Working on the Railroad

[FoundMyEden]

Fred, I would assume the bad people you are describing are only a small minority of those that enter this country illegally. Most probably just want a better life and are good people.

Why would a good person knowingly commit a criminal act?

[tmac]

To have any kind of truly intelligent conversation on this topic people need to actually understand the fundamental laws of nature — which are the most important laws of all — and have a solid grasp of the concepts of Malum in Se and Malum Prohibitum. Until then, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

[Fred]

Some things are wrong whether there is a statute or not.

It isn't the actual crossing of the border that is evil, with or without a law. It is the coming here to be a parasite to get free food and money and be a drain on our economy, which is theft, and one of the 10 commandments, and not having any intention of giving back, but rather a entitled feeling of you owe it to me.

We can handle the extra people if they are not parasites. But they do not want to join us. They want to destroy us.

[farmerchick]

They don't come because they love freedom. the constitution. or to become Americans. They hate us. They came to get freebies, rape women, draw graffiti, and be parasites and divide us. They create a divide by not learning English. They have few if any skills. They are socialists and therefore satanic. When the welfare runs out, we will either kill them or they will kill us.

We owe them nothing. Zero. Zip. They are criminals the second they step on our soil.

It is American complacency. laziness, cowardice, and satanic comfort that allow it. I was in line at the Post Office behind a deputy sheriff when at the front of the line was an obvious criminal. He spoke no English, was holding up the line and wanted to get his mail. I asked the deputy "Why don't you arrest the obvious criminal?" She said that nobody cares. If we lock him up no one will come get him and we will have to feed him forever.

There are millions of those commie pricks here now. They contribute nothing.

I've known illegal immigrants and most of them would work any of us under the table.

So why don't they stay and work in their own respective countries making that a better place where they can thrive?

[Fred]

Cut the free medical and dental. No free plane ride to your favorite city. No welfare or food stamps. No possibility of obtaining citizenship EVER, and the flood of illegals would stop in less than 30 seconds.

[Atrasado]

Cut the free medical and dental. No free plane ride to your favorite city. No welfare or food stamps. No possibility of obtaining citizenship EVER, and the flood of illegals would stop in less than 30 seconds.

Look, I agree that the democrat administrations have led an invasion on immigrants into our country and that has to stop. They (read George Soros) have been organizing and funding this invasion. It's criminal and a betrayal of our country and those immigrants because it's using them. It is also likely child sex trafficking (or worse) as they are deliberately separating the children from the parents.

I see the woman who came here differently. I don't think she was connected to those things. It used to be that illegal immigrants didn't do much to us economically because they really did pay taxes (property taxes and sales taxes can't be avoided) and if they aren't filing for income tax, well most of them aren't in a bracket where they'd pay much of anything, anyway. Many of them helped us build houses and pick and process food and that really helped keep prices down for many years.

The new invasion techniques are a different animal. They feel a lot more sinister in nature. Paying for things for illegal immigrants like the Biden administration does seems to be calculated to inflame the divide between left and right in this country. I'm starting to think that they really want the civil war that the press is pushing so hard.

I think we should do everything we can to keep things peaceful. In the end, if the cabal really wants a civil war they won't stop until they get one, but I plan on continuing to call for peace.

[tmac]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

[farmerchick]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

[tmac]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

Like I said, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

[FrankOne]

If that’s true that would be news to me young man.
My hunting dog just passed away not long ago.
Don’t give me any more reasons to be depressed.
If I have shown myself to be similar to you in any way then I fear for whatever bit of masculinity I have left at my age.

Yes, a deep dark hole of non-masculinity.
But you should become a country music singer.

Yes you do seem to be.

As I was reading a post or two of yours the other day I realized that I don’t actually know if you are male or female. I can only assume but I don’t like to assume. In my mind as I read your words you come off like an illiterate Jane Austin. So I’m not sure of your gender. I certainly don’t believe we have much in common besides now my picture.

I do actually sing and play. Nylon string guitar. My grandchildren like to hear Ghostriders.

I am a newcomer to this thread as of 30 minutes ago and have been going page by page...now on about page 6. I have to admit, this guy is hilarious. he keeps getting shredded by others and his responses are uniquely entertaining. I like this guy. Not because he is articulate or good at insulting others, but because of his cavalier style.

I hope the story has a revealing ending. It's amusing how he gets derailed 30 times in 6 pages by others giving him the run-by straight-arm. ....lol. "I get knocked down, but I get up again" goes the song.

