First Presidency Urges Saints to Wear Masks and Take the Vaccine

[Trucker]

Has the Lord counseled us to get vaccines? Is there a revelation on this? The First Pres message on this didn't say anything about the Lord directing us to get vaccinated, or that the Spirit told them to relay the message to get vaccinated. If that happened, they didn't say it, or even imply it. They only mentioned following wise doctors and government leaders. (If someone can find me a "wise" government leader, I'd like to know it).

It seems to me that the First Pres is just repeating what the government and CDC are saying. The CDC is not a conduit to God. The leaders of the church should be (at least one conduit). I can already hear what the CDC thinks I should do. But the church leaders have not commented on what the Lord is saying we should do.

The Lord has not spoken to the church on this matter. Only the CDC.

What is the point of church leadership that doesn't reveal the Lord's will on matters, but instead just follows what the government says to do?

[franklinbluth]

I think their instructions were pretty clear. Don't talk about politics at church. They didn't. The issue of donations and whatever is a separate question. I don't think they're saying that people can't talk about politics outside of the church, which is what they did.

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

When they specifically thank and praise the people implementing the mandates for implementing the mandates, it is an endorsement.

Telling people to get vaxed is political because those in positions of power have been engaging in politics throughout COVID. It is easy to play at ignorance and look at a statement in isolation of all context and pretend that it is harmless or non-political. But statements aren't in isolation of context. This is a rhetorical game that is useful in debate class but is inherently dishonest when applied to discussions of this type.

The government gets involved in all kinds of stuff. That doesn't change the thing itself. If the government has an anti-drug campaign (as they often have), is saying that drugs are bad a political statement, or is it just common sense advise that people should feel free to give without being accused of being political?

[Serragon]

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

They just mandated masks at church.

I mean government mandates. What is political about delineating what happens at church? Is it political for them to buy folding chairs? Why is this political?

So since purchasing folding chairs isn't political, nothing is? Or since the brethren can delineate what happens at church, nothing they do is political? Doesn't seem to make any sense at all. But I suspect this is just another move the goalposts moment.

[Serragon]

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

When they specifically thank and praise the people implementing the mandates for implementing the mandates, it is an endorsement.

Telling people to get vaxed is political because those in positions of power have been engaging in politics throughout COVID. It is easy to play at ignorance and look at a statement in isolation of all context and pretend that it is harmless or non-political. But statements aren't in isolation of context. This is a rhetorical game that is useful in debate class but is inherently dishonest when applied to discussions of this type.

The government gets involved in all kinds of stuff. That doesn't change the thing itself. If the government has an anti-drug campaign (as they often have), is saying that drugs are bad a political statement, or is it just common sense advise that people should feel free to give without being accused of being political?

Every single thing the government does is political.

[TheDuke]

So, Eyring said 50% of BYUI students were vaxed and he said experts said they needed 75%. The US is 70% now, is everyone crying over 5% for end of the world here? Do, I need the magic 75% in every ward, stake, town, home, office? I guess it is like COVID only attacking in the later verses of a song, or when your not eating on a plane or in a restaurant or at Lightfoot's party, or Obama's party or Nancy's salon, or in Texas Dem airplane trip to DC? Such a strange virus, I guess it does know how to make war.

[franklinbluth]

Sorry Franklin: my friend's dad passed away at 97 in terrible condition for several years. He was tested negative before and after death yet because an orderly had COVID and had been in the building within 2 weeks he was listed as COVID. LIE. at one poine 7xx people in Wa state died from COVID. 250 of them didn't even list COVID on death certificate. of the other 500 there were half w/o symptoms and over 6 comorbidities; including: 3 murders, over 100 heart attacks, on and on. Experts guessed maybe if you count honestly less than half. for sure no more than 60% and likel 20% of them were truly COVID. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.........Can you provide any?

Do you have any citations? Because I provided a link to the guidelines on how covid deaths should be counted.

[Rick Grimes]

That is my very point. they put restrictions on engaging in politics at church while at the same time using their church position and authority to engage in politics.

Pres. Nelson engages w/ the NAACP as the President of the Church and hands over funds. My local Bishop is not allowed to do the same for the local anti-abortion groups.

