My parents are driving me from the faith I once loved.

[randomperson101]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

[Fred]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

You probably do not need to over think it. You read the Book of Mormon and believe that it is true. The book is more complex than a farm boy could write. There is nothing that leads you away from Christ. It is a good book. Together with the Bible, a person could study for a hundred years and never understand it all. Your body has a built-in truth meter. After you read for a while, you see things that are not spelled out, but they are there anyway. They add to your understanding.

People lie, cheat, and steal. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes on accident. When you make a serious attempt to understand the scriptures and to live a life that God approves of, your ability to discern truth increases. One of the hazards of digging too deep, is that you can get side tracked on a tangent, that may have no actual significance, even though it seems to.

We have all been around people that are highly spiritual. We have also been around people that are evil. What would Jesus do? can be helpful to think about.

How many preachers are sure they have it right, but do not? Often, they have found some truth, but overlook other truth. One must seek truth, wherever it is.

Once your foundation of truth is established, you can measure possible truths against what you already know to be true. You can not trust anyone's opinion just because they have man made credentials. Every reporter on earth lies if s/he says we are experiencing a pandemic. A total lie. No truth to it whatsoever. Every doctor on earth lies if s/he says that Ivermectin does not stop covid. Any person that says masks are effective in stopping covid is a liar. Any person that says the covid shots are either safe or effective is a liar. It is not even possible that I am wrong on this.

So when a person lies to you, and you know for a fact it is a lie, even if they tell you God told them to lie, you have to analyze their motives. There sure are a lot of incredibly stupid parents out there. Being a parent does not make one right. There sure are a lot of evil preachers that do evil on purpose in order to deceive. Being a preacher does not make one correct.

So, when a person of supposed authority lies to you, and it is an obvious lie, an easily proved lie, and wants you to trust him in his lie based on his reputation, like RMN calling satan's juice a godsend, then you know he is a liar, that he does NOT represent God, that his purpose is deception, then you know he is a disciple of satan and not God. Once you know this, you have no need to ever believe a single thing he says. Once a person is a proven liar, doing so on purpose with the intent to deceive, remove yourself from their influence, no matter who they are.

Here is the thing about the scriptures. They can be your rock. Because even if there is a mistake, it is still the best way to live. It is the correct way to believe, and to live, and to determine truth. So when a person claims to be a prophet, yet tells you something completely contrary to the scriptures, you need not waste any time with the prick. God is not going to punish you for following His word and living according to it.

So then, all you have to do is discard the rubbish that people attempt to force on you. If a doctor tells you to get a shot so your neighbor won't get sick, you can instantly know for certain that he is an evil liar that intends to do you harm. Same thing if he claims to be a prophet instead of a doctor. Just say "It is unfortunate that you are so incredibly stupid. Fortunately, I am not. Therefore, never contact me again for as long as you live. I have no need of liars in my life."

Then it is a walk in the park. You can surround yourself with good people or bad people. Success is a choice. If someone tells you that you have to risk your life and get a shot with no known benefit, just say no and be glad that you are not that stupid. Money is far too easy to earn to work for someone that would just as soon kill you.

Fear not!

[Niemand]

First things first, none of the shots available in the west are vaccines - they are either mRNA injections or adenoviruses. They are not traditional vaccines, and anyone who tries to claim they are will have to do some serious mental gymnastics to claim it. When you get your malaria shot, that will be a vaccination, not your Covid, because it works on an entirely different technology.

Personally I don't think Brigham Young had Joseph Smith killed. There is a whole discussion on that matter here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=63486

Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

I was having this discussion on Monday with a Christian (non-LDS) friend. Not so much the "why do bad things happen to good people" thing, but why do good things happen to bad people? How can a gangster sit in a nice house with his family while he and/or his goons have murdered people? I said that in many cases, they won't be entirely happy, they'll always be watching their backs or their children, or listening for the sound of that breaking window at night... and maybe in a few cases they will feel some internal guilt for what they have done.

