From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

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Luke
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From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Luke »

There has been a lot of discussion recently on the forum about a place of refuge for the Saints. As I read TrueFaith’s thread, I was surprised that no-one had mentioned Mexico. I thought I would share my thoughts. There is an amazing vision by Samuel W. Richards which can be found in “Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith” by N. B. Lundwall, on pages 126-132. In it, he describes the travels of the Saints, which he beheld in a four-hour long vision. I will quote from the relevant portions of his account, and then quote from some other sources which confirm the validity and truthfulness of this vision.

Samuel explains the situation he was in before his vision:

“In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

He agreed to be one of those to go, and subsequently went to meetings with others who had also signed up for the task:

“Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, ‘Stop; rest awhile.’ I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.”

After this, he made it a matter of prayer, and received a four-hour long vision in which he saw a thousand years into the future. He sees the travels of the Saints, and sees them travel from Nauvoo, to Utah, to California:

“No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California.”

Then, he sees something extremely interesting. He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.”

After they return to Jackson County, they enter the Millennium. If true, this vision has some extremely interesting implications for the future of the Saints.

Some additional sources which would confirm this vision:
  • “Before this, the Prophet had foreshadowed the close of his own earthly mission, and the near approach of the time when the Saints in tribulation would find a place of refuge in the far-off vales of the Rocky Mountains, which has already taken place; and also relating still to the future, when a path will be opened for the Saints through Mexico, South America, and to the center Stake of Zion. These, and many more great things were given by him, some of which, as with the ancient disciples, we could not comprehend until fulfilled.” (Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life’s Review, Chapter 7)
  • ““The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. ‘Now’, he said, ‘I will show you the travels of this people’. He then showed our travels through Iowa, and said, ‘Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!’ . . . Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, ‘The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.’” (Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU-S)
  • “The Prophet Joseph said more than 40 years ago that the Latter-day Saints would yet be under the protecting wing of the Republic of Mexico; that, familiarly speaking, the Lord and Satan were as it were, playing a game of checkers; the Lord had one move ahead, and the moves would continue to be made and we would be got down toward Central America; then a backward move would be made and the Lord would sweep the board.” (Jacob Hamblin, as quoted in Jacob Hamblin: The Peacemaker, P. H. Corbett, pg. 416)
  • “It has been asked if we intend to settle more valleys. Why certainly we expect to fill the next valley and then the next, and the next, and so on. It has been the cry of late, through the columns of the newspapers, that the ‘Mormons’ are going into Mexico! That is quite right, we calculate to go there. Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up.” (Brigham Young, JD 18:355, 6 April 1877)
Daniel W. Jones knew that this would happen, and had a desire for it to:
  • “If you will look upon the map of Mexico and find the State of Chihuahua you will observe a district of country showing where several streams head and run off in different directions, some running for hundreds of miles north; so you see, on entering the State of Chihuahua on the north one travels up-hill for several days. The facts are that some of the finest and most fertile mountain valleys of that country are, as shown by measurement, two thousand feet higher than Salt Lake valley. So, if Zion is to be built up in the tops of the mountains, we lack two thousand feet of being there yet. . . . Do you think there will be much of a move from this country to Mexico? I did think so at one time; but I am now under the impression that there will be no great move to that land. What has changed your opinion? Simply this—the people do not wish to go. The inhabitants of Utah have good homes and have made up their minds to accept the situation and stay, and enjoy their wealth and luxuries the same as other people. Then you have given up the idea of ever seeing a prosperous colony of Mormons settle in Mexico, in some of the rich valleys that you have been recommending so long? No, sir; not at all. I still have faith in the move; those who have faith in the Book of Mormon, and have a greater desire to see the words of the Book fulfilled that to have to accumulate wealth, will go. Then you think it will be at the sacrifice of worldly wealth and comforts that people will take hold of the work? Seemingly so, but not in reality. There are many principles revealed to this people that we are slow to put in full practice. Among others United Order, a principle the Prophet Brigham declared would have to be practiced before further advancement would be made by this people. While the majority of the people called Latter-day Saints are inclined to look with suspicion on any move in that direction, the natives of Mexico favor and, in a good degree, practice the principle. A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” (Daniel W. Jones, Forty Years Among the Indians, 1890, pg. 388, 393-394)
The whole of Samuel W. Richards’ vision you can read here:
My brethren, sisters and friends: Quite unexpected to me, prior to coming into this meeting, I have been requested to say a few words to you on some matters touching my history and experience with the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am thankful that I can say I was quite intimate with him while he was living upon the earth. There is a little experience I had with him that perhaps no other person living today could relate. In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith. At the time I thought it a little strange that I should be called upon for a mission of this kind, as I was but a young man, in my teens; but my acquaintance up to that time with the Prophet Joseph was such that I could not say no. I replied, “Yes, I will do anything that the Prophet Joseph wants me to do, that is in my power to do.” Consequently, I gave my name in to be one of a company of twenty-four young men who were selected to travel and explore the Rocky Mountains and find a place for the Church to go to, because the persecution was getting so strong then in Nauvoo that the Prophet Joseph foresaw that the Church would have to leave, retire from the civilized world, and go into the mountains. This was then a wild country.
I am reminded that when I was in Europe, in the early fifties, it was reported to the British Government that I was emigrating many people from Great Britain into a wild country, where they were liable to perish, and it was thought that this emigration ought to be stopped. Because of this I was ordered to appear in London and give an account of what I was doing. I was then presiding over the British Mission, and emigrated many people to this country. I responded to this call, and spent about five hours before a committee of sixteen members of Parliament telling them what I was doing. I had been to this valley myself and knew what it was. I told them that I was sending people to a country where they could own a farm and be as independent in their living as the lords and peers were there. I satisfied them, and they all shook hands with me at the end of our interview and wished me well, and I was invited by a number of them to come again to London and spend some time with them. I speak of this to show that the feeling of the people at that time was that this was a wild country, and we were coming here to perish.
It was the purpose of the Prophet Joseph to come here and locate with his people. He organized this company and held weekly meetings with them for several weeks in Nauvoo, and when he had them sufficiently instructed, as he thought, to properly understand what was to be the character of their mission and fit-out, he went across the river and made a start to go toward the mountains. It was his intention to go to the mountains with us, as a company of pioneers. But he was followed by those who did not like the idea of his leaving, and while they were pleading with him to return, he told them, “If I go back, I go as a lamb to the slaughter.” Nevertheless, they determined he should return, and he went back to Nauvoo. From there he went to Carthage, and we all know the history of what followed.
Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, “Stop; rest awhile.” I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.
No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California. Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.
Now, all this I saw while I was sleeping, and it was so impressed upon me that it can never be forgotten. I saw that this was the result of the Latter-day Saints coming to these valleys of the mountains and following the direction that the Prophet Joseph indicated. I could tell a long story about this matter, if I had the time to do it, but it is not best that I should. I wish, however, to make the statement distinctly, that this coming to the mountains of the Saints of God and establishing themselves here was under the special direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Although there are those who say to the contrary, this is my testimony. The Prophet Joseph Smith had all this planned, and if he had been allowed to have had his way, I believe he might have been with us even today. He would certainly have gone with that company to these mountains and have located the people. I was one of that company, and I think I have the names of the rest. However, the conditions became so severe at Nauvoo that the people had to pick up and leave in a body, before there was time for this company to make the proposed exploration. The Prophet Joseph and his brother, Hyrum, were martyred in Carthage, and the mob would not let the people remain in Nauvoo.
These are the facts in regard to this matter, and I am proud and thankful that I know of these things, and am glad that the Saints are building up these valleys of the mountains as I saw them built up in vision. If the people of God will only go on and keep His commandments, the time will come when the whole land will be filled with towns, cities, and villages, and the earth will bring forth all that is necessary for the support and sustenance of the people thereof. Amen.
(Samuel W. Richards, as quoted in Fate of the Persecutors, pg. 126-132)

