The 15 Bretheren Have Painted Themselves Into a Corner

[The Red Pill]

Artaxerxes, I really don't understand your motives. Study the charts, graphs, data that I linked to above. It's just data, not conjecture, not opinion...just data.

-You will note that more deaths have occurred so far in 2021 with the covid jab than the ENTIRE 30 year history of VAERS with all vaccines COMBINED.

-Look closely at the death by days after vaccination. If that does not solidify cause and effect for you, I don't know what would.

People looking for the truth and having critical thinking skills can quickly determine, from those two data graphs alone that the vax is killing people. LOTS of people.

Although it may be required by law...many doctors are not even aware of VAERS. Many others don't want to and don't have the time to fill it out. It is not a simple process. Further many docs are feeling pressured by the administration to not submit a report.

Harvard did a study of the VAERS system. It determined that it only captures between 1% to 10% of actual injuries. Let that sink in. It means as monstrous as the 17,000+ number is...it is actually 10 to 100 times that number.

Quite frankly your comments disgust me. People are dying everyday and you want to try and debate raw data. Lives and families are being destroyed. Do you care? Do you know what it is like to lose a spouse? Close friend? NEEDLESSLY?

I am sure you will respond with some snarky, smart @#$ comment. Thats what you do, that's who you are. I feel sorry for you.

[Artaxerxes]

Arteries, I really don't understand your motives. Study the charts, graphs, data that I linked to above. It's just data, not conjecture, not opinion...just data.

-You will note that more deaths have occurred so far in 2021 with the covid jab than the ENTIRE 30 year history of VAERS with all vaccines COMBINED.

-Look closely at the death by days after vaccination. If that does not solidify cause and effect for you, I don't know what would.

People looking for the truth and having critical thinking skills can quickly determine, from those two data graphs alone that the vax is killing people. LOTS of people.

Although it may be required by law...many doctors are not even aware of VAERS. Many others don't want to and don't have the time to fill it out. It is not a simple process. Further many docs are feeling pressured by the administration to not submit a report.

Harvard did a study of the VAERS system. It determined that it only captures between 1% to 10% of actual injuries. Let that sink in. It means as monstrous as the 17,000+ number is...it is actually 10 to 100 times that number.

Quite frankly your comments disgust me. People are dying everyday and you want to try and debate raw data. Lives and families are being destroyed. Do you care? Do you know what it is like to lose a spouse? Close friend? NEEDLESSLY?

I am sure you will respond with some snarky, smart donkey comment. Thats what you do, that's who you are. I feel sorry for you.

In the history of VAERS, have we ever done a mass vaccination of the elderly? When doctors go through and vaccinate 80 year olds, what do we expect to happen? What would we expect to happen even if they weren't vaccinated?

As the article I posted states, "As of May 10, there have been 4,434 reports of death following a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS. Doctors at the CDC review each reported death, looking at death certificates, autopsy and medical records. They have no reason to believe that COVID-19 vaccines cause death."
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/does- ... 9-vaccines

The Harvard study does not say that.
https://vaxopedia.org/2019/09/03/percen ... -to-vaers/

[The Red Pill]

Every single year....it's called the flu shot. The elderly line up like flies at a picnic.

Your article is incorrect. Look at the actual data. I provided for you. Did you do that?

Seriously...Nebraska med...again.

Your Harvard study link is NOT the Harvard study...try again skippy.

You have no soul!

[Artaxerxes]

Every single year....it's called the flu shot. The elderly line up like flies at a picnic.

Your article is incorrect. Look at the actual data. I provided for you. Did you do that?

Seriously...Nebraska med...again.

Your Harvard study link is NOT the Harvard study...try again skippy.

You have no soul!

Of course I looked at the data. Just putting VAERS data into a pretty picture doesn't make it any more reliable for the proposition you're advancing.

Which study were your referring to, then? Because the 1% stat is not in the Davenport study you linked to earlier. Try again Skippy.

[larsenb]

. . . The truth:
Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS:
Any adverse event listed in the VAERS Table of Reportable Events Following Vaccination that occurs within the specified time period after vaccination
An adverse event listed by the vaccine manufacturer as a contraindication to further doses of the vaccine
https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html . . . .

The truth:
Vaers includes reports of people who died from car crashes (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/529778), head injuries (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1803758), gun shot wounds (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1535608), drowning (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1542098), and from shaken baby syndrome (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/223187). . . . .