[FrankOne]

Old joke about two young fish swimming by an old fish one morning.

Old fish says to the two young fish “Morning boys how’s the water?”

In response, the two young fish just smile and wave and say good morning. When the old fish swims out of earshot one of the young fish says to the other “what in the hell is water?”


If you’ll notice the only folks having trouble leaving this thread alone are women and dudes.
And I know you call each other dudes and I find that funny.

It’s funny and it’s true.

good one , as well as two and three

[Great8]

If that’s true that would be news to me young man.
My hunting dog just passed away not long ago.
Don’t give me any more reasons to be depressed.
If I have shown myself to be similar to you in any way then I fear for whatever bit of masculinity I have left at my age.

Yes, a deep dark hole of non-masculinity.
But you should become a country music singer.

Yes you do seem to be.

As I was reading a post or two of yours the other day I realized that I don’t actually know if you are male or female. I can only assume but I don’t like to assume. In my mind as I read your words you come off like an illiterate Jane Austin. So I’m not sure of your gender. I certainly don’t believe we have much in common besides now my picture.

I do actually sing and play. Nylon string guitar. My grandchildren like to hear Ghostriders.

I am a newcomer to this thread as of 30 minutes ago and have been going page by page...now on about page 6. I have to admit, this guy is hilarious. he keeps getting shredded by others and his responses are uniquely entertaining. I like this guy. Not because he is articulate or good at insulting others, but because of his cavalier style.

I hope the story has a revealing ending. It's amusing how he gets derailed 30 times in 6 pages by others giving him the run-by straight-arm. ....lol. "I get knocked down, but I get up again" goes the song.

You will be surprised!!!!!

[HVDC]

If that’s true that would be news to me young man.
My hunting dog just passed away not long ago.
Don’t give me any more reasons to be depressed.
If I have shown myself to be similar to you in any way then I fear for whatever bit of masculinity I have left at my age.

Yes, a deep dark hole of non-masculinity.
But you should become a country music singer.

Yes you do seem to be.

As I was reading a post or two of yours the other day I realized that I don’t actually know if you are male or female. I can only assume but I don’t like to assume. In my mind as I read your words you come off like an illiterate Jane Austin. So I’m not sure of your gender. I certainly don’t believe we have much in common besides now my picture.

I do actually sing and play. Nylon string guitar. My grandchildren like to hear Ghostriders.

I am a newcomer to this thread as of 30 minutes ago and have been going page by page...now on about page 6. I have to admit, this guy is hilarious. he keeps getting shredded by others and his responses are uniquely entertaining. I like this guy. Not because he is articulate or good at insulting others, but because of his cavalier style.

I hope the story has a revealing ending. It's amusing how he gets derailed 30 times in 6 pages by others giving him the run-by straight-arm. ....lol. "I get knocked down, but I get up again" goes the song.

Even has its own version of missing pages.

Sir H

[farmerchick]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

Like I said, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

I know plenty about this....maybe its you who is uninformed.

[Jason]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

Like I said, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

I know plenty about this....maybe its you who is uninformed.

communication can get quite tangled up in this forum...

perhaps not quite on topic target here....but from my observation point...fwiw...the intent with all things political right now is creating a civil war...from abortion to immigration to gun control

[tmac]

There are multiple varieties of parasites in this world, and the vast, vast majority of Americans have now become parasites too. But, let’s keep puffing our chests. We were born here, so we have an inherent entitlement to be parasites, and to be proud of it.

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

Like I said, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

I know plenty about this....maybe its you who is uninformed.

Fair enough. I am a retired attorney with 30+ years direct experience with the so-called “rule of law.” Please tell us what you know about the Laws of Nature, and how they fit into the whole rule of law equation.