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Cruiserdude
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Posts: 5465
Location: SEKS

Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Cruiserdude »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am There has been a lot of discussion recently on the forum about a place of refuge for the Saints. As I read TrueFaith’s thread, I was surprised that no-one had mentioned Mexico. I thought I would share my thoughts. There is an amazing vision by Samuel W. Richards which can be found in “Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith” by N. B. Lundwall, on pages 126-132. In it, he describes the travels of the Saints, which he beheld in a four-hour long vision. I will quote from the relevant portions of his account, and then quote from some other sources which confirm the validity and truthfulness of this vision.

Samuel explains the situation he was in before his vision:

“In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

He agreed to be one of those to go, and subsequently went to meetings with others who had also signed up for the task:

“Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, ‘Stop; rest awhile.’ I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.”

After this, he made it a matter of prayer, and received a four-hour long vision in which he saw a thousand years into the future. He sees the travels of the Saints, and sees them travel from Nauvoo, to Utah, to California:

“No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California.”

Then, he sees something extremely interesting. He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.”

After they return to Jackson County, they enter the Millennium. If true, this vision has some extremely interesting implications for the future of the Saints.

Some additional sources which would confirm this vision:
  • “Before this, the Prophet had foreshadowed the close of his own earthly mission, and the near approach of the time when the Saints in tribulation would find a place of refuge in the far-off vales of the Rocky Mountains, which has already taken place; and also relating still to the future, when a path will be opened for the Saints through Mexico, South America, and to the center Stake of Zion. These, and many more great things were given by him, some of which, as with the ancient disciples, we could not comprehend until fulfilled.” (Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life’s Review, Chapter 7)
  • ““The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. ‘Now’, he said, ‘I will show you the travels of this people’. He then showed our travels through Iowa, and said, ‘Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!’ . . . Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, ‘The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.’” (Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU-S)
  • “The Prophet Joseph said more than 40 years ago that the Latter-day Saints would yet be under the protecting wing of the Republic of Mexico; that, familiarly speaking, the Lord and Satan were as it were, playing a game of checkers; the Lord had one move ahead, and the moves would continue to be made and we would be got down toward Central America; then a backward move would be made and the Lord would sweep the board.” (Jacob Hamblin, as quoted in Jacob Hamblin: The Peacemaker, P. H. Corbett, pg. 416)
  • “It has been asked if we intend to settle more valleys. Why certainly we expect to fill the next valley and then the next, and the next, and so on. It has been the cry of late, through the columns of the newspapers, that the ‘Mormons’ are going into Mexico! That is quite right, we calculate to go there. Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up.” (Brigham Young, JD 18:355, 6 April 1877)
Daniel W. Jones knew that this would happen, and had a desire for it to:
  • “If you will look upon the map of Mexico and find the State of Chihuahua you will observe a district of country showing where several streams head and run off in different directions, some running for hundreds of miles north; so you see, on entering the State of Chihuahua on the north one travels up-hill for several days. The facts are that some of the finest and most fertile mountain valleys of that country are, as shown by measurement, two thousand feet higher than Salt Lake valley. So, if Zion is to be built up in the tops of the mountains, we lack two thousand feet of being there yet. . . . Do you think there will be much of a move from this country to Mexico? I did think so at one time; but I am now under the impression that there will be no great move to that land. What has changed your opinion? Simply this—the people do not wish to go. The inhabitants of Utah have good homes and have made up their minds to accept the situation and stay, and enjoy their wealth and luxuries the same as other people. Then you have given up the idea of ever seeing a prosperous colony of Mormons settle in Mexico, in some of the rich valleys that you have been recommending so long? No, sir; not at all. I still have faith in the move; those who have faith in the Book of Mormon, and have a greater desire to see the words of the Book fulfilled that to have to accumulate wealth, will go. Then you think it will be at the sacrifice of worldly wealth and comforts that people will take hold of the work? Seemingly so, but not in reality. There are many principles revealed to this people that we are slow to put in full practice. Among others United Order, a principle the Prophet Brigham declared would have to be practiced before further advancement would be made by this people. While the majority of the people called Latter-day Saints are inclined to look with suspicion on any move in that direction, the natives of Mexico favor and, in a good degree, practice the principle. A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” (Daniel W. Jones, Forty Years Among the Indians, 1890, pg. 388, 393-394)
The whole of Samuel W. Richards’ vision you can read here:
My brethren, sisters and friends: Quite unexpected to me, prior to coming into this meeting, I have been requested to say a few words to you on some matters touching my history and experience with the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am thankful that I can say I was quite intimate with him while he was living upon the earth. There is a little experience I had with him that perhaps no other person living today could relate. In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith. At the time I thought it a little strange that I should be called upon for a mission of this kind, as I was but a young man, in my teens; but my acquaintance up to that time with the Prophet Joseph was such that I could not say no. I replied, “Yes, I will do anything that the Prophet Joseph wants me to do, that is in my power to do.” Consequently, I gave my name in to be one of a company of twenty-four young men who were selected to travel and explore the Rocky Mountains and find a place for the Church to go to, because the persecution was getting so strong then in Nauvoo that the Prophet Joseph foresaw that the Church would have to leave, retire from the civilized world, and go into the mountains. This was then a wild country.
I am reminded that when I was in Europe, in the early fifties, it was reported to the British Government that I was emigrating many people from Great Britain into a wild country, where they were liable to perish, and it was thought that this emigration ought to be stopped. Because of this I was ordered to appear in London and give an account of what I was doing. I was then presiding over the British Mission, and emigrated many people to this country. I responded to this call, and spent about five hours before a committee of sixteen members of Parliament telling them what I was doing. I had been to this valley myself and knew what it was. I told them that I was sending people to a country where they could own a farm and be as independent in their living as the lords and peers were there. I satisfied them, and they all shook hands with me at the end of our interview and wished me well, and I was invited by a number of them to come again to London and spend some time with them. I speak of this to show that the feeling of the people at that time was that this was a wild country, and we were coming here to perish.
It was the purpose of the Prophet Joseph to come here and locate with his people. He organized this company and held weekly meetings with them for several weeks in Nauvoo, and when he had them sufficiently instructed, as he thought, to properly understand what was to be the character of their mission and fit-out, he went across the river and made a start to go toward the mountains. It was his intention to go to the mountains with us, as a company of pioneers. But he was followed by those who did not like the idea of his leaving, and while they were pleading with him to return, he told them, “If I go back, I go as a lamb to the slaughter.” Nevertheless, they determined he should return, and he went back to Nauvoo. From there he went to Carthage, and we all know the history of what followed.
Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, “Stop; rest awhile.” I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.
No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California. Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.
Now, all this I saw while I was sleeping, and it was so impressed upon me that it can never be forgotten. I saw that this was the result of the Latter-day Saints coming to these valleys of the mountains and following the direction that the Prophet Joseph indicated. I could tell a long story about this matter, if I had the time to do it, but it is not best that I should. I wish, however, to make the statement distinctly, that this coming to the mountains of the Saints of God and establishing themselves here was under the special direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Although there are those who say to the contrary, this is my testimony. The Prophet Joseph Smith had all this planned, and if he had been allowed to have had his way, I believe he might have been with us even today. He would certainly have gone with that company to these mountains and have located the people. I was one of that company, and I think I have the names of the rest. However, the conditions became so severe at Nauvoo that the people had to pick up and leave in a body, before there was time for this company to make the proposed exploration. The Prophet Joseph and his brother, Hyrum, were martyred in Carthage, and the mob would not let the people remain in Nauvoo.
These are the facts in regard to this matter, and I am proud and thankful that I know of these things, and am glad that the Saints are building up these valleys of the mountains as I saw them built up in vision. If the people of God will only go on and keep His commandments, the time will come when the whole land will be filled with towns, cities, and villages, and the earth will bring forth all that is necessary for the support and sustenance of the people thereof. Amen.
(Samuel W. Richards, as quoted in Fate of the Persecutors, pg. 126-132)
These are my kind of people.

