutely gave Lucifer a mission to this earth; I will call it a mission. You may think it strange that I believe so good a being as our Father in heaven would actually send such an odd missionary as Lucifer. You may call him a missionary, or anything else you please, but we learn he was thrust out of heaven, (D&C 29:36-37) the place where the Lord dwells, to this earth; and his mission, and the mission of his associates who were thrust down with him, and of those whom he is successful in turning away from God's children who have tabernacles, is to continue to oppose the Almighty, scatter His Church, wage war against His kingdom, and change as far as possible His government on the earth. He could take the Savior upon the pinnacle of the temple, and show him the kingdoms of this world, (Matt. 4:5-8) and could perform many wonderful works in the days of Jesus. When the Priesthood of God is upon the earth, then the priesthood of the devil may be seen operating, for he has got one. When the kingdom of God is on the earth, you may expect to see a special display or manifestation of the opposite to the Gospel of the kingdom, or of the Priesthood of God.

If you read the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, you read about the power of Satan upon the earth—the manifestation of wicked spirits. When was this special power of Satan more particularly made manifest? It has always been when the power of the holy Priesthood and the kingdom of God were upon the earth. In the days of Moses, in the days of the Patriarchs, in the days of the Prophets, and in the days of Jesus and his Apostles, and while his Church remained upon the earth, the opposite of the principles of heaven were specially made manifest, causing a lull in the public mind. The world is more or less controlled all the time by influences that Lucifer evidently is not opposed to; he has little objection to the present organization of human society, from the fact that everything passes along in the wake that agrees with his religion, and rather tends to forward his purposes.

Now some suppose if they can see a miracle, as they call it, that is, something beyond that which is ordinary with man, they are bound to believe; but I am of opinion that Lucifer and his associates can show as many miracles as the people desire to see; they can show as many as were exhibited in Egypt in the days of king Pharaoh. I believe Lucifer has just as much power to make lice now as ever he had, (Ex. 8:18) he has just as much ability to display his power in making a serpent to oppose a Moses as ever. (Ex. 7:11-12) Has he lost his power during the last two, three, or four thousand years? We do not believe he has. If, then, he possesses the same power as he once did, why is he not able in this dispensation to make manifestations corresponding to those in previous ones?

I wish to come down to our own day, for you know I am fond of rooting, grubbing, building, fencing, and doing the things needed right here at home. Let us then confine our remarks to this dispensation, when the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by an holy angel, clad in robes of light, who authorized him to sound the trump of the Gospel of peace, and receive the sacred records from the earth, and the Urim and Thummim, (JS—H 1:30-35) and who laid hands upon him and gave him the Holy Ghost, and authorized him to baptize for the remission of sins, (JS—H 1:68-72) and organize the kingdom of God on the earth. What do we see at this time? We see the manifestations of the power of Satan immediately after the revelations of the angel to Joseph. For instance, there were spirit mediums in Kirtland, when the Church was first organized there by brother Parley P. Pratt and others; but when Joseph went with the Priesthood, the devil had to leave, for he had learned the power of Lucifer; and Joseph organized the Church, established the Priesthood, and set everything right.

I might go on with a long routine of manifestations of the power of God, and of the power of the devil; but you who have come from the old country, and some of the first Elders that went over there—Presidents Young, Kimball, Hyde, and others, recollect manifestations of the spirits of the devil in that land. They attacked those brethren by hundreds and by thousands, and the spirits were actually visible. If you could call up brother Willard Snow and converse with him, I have no doubt that he would tell you he was attacked by them, and they overcame his body.

I am not surprised to see these manifestations increased upon the earth; but where is the anchor to the faith of the Saints? Where is the surety of the Saints against these manifestations? Inasmuch as the world would not listen to the Prophet Joseph, and receive the word of God through him, I look for the Lord to fulfil His word, and send them strong delusion, inasmuch as they believe not the truth, and will permit them now to believe a lie, that all who have pleasure in unrighteousness (D&C 56:15) may be damned. (2 Thes. 2:11-12) I anticipate seeing strong delusion among the wicked in the day in which we live, but where is the anchor for the faith of the Saints? I will tell you where mine is.

