Does Proxy Work Bother You?

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Havenseeker
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Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Havenseeker »

I would like to get some other opinions on this topic. I have mixed feelings about temple work and since I have found people on this forum to have interesting POVs I would like to present my quandary.

The temple ordinances bothered me from the beginning. As I later continued to attend and do proxy work I had two spiritual interactions:

1) A very lengthy interaction with a Sister where I was the vessel for a message from the Spirit. This was a distinctly positive experience - the first, and only, I’d ever had with such clarity from the Holy Ghost.

2) During a sealing, I was “visited” by one of the names that I was doing proxy work for. It was a distinctly unpleasant interaction that left me pondering the nature of the work we do in the Temple.

I am a slow thinker. I chew on ideas, sometimes for years, to come to an understanding of deep truths. So here are my thoughts:

We are told in the scriptures to avoid familiar spirits, witchcraft, and medium work (channeling spirits), yet proxy work is all about channeling spirits. We call them to us and invite them into our bodies (Including the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit too.)

Now maybe in most cases it is benign, but in my case, it was a very upset and angry spirit that rattled around inside my space. From my understanding of the occult, I was put in a very spiritually dangerous situation. Fortunately for me, I am the equivalent to spiritual lead, so the visitor could not stay long, but it seemed irresponsible of the Church to have put me in such a delicate situation in the first place.

It seems to me that proxy work is in direct opposition to the scriptures, but if for some reason it’s still okay, it seems wrong/irresponsible to channel spirits without a working knowledge of spiritual self defense.

And so here’s the crux of this post: Is proxy work doing the duty of a Medium? Should we really be channeling spirits, especially when we are not taught how to protect ourselves from them? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem?

~Havenseeker

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Luke
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Luke »

There’s a reason why JS said that when we do proxy work, the person must be revealed to us first, “lest we run too far”

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Robin Hood
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Robin Hood »

Havenseeker wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 am I would like to get some other opinions on this topic. I have mixed feelings about temple work and since I have found people on this forum to have interesting POVs I would like to present my quandary.

The temple ordinances bothered me from the beginning. As I later continued to attend and do proxy work I had two spiritual interactions:

1) A very lengthy interaction with a Sister where I was the vessel for a message from the Spirit. This was a distinctly positive experience - the first, and only, I’d ever had with such clarity from the Holy Ghost.

2) During a sealing, I was “visited” by one of the names that I was doing proxy work for. It was a distinctly unpleasant interaction that left me pondering the nature of the work we do in the Temple.

I am a slow thinker. I chew on ideas, sometimes for years, to come to an understanding of deep truths. So here are my thoughts:

We are told in the scriptures to avoid familiar spirits, witchcraft, and medium work (channeling spirits), yet proxy work is all about channeling spirits. We call them to us and invite them into our bodies (Including the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit too.)

Now maybe in most cases it is benign, but in my case, it was a very upset and angry spirit that rattled around inside my space. From my understanding of the occult, I was put in a very spiritually dangerous situation. Fortunately for me, I am the equivalent to spiritual lead, so the visitor could not stay long, but it seemed irresponsible of the Church to have put me in such a delicate situation in the first place.

It seems to me that proxy work is in direct opposition to the scriptures, but if for some reason it’s still okay, it seems wrong/irresponsible to channel spirits without a working knowledge of spiritual self defense.

And so here’s the crux of this post: Is proxy work doing the duty of a Medium? Should we really be channeling spirits, especially when we are not taught how to protect ourselves from them? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem?

~Havenseeker
A very interesting perspective.
I have always had mixed feelings regarding the principle of temple work.
I don't have much of a problem with baptisms for the dead, but am a little unsure of everything else, especially endowments for the dead.
I cannot for the life of me understand why we perform endowments for those who have passed away. They are still perfectly able to make promises and covenants; why do I have to do it for them?