But you haven’t described or linked to what the penalties are for not filling out a report, nor have you given any information on any system in place to monitor doctors and their expected VAERS reporting. I.e., unless there is a system in place with penalties set, there is no incentive for doctors to fill out the reports outside of their conscientiousness.

Plus you lie by giving a quote from your link saying: “Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS”, yet the text from your link actually says: “Healthcare providers are required to report to VAERS . . . “. VAERS publicists can say anything they want about their reporting system.

Next you provide links averring that VAERS includes reports of people who died from car crashes, gunshot wounds, drowning and shaken baby syndrome. What a joke. My first comment dealt with that possibility.

But let’s look at your links. First one had to do w/ a baby that had taken shots of PREVENAR 13 and ROTARIX, having nothing to do w/the COVID mRNA shots. The 2nd link had to do with a 77 yr old female patient who incurred a head injury with following death after receiving two COVID shots. An accidental fall is not a physical symptom from a shot, though the shots may have played a role in her fall. Just an example of an over-conscientious doctor.

3rd link, an 85 yr old individual admitted to ER 72 days after his COVID shots. Died of hemorrhaging from a gunshot wound. Another extremely overconscientious doctor or one of his staff he put up to wasting time filling out the form.

Basically, the same type of situation w/the 4th link, w/the 60 year old drowning victim admitted to ER 8 months after his/her 2nd shot; and your last link, like the first had nothing to do w/the mRNA shots.

Your full of pink ink, bud. I can’t imagine a troll like yourself doing this type of posting unless you’re being paid for it.

Of course, one of the goals of a troll is to waste people’s time responding to them. Ya got me on that one; but I’ll do better next time.

[NeveR]

If indeed the Is prophet Has led people astray, then as he has said the Lord will remove him. This is not my stewardship and it is not your Stewardship. It is in the hands of the Lord and I trust the Lord.

I suggest we wait and see what happens by next general conference. What do you say?

I'm willing to leave it up to the Lord and meanwhile To come unto Christ well as I can

There's something here about building Zion guided by Jesus that we seem to be missing.

Is the corollary to that - if the Lord does NOT remove him then he has NOT led people astray?

What's the cut off time for us to know that?

I am genuinely asking so please don't misread the tone as challenging or aggressive.

You see, all of us here, inc you, do KNOW the vaxx is unnecessary and potentially deadly. So, Nelson has, even if unintentionally, led his people astray by telling them to the contrary.

I understand he is a man as well as a Prophet and may be mistaken. That's a fair point.

But how likely is it an MD would not be able to find the truth about this, even if not inspired?

And how likely is it the Lord would not attempt to speak through our Prophet on such a vital matter?

[Artaxerxes]

. . . The truth:
Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS:
Any adverse event listed in the VAERS Table of Reportable Events Following Vaccination that occurs within the specified time period after vaccination
An adverse event listed by the vaccine manufacturer as a contraindication to further doses of the vaccine
https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html . . . .

The truth:
Vaers includes reports of people who died from car crashes (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/529778), head injuries (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1803758), gun shot wounds (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1535608), drowning (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/1542098), and from shaken baby syndrome (https://openvaers.com/openvaers/223187). . . . .

But you haven’t described or linked to what the penalties are for not filling out a report, nor have you given any information on any system in place to monitor doctors and their expected VAERS reporting. I.e., unless there is a system in place with penalties set, there is no incentive for doctors to fill out the reports outside of their conscientiousness.

Plus you lie by giving a quote from your link saying: “Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS”, yet the text from your link actually says: “Healthcare providers are required to report to VAERS . . . “. VAERS publicists can say anything they want about their reporting system.

Next you provide links averring that VAERS includes reports of people who died from car crashes, gunshot wounds, drowning and shaken baby syndrome. What a joke. My first comment dealt with that possibility.

But let’s look at your links. First one had to do w/ a baby that had taken shots of PREVENAR 13 and ROTARIX, having nothing to do w/the COVID mRNA shots. The 2nd link had to do with a 77 yr old female patient who incurred a head injury with following death after receiving two COVID shots. An accidental fall is not a physical symptom from a shot, though the shots may have played a role in her fall. Just an example of an over-conscientious doctor.

