How do you justify this?

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg (129.12 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

[Artaxerxes]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

[nightlight]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

Lol perhaps LDS should really start talking the BoM and New Testament a bit more literal then. It's too bad Brigham Young wanted an old testament church

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

That in no way proves someone will go to Hell if they leave the church. Try again.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I have presented 0 opinions and 0 scriptures, only asked her the same question. She just said this:

9B1809CC-3486-4C8C-A2C6-F8970DF04D6F.jpeg (204.89 KiB) Viewed 1148 times

Lmao, this is hilarious. I’m finished.

Aren’t some members so Christ-like???

[InfoWarrior82]

You should ask her

"If someone who is exercising unrighteous dominion in their priesthood office tells you that your priesthood has been cut off for not obeying them, does that mean you've lost your priesthood?"



I think we'd all agree, hypothetically and technically.... no!


But, this is actually a question on whether or not our church leaders are in fact exercising unrighteous dominion over us. That's what the argument is really about.

[TruthSeeker77]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

I'm fine then. Because none of the men who proclaim to lead the Mormon church are true prophets of God. There is no rebellion here. Many, including myself, do not believe that these men are prophets, seers or revelators. I listen to the Word when I hear it. I have heard it in many places, out of the mouths of faithful men who love the Lord and FORSAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE WORLD to proclaim the true doctrine of Christ. So I HEAR the Word of the Lord!!!!! Therefore, this scripture doesn't apply to me either.

[Gadianton Slayer]

You should ask her

"If someone who is exercising unrighteous dominion in their priesthood office tells you that your priesthood has been cut off for not obeying them, does that mean you've lost your priesthood?"



I think we'd all agree, hypothetically and technically.... no!


But, this is actually a question on whether or not our church leaders are in fact exercising unrighteous dominion over us. That's what the argument is really about.

She won’t answer because she knows it’s wrong.

D&C 121 outlines this nicely though.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

I'm fine then. Because none of the men who proclaim to lead the Mormon church are true prophets of God. There is no rebellion here. Many, including myself, do not believe that these men are prophets, seers or revelators. I listen to the Word when I hear it. I have heard it in many places, out of the mouths of faithful men who love the Lord and FORSAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE WORLD to proclaim the true doctrine of Christ. So I HEAR the Word of the Lord!!!!! Therefore, this scripture doesn't apply to me either.

Yes. The supposed “servants” will fight against those true messengers of God. The LDS org today teaches doctrine that contradicts what was taught by the Savior, and He condemns the entirety of the church for it in D&C 84.

People will see and believe what they want though, it’s a good thing God is our judge.

[NewEliza]

Wow this lady is weird. And you know I like Brigham young.

It’s so so hard to break out of the cognitive dissonance. I once attempted to demonstrate to someone that they were deep in circular reasoning regarding the “won’t lead us astray” issue, and they just got mad at me and said “stop using those philosophy terms with me!!!” Lol

[Chip]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

This is happening now. Those who aren't accepting the safe and simple solutions to COVID that are being presented by brave doctors are, instead, being deceived into taking dangerous injections by false prophets affiliated with the secret combination. Many are dying as a result of their spiritual deafness. They will not hear truth.

[Chip]

I told a friend the other day that the church is now requiring all on Temple Square to be vaccinated for the holiday events. He responded that they HAVE TO do this in order to maintain their tax-exempt status. I pointed out that that may be correct. They care more about that than they do your health. Then he changed the subject. He will not get the vaxx, by the way.

[Mamabear]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

I notice that no prophets of old were ever called or voted in by men, only called by the mouth of God. Interesting difference.
Does that mean I’m an apostate because I think the current ones are “lost”? Nope. I give heed to all the prophets and apostles in the scriptures, therefore I’m not an apostate. A true apostate is someone who turns completely away from Jesus and the gospel. I’m looking for apostles and prophets who preach repentance and are literally hated by the world because they stand for truth and righteousness. I want men who preach that homosexuality, abortion, lust, porn, greed, idolatry, etc are SINS that we need to repent of. All I hear is crickets!

[Trucker]

I have presented 0 opinions and 0 scriptures, only asked her the same question. She just said this:

9B1809CC-3486-4C8C-A2C6-F8970DF04D6F.jpeg

Lmao, this is hilarious. I’m finished.

Aren’t some members so Christ-like???

Lol I guess that's mormon equivalent of "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Well Gadianton Slayer, "Have you stopped looking at pornography"?

It's a simple yes or no question.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I have presented 0 opinions and 0 scriptures, only asked her the same question. She just said this:

9B1809CC-3486-4C8C-A2C6-F8970DF04D6F.jpeg

Lmao, this is hilarious. I’m finished.