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ransomme
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by ransomme »

I was recently set apart as an ordinance worker. Hopefully I can have some experiences one way or the other so I could know better for myself. Although the ceremony itself means more to me now than it did before, especially when I did my own endowment, because I understand it much better now.

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XEmilyX
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by XEmilyX »

I love topics about spirits.
I think you are misunderstanding your experience with that not so great spirit. Evil spirits can and do get into the temple because of people they attach to. Hence bad spiritual experiences with the spirits in there. Some people even receive wrong revelation in there as well from these spirits. It could be that you were not experiencing the actual person who was getting sealed or whatever you were doing for them, and you might have been dealing with a bad spirit who was trying to confuse you into thinking that the temple is bad.
If you're gifted in hearing spirits, then I caution you (because I do hear them as well) the caution is that if you cannot see them, always ask who their master is. Because you cannot ask to shake their hand and detect who they are. They usually don't lie in this area, I guess they can, but ask. Usually I've found that when I ask a spirit that I cannot see but can hear this question they will answer "Satan," or "Jesus" However it's still something that's not "for sure". So I would be careful, unless you feel the spirit with you talking to them strongly then I recommend casting out. Discernment 501 not 101, Evil spirits can teach true doctrine, say things like "read your scriptures", and give you certain feelings that can be mistaken for the spirit if not focused on carefully. This is why there can be false prophets, false visions, false teachings that seem good. As long as you're following THEM in the end then the demons don't care what they use. Usually they have people create scriptures or followings or "thus sayeth the Lord" prophecies with people who are a little more advanced, or if they can hear spirits. If you cannot see the spirit, always be on guard.
People don't believe that evil spirits and unclean spirits can enter the temple when they do.
I don't believe that channeling spirits in this way is unsafe, as in doing baptisms for the dead.
I do however recommend not seeking out BAD spirits for answers. For obvious reasons. This is what psychics do, they don't realize how quickly spirits from the departed get enlisted into Satan's ranks right after they die. So they believe they're "wandering" spirits, that don't really have an agenda. FALSE. I believe that you're either in Satan's realm and taking orders from him or in God's. No grey area because if you've ever seen their Kingdoms (Which i haven't) but I've heard of people who have, their kingdoms are so advanced, organized and Satan's is Hell bent on getting your soul, then I'm pretty sure they would be put into some sort of mission quickly after they leave this life. Leaving no room for "wanderers".
So, that being said don't seek out talking to spirits that are BAD. I don't think speaking to your invisible angels in your presence is a bad thing, they're from the light they're good.

So do we channel spirits already? Meaning do we hear spirits already? YES. Because spirits answer our questions to us all the time. They come in the form of thoughts. You know that random little good thought you get sometimes? or those terrible thoughts about yourself? Usually those are from good or bad spirits. So technically you're channeling spirits unawares. However, I wouldn't use witchcraft to channel spirits which is probably the main meaning behind scriptures that ask not to channel spirits or whatever. Calling upon evil angels, demons, and things like that are not good.

But people will get mad at people who naturally have this ability to hear spirits. They think "Oh you're doing witchcraft" "You're channeling spirits," I've been looking up what channeling really means and it can mean many different things, which include spiritual gifts which aren't bad.

"In other words, most people think of trance channeling, where a person allows a supposed entity (deceased spirits, aliens, angels, higher self, etc.) to use their body as a vehicle to communicate." https://noetic.org/blog/what-is-channeling/

Channeling and having something possess your body to speak through your mouth is bad. Good spirits never possess your body. The body is meant to have one spirit not many.
So this is probably the channeling that the bible speaks of that we shouldn't do. Because speaking to spirits that are good is not channeling it's speaking with God.

Anyways, have a nice day. :)

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 2:54 am There’s a reason why JS said that when we do proxy work, the person must be revealed to us first, “lest we run too far”
Do you have the citation for that. It doesn't surprise me, but a citation would be awesome.