"A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.”
The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe.
😉👍

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Subcomandante
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4428

Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Subcomandante »

Cruiserdude wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:23 am
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am There has been a lot of discussion recently on the forum about a place of refuge for the Saints. As I read TrueFaith’s thread, I was surprised that no-one had mentioned Mexico. I thought I would share my thoughts. There is an amazing vision by Samuel W. Richards which can be found in “Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith” by N. B. Lundwall, on pages 126-132. In it, he describes the travels of the Saints, which he beheld in a four-hour long vision. I will quote from the relevant portions of his account, and then quote from some other sources which confirm the validity and truthfulness of this vision.

Samuel explains the situation he was in before his vision:

“In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

He agreed to be one of those to go, and subsequently went to meetings with others who had also signed up for the task:

“Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, ‘Stop; rest awhile.’ I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.”

After this, he made it a matter of prayer, and received a four-hour long vision in which he saw a thousand years into the future. He sees the travels of the Saints, and sees them travel from Nauvoo, to Utah, to California:

“No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California.”

Then, he sees something extremely interesting. He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.”

After they return to Jackson County, they enter the Millennium. If true, this vision has some extremely interesting implications for the future of the Saints.

Some additional sources which would confirm this vision:
  • “Before this, the Prophet had foreshadowed the close of his own earthly mission, and the near approach of the time when the Saints in tribulation would find a place of refuge in the far-off vales of the Rocky Mountains, which has already taken place; and also relating still to the future, when a path will be opened for the Saints through Mexico, South America, and to the center Stake of Zion. These, and many more great things were given by him, some of which, as with the ancient disciples, we could not comprehend until fulfilled.” (Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life’s Review, Chapter 7)
  • ““The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. ‘Now’, he said, ‘I will show you the travels of this people’. He then showed our travels through Iowa, and said, ‘Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!’ . . . Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, ‘The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.’” (Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU-S)
  • “The Prophet Joseph said more than 40 years ago that the Latter-day Saints would yet be under the protecting wing of the Republic of Mexico; that, familiarly speaking, the Lord and Satan were as it were, playing a game of checkers; the Lord had one move ahead, and the moves would continue to be made and we would be got down toward Central America; then a backward move would be made and the Lord would sweep the board.” (Jacob Hamblin, as quoted in Jacob Hamblin: The Peacemaker, P. H. Corbett, pg. 416)
  • “It has been asked if we intend to settle more valleys. Why certainly we expect to fill the next valley and then the next, and the next, and so on. It has been the cry of late, through the columns of the newspapers, that the ‘Mormons’ are going into Mexico! That is quite right, we calculate to go there. Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up.” (Brigham Young, JD 18:355, 6 April 1877)
Daniel W. Jones knew that this would happen, and had a desire for it to:
  • “If you will look upon the map of Mexico and find the State of Chihuahua you will observe a district of country showing where several streams head and run off in different directions, some running for hundreds of miles north; so you see, on entering the State of Chihuahua on the north one travels up-hill for several days. The facts are that some of the finest and most fertile mountain valleys of that country are, as shown by measurement, two thousand feet higher than Salt Lake valley. So, if Zion is to be built up in the tops of the mountains, we lack two thousand feet of being there yet. . . . Do you think there will be much of a move from this country to Mexico? I did think so at one time; but I am now under the impression that there will be no great move to that land. What has changed your opinion? Simply this—the people do not wish to go. The inhabitants of Utah have good homes and have made up their minds to accept the situation and stay, and enjoy their wealth and luxuries the same as other people. Then you have given up the idea of ever seeing a prosperous colony of Mormons settle in Mexico, in some of the rich valleys that you have been recommending so long? No, sir; not at all. I still have faith in the move; those who have faith in the Book of Mormon, and have a greater desire to see the words of the Book fulfilled that to have to accumulate wealth, will go. Then you think it will be at the sacrifice of worldly wealth and comforts that people will take hold of the work? Seemingly so, but not in reality. There are many principles revealed to this people that we are slow to put in full practice. Among others United Order, a principle the Prophet Brigham declared would have to be practiced before further advancement would be made by this people. While the majority of the people called Latter-day Saints are inclined to look with suspicion on any move in that direction, the natives of Mexico favor and, in a good degree, practice the principle. A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” (Daniel W. Jones, Forty Years Among the Indians, 1890, pg. 388, 393-394)
The whole of Samuel W. Richards’ vision you can read here:
My brethren, sisters and friends: Quite unexpected to me, prior to coming into this meeting, I have been requested to say a few words to you on some matters touching my history and experience with the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am thankful that I can say I was quite intimate with him while he was living upon the earth. There is a little experience I had with him that perhaps no other person living today could relate. In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith. At the time I thought it a little strange that I should be called upon for a mission of this kind, as I was but a young man, in my teens; but my acquaintance up to that time with the Prophet Joseph was such that I could not say no. I replied, “Yes, I will do anything that the Prophet Joseph wants me to do, that is in my power to do.” Consequently, I gave my name in to be one of a company of twenty-four young men who were selected to travel and explore the Rocky Mountains and find a place for the Church to go to, because the persecution was getting so strong then in Nauvoo that the Prophet Joseph foresaw that the Church would have to leave, retire from the civilized world, and go into the mountains. This was then a wild country.
I am reminded that when I was in Europe, in the early fifties, it was reported to the British Government that I was emigrating many people from Great Britain into a wild country, where they were liable to perish, and it was thought that this emigration ought to be stopped. Because of this I was ordered to appear in London and give an account of what I was doing. I was then presiding over the British Mission, and emigrated many people to this country. I responded to this call, and spent about five hours before a committee of sixteen members of Parliament telling them what I was doing. I had been to this valley myself and knew what it was. I told them that I was sending people to a country where they could own a farm and be as independent in their living as the lords and peers were there. I satisfied them, and they all shook hands with me at the end of our interview and wished me well, and I was invited by a number of them to come again to London and spend some time with them. I speak of this to show that the feeling of the people at that time was that this was a wild country, and we were coming here to perish.
It was the purpose of the Prophet Joseph to come here and locate with his people. He organized this company and held weekly meetings with them for several weeks in Nauvoo, and when he had them sufficiently instructed, as he thought, to properly understand what was to be the character of their mission and fit-out, he went across the river and made a start to go toward the mountains. It was his intention to go to the mountains with us, as a company of pioneers. But he was followed by those who did not like the idea of his leaving, and while they were pleading with him to return, he told them, “If I go back, I go as a lamb to the slaughter.” Nevertheless, they determined he should return, and he went back to Nauvoo. From there he went to Carthage, and we all know the history of what followed.
Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, “Stop; rest awhile.” I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.
No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California. Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.
Now, all this I saw while I was sleeping, and it was so impressed upon me that it can never be forgotten. I saw that this was the result of the Latter-day Saints coming to these valleys of the mountains and following the direction that the Prophet Joseph indicated. I could tell a long story about this matter, if I had the time to do it, but it is not best that I should. I wish, however, to make the statement distinctly, that this coming to the mountains of the Saints of God and establishing themselves here was under the special direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Although there are those who say to the contrary, this is my testimony. The Prophet Joseph Smith had all this planned, and if he had been allowed to have had his way, I believe he might have been with us even today. He would certainly have gone with that company to these mountains and have located the people. I was one of that company, and I think I have the names of the rest. However, the conditions became so severe at Nauvoo that the people had to pick up and leave in a body, before there was time for this company to make the proposed exploration. The Prophet Joseph and his brother, Hyrum, were martyred in Carthage, and the mob would not let the people remain in Nauvoo.
These are the facts in regard to this matter, and I am proud and thankful that I know of these things, and am glad that the Saints are building up these valleys of the mountains as I saw them built up in vision. If the people of God will only go on and keep His commandments, the time will come when the whole land will be filled with towns, cities, and villages, and the earth will bring forth all that is necessary for the support and sustenance of the people thereof. Amen.
(Samuel W. Richards, as quoted in Fate of the Persecutors, pg. 126-132)
These are my kind of people.