[farmerchick]

it's not about puffing our chests. It's about the rule of law and political corruption. These people are being used as political pawns. Look what this poor woman has endured. She was separated from her husband and family. She broke her feet or legs getting over the border......and then we the tax payers are picking up the tab for the unfortunate event of her broken legs. This woman has suffered.....for what? For the biden administration to bring in new voters? For the immigrants to get here and be put on the Dole sort of and then have to experience pan handling? What is this really all about? Well it's about using other people by other people to gain power and control over all of us. The rule of law has been diminished and these poor people have been used....illegal immigration does nothing to empower the little guy...it only helps drain us of resources, wrecked the rule of law, and everyone involved suffers.....the lens through which some see this is warped....see it for what it is....i know cyotes who bring people ovee and exploit them...they were also exploited at one time. I know illegals brought here as children who later became productive citizens....i have an adopted (not legally) little sister who was brought here by her brothers when she was 9.....somehow she ended up living with my parents till she was 19 years old. Went back to Mexico and then served a mission which my parents paid for.....she suffered because she ended up in a place as child with no one....she did become part of my family but that took some time and then things were better...can you imagine being 9 not speaking the language and finding yourself in a foreign land with strangers?. She spoke no English when she arrived but somehow learned while in school and did well....but it was hard and if not for my parents picking her up off the street who knows what would have happened,,,,...the reason we don't have a legal way to bring in workers to do the jobs Americans will not do is political...it's a power trap using people.....if ya like that keep supporting those who do it...i don't......immigrants should stay in their own countries where they know the language and culture......we should be putting a stop to the politicians who would look the other way while people are breaking in to our country...we have a right as American citizens to demand our politicians stop this and make a path for workers from other countries to come in as documented workers......the cost is high for everyone.....

Like I said, most people don’t even know what they don’t know.

I know plenty about this....maybe its you who is uninformed.

Fair enough. I am a retired attorney with 30+ years direct experience with the so-called “rule of law.” Please tell us what you know about the Laws of Nature, and how they fit into the whole rule of law equation.

Please tell us what you know about illegal immigration that promotes suffering for political gains and how it effects individuals, families and nations....? Your an attorney after all...way smarter than me...lol

[Peeps]

Goodness, imagine if these types arguments were probably used by the Priest and Levite when they passed by the man who fell among thieves, but the good Samaritan just saw an injured person, and decided to help.

[HVDC]

Goodness, imagine if these types arguments were probably used by the Priest and Levite when they passed by the man who fell among thieves, but the good Samaritan just saw an injured person, and decided to help.

Interesting.

It seems to me that there are a few differences.

Such as the American people have already helped the injured person.

Who was not attacked by criminals but is one herself.

And since this is not her country.

Some Americans would like the law enforced and have her deported.

Other Americans, assumably, for various reasons want the law ignored.

I don't remember the Good Samaritan taking the injured man home.

And after he was healed, he went on his way.

Nor did the good Samaritan have the people of the area pay for the medical bills.

Therefore.

Your attempt to guilt trip by misusing the scriptures.

Fails.

The American people are the victims here.

Their children are the victims here.

Of deliberate criminal acts which continue to compound negative effects.

Summary deportation is the appropriate response to incursion and deters future incursion.

Ignoring some crimes allows other crimes to flourish.

That some people profit from exploiting the desperation of others.

Does not change the facts.

That the costs of unlimited illegal immigration outway any benefits.

Send them all home.

We will survive.

And so will they.

But some lawyers might lose money.

Too bad.

Sir H

[tmac]

Is there anyone here — anyone — who can explain the difference between Malum in Se and Malum Prohibitum?

I have no doubt they can and will survive. I actually have more confidence in their survival than our own. What are we actually willing to risk life and limb for?

Even in this specific case, this particular woman, after having already risked life and limb for something better, would probably still “survive,” even if they had hoisted her back over the wall, and summarily dumped her back into Mexico with two broken legs. She could probably still “survive” even as a beggar, or by selling the remaining working parts of her body as a prostitute. And I’m sure that would make some here feel better.

But this I do know, when it comes to the fundamental laws of nature: Ultimately, it is those who produce and reproduce who survive. Consumers are at someone else’s mercy.

So, what makes you so sure that when the time comes, consumption-oriented Americans will survive as well? For how long? On what?

Yes, we seem to have plenty of problems, because we still have plenty of food, but the day will come when that will change.

Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem.

Who produces the food in this country, and in the world? Yes, I know, Bill Gates has all the answers, and will eventually completely eliminate the human element in food production.

But what about in the meantime?Maybe when the time comes people can survive on their own words, and will be able to eat enough of their words to survive.

I realize than apparently many do not actually consider these folks to actually be “brothers” and “sisters” in any real sense. But when the time comes, who are the “first” who will be last, and the “last”who will be first?

Regardless of whether we are or aren’t actually related, in the overall scheme of things, are we not all beggars?