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Luke
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Luke »

John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:23 pm
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 2:54 am There’s a reason why JS said that when we do proxy work, the person must be revealed to us first, “lest we run too far”
Do you have the citation for that. It doesn't surprise me, but a citation would be awesome.
"In regard to the law of the Priesthood, there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments; and the Lord has said this shall be the place for the baptisms for the dead. Every man that has been baptized and belongs to the kingdom has a right to be baptized for those who have gone before; and as soon as the law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free. A man may act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but it must first be revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 367, 2 May 1844)

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Robin Hood wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 3:20 am
Havenseeker wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 am I would like to get some other opinions on this topic. I have mixed feelings about temple work and since I have found people on this forum to have interesting POVs I would like to present my quandary.

The temple ordinances bothered me from the beginning. As I later continued to attend and do proxy work I had two spiritual interactions:

1) A very lengthy interaction with a Sister where I was the vessel for a message from the Spirit. This was a distinctly positive experience - the first, and only, I’d ever had with such clarity from the Holy Ghost.

2) During a sealing, I was “visited” by one of the names that I was doing proxy work for. It was a distinctly unpleasant interaction that left me pondering the nature of the work we do in the Temple.

I am a slow thinker. I chew on ideas, sometimes for years, to come to an understanding of deep truths. So here are my thoughts:

We are told in the scriptures to avoid familiar spirits, witchcraft, and medium work (channeling spirits), yet proxy work is all about channeling spirits. We call them to us and invite them into our bodies (Including the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit too.)

Now maybe in most cases it is benign, but in my case, it was a very upset and angry spirit that rattled around inside my space. From my understanding of the occult, I was put in a very spiritually dangerous situation. Fortunately for me, I am the equivalent to spiritual lead, so the visitor could not stay long, but it seemed irresponsible of the Church to have put me in such a delicate situation in the first place.

It seems to me that proxy work is in direct opposition to the scriptures, but if for some reason it’s still okay, it seems wrong/irresponsible to channel spirits without a working knowledge of spiritual self defense.

And so here’s the crux of this post: Is proxy work doing the duty of a Medium? Should we really be channeling spirits, especially when we are not taught how to protect ourselves from them? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem?

~Havenseeker
A very interesting perspective.
I have always had mixed feelings regarding the principle of temple work.
I don't have much of a problem with baptisms for the dead, but am a little unsure of everything else, especially endowments for the dead.
I cannot for the life of me understand why we perform endowments for those who have passed away. They are still perfectly able to make promises and covenants; why do I have to do it for them?
It makes less sense when you realize the purpose of the endowment was to empower individuals with the power of God in their missionary work to the nations. Furthermore, from my understanding the endowment shows a pattern in order to eventually "pierce" the veil. The veil is the flesh... When you are dead you don't "pierce" the veil. IT was also something that wasn't established until I think it was a couple decades or more after Joseph's death - same with the way we do sealings. So like you I am unsure and lean towards not useful with tthe exception of baptisms for the dead, but I personally beleive that we are way too broad in how we do it and we should have more revelation on who to do it for.

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 pm
John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:23 pm
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 2:54 am There’s a reason why JS said that when we do proxy work, the person must be revealed to us first, “lest we run too far”
Do you have the citation for that. It doesn't surprise me, but a citation would be awesome.
"In regard to the law of the Priesthood, there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments; and the Lord has said this shall be the place for the baptisms for the dead. Every man that has been baptized and belongs to the kingdom has a right to be baptized for those who have gone before; and as soon as the law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free. A man may act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but it must first be revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 367, 2 May 1844)
I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't really trust TPJS - I've found a lot of inconsistencies - I'll try and look it up in the Joseph Smith Papers if you don't have the original citation, but I do appreciate the date - it will give me something to start with.