Aren’t some members so Christ-like???

Lol I guess that's mormon equivalent of "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Well Gadianton Slayer, "Have you stopped looking at pornography"?

It's a simple yes or no question.

[Gazelem]

The spirit is not present with such individuals. Otherwise there would not be such blatant stupidity.

On the note of the first message. Access to priesthood is between the individual and the Lord. Man cannot give or revoke.

[Subcomandante]

Responding to the OP: This is a misquote. Brigham Young said this to the folks at Kirkland that were turning against Joseph, but obviously he was referring to Joseph instead of Brigham.

The second quote is interesting; people assume the worst in us I guess.

And a slight correction Gazelem, the priesthood AUTHORITY is conferred by men by the laying of hands, however the priesthood POWER depends on how close we are to the Lord.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Wow this lady is weird. And you know I like Brigham young.

It’s so so hard to break out of the cognitive dissonance. I once attempted to demonstrate to someone that they were deep in circular reasoning regarding the “won’t lead us astray” issue, and they just got mad at me and said “stop using those philosophy terms with me!!!” Lol

I agree. It’s hard to break cultural indoctrination... meaning, the idea that a man can’t lead you astray is simply the doctrine of men. It’s not true. But it’s what we’ve been taught since birth if you’re raised in the church, it’s a comfortable belief... one that rids us of accountability.

[Artaxerxes]

I’ve been discussing with a woman who I would consider an LDS apologist, based out of Utah. Every response to her is literally just asking if she believes the brethren are incapable of leading her astray... nothing else. She hasn’t answered yet, but I find some of her logic to be interesting. Like this:

3DA69BFD-58A6-4AD8-AE4A-881AE92871AB.jpeg

Do any of you believe this? If so, what doctrine do you believe supports this idea?

I think it’s completely wrong, but am interested to see if there’s literally anything to support it.

Thanks.

"the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"

I notice that no prophets of old were ever called or voted in by men, only called by the mouth of God. Interesting difference.
Does that mean I’m an apostate because I think the current ones are “lost”? Nope. I give heed to all the prophets and apostles in the scriptures, therefore I’m not an apostate. A true apostate is someone who turns completely away from Jesus and the gospel. I’m looking for apostles and prophets who preach repentance and are literally hated by the world because they stand for truth and righteousness. I want men who preach that homosexuality, abortion, lust, porn, greed, idolatry, etc are SINS that we need to repent of. All I hear is crickets!

This is the standard two step that's danced over and over again.

"The 15 are wrong to say that we need to Follow the Prophet!"
"It says it right here in the D&C."
"Well, they're not REAL apostles."

The question was whether there's a scriptural basis for believing people will be cut off from not heeding Brigham. There is. You can disagree with that conclusion, but it's not unscriptural as OP is claiming.

[Gadianton Slayer]

This is the standard two step that's danced over and over again.

"The 15 are wrong to say that we need to Follow the Prophet!"
"It says it right here in the D&C."
"Well, they're not REAL apostles."

The question was whether there's a scriptural basis for believing people will be cut off from not heeding Brigham. There is. You can disagree with that conclusion, but it's not unscriptural as OP is claiming.

It is absolutely unscriptural. Show me the scripture that says I will go to Hell if I leave the LDS organization. I’m no longer a member, so do you believe I’m going to Hell?

Alma cut himself off from the church, yet he had authority to baptize. Is he going to Hell?

[Artaxerxes]

This is the standard two step that's danced over and over again.

"The 15 are wrong to say that we need to Follow the Prophet!"
"It says it right here in the D&C."
"Well, they're not REAL apostles."

The question was whether there's a scriptural basis for believing people will be cut off from not heeding Brigham. There is. You can disagree with that conclusion, but it's not unscriptural as OP is claiming.

It is absolutely unscriptural. Show me the scripture that says I will go to Hell if I leave the LDS organization. I’m no longer a member, so do you believe I’m going to Hell?

Alma cut himself off from the church, yet he had authority to baptize. Is he going to Hell?

It's a question of what constitutes hell. Some people believe anything except the celestial kingdom would be hell. All I know if, I don't want to be cut off from among God's people, whatever that means. Because I should think that the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are the Lord's people and I would like to be among them.

Alma gave heed to the Lord's prophets and apostles. I think he's doing just fine.

[Gadianton Slayer]

This is the standard two step that's danced over and over again.

"The 15 are wrong to say that we need to Follow the Prophet!"
"It says it right here in the D&C."
"Well, they're not REAL apostles."