But, fair enough. Keep puffing your chests. See how far that gets you when it comes right down to it, and when we all have to answer to our divine Maker for our words, actions, and the thoughts and intents of hearts. At that point, be sure to puff your chests more than ever, wrap yourselves in your flag and your Rule of Law, and see what He thinks of all that, and how far it gets you. I’m sure it will score lots of points. My guess is, you will need a good lawyer, and you will have the very best. But even with the best advocate in existence, will He be able to sugar-coat your words and actions well-enough to shoe-horn you into Heaven? This time around?

It will be interesting to see what happens.

May God have mercy on all of us.

[tmac]

For all you “first come, first served” entitled white American Mormon chest-puffers, consider this story:

http://rangefire.us/2014/09/24/corey-ka ... elta-rose/

Here’s an excerpt:

Last week, in my high school pecking order piece, I talked about the importance of perspective. If you want to really get a taste of the difference “perspective” can make, it is worth studying history from different points of view. As Winston Churchill said “history is written by the victors.” With that in mind, I wanted to see what conventional “White” history says about Corey Kanosh’s people. Based on research of those sources, this is what I learned:

Chief Kanosh was a leader of the Pahvant Utes. He was a half brother of the infamous Ute Chief Wakara who is believed to be buried on the West face of the Pahvant Mountains, under the Pig above Meadow, not far from the Kanosh Indian Reservation. When Mormon pioneers first came to Utah and explored the area, the Kanosh band had a major camp at Corn Creek. Chief Kanosh spoke Ute, Paiute, Spanish, and eventually English, and is remembered for having been “friendly toward early Mormon Pioneer settlers.” He invited the Mormons to come and settle in his area where they eventually founded the town of Kanosh. He represented the Pahvant Utes at the signing of a treaty with Brigham Young which signaled the end of the Walker War in 1854, and was among the Utes who took up farming. Chief Kanosh joined the LDS Church and was baptized in 1858. In 1864 he was ordained an elder, and he was one of the very earliest Native Americans to receive his endowments. Chief Kanosh met with Brigham Young on September 1, 1857 to discuss strategy in relation to the Utah War with the Federal government. One of his wives was Sally, a Southern Paiute who had been raised in Young’s household. This relationship was a key part of the reason why the Kanosh band worked so closely with the Mormons. Another of his wives was a Paiute named Mary, who had been raised by an LDS family in Payson. While Chief Kanosh’s other three wives lived in wikiups, he built a regular cabin for Mary. Chief Kanosh and his fellow Pahvants were the only large group of Utes who did not participate in the Black Hawk War. In 1884, Chief Kanosh died and was buried near Kanosh, the town that was named after him.

That is the standard “White” history version. What I have learned is that there is another side of the whole story about Mormon treatment of the Native Americans they encountered in Utah that appears to have been largely ignored. The story of what really happened between the Mormons and the Indians appears to be a lot like the story about what happened in the Mountain Meadow Massacre (which was also blamed on the Indians), but the rest of the story about how the Native Americans were treated is even less well known. If you are truly interested in studying the other side of this story, I highly recommend The Black Hawk War: Utah’s Forgotten Tragedy, as told by Phillip B. Gottfredson, at www.blackhawkproductions.com/. Gottredson’s treatment includes the history of Chief Black Hawk, the Black Hawk War, and is offered as an alternative view to the other side of the story about how Native Americans were treated by the early Mormon settlers in Utah. Because the contrast between these versions is so stark, I’m going to include a very brief summary of that account as well.

According to Gottfredson, in an interview with the interpreter M.S. Martenas, the Ute Chief Wakara (Kanosh’s half brother), said this:

“the Mormons when they first commenced the settlement of Salt Lake Valley, were friendly, and promised [us] many comforts, and lasting friendship—[and] they continued friendly for a short time, until they became strong in numbers, then their conduct and treatment towards the Indians changed—sometimes [the Indians] have been treated with much severity—settlements have been made on all their hunting grounds in the valleys, and the graves of their fathers have been torn up by the whites.”
Gottredson’s overall conclusion regarding the Mormons’ treatment of Native Americans is summed-up as follows:

“Native Americans in Utah were subjected to deceit, dishonesty, torture, mass butchery, rape, and death, death to others, to animals, plants, to the waters, and the land. Indigenous men, women, and children were left to wonder alone in a land they believed belonged to them for eternity. A people who in their final agony cried out ‘we are human too.'”