The Catholic church is a strange one. Its most valuable role has been to bring in some beautiful art and music into this world. Not to mention some charity work - certain Catholics like Father Damien who helped the lepers in Molokai*, will receive a crown of glory for what they did in life, because they are martyrs to their cause. But whatever its history of brutality, or its non-Christian doctrines, there are sincere Christians in it. So like the LDS, there is Christianity in it, if you know where to look. As we have discussed elsewhere some Catholic leaders (but not the Pope) have called out the current situation as Satanic or Satanically exploited.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien

Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?
... So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

The trouble is that we go all in or all out in the church. You will have heard truth at church and that includes from the Apostles and GAs. Pres. Nelson is way off beam with this vaccine, and he likes to turn everything upside down, but he has preached the gospel, or at least parts of it in the past.

There are other things Pres. Nelson has done which I don't like, but he has made some correct decisions and statements too. I think focussing on Christ is a good thing, for example, I just don't agree with ditching the Mormon label, especially since no one outside the church has... and we just sound like woke idiots when we protest the name.

[Mamabear]

I’m sorry you are feeling down. I feel the same way at times. I started studying a lot over the summer and asking questions in prayer that I never thought I would ask. Before that point, I kept feeling God tell me to quit trusting in the arm of the flesh. Repeatedly. There were odd things that happened in our ward. Some people acted like if you didn’t wear a mask you would cause death. Anyway, as I searched for truth and asked, it came. It’s been a few months. My eyes have been opened to things I never knew before.
I know that the gospel is still true. The work of men is frustrated but not the work of God. He is there for us 100%. He never turns me down. He listens. He loves. I’ve never had a relationship like this with Him. I’m relying on Him more than I ever have before. In a way, I’m thankful for covid and the way the church has reacted. It drove me to my knees. It is a silver lining for me.
It hasn’t been easy though because I feel this process is a roller coaster. On the one hand I mourn the church which I thought I knew, and on the other hand I rejoice in truth, knowledge, and the goodness of God. Truth is coming to people who are searching in all different ways. There is always hope because of Him. He will help all who come unto Him.
I hope you find peace on your journey and know it’s all going to work out in the end. Take care.

[MikeMaillet]

I'm a convert to the church and joined at the age of 21, about one year after I was married. My wife joined a few months later and I had the privilege of baptizing my wife. I'll be 64 in a few days and have always appreciated my membership in the church, a church I joined because of a powerful and unique experience. I had met the missionaries at the prompting of my wife. She had had some positive experiences with Mormons and wanted to know more. I wasn't keen on the idea but agreed to have missionaries come over. I found the first discussion to be quite pleasant and had no idea who Joseph Smith was and had never heard of the Book of Mormon. I was left with a pamphlet entitled, "The Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith" and a copy of the Book of Mormon. The other thing they left was a powerful spirit that was palpable. I read that pamphlet at least a dozen times before their next visit. There was just "something" about this whole fascinating story. During the second discussion, Elder Thurgood stopped in mid-sentence and said that he could feel the spirit very strongly at the moment. I felt tears come to my eyes and was overwhelmed with what I can only describe as a very powerful, spiritual experience. This was something my spirit felt, not my body. God spoke to me that night and I understood then that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet.

Polygamy is a divisive topic amongst us LDS. Casual digging into the topic will yield mostly evidence pointing towards Joseph having multiple wives. Further digging will get you to the Pryces. They are a husband and wife team who have written a book that shows much evidence to back up the claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy. Further digging will send you down a rabbit hole of minutiae where you will be wasting your time looking for a smoking gun. There is none. There is as much credible evidence for one side as for the other and if I was a judge in a court of law, I would throw the case out for lack of convincing evidence. I believe that Joseph never practiced polygamy.