"A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.”
The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe.
😉👍
Nealticán in Puebla and Ozumba in Mexico State just across the volcanoes from Nealticán are like this. Small towns but with tons of faithful members. Even just to the east, in a tiny town named Ometoxtla, there used to be many people that would go up to Arizona because the temple was there. But many have since returned to Ometoxtla because they do not like how woke everyone has become there. They feel like they will be called to Zion, perhaps carrying some stuff with them, but now is not the time.

Now, given, this is central Mexico and not northern Mexico. But the psyche of the people that live in the smaller communities is quite different than what you would see in the bigger cities. A mirror image of the Colonies in Chihuahua and Sonora states.

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Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1441

Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am There has been a lot of discussion recently on the forum about a place of refuge for the Saints. As I read TrueFaith’s thread, I was surprised that no-one had mentioned Mexico. I thought I would share my thoughts. There is an amazing vision by Samuel W. Richards which can be found in “Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith” by N. B. Lundwall, on pages 126-132. In it, he describes the travels of the Saints, which he beheld in a four-hour long vision. I will quote from the relevant portions of his account, and then quote from some other sources which confirm the validity and truthfulness of this vision.

Samuel explains the situation he was in before his vision:

“In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

He agreed to be one of those to go, and subsequently went to meetings with others who had also signed up for the task:

“Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, ‘Stop; rest awhile.’ I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.”

After this, he made it a matter of prayer, and received a four-hour long vision in which he saw a thousand years into the future. He sees the travels of the Saints, and sees them travel from Nauvoo, to Utah, to California:

“No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California.”

Then, he sees something extremely interesting. He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.”

After they return to Jackson County, they enter the Millennium. If true, this vision has some extremely interesting implications for the future of the Saints.