3rd link, an 85 yr old individual admitted to ER 72 days after his COVID shots. Died of hemorrhaging from a gunshot wound. Another extremely overconscientious doctor or one of his staff he put up to wasting time filling out the form.

Basically, the same type of situation w/the 4th link, w/the 60 year old drowning victim admitted to ER 8 months after his/her 2nd shot; and your last link, like the first had nothing to do w/the mRNA shots.

Your full of pink ink, bud. I can’t imagine a troll like yourself doing this type of posting unless you’re being paid for it.

Of course, one of the goals of a troll is to waste people’s time responding to them. Ya got me on that one; but I’ll do better next time.

You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Screenshot_20211104-064918.png (241.6 KiB) Viewed 430 times

[Reluctant Watchman]

Some healthcare workers don't even know VAERS exists.

[Artaxerxes]

Some healthcare workers don't even know VAERS exists.

That would be an issue for their licensing board. If they don't know the requirements of their profession, and I'm skeptical anyone doesn't, then they aren't qualified to practice in their field.

[JohnnyL]

Should I make an exception to normal logic and reason just because it's someone close to me?

I'm waiting to see your "normal logic and reason". So far . . . . nope.

Correlation isn't causation. It's pretty well accepted, normal logic.

The common nonsensical rebuttal used by pro 'vaxxers'.

No one is saying it is absolutely causal. What it is, is a strong indication of connection or causality, especially when no other conditions are present. . . which warrants further investigation to include autopsies and whether there were any or no prior conditions. But even with prior conditions, it would be tough to eliminate the vaccines from influencing the outcome.

"There are more car accidents when it snows." Have I done a complete, laborious study on causation there? No. Have I read one? No. Do I believe it coincidental? No.

[JohnnyL]

. . . . . The common nonsensical rebuttal used by pro 'vaxxers'.

No one is saying it is absolutely causal. What it is, is a strong indication of connection or causality, especially when no other conditions are present. . . which warrants further investigation to include autopsies and whether there were any or no prior conditions. But even with prior conditions, it would be tough to eliminate the vaccines from influencing the outcome.

You don't think people are saying there's a causal connection when they say "The vax has killed thousands!!!"?

I think it is a very reasonable assumption.

And reasonable assumptions are usually the onus of "correlation is not causation" to disprove.

[JohnnyL]

If indeed the Is prophet Has led people astray, then as he has said the Lord will remove him. This is not my stewardship and it is not your Stewardship. It is in the hands of the Lord and I trust the Lord.

I suggest we wait and see what happens by next general conference. What do you say?

I'm willing to leave it up to the Lord and meanwhile To come unto Christ well as I can

There's something here about building Zion guided by Jesus that we seem to be missing.

Is the corollary to that - if the Lord does NOT remove him then he has NOT led people astray?

What's the cut off time for us to know that?

I am genuinely asking so please don't misread the tone as challenging or aggressive.

You see, all of us here, inc you, do KNOW the vaxx is unnecessary and potentially deadly. So, Nelson has, even if unintentionally, led his people astray by telling them to the contrary.

I understand he is a man as well as a Prophet and may be mistaken. That's a fair point.

But how likely is it an MD would not be able to find the truth about this, even if not inspired?

And how likely is it the Lord would not attempt to speak through our Prophet on such a vital matter?

These are great questions and a great summary of the conundrum of "follow the prophet".
Unfortunately, many of those who *do* see problems with the whole plandemic and especially the vaccines, have become spiritually worse off than those who don't.

"Nelson has, even if unintentionally, led his people astray by telling them to the contrary." I am very anxious to say this, but maybe he has led his people astray on this--but not necessarily *His* people.

An MD is much more likely to *not* find out the truth about this.

I cannot read the minds of the apostles. I cannot read God/ Jesus's mind. I do not know why it is happening as it is, or what else is going on. I could ruminate all day and come up with possibilities and degrees of possibilities (and have!). The only way to "take care" of this is through personal revelation from the Holy Ghost, and it can only take care of God's will for me and my areas of stewardship, not others', and especially not the Church's.

This does not mean we can't make our voices and views known to the apostles, though I doubt they'll respond, especially with anything meaningful, but I believe it is, to some degree, part of the answer of our getting an answer.