Another fork in the road for many LDS is Brigham Young. Luckily, I never spent much time reading anything he wrote or spoke because they lead to too many rabbit holes. Some will argue that his theories are important... For me, he is a latter day version of King Noah in the Book of Mormon.

I seem to have been blessed with a love of truth and beauty and seem to have a good balance between my left and right brain (not sure if there's any truth to this left/right brain stuff). My left side says the following:

1) I have received a powerful testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon
2) In the Book of Mormon, God commands us to study the book of Isaiah because Isaiah's words are great.
3) I conclude that there is a reason for God to command people in the latter days to study the words of an OT Prophet.
4) I go and open up Isaiah and get royally confused.
5) Why would I be led here if this book is so confusing.
6) I ask for help and receive it. https://www.isaiahexplained.com

The book of Isaiah is like a cold glass of water in the face and for me, a much needed one. Once one begin's to unlock Isaiah one gets a much better appreciation for the Book of Mormon. Once we understand that we LDS have rejected the fullness of the gospel (the United Order was dissolved in 1832) we also understand that, having violated the covenant (the Book of Mormon), we must also now incur the promised covenant curses, unless we repent and return to the idea that on the promised land there shall be no poor and that everything shall be held in common. It is painfully obvious that we have strayed a tad from that path. 1, 2, 3, let's go shopping, from the mouth of our Prophet. At this point, next!

For me, Joseph Smith was the Prophet for our generation and after that we witness the building of a babylonian church with all its wealth and earthly treasures. The trek out west was not a test of faith for the Saints but rather, a punishment for having violated the covenant and rejecting their Prophet as well as the Book of Mormon. We live on covenanted land, a land of promise wherein good things happen to people who live the covenant. This was not marching to Zion as many would like to believe. A few good and wise men have come our way to warn us, such as Ezra Taft Benson. He railed on the Saints for not taking the Book of Mormon seriously and warned of the dire consequences. Most LDS considered him a crank.

You have so little time before conditions get very bad. Go and study Isaiah and you will understand much of what is happening to you and why. For me, it's always about the WHY! If I understand why things are the way they are, then I can react accordingly and can be quite analytical and cold. If the church has become corrupted and it has, then it is what it is.

I spend much time worrying about the next few years because I understand what is going on and I believe the scriptures to be true. When "the system" collapses, people will get angry and will be inclined to fight back just like the Nephites did. The problem is that we are being punished by God for our bad behaviour. We should be correcting our behaviour rather than look for ways to resist.

I pray every day that I will better understand the scriptures and that I will be able to discern truth from error. I also pray that I will be able to endure my challenges without getting angry, understanding that this is God's will for me. I pray also that I will be saved from this babylonian dystopia and that I will not be left to spend 1,000 years (our years or God's?) in hell only to be resurrected to some base kingdom. I can't change what is about to happen but understanding why these things are so will give me strength and point me towards the promised Elijah.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

PS: One can go crazy thinking about these things and having experienced deep depression in the past, I take steps to make sure I never go back there. Last year I decided to study calculus and found that when I was solving these types of problems my brain was totally detached from the world for a brief moment. This was better than taking a nap. This year I'm learning how to play drums. I've been able to fix my bad timing for my weak hand (playing behind the beat) and now I'm learning how to syncopate with my right foot whilst playing 16th notes on the high hat; Baddam Psh!

[BuriedTartaria]

Join us in the "it doesn't need to be all or nothing" movement. The Book of Mormon doesn't need the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's message to be true in order for it to be true.


The possibility of apostasy from truth is ALWAYS present. As the Book of Mormon illustrates. There was an apostasy among the Nephites after their Zion-like community Christ set up after his resurrection. There will be an apostasy after Christ's Millennial Reign. There was an apostasy after the truths Christ established during his mortal ministry.

It is unscriptural to believe Christ has set up a church that can never be led astray and that it's done by being led by 15 leaders who say they are prophets, seers and revelators and are devoid of any real prophesying, seering and revelating and have been devoid of it since Joseph

[LDS Watchman]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I was wondering if a particular individual would chime in on this.