Some additional sources which would confirm this vision:
  • “Before this, the Prophet had foreshadowed the close of his own earthly mission, and the near approach of the time when the Saints in tribulation would find a place of refuge in the far-off vales of the Rocky Mountains, which has already taken place; and also relating still to the future, when a path will be opened for the Saints through Mexico, South America, and to the center Stake of Zion. These, and many more great things were given by him, some of which, as with the ancient disciples, we could not comprehend until fulfilled.” (Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life’s Review, Chapter 7)
  • ““The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. ‘Now’, he said, ‘I will show you the travels of this people’. He then showed our travels through Iowa, and said, ‘Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!’ . . . Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, ‘The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.’” (Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU-S)
  • “The Prophet Joseph said more than 40 years ago that the Latter-day Saints would yet be under the protecting wing of the Republic of Mexico; that, familiarly speaking, the Lord and Satan were as it were, playing a game of checkers; the Lord had one move ahead, and the moves would continue to be made and we would be got down toward Central America; then a backward move would be made and the Lord would sweep the board.” (Jacob Hamblin, as quoted in Jacob Hamblin: The Peacemaker, P. H. Corbett, pg. 416)
  • “It has been asked if we intend to settle more valleys. Why certainly we expect to fill the next valley and then the next, and the next, and so on. It has been the cry of late, through the columns of the newspapers, that the ‘Mormons’ are going into Mexico! That is quite right, we calculate to go there. Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up.” (Brigham Young, JD 18:355, 6 April 1877)
Daniel W. Jones knew that this would happen, and had a desire for it to:
  • “If you will look upon the map of Mexico and find the State of Chihuahua you will observe a district of country showing where several streams head and run off in different directions, some running for hundreds of miles north; so you see, on entering the State of Chihuahua on the north one travels up-hill for several days. The facts are that some of the finest and most fertile mountain valleys of that country are, as shown by measurement, two thousand feet higher than Salt Lake valley. So, if Zion is to be built up in the tops of the mountains, we lack two thousand feet of being there yet. . . . Do you think there will be much of a move from this country to Mexico? I did think so at one time; but I am now under the impression that there will be no great move to that land. What has changed your opinion? Simply this—the people do not wish to go. The inhabitants of Utah have good homes and have made up their minds to accept the situation and stay, and enjoy their wealth and luxuries the same as other people. Then you have given up the idea of ever seeing a prosperous colony of Mormons settle in Mexico, in some of the rich valleys that you have been recommending so long? No, sir; not at all. I still have faith in the move; those who have faith in the Book of Mormon, and have a greater desire to see the words of the Book fulfilled that to have to accumulate wealth, will go. Then you think it will be at the sacrifice of worldly wealth and comforts that people will take hold of the work? Seemingly so, but not in reality. There are many principles revealed to this people that we are slow to put in full practice. Among others United Order, a principle the Prophet Brigham declared would have to be practiced before further advancement would be made by this people. While the majority of the people called Latter-day Saints are inclined to look with suspicion on any move in that direction, the natives of Mexico favor and, in a good degree, practice the principle. A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” (Daniel W. Jones, Forty Years Among the Indians, 1890, pg. 388, 393-394)
The whole of Samuel W. Richards’ vision you can read here:
My brethren, sisters and friends: Quite unexpected to me, prior to coming into this meeting, I have been requested to say a few words to you on some matters touching my history and experience with the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am thankful that I can say I was quite intimate with him while he was living upon the earth. There is a little experience I had with him that perhaps no other person living today could relate. In the winter of 1843-44, about six months prior to the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a messenger was sent to me from Nauvoo to ask if I would be one of a company of pioneers to explore the Rocky Mountains and to find a place for the Church to go. That request came from the Prophet Joseph Smith. At the time I thought it a little strange that I should be called upon for a mission of this kind, as I was but a young man, in my teens; but my acquaintance up to that time with the Prophet Joseph was such that I could not say no. I replied, “Yes, I will do anything that the Prophet Joseph wants me to do, that is in my power to do.” Consequently, I gave my name in to be one of a company of twenty-four young men who were selected to travel and explore the Rocky Mountains and find a place for the Church to go to, because the persecution was getting so strong then in Nauvoo that the Prophet Joseph foresaw that the Church would have to leave, retire from the civilized world, and go into the mountains. This was then a wild country.