As hinted, there is the possibility that the Lord is purposefully, intentionally, withholding revelation to them about this, and they are doing the best they can without it. This would not be the first time. (See DC 19 about eternal punishment and endless punishment and how God allowed people to be misled. Remember also that until Alma, no one understood the spirit world. Most Book of Mormon prophets didn't understand degrees of glory or the possibility of repentance in the spirit world and work for the dead. Etc.)

As with Blacks and the priesthood, it is possible that the apostles' views are not only strongly cultural, but likely errant historical ones--errant due to misunderstanding and especially misinterpretation.

I really wish I could answer all your questions. I can't. I can't even come close to. I just know God's answer to my question for me and my family.

I hope that in the future, the Church will abstain from vaccines, and allow others (members or not) the freedom to choose.

[tribrac]

If the vax turns out good the 15 will say "see we told you so"

If the vax is neutral or only kind of bad but the Gads punish the unvaxed, the 15 will say "this is why we told you"

If the vax is awful the 15 will say "if more of you had listened to us sooner and had more faith then the outcome would've been better."

[larsenb]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

[Subcomandante]

This post is in response to the OP.

OTL: Original Timeline. The one in which we live.

I don't feel like the Brethren have painted themselves into a corner. THOUGH, it would appear that no matter what the Brethren did, they would paint themselves into one of four corners, plus any other corner that could appear in the future.

Corner 1: OTL. Closing down the churches and temples due to the spread of the virus, then holding virtual Conference, then opening up each venue cautiously, albeit with some procedures that could be considered by many to be excessive intrusions. Urging people to wear masks where required and to get the vaccinations while letting people know that those participating in the semi-live Conference last month were fully vaccinated against the virus.

Corner 2: The LDSFF optimum situation. Conference is held live in April 2020 as everywhere else is closing down. The Conference centers on faith in Jesus and condemns those that would try to attack the Church for continuing to hold these meetings because these are attacks on religious freedom. Several members get sick and a few die. The Church is lampooned nationally and worldwide. Due to the Church's refusal to stop the meetings, several countries revoke the Church's registration and being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ is deemed illegal in many of them, making the Ghana Freeze look tame by comparison.

Corner 3: Initial compliance, LDSFF optimum situation RE vaccine mandates. Elder Bednar sticks out his neck as in OTL but unlike in OTL, more people and eventually the Church leadership back him up. The Church resume the meetings making mask wearing optional and the temples are opened up likewise with optional masks. The Church strongly condemns the push for vaccine mandates all over the world and tells the members NOT to get the vaccine. Many members living in Europe, Australia, and in some Latin American countries suffer greatly, but also find themselves unable to make it to Zion in the US because as in OTL, vaccine mandates are up and running in the USA.

Corner 4: LDSFF Optimum Situation, followed by compliance to vaccine mandates. Everything starts off in Corner 2, as shown here, and the Church is in dire straits as a result. The Prophet and Apostles give in and say, "Let's get vaccinated. We screwed up and we are paying the price for our insolence." As the prophet gets vaccinated, and that is broadcast, as well as his words, the current split that we have in OTL would be even more pronounced than it is right now as this would clearly be seen both on the inside as well as on the out, as the Church caving into peer and governmental pressures.

So you have four corners.

Where is the paint drier?

[Niemand]

I can think of several other scenarios.

[Artaxerxes]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

[JuneBug12000]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

I think the real problem is that withing the last 20 months a lot of people heard about VAERS for the first time. Those same people are arguing with others who have known about the problem with vaccines, doctors and VAERS reporting for years.

Your arguments about what reporting is and isn't required, vaccine safety, etc. are not going to have an effect because the rest of us didn't just wake up March 2020 and realize their was a problem. We have been studying and talking about this for many, many years.

Showing up late to the discussion and making under-educated comments will not get you respect or change the minds of those who know better.

You would do better to ask questions and then listen to the answers before making judgement and throwing all your eggs in one basket.

[Subcomandante]

I can think of several other scenarios.

Those are the four that come from the top of my head. Care to add any others?

[larsenb]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

No, the page link you provided did not have the word "law" in the statement provided. One would have to dig to find the version you posted.

You're waffling.

And no, the 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–25 - Recording and reporting of information link you provided is not VAERS. VAERS was not created by FDA/CDC until 1990. Underscoring this fact is that this code primarily requires vaccine adverse reactions to be placed in the patient's permanent medical record (that each person should be required to have a permanent medical record is scary enough). It also requires the adverse reaction info to be reported to the 'Secretary', which apparently refers to The Secretary of Health and Human Services, not to VAERS, which didn't exist.