Follow the Spirit above all else. If that leads you to stay in the church, do it. It it takes you out, do it. So long as your trust is in God you will be fine.

• ”Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (2 Nephi 28:31)

[TrueFaith]

The Beast System will deceive many. Most probably won't even know they're in it. I think there is a difference between being in the System and declaring allegiance to it. The latter will burn for it, but naive will help perpetuate it even unwittingly.

The broader Beast System is the collective concept of shared morality, shared salvation and shared safety. The system which Satan introduced during the War in Heaven. It is also described in the Parable of the Ten Virgins. It is those who believe they can steal from others to fill their own lamps.

If you believe it is your responsibility to keep another person safe (from disease, racism, sexism, wealth, etc) you have signed onto the Mark of the Beast system. It's that simple.

God's way, on the other hand, is individualism, personal liberty, and personal responsibility.

So ask yourself which camp you fall into. Shared guilt, or personal responsibility.

[OPMissionary]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

You've got it backwards. Honor thy Father and thy mother is a commandment. What we're not supposed to trust is the am of flesh. The first presidency showed their true loyalties when they told us to trust the government. Nowhere is it written that the church cannot lead the people astray. That's always been false doctrine.

[LDS Watchman]

Trust in the Holy Ghost and in the word of God in the scriptures and by the mouth of Joseph Smith.

If a "spirit" tells you something that contradicts these things, then this "spirit" is a false one.

[LDS Watchman]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

You've got it backwards. Honor thy Father and thy mother is a commandment. What we're not supposed to trust is the am of flesh. The first presidency showed their true loyalties when they told us to trust the government. Nowhere is it written that the church cannot lead the people astray. That's always been false doctrine.

Parents can and do lead their children astray. Jesus said to leave them behind for his sake if necessary.

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

[OPMissionary]

The gospel was such a simple, elegant and beautiful thing to me. Christ came to earth, established His church, taught principles and doctrines that will lead us to a path of happiness both in this life and the next. People rejected him, he died for our sins to pay the price that we couldn't. Joseph Smith came and reorganized His church with prophets apostles, evangelists, etc... to lead and guide us. If we repent, are baptized, and endure to end (heed to the teaching of prophets both modern and old), we will be saved. Simple. Obviously it sounds simple, but it's not an easy feat in this life, and we've all stumbled, but we can repent and get back on the correct path.

Now, I came back from my mission 1.5 years ago now. I came home early because of Covid-19. My parents had been studying a lot while I was gone, and nowadays I come to find out that those simple things I was taught are a lot more complex and or completely false.

To start off. The vaccine has been a huge discussion in our household. I still haven't been vaccinated, but with mandates on the rise, and what I feel is a life to live with jobs, college, travel, etc... I may be too worldly or something, but I've liked the life I've lived, and I hate the feeling of not doing what I love to do in life... I feel trapped in a sense. I've never been a partier or anything, I just wanna work.

On one hand, the vaccine to me seems like an okay thing. I had to get like 5 vaccinations to travel to my mission... I never got sick on my mission. On the other hand though, I'm learning that the vaccine is being tested on fetal cells from an aborted baby from 40 years ago (which personally I hate, there has to be a better way to get those cells for testing) and that the vaccine is the mark of the beast. Which doctrinally I disagree on. I believe the mark of the beast, a mark placed on the hand and forehead, to be a direct callback to the SHEMA, which is a prayer of allegiance to God... whereas the mark of the beast would be essentially the anti-Shema, something that declares allegiance to the devil. Which personally I don't believe those who are taking the vaccine are declaring allegiance to the devil. Now I won't discredit the fact that there's a lot of places closing and potentially there could be a time when you couldn't buy or sell without a vaccine, which could tie to being the mark of the beast, but I've yet to see this manifest completely... maybe in terms of travel and now with finding jobs... but can anyone explain to me why taking a vaccine would be declaring allegiance to the devil if my thoughts and actions are essentially the same before and after taking the vaccine?