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Luke
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Luke »

John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:38 pm
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 pm
John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:23 pm
Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 2:54 am There’s a reason why JS said that when we do proxy work, the person must be revealed to us first, “lest we run too far”
Do you have the citation for that. It doesn't surprise me, but a citation would be awesome.
"In regard to the law of the Priesthood, there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments; and the Lord has said this shall be the place for the baptisms for the dead. Every man that has been baptized and belongs to the kingdom has a right to be baptized for those who have gone before; and as soon as the law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free. A man may act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but it must first be revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 367, 2 May 1844)
I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't really trust TPJS - I've found a lot of inconsistencies - I'll try and look it up in the Joseph Smith Papers if you don't have the original citation, but I do appreciate the date - it will give me something to start with.
I was going to do it, as the JSP is far more reliable, but I went to do something. TPJS is just easier to do a word search and find something. I'm back now so I'll take a look for you mate

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Luke
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Luke »

John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:38 pm I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't really trust TPJS - I've found a lot of inconsistencies - I'll try and look it up in the Joseph Smith Papers if you don't have the original citation, but I do appreciate the date - it will give me something to start with.
TPJS actually gives the date wrong. The date is 12 May 1844, not 2 May. Here's the quote from the JSP:
  • "in regard to the law of the Priesthood—there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law is obeyed here the Lord has administrators there, to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordination was laid out before the foundation of the world—those who we have much friendship for, it must be first revealed to man from God lest he should run too far" (Joseph Smith, Discourse, 12 May 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock, pg. 2, JSP)

Prana
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Prana »

A lifetime of devotion and discipline towards a righteous way of living is a good thing. A lifetime of dogma that requires hamster wheel activity and paid membership to a corporation as the ONLY way to save your soul is another story, but I don’t fault those who find value in such an arrangement.

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 3:09 pm
John Tavner wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:38 pm I promise I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't really trust TPJS - I've found a lot of inconsistencies - I'll try and look it up in the Joseph Smith Papers if you don't have the original citation, but I do appreciate the date - it will give me something to start with.
TPJS actually gives the date wrong. The date is 12 May 1844, not 2 May. Here's the quote from the JSP:
  • "in regard to the law of the Priesthood—there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law is obeyed here the Lord has administrators there, to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordination was laid out before the foundation of the world—those who we have much friendship for, it must be first revealed to man from God lest he should run too far" (Joseph Smith, Discourse, 12 May 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock, pg. 2, JSP)
Thank you! I was searching for the 2 May date and found nothing! I Appreciate it!

EmmaLee
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by EmmaLee »

  • "in regard to the law of the Priesthood—there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law is obeyed here the Lord has administrators there, to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordination was laid out before the foundation of the world—those who we have much friendship for, it must be first revealed to man from God lest he should run too far" (Joseph Smith, Discourse, 12 May 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock, pg. 2, JSP)
So if I’m reading/understanding this correctly, Joseph Smith said we should only be doing endowments for our own relatives and/or those who we have much friendship with. So why are we doing temple work for complete strangers, people we never knew/never met/know nothing about/have zero links/relationships to?

Lizzy60
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Lizzy60 »

EmmaLee wrote: September 4th, 2021, 1:11 pm
  • "in regard to the law of the Priesthood—there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law is obeyed here the Lord has administrators there, to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordination was laid out before the foundation of the world—those who we have much friendship for, it must be first revealed to man from God lest he should run too far" (Joseph Smith, Discourse, 12 May 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock, pg. 2, JSP)
So if I’m reading/understanding this correctly, Joseph Smith said we should only be doing endowments for our own relatives and/or those who we have much friendship with. So why are we doing temple work for complete strangers, people we never knew/never met/know nothing about/have zero links/relationships to?
Tithing.

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TheDuke
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by TheDuke »

So, we have proxy work to enter Terrestrial (baptism) and Celestial (laying on on hands), and for exaltation beyond that (endowment seems to be allowing us PH authority to receive privileges, i.e. second level of CK, and marriage for CK level 3). At least that is how i see it.