When Joseph Smith was alive, his declaration to me was as the voice of Almighty God. Why? Because he had the Priesthood of God on the earth; the Priesthood that is without father, without mother, without beginning of days or end of years, (D&C 84:17; Heb. 7:3) which is God's authority, the eternal power and right of the government of God upon the earth. I was subject to that government in the days of Joseph. Men used to talk on this wise—“But would you believe in the Prophet if he should demand all your property?” Lucifer would suggest this idea to them. “No,” says another, “I would not.” “Suppose he should come to you, and tell you, you must sell your farm in the east, and go to Kirtland, and consecrate your property to the Lord, would you do it?” “No,” answers his neighbor, “the Lord has no use for my property, I would not do it.” “Well,” says one, “do you think Joseph is right to dictate in temporal matters?” “No.” There were quite a majority, I believe, in the days of Joseph, who believed he had no right to dictate in temporal matters, in farms, houses, merchandise, gold, silver, &c.; and they were tried on various points.

When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right and on the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel. Says one brother to another, “Joseph says all covenants are done away, and none are binding but the new covenants; now (D&C 22:1) suppose Joseph should come and say he wanted your wife, what would you say to that?” “I would tell him to go to hell.” This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church.

If you maintain the fact that the Priesthood of God is upon the earth, and God's representatives are upon the earth, the mouthpiece of Jehovah, the head of the kingdom of God upon earth, and the will of God is done upon earth as it is in heaven, (Luke 11:2; Matt. 6:10) it follows that the government of God is upon the earth. I allude to the Church which it dictates; and then to the whole earth which it will dictate. Satan may succeed for a season to curtail the extent of this government, and the free working of its machinery, but if the Lord Almighty has organized a government upon the earth, and has committed the keys and Priesthood of it to His Prophet, that Prophet holds jurisdiction over the earth, the same as Adam did in the beginning. And righteous men in every dispensation since the creation, if they had any keys, had the keys of the kingdom of God; and they extended over this wide world wherever God had a people and a government; and just as far as the Priesthood exercised its authority, just so far the rule of the Almighty reached.

If Joseph had a right to dictate me in relation to salvation, in relation to a hereafter, he had a right to dictate me in relation to all my earthly affairs, in relation to the treasures of the earth, and in relation to the earth itself. He had a right to dictate in relation to the cities of the earth, to the natives of the earth, and in relation to everything on land and on sea. That is what he had a right to do, if he had any right at all. If he did not have that right, he did not have the Priesthood of God, he did not have the endless Priesthood that emanates from an eternal being. A Priesthood that is clipped, and lacks length, is not the Priesthood of God; if it lacks depth, it is not the Priesthood of God; for the Priesthood in ancient times extended over the wide world, and coped with the universe, and had a right to govern and control the inhabitants thereof, to regulate them, give them laws, and execute those laws. That power looked like the Priesthood of God. This same Priesthood has been given to Joseph Smith, and has been handed down to his successors.

I do not care how many devils rap, it is no trouble to me. I say, rap away, and give as many revelations as you please, whether you are good spirits or bad ones, it does not trouble my cranium. Rap away, for I trust in the anchor of my soul that is sure and steadfast, (Ether 12:4) in the Priesthood of God upon the earth.

What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? He would say, “Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God.” Or if he came and said, “I want your wife?” “O yes,” he would say, “here she is, there are plenty more.”

There is another main thread connected with this, that I have not brought out. You know in fishing with the hook and line, if you draw out suddenly on the line when you have got a large trout, you may break your line; you must therefore angle a little, and manage your prize carefully. I would ask you if Jehovah has not in all ages tried His people by the power of Lucifer and his associates; and on the other hand, has He not tried them and proved them by His Prophets? Did the Lord actually want Abraham to kill Isaac? Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not, but in that thing was the grand thread of the Priesthood developed. The grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, “I want your gold and silver, or your wives,” I should say, “Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got.” A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters.