Now this brings me onto the next conflict in my family. The prophets and apostles of these latter days are false. Now this doubt of course came about in our family once the prophet declared the vaccine to be safe & effective... but now we've gone down a rabbit hole of sorts now learning that Brigham Young potentially killed Joseph Smith in order for polygamy to stay around & to take control of the church. Like, what?! I can't wrap my mind around this logic yet. For starters, what about the witness statements attesting to the fact that liberty jail had been raided and non-lds people attested to that fact (https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1262-home). My question in this case has been, what did Brigham Young have to gain? Also, if this is the case, why has the church been so prosperous... why has the Lord allowed such a church, that would kill His prophet to remain & thrive on earth. One could argue about the Catholic Church, and how it has prospered... so I don't know.

This also brings up, what doctrines in the church are true or false at this point. The church has had control of pretty much every conceivable document since the death of Joseph Smith... if they wanted to change something, they could and we'd pretty much be none the wiser. Are temple ordinances even real? Where are the falsities there? Why do I feel the spirit at church or in the Temple if it was supposedly built by false teachers?

I taught a lot of people on my mission, and those who came to church, always felt a difference from other churches.

Nowadays my parents are basically saying to rely on themselves to be their own prophets... which sure, I believe is partly true. But also, isn't this how the confusion of doctrines was started in the first place? Some people say something here, others have a different opinion there... eventually it leads to chaos, just like what Joseph Smith was facing in his day.

The other question here is, all of the prophets and apostles I feel have nothing to gain. Most of them made a ton of money before they were apostles, and I believe the job of an apostle to be pretty hectic. They are each responsible for parts of the earth, to make sure the missions are running well, the stakes are thriving, that the church is growing... to what gain would they have to lie until their grave about the fact that they're apostles and prophets? Sure, we've been warned about false teachers in these last days, and I firmly believe that we should pray about anything the prophets and apostles say... but for the most part of my life, it's always been confirmations that the words they speak are true. So, now that they talk about a vaccine, everything they've said in the past is discredited?

I could keep going on and on here about just how confused I am about this all. In the end, I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the one that can change our thoughts and actions. He's the only to which salvation comes. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints to be His church on earth... is it perfect? No. Are the people in it perfect? No. But I believe the teachings and gospel principles that it has taught me throughout my life to have completely made me into the man I am today. I've been atheist in the past... it all just seems much simpler, but it never brought me joy. Now I see my parents discrediting and taking the testimony of things that brought me joy in my life... and it just hurts.

Any thoughts would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I'm just here to learn. Thanks!

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

You've got it backwards. Honor thy Father and thy mother is a commandment. What we're not supposed to trust is the am of flesh. The first presidency showed their true loyalties when they told us to trust the government. Nowhere is it written that the church cannot lead the people astray. That's always been false doctrine.

Parents can and do lead their children astray. Jesus said to leave them behind for his sake if necessary.

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Again, nothing says that the church can't fall. People have their agency, even apostles. What it does say is that the very elect will be decieved, that the eye watching over you must be plucked out. Maybe stop trusting in man and listen to the Holy Ghost on these matters, who clearly has warmed against the evils and secret combinations of this world.

[LDS Watchman]

Don't listen to your parents. They are letting a controversial, highly politicized, vaccine destroy their testimonies. Don't let them drag you down with them. The rabbit hole you are going down is one of the forbidden paths mentioned in the vision of the tree of life. Get out of there as fast as you can.

Your simple testimony is true. Hold fast to the iron rod and don't listen to the voices on the internet who would have you questions what you know to be true.

You've got it backwards. Honor thy Father and thy mother is a commandment. What we're not supposed to trust is the am of flesh. The first presidency showed their true loyalties when they told us to trust the government. Nowhere is it written that the church cannot lead the people astray. That's always been false doctrine.