VAERS, as stated, is passive and voluntary. Once again, are you able to provide info on successful prosecutions of doctors for misreporting or neglecting to report to VAERS by state medical examiners? Keep trying. Also, try not to move the goal posts again.

[1775peasant]

This post is in response to the OP.

OTL: Original Timeline. The one in which we live.

I don't feel like the Brethren have painted themselves into a corner. THOUGH, it would appear that no matter what the Brethren did, they would paint themselves into one of four corners, plus any other corner that could appear in the future.

Corner 1: OTL. Closing down the churches and temples due to the spread of the virus, then holding virtual Conference, then opening up each venue cautiously, albeit with some procedures that could be considered by many to be excessive intrusions. Urging people to wear masks where required and to get the vaccinations while letting people know that those participating in the semi-live Conference last month were fully vaccinated against the virus.

Corner 2: The LDSFF optimum situation. Conference is held live in April 2020 as everywhere else is closing down. The Conference centers on faith in Jesus and condemns those that would try to attack the Church for continuing to hold these meetings because these are attacks on religious freedom. Several members get sick and a few die. The Church is lampooned nationally and worldwide. Due to the Church's refusal to stop the meetings, several countries revoke the Church's registration and being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ is deemed illegal in many of them, making the Ghana Freeze look tame by comparison.

Corner 3: Initial compliance, LDSFF optimum situation RE vaccine mandates. Elder Bednar sticks out his neck as in OTL but unlike in OTL, more people and eventually the Church leadership back him up. The Church resume the meetings making mask wearing optional and the temples are opened up likewise with optional masks. The Church strongly condemns the push for vaccine mandates all over the world and tells the members NOT to get the vaccine. Many members living in Europe, Australia, and in some Latin American countries suffer greatly, but also find themselves unable to make it to Zion in the US because as in OTL, vaccine mandates are up and running in the USA.

Corner 4: LDSFF Optimum Situation, followed by compliance to vaccine mandates. Everything starts off in Corner 2, as shown here, and the Church is in dire straits as a result. The Prophet and Apostles give in and say, "Let's get vaccinated. We screwed up and we are paying the price for our insolence." As the prophet gets vaccinated, and that is broadcast, as well as his words, the current split that we have in OTL would be even more pronounced than it is right now as this would clearly be seen both on the inside as well as on the out, as the Church caving into peer and governmental pressures.

So you have four corners.

Where is the paint drier?

so, the True & Living Church of Jesus Christ can be boxed in by the "peer and governmental pressures." of the World, eh?

hmmmmm?


"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

[Artaxerxes]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

No, the page link you provided did not have the word "law" in the statement provided. One would have to dig to find the version you posted.

You're waffling.

And no, the 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–25 - Recording and reporting of information link you provided is not VAERS. VAERS was not created by FDA/CDC until 1990. Underscoring this fact is that this code primarily requires vaccine adverse reactions to be placed in the patient's permanent medical record (that each person should be required to have a permanent medical record is scary enough). It also requires the adverse reaction info to be reported to the 'Secretary', which apparently refers to The Secretary of Health and Human Services, not to VAERS, which didn't exist.

VAERS, as stated, is passive and voluntary. Once again, are you able to provide info on successful prosecutions of doctors for misreporting or neglecting to report to VAERS by state medical examiners? Keep trying. Also, try not to move the goal posts again.

These are some weird comments, dude. I don't know why you're having trouble just clicking on the link and reading, but it's quite troubling.

Statutes frequently refer to providing information to the secretary of a department. You don't actually think they sent letters of vaccine reactions to the secretary directly, do you? That's what it refers to when it says the Secretary shall issue reports of these adverse events. That's what VAERS is. So they're required to report it to the secretary, who then reports it in VAERS. It's pretty straightforward.

The law says it's not voluntary. I don't know why you're still arguing this point when the law says you're wrong.

[Artaxerxes]

. . . . . . You understand that every state has a medical licensing board to investigate and ensure compliance of doctors, and they will suspend or revoke their licenses for violations, right? That's not a super secret, is it?

Your claim was "No doctor would go to the trouble to fill out a multi-page, detailed VAERS report on someone who died in a car crash, etc., and claim it was due to a shot the victim received a week earlier." That was simply false. Go ahead and take the L on that one.