I am talking now of the present day. There was a time when we could be tried pretty severely upon these points, but I now could pick you out hundreds of men that cannot be tried in this way, but they will hand over everything they possess. They understand the nature of such doctrines, and the object of such requirements. They know it is to prove the people, both men and women, and to develop what they will do. How can the Priesthood judge the people, if it does not prove them?

If ever you are brought into the presence of God, and exalted to a seat in His celestial kingdom, it will be by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, therefore you have got to be proved, not only by being tempted by the devil, but the Priesthood will try you—it will try you to the core. If one thing won't try you, something else will be adopted, until you are like the passive clay in the hands of the Potter. (Jer. 18:6) If the Lord our God does not see fit to let the devil loose upon you, and mob you, He will employ some other means to try you as in a crucible, to prove you as gold is tried seven times in the furnace.

The world philosophizes about the “Mormons,” about their leaders, and the life they are living. There are a thousand conjectures among them in relation to the “Mormons.” The grand secret is told in a few words; the fact is, the Almighty God has spoken from the heavens, sent heavenly messengers, and organized His Church, restored the Holy Priesthood, established His government on the earth, and exerted his power to extend it, and send forth His word. And that Priesthood understands the principles and motives by which men are actuated, and it understands the workings of the devil on the earth; that Priesthood knows how to govern, when to strike, and when not to strike.

Some things in this Church start up at times, that you would think the whole Church would be rent asunder, like the clans of Scotland. Clanism, (Ps. 12:6) and “Mormonism” are like that [putting his fingers across]; “Mormonism” is one, it is governed by one head, one President, and that head representing God on earth. If Joseph Smith held the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, of the Apostleship, does not his successor possess the same? Does he not have a right to give laws, to instruct, to control and rule the people of God?

I might still go on, and explain to your understandings exactly what I mean by rule. If this Priesthood is upon the earth, and you are controlled thereby, and listen to its counsels, you will be united as one people. I know the time was that many of this people believed that if a man was adopted here and there, one man would hold this way, and another that; but the fact is, in the kingdom and Church of the Lord they are all in one pile. I do not care how many of you have been adopted here or there; that is the doctrine to me.

Let the devils rap, then, and let them talk, and mutter, and have their mediums; what do I care, so long as the Priesthood is upon the earth, and the Apostleship is upon the earth, and the government of God, and the light and influence of the Holy Ghost, are upon the earth? Can they shake the Saints? No. But let a man lose the Spirit of God, and depart from this Church, and from the men that hold the Priesthood of God on the earth, and I have no doubt that Lucifer will reveal a great many truths to him, and teach and advocate principles and sentiments that will agree with doctrines of this Church. And they will even imitate Joseph Smith's handwriting, and the handwriting of brother Hyrum, of Bishop Partridge, and of Bishop Whitney, and others; and they will give you flaming revelations, and the light they emit will blaze like a comet.

Now Lucifer has philosophy enough and religion enough to suffer his agents to run along with the truth hand in hand, and make himself appear like an angel of light, (2 Cor. 11:14) and teach hundreds of true principles, if he can only thereby get you to swallow one item of false doctrine. But the grand story is, the devil may rage as long as he pleases, and use all the cunning and craft that he may, yet he never can overreach those who hold the keys of the Priesthood, nor succeed in deceiving them. This Joseph taught the people, but they were slow to believe. But now the energies of the people move as one man; and if they want to build a Temple, they can build it, and whatever they want to accomplish they can do.

The Priesthood is a power we should respect, reverence, and obey, no matter in whose hands it is. Let Lucifer mix in truths with error, and work great signs and wonders to deceive the very elect, but it is not possible. Why? Because they have learned the Priesthood, and they possess the power thereof that cannot be shaken. Let the Rappers go ahead, then, for it is not possible for them to deceive the elect of God; and let the witch of Endor, (1 Sam. 28:7) and all other witches and wizards, with the prince and power of the air (Eph. 2:2) at their head, do their best, if we keep the commandments of God we shall continually soar far above their power and influence.