Now if you buy King Ben's message that this is the life (for us MMPers that could be any mortal probation) then you either get it done here or it doesn't get done (now or by end of millennium). If you've died then you'd need a proxy. Now, I could make a case that if you deserved it (exaltation things) then you would be born to fulfill it. But, then if you were worthy but agreed to some other life to help those then an there, then you shouldn't have to sacrifice for that reason. So, I guess I do believe in proxy.

I'll up you one, on proxy. Jesus is the ultimate proxy taking on our sins and allowing us to work with him for mercy vs. having to work with Satan on justice. So, we allow him to proxy. Can we proxy for others outside of temple? Can a father, mother, brother, etc... take on some of the burden of their loved ones, at least until they are worthy of and seek the greater proxy of Christ? IMO the answer is yes, but not to replace Christ, but to be his helper and fill gap in either repentance or justice temporarily before repentance......... It is just us making our own covenants with god and using ourselves as proxy. Food for thought, most will say no, I would have before Feb 18th this year myself............ I would have said all you can do is pray, but if any of you have literally suffered for a loved one in the way that is required for justice or mercy, you will see that your suffering reduced theirs so, in a way a proxy. IMO

Peeps
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Peeps »

Havenseeker wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 am I would like to get some other opinions on this topic. I have mixed feelings about temple work and since I have found people on this forum to have interesting POVs I would like to present my quandary.

The temple ordinances bothered me from the beginning. As I later continued to attend and do proxy work I had two spiritual interactions:

1) A very lengthy interaction with a Sister where I was the vessel for a message from the Spirit. This was a distinctly positive experience - the first, and only, I’d ever had with such clarity from the Holy Ghost.

2) During a sealing, I was “visited” by one of the names that I was doing proxy work for. It was a distinctly unpleasant interaction that left me pondering the nature of the work we do in the Temple.

I am a slow thinker. I chew on ideas, sometimes for years, to come to an understanding of deep truths. So here are my thoughts:

We are told in the scriptures to avoid familiar spirits, witchcraft, and medium work (channeling spirits), yet proxy work is all about channeling spirits. We call them to us and invite them IMAGE.jpgAlodies (Including the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit too.)

Now maybe in most cases it is benign, but in my case, it was a very upset and angry spirit that rattled around inside my space. From my understanding of the occult, I was put in a very spiritually dangerous situation. Fortunately for me, I am the equivalent to spiritual lead, so the visitor could not stay long, but it seemed irresponsible of the Church to have put me in such a delicate situation in the first place.

It seems to me that proxy work is in direct opposition to the scriptures, but if for some reason it’s still okay, it seems wrong/irresponsible to channel spirits without a working knowledge of spiritual self defense.

And so here’s the crux of this post: Is proxy work doing the duty of a Medium? Should we really be channeling spirits, especially when we are not taught how to protect ourselves from them? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem?

~Havenseeker
Always listen to that "first check" you get in your spirit. If you ignore it, it will sear your conscience eventually. IMO, doing proxy work is a form of necromancy. I had "problems" with demonic dreams that I do not wish to relive by discussing them when I was doing proxy work.

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Thinker
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Thinker »

Wow. I hadn’t considered it this way, though I definitely had a horrible feeling first time going through - & never had a spiritually-affirming experience in the endowment. I like the last bit about strength… blessing posterity too. But the rest of that ritual felt off. And come to find out later - based on freemasonry which REALLY feels off.