Parents can and do lead their children astray. Jesus said to leave them behind for his sake if necessary.

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Again, nothing says that the church can't fall. People have their agency, even apostles. What it does say is that the very elect will be decieved, that the eye watching over you must be plucked out. Maybe stop trusting in man and listen to the Holy Ghost on these matters, who clearly has warmed against the evils and secret combinations of this world.

I believe what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say, which is that the church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and won't fail.

[OPMissionary]

You've got it backwards. Honor thy Father and thy mother is a commandment. What we're not supposed to trust is the am of flesh. The first presidency showed their true loyalties when they told us to trust the government. Nowhere is it written that the church cannot lead the people astray. That's always been false doctrine.

Parents can and do lead their children astray. Jesus said to leave them behind for his sake if necessary.

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Again, nothing says that the church can't fall. People have their agency, even apostles. What it does say is that the very elect will be decieved, that the eye watching over you must be plucked out. Maybe stop trusting in man and listen to the Holy Ghost on these matters, who clearly has warmed against the evils and secret combinations of this world.

I believe what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say, which is that the church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and won't fail.

The scriptures don't conflate a worldly church with the Kingdom of God, and neither did Joseph Smith. Such a thing is tantamount to worshipping mammon. You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

[John Tavner]

John 18:36 36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Modern day us: His Kingdom is of this world. This is wrong.

The BoM explains This is why there are save 2 churches only - the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the Devil - it is spiritual, not physical, but what we do in the physical can represent which Kingdom we belong to.

So again, His kingdom isn't physical... but is spiritual- maybe it is less about an organization and more about hte heart. 1 Samuel 16:7 7But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or height, for I have rejected him; the LORD does not see as man does. For man sees the outward appearance, but the LORD sees the heart.”

Matt 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

It isn't about an organization. It never was - though organizations can be good. It is about our heart and worshiping in spirit and truth. John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Cor: 3 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. 15And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Cor 4: 1Therefore, since God in His mercy has given us this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

Perhaps more of us are on the side of the devil than we would like to admit - both in the the organization some call "true" and outside the organization. Perhaps there are more that are a part of the Kingdom of God that we don't expect. Matt 22: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who made a wedding feast for his son. 3 He sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they wouldn’t come. 4 Again he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who were invited, “Look, I’ve prepared my meal. My oxen and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast!”’

5 “But paying no attention, they went away, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest grabbed his servants, humiliated them, and killed them. 7 Now the king became furious! Sending his troops, he destroyed those murderers and set fire to their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 So go into the highways and byways, and invite everyone you find to the wedding feast.’ 10 And those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look over the guests, he saw a man there who wasn’t dressed in wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he said to him, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was silent. 13 Then the king said to his servants, ‘Tie him up hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[Vision]

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Actually that is incorrect, the priesthood was restored to the earth and will never be taken from it again. The priesthood does not need a church, the church needs the priesthood.

[JohnnyL]

randomperson101:

You're pretty much right on with YOUR thoughts, feelings, and testimony. Stick with them.

Remember that the word remember is very important and often used in the Book of Mormon. There is a reason for that, especially in these latter days.

When Nephi said, "trusting in the arm of flesh" he did not mean prophets--lol, his father was one, and he was one. He meant TRUSTING IN HIMSELF. This is what many are doing right now, saying--though they don't realize it--"I won't trust in the arm of flesh (the prophets), so I am going to trust in the arm of flesh (MYSELF)." Nephi means to trust in the Spirit.

What is the Spirit telling you? What HAS the Spirit told you? In the Book of Mormon, many problems occur, especially among the believers, because they have FORGOTTEN what the Spirit has told them in the past; Satan comes and sows confusion, doubt, anger, judgment, etc., and people disbelieve. Looking back, from here, it's easy to see; one day, looking back on all this, it will be easier to see. Stay with the Spirit; He will lead you to Jesus Christ.