I want to have nothing to do with Satan. I desire not to shake hands with him, nor to do anything that will bring me in contact with him, for he is powerful, and if he once gets you in his grasp and shakes you, you will think you are less than a grasshopper. Let us rally round the standard of God, and when we are in the circle of truth, then let the devil and the enemies of the Church of God fire their loudest guns, and wage their war, and marshal their strength, yet, armed with the armor of righteousness, (Matt. 24:24) clothed with the Priesthood and generalship of the Almighty, we shall successfully resist, and triumphantly conquer Satan and all his allied forces of the earth and hell. (Rev. 20:1-3) They will then find out whether Joseph had a right to rule this earth by the power of the Priesthood. They will then find out that the “Mormons,” notwithstanding their curious bumps, for they have got some curious bumps, are authorized to preach the Gospel of God, gather Israel, build up Zion, bind Lucifer with a chain, and establish the reign of peace on earth.

My prayer is that the Saints may understand that they are safe as long as they listen to the Priesthood authorized of heaven, are united in one, and not divided into clans, but become one great clan, under one head. Then let all the clanism of the world rally against us, and we are as firm as the rock of ages, that supports the throne of Jehovah.

May God bless you with the truth as it is in Himself, and save you in His kingdom, through Jesus Christ. Amen.
Top

[John Tavner]

I'll give some it isn't just for the church though, it is found in the church - Mocking for not watching TV or Movies, or listening to modern music, not playing video games, mocking for leaving a movie, or for walking away from something uncomfortable to them and the opposite - mocking because they walked away, mocking naivety, mocking someone because they wear church clothing all sunday, mocking someone because they don't wear church clothing all sunday, Mocking someone because they don't go to church, mocking someone because they do go to church, mocking someone for being a Peter Priesthood, or mocking somone for not being a "peter priesthood" or a MOlly mormon etc... Mocking someone because they like the Bible more than the BoM or because they like the BoM more than the Book of Mormon, Mocking someone for not drinking caffeine, mocking someone because they do drink caffeine, mocking because of not eating meat, mocking because they do eat meat, mocking because they don't eat sugar, mocking because they do eat sugar, mocking because someone doesn't have nice clothes, mocking because they do have nice clothes, mocking because of the car they drive or the house they live in, mocking them because of their jobs, mocking somoene because they are awkward. The list goes on. You might say "those aren't really following the LOrd type of htings' and I'll reply "how do you know, why don't we let them follow their conscience and not mock them if they are sincerely trying to seek Him and "not watch TV" if that helps them"

We are terrible Christians... in fact most people who claim to be Christian are terrible Christians, which is why God said "upon my house it will begin - first among those who claim to bear my name." Perhaps it would be good for us to all read Alma 5, repent and refocus on the Lord rather than looking around at everyone around us and deriding them because of all the straws in their eyes when we have logs in our own eyes. We all need to turn to God more (repent) we all need to forgive more and most of all we all need to start sharing the Glory of hte the Lord more (glory means His presence) If we aren't sharing His presence and His weight, we aren't really bearing His name.

Do you know what it means to mock?

The member aren't perfect and there are lots of tares doing all sorts of wicked things, including mocking those who are trying to do what's right. But by and large the true believing members of the church are not mocking people for trying to follow the straight and narrow path. Reluctant Watchman's charge of the church being the great and spacious building is a ridiculous charge to make.

When you ask a question like "do you know what it means to mock?", It is condescending. It is automatically setting yourself up as better than me. It's as if you think I don't know what "To Mock" means.

Condescending: : showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others
Superior: : affecting or assuming an air of superiority : supercilious
Superlicious: : coolly and patronizingly haughty
Haughty: : blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior
Disdain: : a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior

Here I'll use the dictionary to show how what I've listed out are examples of mocking: To Mock : to treat with contempt or ridicule

Contempt: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises

Despise: : to look down on with disrespect or aversion despised the weak
2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful

Disrespect: : low regard or esteem for someone or something : lack of respect

Ridicule: the act of ridiculing: to make fun of

Derision: : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

Scorn: : open dislike and disrespect or mockery often mixed with indignation
2 : an expression of contempt or derision

Finally I never said the members were perfect. I said most who claim to be Christians are terrible Christians - why? Because they have "haughty" necks - what does Haughty mean, I will requote it: blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior We are constantly seeking our own rather than His own. We seek our own life and not His.
. We can not help but parade around our beliefs without being haughty. We are constantly patting ourselves on the back for being a part of the "one true church" If ther eare members in the church and thye don't follow our ways we call them "tares" again implying that we are the wheat and therefore we are superior, that they are not "worthy." This isn't just among the LDS it is everywhere, but it is very prominent in our church. Like I said, we need to check our selves and repent.