As Lizzy noted, it’s really about money/tithing, when it comes down to it. Who knows - maybe temples like during Moses’s, Christ’s times were infiltrated with false worship - so they took it to God in nature.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Robin Hood »

EmmaLee wrote: September 4th, 2021, 1:11 pm
  • "in regard to the law of the Priesthood—there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments, and the Lord has said, this shall be the place for the baptism for the dead—every man that has been baptized and belongs to the Kingdom, has a right to be baptized for those who are gone before, and, as soon as the Law is obeyed here the Lord has administrators there, to set them free—a man may act as proxy for his own relatives—the ordination was laid out before the foundation of the world—those who we have much friendship for, it must be first revealed to man from God lest he should run too far" (Joseph Smith, Discourse, 12 May 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock, pg. 2, JSP)
So if I’m reading/understanding this correctly, Joseph Smith said we should only be doing endowments for our own relatives and/or those who we have much friendship with. So why are we doing temple work for complete strangers, people we never knew/never met/know nothing about/have zero links/relationships to?
I don't believe Joseph had any concept of performing endowments for the dead. This was introduced later by Brigham Young.
Joseph was only concerned with baptisms for the dead.

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Lexew1899
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Lexew1899 »

Firstly, I don’t really believe they are “present” when the work is done. Perhaps in a very rare instance they could be, but I don’t believe they are anxiously awaiting the work to be done or watching. These are ordinances that belong in the world of flesh, and that’s why they are done here.

Secondly, proxy work doesn’t bother me. Christ was or proxy for atonement and suffering. So the concept rings true, and seems to be something that is square with the gospel.

Lastly however, I think it’s mostly a giant waste of time. When doing some genealogy work on the online system, I found literally dozens of records for the same names done. Usually with very tiny differences, perhaps 6 or 7 were different birthdates. Others might have had the full name, others with only a middle initial. How many baptisms, inititory, endowments, and sealings does one need?

Well only 1. Vicarious work didn’t begin until Christ was able to bridge the gulf between spirit prison and paradise. None of this work occurred before then. It was all a once in a lifetime thing. Doing it dozens and dozens of times for the same person is stupid, a waste of time, and acts as of spirits on the other side are so mentally impaired they have no idea what work is being done.

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Lexew1899 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:42 am Firstly, I don’t really believe they are “present” when the work is done. Perhaps in a very rare instance they could be, but I don’t believe they are anxiously awaiting the work to be done or watching. These are ordinances that belong in the world of flesh, and that’s why they are done here.

Secondly, proxy work doesn’t bother me. Christ was or proxy for atonement and suffering. So the concept rings true, and seems to be something that is square with the gospel.

Lastly however, I think it’s mostly a giant waste of time. When doing some genealogy work on the online system, I found literally dozens of records for the same names done. Usually with very tiny differences, perhaps 6 or 7 were different birthdates. Others might have had the full name, others with only a middle initial. How many baptisms, inititory, endowments, and sealings does one need?

Well only 1. Vicarious work didn’t begin until Christ was able to bridge the gulf between spirit prison and paradise. None of this work occurred before then. It was all a once in a lifetime thing. Doing it dozens and dozens of times for the same person is stupid, a waste of time, and acts as of spirits on the other side are so mentally impaired they have no idea what work is being done.
Same. Had some of my ancestors literally baptized like 12 times all with slight variations.. and some are still getting baptized again.... and endowed again... and sealed... again. 3x12.... this was before all the temple changes... so somewhere around 36-50 hours of temple work for those 12 people...at least... could be more depending on how long it was to drive and how long they did hteir research and if they showed up at the temple during peak hours...

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Mindfields
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Mindfields »

John Tavner wrote: September 21st, 2021, 2:28 pm
Lexew1899 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:42 am Firstly, I don’t really believe they are “present” when the work is done. Perhaps in a very rare instance they could be, but I don’t believe they are anxiously awaiting the work to be done or watching. These are ordinances that belong in the world of flesh, and that’s why they are done here.

Secondly, proxy work doesn’t bother me. Christ was or proxy for atonement and suffering. So the concept rings true, and seems to be something that is square with the gospel.

Lastly however, I think it’s mostly a giant waste of time. When doing some genealogy work on the online system, I found literally dozens of records for the same names done. Usually with very tiny differences, perhaps 6 or 7 were different birthdates. Others might have had the full name, others with only a middle initial. How many baptisms, inititory, endowments, and sealings does one need?