I realize this is only a very brief nutshell, and is definitely not the version of history Utah children learn in school, but we must also remember who wrote the version of history found in the school books. Once again, for anyone who sincerely desires to have a better understanding of this subject matter, I highly recommend consideration of Gottfredson’s material, which I found very fascinating.

I also wanted to know more about all this from the standpoint of Corey’s own family. This is what one of them had to say:

“The White history of Chief Kanosh and the Mormons is not what we were taught by our elders. Chief Kanosh didn’t invite the Mormons to the Pahvant Valley. Why would he do that? On the other hand, Brigham Young told his people, the Mormons, to settle there, not just at Corn Creek, but all around the state. Chief Kanosh knew the Mormons were coming and realized his people had no fighting chance to stop them. That has proven to be the case for all the tribes in the United States, but the Pahvant Utes were treated as poorly as any.

Chief Kanosh’s people were peaceful people, who had no guns, and no means to fight or resist the Mormons. They were simply outmanned and outgunned. Kanosh had no other choice but to give up and submit to the Mormon invasion. Attempting to be nice, and willing to negotiate was the only chance for his people’s survival. According to our elders, Chief Kanosh’s wife, Sally, was Ute instead of Paiute. She was traded to Brigham Young by her own people and eventually and secretly became one of his many wives, before being offered to Chief Kanosh.

In the end, the Mormons and the US Government claimed every single inch of the Pahvant Utes’ original homelands. The Pahvant Utes were told to move to the Ute Reservation in Northeastern Utah, and many did. Only a few stayed behind, near Kanosh, to struggle in their homelands, near the town named after their chief. Eventually they were forced to give up every bit of land they claimed, including our own cemetery, before the band was finally officially recognized, and a tiny sliver of land was given back.

So, contrary to the popular version, there has always been mistrust and resentment towards the Mormons ever since they invaded and claimed the Native Pahvant homelands. And the feeling seems to have always been mutual. [Perhaps the Mormons resented us because we were in their way. Perhaps they felt guilty because of how they have always treated us]. But the Mormons seem to have always hated the Natives, mostly just because they were poor, and different.

Before the Mormons came we weren’t poor at all, only in the eyes of the Mormons. We had everything we needed. We were 500+ tribal members strong at Corn Creek. We could hunt and fish in our Mountains and creeks whenever we needed. We were independent and self-sufficient. We used everything that Mother Earth and our Creator provided for us, all the while not polluting or exhausting our resources. Our people have existed here for thousands of years…. It’s a shame, how our God given rights have been taken from us by those very people who not only claim to believe in those same rights, but who also claim to be protectors, and who also claim to know what it feels like to be misunderstood, oppressed and persecuted. I want the Corn Creek Mormons to know that the land they live on is and will always be considered KANOSH PAIUTE/UTE LAND.

[farmerchick]

Is there anyone here — anyone — who can explain the difference between Malum in Se and Malum Prohibitum?

I have no doubt they can and will survive. I actually have more confidence in their survival than our own. What are we actually willing to risk life and limb for?

Even in this specific case, this particular woman, after having already risked life and limb for something better, would probably still “survive,” even if they had hoisted her back over the wall, and summarily dumped her back into Mexico with two broken legs. She could probably still “survive” even as a beggar, or by selling the remaining working parts of her body as a prostitute. And I’m sure that would make some here feel better.

But this I do know, when it comes to the fundamental laws of nature: Ultimately, it is those who produce and reproduce who survive. Consumers are at someone else’s mercy.

So, what makes you so sure that when the time comes, consumption-oriented Americans will survive as well? For how long? On what?

Yes, we seem to have plenty of problems, because we still have plenty of food, but the day will come when that will change.

Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem.

Who produces the food in this country, and in the world? Yes, I know, Bill Gates has all the answers, and will eventually completely eliminate the human element in food production.

But what about in the meantime?Maybe when the time comes people can survive on their own words, and will be able to eat enough of their words to survive.

I realize than apparently many do not actually consider these folks to actually be “brothers” and “sisters” in any real sense. But when the time comes, who are the “first” who will be last, and the “last”who will be first?

Regardless of whether we are or aren’t actually related, in the overall scheme of things, are we not all beggars?