I don't consider any of the things you mentioned to be examples of members of the Lord's church mocking those who are trying to follow the straight and narrow path. So if you think what you described is mocking, I don't think you know what it means to mock someone. Which is why I asked if you know what it means.

There's also a difference between being haughty and mocking people.

You're honestly going to say that right after I literally listed out all the definitions?

You in Good conscience can't see someone making fun of someone else because they wear different clothes on sunday as not mocking them? Or mocking somoene as "peter preisthood" or as a "jack mormon." Or making fun of them because they don't watch TV? Especially if where those members are at, it is what they believe they need to do to live authentically before the LOrd? Or running away from someone in the hall and later joking about it with someone else because that person is "awkward" or "smells?

[Gadianton Slayer]

Do you know what it means to mock?

The member aren't perfect and there are lots of tares doing all sorts of wicked things, including mocking those who are trying to do what's right. But by and large the true believing members of the church are not mocking people for trying to follow the straight and narrow path. Reluctant Watchman's charge of the church being the great and spacious building is a ridiculous charge to make.

When you ask a question like "do you know what it means to mock?", It is condescending. It is automatically setting yourself up as better than me. It's as if you think I don't know what "To Mock" means.

Condescending: : showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others
Superior: : affecting or assuming an air of superiority : supercilious
Superlicious: : coolly and patronizingly haughty
Haughty: : blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior
Disdain: : a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior

Here I'll use the dictionary to show how what I've listed out are examples of mocking: To Mock : to treat with contempt or ridicule

Contempt: the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises

Despise: : to look down on with disrespect or aversion despised the weak
2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful

Disrespect: : low regard or esteem for someone or something : lack of respect

Ridicule: the act of ridiculing: to make fun of

Derision: : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt

Scorn: : open dislike and disrespect or mockery often mixed with indignation
2 : an expression of contempt or derision

Finally I never said the members were perfect. I said most who claim to be Christians are terrible Christians - why? Because they have "haughty" necks - what does Haughty mean, I will requote it: blatantly and disdainfully proud : having or showing an attitude of superiority and contempt for people or things perceived to be inferior We are constantly seeking our own rather than His own. We seek our own life and not His.
. We can not help but parade around our beliefs without being haughty. We are constantly patting ourselves on the back for being a part of the "one true church" If ther eare members in the church and thye don't follow our ways we call them "tares" again implying that we are the wheat and therefore we are superior, that they are not "worthy." This isn't just among the LDS it is everywhere, but it is very prominent in our church. Like I said, we need to check our selves and repent.

I don't consider any of the things you mentioned to be examples of members of the Lord's church mocking those who are trying to follow the straight and narrow path. So if you think what you described is mocking, I don't think you know what it means to mock someone. Which is why I asked if you know what it means.

There's also a difference between being haughty and mocking people.

You're honestly going to say that right after I literally listed out all the definitions?

You in Good conscience can't see someone making fun of someone else because they wear different clothes on sunday as not mocking them? Or mocking somoene as "peter preisthood" or as a "jack mormon." Or making fun of them because they don't watch TV? Especially if where those members are at, it is what they believe they need to do to live authentically before the LOrd? Or running away from someone in the hall and later joking about it with someone else because that person is "awkward" or "smells?

If 'believing' members are actively mocking others... then they could possibly be those in the spacious building. Now, we absolutely can't have that, can we? Once people establish certain core beliefs and are unwilling to change them, nothing else matters. It's the domino effect...

"The 'church' is true, so B, C, and D are also true, and anything that contradicts is wrong because I know the church is true."

Holland gave a talk using this logic, saying that because the BoM is true that Joseph was a prophet aaaaand all the way to the current leaders. Dominos.