I am reminded that when I was in Europe, in the early fifties, it was reported to the British Government that I was emigrating many people from Great Britain into a wild country, where they were liable to perish, and it was thought that this emigration ought to be stopped. Because of this I was ordered to appear in London and give an account of what I was doing. I was then presiding over the British Mission, and emigrated many people to this country. I responded to this call, and spent about five hours before a committee of sixteen members of Parliament telling them what I was doing. I had been to this valley myself and knew what it was. I told them that I was sending people to a country where they could own a farm and be as independent in their living as the lords and peers were there. I satisfied them, and they all shook hands with me at the end of our interview and wished me well, and I was invited by a number of them to come again to London and spend some time with them. I speak of this to show that the feeling of the people at that time was that this was a wild country, and we were coming here to perish.
It was the purpose of the Prophet Joseph to come here and locate with his people. He organized this company and held weekly meetings with them for several weeks in Nauvoo, and when he had them sufficiently instructed, as he thought, to properly understand what was to be the character of their mission and fit-out, he went across the river and made a start to go toward the mountains. It was his intention to go to the mountains with us, as a company of pioneers. But he was followed by those who did not like the idea of his leaving, and while they were pleading with him to return, he told them, “If I go back, I go as a lamb to the slaughter.” Nevertheless, they determined he should return, and he went back to Nauvoo. From there he went to Carthage, and we all know the history of what followed.
Suffice it to say, I attended four meetings of this company and at one of them, which was in charge of Hyrum Smith, and three or four of the Twelve were also present, it was said that Joseph the Prophet had remarked that he wanted young men for that mission who could go upon the mountains and talk with God face to face, as Moses did upon Mount Sinai. When I heard that statement, I felt in my soul that I was not the one to go; and just before the meeting closed I got up out of my seat for the purpose of going to Brother Hyrum Smith and telling him I was not the one to go for I did not feel that I could meet these conditions, but as I got up there was a voice came to me and I heard it distinctly as from one standing by my side, saying, “Stop; rest awhile.” I took my seat again, and instead of telling the Prophet Hyrum that I did not feel I could go, I went home, and before retiring I knelt by my bedside and prayed to my heavenly Father. If I ever prayed in earnest it was then, that I might know before morning whether I was a suitable one to go on that expedition, under the terms specified. The idea of going into the mountains and talking with God face to face, as Moses did on Mount Sinai, was more than I, as a boy, could think of encountering.
No one perhaps need wonder that I should shrink from such a consideration. I retired to my bed and remained there about four hours, and during that four hours I got the answer to my prayer, and when I awoke I was prepared to go upon that journey and do just as the Prophet wanted me to do. During that four hours I saw all that I expect to see if I should live a thousand years. Someone came to me and told me where to go, and I performed that journey that night while I lay upon my bed. I came to this valley first. I don't know how I got here, but I went down through these valleys and into Southern California. It had been stated that possibly we might have to go that far. When I came here I had to pass four sentinels, and in passing them I gave a countersign, which I got direct from heaven at the time it was needed. I passed them all, and went on down into Southern California. Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed. When this was done, the vision continued, and I went and laid down my body in the ground, and my spirit left this tabernacle. Then I traversed this continent from end to end. I saw the Garden of Eden as it was in the beginning and as it will be restored again. It was a land filled with verdure and vegetation, and with all manner of fruits, on which man was living. I saw it filled with cities, towns and villages, and people happy, living under the administration of divine providence. It was a Garden of Eden in very deed.
Now, all this I saw while I was sleeping, and it was so impressed upon me that it can never be forgotten. I saw that this was the result of the Latter-day Saints coming to these valleys of the mountains and following the direction that the Prophet Joseph indicated. I could tell a long story about this matter, if I had the time to do it, but it is not best that I should. I wish, however, to make the statement distinctly, that this coming to the mountains of the Saints of God and establishing themselves here was under the special direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Although there are those who say to the contrary, this is my testimony. The Prophet Joseph Smith had all this planned, and if he had been allowed to have had his way, I believe he might have been with us even today. He would certainly have gone with that company to these mountains and have located the people. I was one of that company, and I think I have the names of the rest. However, the conditions became so severe at Nauvoo that the people had to pick up and leave in a body, before there was time for this company to make the proposed exploration. The Prophet Joseph and his brother, Hyrum, were martyred in Carthage, and the mob would not let the people remain in Nauvoo.
These are the facts in regard to this matter, and I am proud and thankful that I know of these things, and am glad that the Saints are building up these valleys of the mountains as I saw them built up in vision. If the people of God will only go on and keep His commandments, the time will come when the whole land will be filled with towns, cities, and villages, and the earth will bring forth all that is necessary for the support and sustenance of the people thereof. Amen.
(Samuel W. Richards, as quoted in Fate of the Persecutors, pg. 126-132)
I googled the mountains of Chihuahua; just beautiful.