Listen to President Nelson's talks. Are they perfect, from a perfect man? No. But the Spirit will let you know. Humbly listening will allow you to feel the power, joy, and simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Humbly listening/ reading the Book of Mormon will bring similar feelings, because the Spirit testifies in both.

I haven't read the comments (I respond before reading them, otherwise... anyway), but I would not doubt that you will hear many telling you that your parents are correct, and that you are wrong. Is that what the Spirit tells you? Or do you feel like kind of like you did when you were an atheist?

Pray for the gift of the spirit of discernment, and discern by the Spirit.

[LDS Watchman]

Parents can and do lead their children astray. Jesus said to leave them behind for his sake if necessary.

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Again, nothing says that the church can't fall. People have their agency, even apostles. What it does say is that the very elect will be decieved, that the eye watching over you must be plucked out. Maybe stop trusting in man and listen to the Holy Ghost on these matters, who clearly has warmed against the evils and secret combinations of this world.

I believe what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say, which is that the church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and won't fail.

The scriptures don't conflate a worldly church with the Kingdom of God, and neither did Joseph Smith. Such a thing is tantamount to worshipping mammon. You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

It's not ME saying that. It's the scriptures and Joseph Smith.

I will make a new thread on this soon, but in the meantime here is just one scripture that shows that the church and kingdom of God in the last days are one and the same:

69 Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given.
D&C 42

[LDS Watchman]

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Actually that is incorrect, the priesthood was restored to the earth and will never be taken from it again. The priesthood does not need a church, the church needs the priesthood.

No, what I said is completely correct. I will make a new thread soon proving this.

[MikeMaillet]

I think we may be focusing too much on "The Church" and not enough on "The Covenant" that is the Book of Mormon. It's a pity that the Book of Mormon is associated with the church that peddles it. We have in every way violated the covenant and will now endure the consequences.

For me it's not "Let's go Brandon", although I find that one rather amusing. I'm going with:

Let's Go Shopping!

See y'all at the mall,

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[Vision]

The church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and it will not fail.

Actually that is incorrect, the priesthood was restored to the earth and will never be taken from it again. The priesthood does not need a church, the church needs the priesthood.

No, what I said is completely correct. I will make a new thread soon proving this.

You're going to prove that the priesthood wasn't restored, but the church was? Can't wait for this information.

[OPMissionary]

Again, nothing says that the church can't fall. People have their agency, even apostles. What it does say is that the very elect will be decieved, that the eye watching over you must be plucked out. Maybe stop trusting in man and listen to the Holy Ghost on these matters, who clearly has warmed against the evils and secret combinations of this world.

I believe what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say, which is that the church/kingdom of God was restored for the last time in 1830 and won't fail.

The scriptures don't conflate a worldly church with the Kingdom of God, and neither did Joseph Smith. Such a thing is tantamount to worshipping mammon. You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

It's not ME saying that. It's the scriptures and Joseph Smith.

I will make a new thread on this soon, but in the meantime here is just one scripture that shows that the church and kingdom of God in the last days are one and the same:

69 Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given.
D&C 42

Yeah, it's talking about the new Jerusalem in the millennium, which it clearly states in the two verses prior which you did not quote. The church is the church if the firstborn. We're not quite there yet buddy.

[tribrac]

Lets get one thing straight....nobody is driving anyone anywhere they don't want to go.

[randomperson101]

Lets get one thing straight....nobody is driving anyone anywhere they don't want to go.

Okay, let me put it this way, there's something that brought joy and happiness in your life, now you're being lectured that it's all wrong & that you were raised wrong if you continue to believe so. It leaves a sour taste for both roads. If I continue down one path, it's going against the wills of my parents... the other path, goes with my parents, but down a path of confusion of what I've been doing my whole life & just tears apart everything I once knew to be true.

It's not fun either way in my mind, but yet I'm forced to choose.