And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you might try actually reading their link first. It'll save yourself some embarrassment. Because my link said exactly what I said it did. That's kind of how copy-paste works.

Your first link had the statement without the "law" inserted. Why didn't you provide the correct link?

Now this is a FAQ statement . . . an assertion. But what are the penalties for not reporting or making a wrong report? Normally, laws requiring or preventing certain actions affix penalties for non-compliance. What are the penalties for the VAERS system? They don't have any. Further, the VAERS system is not legislative "law". The system was put in place by the CDC and FDA for obvious purposes.

In fact the VAERS web site says: "VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA". Notice the word "passive". ( https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html ) . This is affirmed by another site: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/conte ... rse-events, where it says: "VAERS is a voluntary reporting system. Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event and information about it to VAERS."

A nice challenge for you will be to find any instance where a state medical licensing board has penalized or even investigated a doctor for not reporting or incorrectly reporting something to VAERS. Have fun with that one.

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

I think the real problem is that withing the last 20 months a lot of people heard about VAERS for the first time. Those same people are arguing with others who have known about the problem with vaccines, doctors and VAERS reporting for years.

Your arguments about what reporting is and isn't required, vaccine safety, etc. are not going to have an effect because the rest of us didn't just wake up March 2020 and realize their was a problem. We have been studying and talking about this for many, many years.

Showing up late to the discussion and making under-educated comments will not get you respect or change the minds of those who know better.

You would do better to ask questions and then listen to the answers before making judgement and throwing all your eggs in one basket.

Uneducated comments like quoting VAERS and it's enabling legislation instead of internet rumors? Yes, how uneducated of me.

[EmmaLee]

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

I think the real problem is that withing the last 20 months a lot of people heard about VAERS for the first time. Those same people are arguing with others who have known about the problem with vaccines, doctors and VAERS reporting for years.

Your arguments about what reporting is and isn't required, vaccine safety, etc. are not going to have an effect because the rest of us didn't just wake up March 2020 and realize their was a problem. We have been studying and talking about this for many, many years.

Showing up late to the discussion and making under-educated comments will not get you respect or change the minds of those who know better.

You would do better to ask questions and then listen to the answers before making judgement and throwing all your eggs in one basket.

FWIW - Artaxerxes has been on LDSFF since Sep 17, 2014, when s/he registered under the name Stacy Oliver - so, this person isn't new to the discussion - only the current/latest name is new. Then, on Feb 01, 2021, s/he added franklinbluth as another sock puppet. And now Artaxerxes, created on Oct 24, 2021. All three are the same person - and they've been on the forum trolling for over 7 years now. Again, FWIW.

[Lizzy60]

It was on the link I provided, if you actually cared to read it. If you would care to actually look at the screenshot I posted, you would see it is to the same exact site I linked to earlier.

VAERS was created by legislative law passed by Congress, as was the requirement for doctors to report.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-25

The penalty for failing to report to the VAERS system to have your medical license revoked. Medical licensing boards usually find violating federal law to be a big no no.

VAERS is voluntary for the people like parents and others. As the law says, it's mandatory for doctors.

I think the real problem is that withing the last 20 months a lot of people heard about VAERS for the first time. Those same people are arguing with others who have known about the problem with vaccines, doctors and VAERS reporting for years.

Your arguments about what reporting is and isn't required, vaccine safety, etc. are not going to have an effect because the rest of us didn't just wake up March 2020 and realize their was a problem. We have been studying and talking about this for many, many years.

Showing up late to the discussion and making under-educated comments will not get you respect or change the minds of those who know better.

You would do better to ask questions and then listen to the answers before making judgement and throwing all your eggs in one basket.

FWIW - Artaxerxes has been on LDSFF since Sep 17, 2014, when s/he registered under the name Stacy Oliver - so, this person isn't new to the discussion - only the name is new. Then, on Feb 01, 2021, s/he added franklinbluth as another sock puppet. And now Artaxerxes, created on Oct 24, 2021. All three are the same person - and they've been on the forum trolling for over 7 years now. Again, FWIW.

Also, IIRC, Stacy Oliver was banished to Outer Darkness, and then the new sock puppet flanklinbluth was recently sent to Outer Darkness. Hence, the need to keep reinventing himself.