But, fair enough. Keep puffing your chests. See how far that gets you when it comes right down to it, and when we all have to answer to our divine Maker for our words, actions, and the thoughts and intents of hearts. At that point, be sure to puff your chests more than ever, wrap yourselves in your flag and your Rule of Law, and see what He thinks of all that, and how far it gets you. I’m sure it will score lots of points. My guess is, you will need a good lawyer, and you will have the very best. But even with the best advocate in existence, will He be able to sugar-coat your words and actions well-enough to shoe-horn you into Heaven? This time around?

It will be interesting to see what happens.
May God have mercy on all of us.

Ok you view this as a right for them to come here because it is only prohibited by a government as wrong that they enter the United states....your fancy Latin phrase malum in se means that if the act is wrong or evil in itself in any circumstance... ie rape murder ect....and the the malum prohibitum .which is only wrong because our government says so....do I have that right? Im not an attorney and I don't pretend to be one. But I do know lots and lots of immigrants who are undocumented and I posted my own personal experience with my little sister...she is really considered my little sister by my whole family...even though she isn't blood related....what happened tp her on the way to the US is un speakable......what your saying is that anyone can come here for any reason and we should take care of them and allow them to do whatever they want. Do I have this right?

[farmerchick]

For all you “first come, first served” entitled white American Mormon chest-puffers, consider this story:

http://rangefire.us/2014/09/24/corey-ka ... elta-rose/

Here’s an excerpt:

Last week, in my high school pecking order piece, I talked about the importance of perspective. If you want to really get a taste of the difference “perspective” can make, it is worth studying history from different points of view. As Winston Churchill said “history is written by the victors.” With that in mind, I wanted to see what conventional “White” history says about Corey Kanosh’s people. Based on research of those sources, this is what I learned:

Chief Kanosh was a leader of the Pahvant Utes. He was a half brother of the infamous Ute Chief Wakara who is believed to be buried on the West face of the Pahvant Mountains, under the Pig above Meadow, not far from the Kanosh Indian Reservation. When Mormon pioneers first came to Utah and explored the area, the Kanosh band had a major camp at Corn Creek. Chief Kanosh spoke Ute, Paiute, Spanish, and eventually English, and is remembered for having been “friendly toward early Mormon Pioneer settlers.” He invited the Mormons to come and settle in his area where they eventually founded the town of Kanosh. He represented the Pahvant Utes at the signing of a treaty with Brigham Young which signaled the end of the Walker War in 1854, and was among the Utes who took up farming. Chief Kanosh joined the LDS Church and was baptized in 1858. In 1864 he was ordained an elder, and he was one of the very earliest Native Americans to receive his endowments. Chief Kanosh met with Brigham Young on September 1, 1857 to discuss strategy in relation to the Utah War with the Federal government. One of his wives was Sally, a Southern Paiute who had been raised in Young’s household. This relationship was a key part of the reason why the Kanosh band worked so closely with the Mormons. Another of his wives was a Paiute named Mary, who had been raised by an LDS family in Payson. While Chief Kanosh’s other three wives lived in wikiups, he built a regular cabin for Mary. Chief Kanosh and his fellow Pahvants were the only large group of Utes who did not participate in the Black Hawk War. In 1884, Chief Kanosh died and was buried near Kanosh, the town that was named after him.

That is the standard “White” history version. What I have learned is that there is another side of the whole story about Mormon treatment of the Native Americans they encountered in Utah that appears to have been largely ignored. The story of what really happened between the Mormons and the Indians appears to be a lot like the story about what happened in the Mountain Meadow Massacre (which was also blamed on the Indians), but the rest of the story about how the Native Americans were treated is even less well known. If you are truly interested in studying the other side of this story, I highly recommend The Black Hawk War: Utah’s Forgotten Tragedy, as told by Phillip B. Gottfredson, at www.blackhawkproductions.com/. Gottredson’s treatment includes the history of Chief Black Hawk, the Black Hawk War, and is offered as an alternative view to the other side of the story about how Native Americans were treated by the early Mormon settlers in Utah. Because the contrast between these versions is so stark, I’m going to include a very brief summary of that account as well.

According to Gottfredson, in an interview with the interpreter M.S. Martenas, the Ute Chief Wakara (Kanosh’s half brother), said this:

“the Mormons when they first commenced the settlement of Salt Lake Valley, were friendly, and promised [us] many comforts, and lasting friendship—[and] they continued friendly for a short time, until they became strong in numbers, then their conduct and treatment towards the Indians changed—sometimes [the Indians] have been treated with much severity—settlements have been made on all their hunting grounds in the valleys, and the graves of their fathers have been torn up by the whites.”
Gottredson’s overall conclusion regarding the Mormons’ treatment of Native Americans is summed-up as follows:

“Native Americans in Utah were subjected to deceit, dishonesty, torture, mass butchery, rape, and death, death to others, to animals, plants, to the waters, and the land. Indigenous men, women, and children were left to wonder alone in a land they believed belonged to them for eternity. A people who in their final agony cried out ‘we are human too.'”