Well only 1. Vicarious work didn’t begin until Christ was able to bridge the gulf between spirit prison and paradise. None of this work occurred before then. It was all a once in a lifetime thing. Doing it dozens and dozens of times for the same person is stupid, a waste of time, and acts as of spirits on the other side are so mentally impaired they have no idea what work is being done.
Same. Had some of my ancestors literally baptized like 12 times all with slight variations.. and some are still getting baptized again.... and endowed again... and sealed... again. 3x12.... this was before all the temple changes... so somewhere around 36-50 hours of temple work for those 12 people...at least... could be more depending on how long it was to drive and how long they did hteir research and if they showed up at the temple during peak hours...
There are plenty of stories from temple workers regarding duplicating temple work for the same name. Some even claim that lists of names are used multiple days in one temple and then past on to other temples to do the same.

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John Tavner
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by John Tavner »

Mindfields wrote: September 24th, 2021, 9:44 am
John Tavner wrote: September 21st, 2021, 2:28 pm
Lexew1899 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:42 am Firstly, I don’t really believe they are “present” when the work is done. Perhaps in a very rare instance they could be, but I don’t believe they are anxiously awaiting the work to be done or watching. These are ordinances that belong in the world of flesh, and that’s why they are done here.

Secondly, proxy work doesn’t bother me. Christ was or proxy for atonement and suffering. So the concept rings true, and seems to be something that is square with the gospel.

Lastly however, I think it’s mostly a giant waste of time. When doing some genealogy work on the online system, I found literally dozens of records for the same names done. Usually with very tiny differences, perhaps 6 or 7 were different birthdates. Others might have had the full name, others with only a middle initial. How many baptisms, inititory, endowments, and sealings does one need?

Well only 1. Vicarious work didn’t begin until Christ was able to bridge the gulf between spirit prison and paradise. None of this work occurred before then. It was all a once in a lifetime thing. Doing it dozens and dozens of times for the same person is stupid, a waste of time, and acts as of spirits on the other side are so mentally impaired they have no idea what work is being done.
Same. Had some of my ancestors literally baptized like 12 times all with slight variations.. and some are still getting baptized again.... and endowed again... and sealed... again. 3x12.... this was before all the temple changes... so somewhere around 36-50 hours of temple work for those 12 people...at least... could be more depending on how long it was to drive and how long they did hteir research and if they showed up at the temple during peak hours...
There are plenty of stories from temple workers regarding duplicating temple work for the same name. Some even claim that lists of names are used multiple days in one temple and then past on to other temples to do the same.
If true.. it is very sad and just shows that what we call the temple has been turned into a honey-trap.

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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by creator »

Luke wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:28 pm"In regard to the law of the Priesthood, there should be a place where all nations shall come up from time to time to receive their endowments; and the Lord has said this shall be the place for the baptisms for the dead. Every man that has been baptized and belongs to the kingdom has a right to be baptized for those who have gone before; and as soon as the law of the Gospel is obeyed here by their friends who act as proxy for them, the Lord has administrators there to set them free. A man may act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but it must first be revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 367, 2 May 1844)
Proxy work doesn't "bother" me, but back when I first read this quote it made me consider that we aren't doing the proxy work as Joseph intended, and thus maybe not as the Lord intended.

"A man may act as proxy for his own relatives ... and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but it must first be revealed to the man of God, lest we should run too far."

I think I also recall some additional context from Joseph that implied it was intended for dead relatives/friends that we actually knew in this life, not someone from 10 generations back.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Does Proxy Work Bother You?

Post by Robin Hood »

My wife has ancestors who have been endowed and sealed, but never baptised!

Having said that, my son told me that when he was in the MTC there were a couple of missionaries there who had received the Melchizedek priesthood, been endowed etc, but had never been baptised. They were baptised there before they left the MTC for their missions.

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