Do you think Samuel W. Richards', BF Johnson's, and Mosiah Hancock's remarks most likely alluded to the Mormon colonies in Mexico, especially considering how many fled there to escape persecution for polygamy?

On the other hand, though, that Daniel W. Jones quote was very intriguing. His remarks about Chihuahua and then those other locations Subcomandante referred to led to me spending some time in Google Maps. Definitely worth consideration. I also like the elevation aspect of the area. Is there any skiing down there, though? ;-)

Thanks for sharing this.

JohnnyL
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by JohnnyL »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am ... He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed...
Where does it say "the Saints would travel to Mexico"? It doesn't.

None of the other quotes say that the Saints as a body would go, either. Some Saints did go--the "Mormon Colonies"; some went because of polygamy; some are still there.

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TheChristian
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by TheChristian »

True refuge lies in prayer, then one is in the very Bosom of Jesus .........

Wether one be in the desert, or in the midst of a huge town all alone, wether one be in prison, or a mountain top, it matters not for if one bows the heart in prayer he/she has access to the very throne of Christ Jesus, whom sends His Spirit readily apon such souls, bestowing comfort and mercy and a foretaste of heaven...........

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Luke
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Luke »

JohnnyL wrote: February 11th, 2022, 8:19 am
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am ... He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed...
Where does it say "the Saints would travel to Mexico"? It doesn't.

None of the other quotes say that the Saints as a body would go, either. Some Saints did go--the "Mormon Colonies"; some went because of polygamy; some are still there.
Please re-read the quotes because I think it seems that you didn’t read them, otherwise you would have picked up on what they are saying in plain English.

I have never said that ALL Saints would be there either.

JohnnyL
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by JohnnyL »

Luke wrote: February 11th, 2022, 9:48 am
JohnnyL wrote: February 11th, 2022, 8:19 am
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:02 am ... He sees that the Saints would then travel into Mexico, specifically the northern part of Mexico. From here, he says, they went from Mexico back to Jackson County:

“Then I was prompted to go farther, and I went into the northern part of Mexico. I returned from there to Jackson County, Missouri, and there I stayed and helped build the temple. I saw the temple thoroughly completed; in fact, I labored upon it until it was completed...
Where does it say "the Saints would travel to Mexico"? It doesn't.