I realize this is only a very brief nutshell, and is definitely not the version of history Utah children learn in school, but we must also remember who wrote the version of history found in the school books. Once again, for anyone who sincerely desires to have a better understanding of this subject matter, I highly recommend consideration of Gottfredson’s material, which I found very fascinating.

I also wanted to know more about all this from the standpoint of Corey’s own family. This is what one of them had to say:

“The White history of Chief Kanosh and the Mormons is not what we were taught by our elders. Chief Kanosh didn’t invite the Mormons to the Pahvant Valley. Why would he do that? On the other hand, Brigham Young told his people, the Mormons, to settle there, not just at Corn Creek, but all around the state. Chief Kanosh knew the Mormons were coming and realized his people had no fighting chance to stop them. That has proven to be the case for all the tribes in the United States, but the Pahvant Utes were treated as poorly as any.

Chief Kanosh’s people were peaceful people, who had no guns, and no means to fight or resist the Mormons. They were simply outmanned and outgunned. Kanosh had no other choice but to give up and submit to the Mormon invasion. Attempting to be nice, and willing to negotiate was the only chance for his people’s survival. According to our elders, Chief Kanosh’s wife, Sally, was Ute instead of Paiute. She was traded to Brigham Young by her own people and eventually and secretly became one of his many wives, before being offered to Chief Kanosh.

In the end, the Mormons and the US Government claimed every single inch of the Pahvant Utes’ original homelands. The Pahvant Utes were told to move to the Ute Reservation in Northeastern Utah, and many did. Only a few stayed behind, near Kanosh, to struggle in their homelands, near the town named after their chief. Eventually they were forced to give up every bit of land they claimed, including our own cemetery, before the band was finally officially recognized, and a tiny sliver of land was given back.

So, contrary to the popular version, there has always been mistrust and resentment towards the Mormons ever since they invaded and claimed the Native Pahvant homelands. And the feeling seems to have always been mutual. [Perhaps the Mormons resented us because we were in their way. Perhaps they felt guilty because of how they have always treated us]. But the Mormons seem to have always hated the Natives, mostly just because they were poor, and different.

Before the Mormons came we weren’t poor at all, only in the eyes of the Mormons. We had everything we needed. We were 500+ tribal members strong at Corn Creek. We could hunt and fish in our Mountains and creeks whenever we needed. We were independent and self-sufficient. We used everything that Mother Earth and our Creator provided for us, all the while not polluting or exhausting our resources. Our people have existed here for thousands of years…. It’s a shame, how our God given rights have been taken from us by those very people who not only claim to believe in those same rights, but who also claim to be protectors, and who also claim to know what it feels like to be misunderstood, oppressed and persecuted. I want the Corn Creek Mormons to know that the land they live on is and will always be considered KANOSH PAIUTE/UTE LAND.

Ok so the law of nature is that the strong survive and take over the ancient? What is the point besides the Mormons were as treacherous as any other people? Does this make it right for us to be invaded and our government allows it? Two wrongs make a right now? Who cares if people are used and abused at every point coming into our country?

[darknesstolight]

Well at least one of us has manners then

I believe what you are referring to is you asking me to share this story.

And so I start to share it and you come over and tell me how I’m avoiding it? Nonsensical

So this railroad thing is about George Bush and church leaders is it?
Come on then, get to the point.

Stop trolling and harassing him.

Thank you. I find my self surrounded on all sides by mockers and jesters. And should I give them a piece of my mind…the creator of the forum will remove me.

"It may look like I'm surrounded but I'm surrounded by You"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7578ZNwNU

...

[HVDC]

Sounds like.

If you can't beat them.

Join them.

Your mommy and daddy's were bad.

And your kids are spoiled brats.

Therefore.

A better race is replacing you.

See these Latin Words that are casting a spell that dooms your fate.

When your bellies are empty.

You will roll over and die.

Cause you are bad.

And lazy.

Not like them.

Not like me.

I work for the other guys now.

I know things.

I'm a lawyer.

Sir H