The question was whether there's a scriptural basis for believing people will be cut off from not heeding Brigham. There is. You can disagree with that conclusion, but it's not unscriptural as OP is claiming.

It is absolutely unscriptural. Show me the scripture that says I will go to Hell if I leave the LDS organization. I’m no longer a member, so do you believe I’m going to Hell?

Alma cut himself off from the church, yet he had authority to baptize. Is he going to Hell?

It's a question of what constitutes hell. Some people believe anything except the celestial kingdom would be hell. All I know if, I don't want to be cut off from among God's people, whatever that means. Because I should think that the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are the Lord's people and I would like to be among them.

Alma gave heed to the Lord's prophets and apostles. I think he's doing just fine.

Ok, so do you believe I’m going to Hell, whatever that looks like, because I left the LDS org? Because that is what’s stated in the OP.

If you don’t agree, you don’t have to defend this woman. Her perspectives are deranged, read the second screenshot I shared.

[Artaxerxes]

This is the standard two step that's danced over and over again.

"The 15 are wrong to say that we need to Follow the Prophet!"
"It says it right here in the D&C."
"Well, they're not REAL apostles."

The question was whether there's a scriptural basis for believing people will be cut off from not heeding Brigham. There is. You can disagree with that conclusion, but it's not unscriptural as OP is claiming.

It is absolutely unscriptural. Show me the scripture that says I will go to Hell if I leave the LDS organization. I’m no longer a member, so do you believe I’m going to Hell?

Alma cut himself off from the church, yet he had authority to baptize. Is he going to Hell?

It's a question of what constitutes hell. Some people believe anything except the celestial kingdom would be hell. All I know if, I don't want to be cut off from among God's people, whatever that means. Because I should think that the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are the Lord's people and I would like to be among them.

Alma gave heed to the Lord's prophets and apostles. I think he's doing just fine.

Ok, so do you believe I’m going to Hell, whatever that looks like, because I left the LDS org? Because that is what’s stated in the OP.

If you don’t agree, you don’t have to defend this woman. Her perspectives are deranged, read the second screenshot I shared.

I believe what the scriptures say: those who don't need the prophets and apostles will be cut off from his people, which includes the celestial kingdom. If that's you or not is up to you, not me.

[Gadianton Slayer]

It is absolutely unscriptural. Show me the scripture that says I will go to Hell if I leave the LDS organization. I’m no longer a member, so do you believe I’m going to Hell?

Alma cut himself off from the church, yet he had authority to baptize. Is he going to Hell?

It's a question of what constitutes hell. Some people believe anything except the celestial kingdom would be hell. All I know if, I don't want to be cut off from among God's people, whatever that means. Because I should think that the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are the Lord's people and I would like to be among them.

Alma gave heed to the Lord's prophets and apostles. I think he's doing just fine.

Ok, so do you believe I’m going to Hell, whatever that looks like, because I left the LDS org? Because that is what’s stated in the OP.

If you don’t agree, you don’t have to defend this woman. Her perspectives are deranged, read the second screenshot I shared.

I believe what the scriptures say: those who don't need the prophets and apostles will be cut off from his people, which includes the celestial kingdom. If that's you or not is up to you, not me.

So you agree that the statement made by this woman in the OP is false, and she was wrong in claiming that I will go to Hell. Because that’s not up to her.

Your belief merits a follow-up question... which happens to be the exact same one I asked this woman. Do you believe that the brethren (or any prophet) are incapable of leading you astray?

[Artaxerxes]

It's a question of what constitutes hell. Some people believe anything except the celestial kingdom would be hell. All I know if, I don't want to be cut off from among God's people, whatever that means. Because I should think that the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are the Lord's people and I would like to be among them.

Alma gave heed to the Lord's prophets and apostles. I think he's doing just fine.

Ok, so do you believe I’m going to Hell, whatever that looks like, because I left the LDS org? Because that is what’s stated in the OP.

If you don’t agree, you don’t have to defend this woman. Her perspectives are deranged, read the second screenshot I shared.

I believe what the scriptures say: those who don't need the prophets and apostles will be cut off from his people, which includes the celestial kingdom. If that's you or not is up to you, not me.

So you agree that the statement made by this woman in the OP is false, and she was wrong in claiming that I will go to Hell. Because that’s not up to her.

Your belief merits a follow-up question... which happens to be the exact same one I asked this woman. Do you believe that the brethren (or any prophet) is incapable of leading you astray?

No, I'm saying I'm not going to judge you. If she is willing to do that, then that's up to her. I'm neither saying she's right not wrong about you. I am saying that the doctrine she's teaching is at least arguably correct.

Yes, they cannot lead us astray.