None of the other quotes say that the Saints as a body would go, either. Some Saints did go--the "Mormon Colonies"; some went because of polygamy; some are still there.
Please re-read the quotes because I think it seems that you didn’t read them, otherwise you would have picked up on what they are saying in plain English.

I have never said that ALL Saints would be there either.
The main one doesn't even say any Saints, though one could possibly infer it.

I think your "plain English" is not the same meaning as my "plain English".

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Cruiserdude
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Cruiserdude »

TheChristian wrote: February 11th, 2022, 9:35 am True refuge lies in prayer, then one is in the very Bosom of Jesus .........

Wether one be in the desert, or in the midst of a huge town all alone, wether one be in prison, or a mountain top, it matters not for if one bows the heart in prayer he/she has access to the very throne of Christ Jesus, whom sends His Spirit readily apon such souls, bestowing comfort and mercy and a foretaste of heaven...........
I most definitely enjoy reading/discussing, and also believe in some of, the different visions and revelations many men of God have received.
Yet as you state, (the Spirit repeatedly burns in my heart and soul), THE underlying truth upon which ALL TRUTHS are rooted/based: that refuge from 'Babylon' and this world is available to ANY and all who seek it, and only comes through our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.

larsenb
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by larsenb »

Cruiserdude wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:23 am . . . . . These are my kind of people.

"A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” . . . . .
This farming method is called milpa farming. I read a description of it years ago and was impressed with how communal the effort was. And it wasn't just a slash-and-burn/crop rotation method (usually, beans, squash and corn), which is the generalized meaning the word has taken on in recent years.

As I recall, the land was not 'owned' per se, but held communally and farmed the same way, with everyone sharing in the proceeds, and the method was still widely practices throughout regions in southern Mexico.

The Wiki article on the topic echoes the sociological/communal aspects of milpa farming where it says:

"The concept of milpa is a sociocultural construct rather than simply a system of agriculture. It involves complex interactions and relationships between farmers, as well as distinct personal relationships with both the crops and land. For example, it has been noted that "the making of milpa is the central, most sacred act, one which binds together the family, the community, the universe...[it] forms the core institution of Indian society in Mesoamerica and its religious and social importance often appear to exceed its nutritional and economic importance."[4]"

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Subcomandante
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Subcomandante »

larsenb wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:22 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 10:23 am . . . . . These are my kind of people.

"A short description of their mode of farming will illustrate this. In the spring, when planting time comes, all join together and go into the field of one party and plow and put in the seed; the poor man who has no cattle shares the same as the wealthy. This they continue until all the fields of the village are planted. If any lack seed it is loaned to them. If there is a scarcity of provisions the first field products fit for use, instead of being sold at an exorbitant price, become common property, and all the hungry partake of the blessing. When the crops are gathered in the owner of the early field receives such as his neighbors feel free to give him, which is always liberal in quantity.” . . . . .
This farming method is called milpa farming. I read a description of it years ago and was impressed with how communal the effort was. And it wasn't just a slash-and-burn/crop rotation method (usually, beans, squash and corn), which is the generalized meaning the word has taken on in recent years.

As I recall, the land was not 'owned' per se, but held communally and farmed the same way, with everyone sharing in the proceeds, and the method was still widely practices throughout regions in southern Mexico.

The Wiki article on the topic echoes the sociological/communal aspects of milpa farming where it says:

"The concept of milpa is a sociocultural construct rather than simply a system of agriculture. It involves complex interactions and relationships between farmers, as well as distinct personal relationships with both the crops and land. For example, it has been noted that "the making of milpa is the central, most sacred act, one which binds together the family, the community, the universe...[it] forms the core institution of Indian society in Mesoamerica and its religious and social importance often appear to exceed its nutritional and economic importance."[4]"
The milpas are very common in my region of Mexico too, though you are correct; in Oaxaca and Chiapas, this method is very much in use. Tabasco too, albeit there is a lot more rainforest and most of the land is swampy.

Puebla, Morelos, Mexico State, and Tlaxcala are the beneficiaries of receiving light to moderate ashfall from the Popocatepetl volcano, which makes that soil especially fertile.

And you could ask Luke not only about Nuevo Casas Grandes (the region where the Colonies are at) but also the Cuauhtemoc valley to the south or Ciudad Delicias on the road to Torreón. The latter place is where the Alpura milk is made in Mexico, and Lala is made further south in the Laguna region of Torreón and Gomez Palacio.

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Niemand
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Niemand »

Unstable government and petty corruption may prove to be useful as a shelter.

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Being There
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Being There »

Niemand wrote: February 12th, 2022, 7:37 am Unstable government and petty corruption may prove to be useful as a shelter.
are you sure you're not talking about the U.S..

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Niemand
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Re: From Mexico back to Jackson County - An Incredible Vision

Post by Niemand »

Being There wrote: February 16th, 2022, 6:36 am
Niemand wrote: February 12th, 2022, 7:37 am Unstable government and petty corruption may prove to be useful as a shelter.
are you sure you're not talking about the U.S..
A lot of Mexico makes the USA look functional. The difference is that it is on the surface.

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