I think their instructions were pretty clear. Don't talk about politics at church. They didn't. The issue of donations and whatever is a separate question. I don't think they're saying that people can't talk about politics outside of the church, which is what they did.

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

Franklin,
You really got some blinders on brother. The brethren have talked about racism ad nauseam. This is the same talking point that the DNC currently has. They added the language in the handbook about being accepting of all people who cross our borders legally or otherwise. Again, a talking point of the DNC. Of course racism is wrong. Of course we should treat humans with compassion. However, one political party is making the argument that racism, xenophobia, and global warming are our biggest issues right now. The 1st Presidency agrees and they are parroting that message for the last 2 years. Forget about the dissolution of the family. Forget about the rise in single parent homes. Forget about the exodus of people leaving churches to lead a more secular life. Nope. Racism, Xenophobia, and global warming are the threats. You really dont see the politics in their messages??

[franklinbluth]

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

When they specifically thank and praise the people implementing the mandates for implementing the mandates, it is an endorsement.

Telling people to get vaxed is political because those in positions of power have been engaging in politics throughout COVID. It is easy to play at ignorance and look at a statement in isolation of all context and pretend that it is harmless or non-political. But statements aren't in isolation of context. This is a rhetorical game that is useful in debate class but is inherently dishonest when applied to discussions of this type.

The government gets involved in all kinds of stuff. That doesn't change the thing itself. If the government has an anti-drug campaign (as they often have), is saying that drugs are bad a political statement, or is it just common sense advise that people should feel free to give without being accused of being political?

Every single thing the government does is political.

Sure, but they don't dictate what a thing is, only what they do. See my example before about drugs.

[franklinbluth]

I think their instructions were pretty clear. Don't talk about politics at church. They didn't. The issue of donations and whatever is a separate question. I don't think they're saying that people can't talk about politics outside of the church, which is what they did.

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

Franklin,
You really got some blinders on brother. The brethren have talked about racism ad nauseam. This is the same talking point that the DNC currently has. They added the language in the handbook about being accepting of all people who cross our borders legally or otherwise. Again, a talking point of the DNC. Of course racism is wrong. Of course we should treat humans with compassion. However, one political party is making the argument that racism, xenophobia, and global warming are our biggest issues right now. The 1st Presidency agrees and they are parroting that message for the last 2 years. Forget about the dissolution of the family. Forget about the rise in single parent homes. Forget about the exodus of people leaving churches to lead a more secular life. Nope. Racism, Xenophobia, and global warming are the threats. You really dont see the politics in their messages??

Again, other people don't get to define things for us. Just because those evil, evil libs day something doesn't mean that they own it forcer and ever. Racism is bad. I don't care if the dnc said it. The church is correct when they say it. I don't care who else is saying it. And if you agree that racism is wrong, why are you update with the church being right? Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

[nvr]

It's certainly hasn't resulted in the 2 million deaths in the US by last October which was what the faulty Imperial computer model from UK predicted.
If you remember, this model is what was cited to push for all these insane mask and lockdown policies. That program, described as spaghetti code, would give wildly different answers on different runs with just changing formatting options. It was labelled the single most devastating software mistake in history.

Also, it's well-known that the method used to classify a COVID death is dubious - a person would die and then they'd run a PCR test afterwards (PCR tests, with the over-recommended number of amplification cycles most commonly used, are useless in determining actual infection). A person could die of a stroke or heart attack and would, with results from a faulty PCR test, get counted as a COVID death. But these details are old news, talked about all last year and it gets tiring having to repeat it. They're still using the same methods. There's been perverse incentives for hospitals to classify a death as COVID-related because of how much more Medicaid reimburses COVID hospitals. It's a racket, and lies everywhere.

The model for what would happen if we did nothing said there would be more deaths than what we had.... after we did something?

And I don't think anyone using that model anymore, are they? We have more information now than we did, and we've updated the models accordingly. What does that have to do with trying to prevent more than the 600K already dead?

That isn't how covid deaths are counted. From the guidance for doctors:

If the patient was a confirmed COVID-19 case, but the cause of death was not related to COVID-19 nor did COVID-19 contribute to the death, how should the physician complete the death certificate?

If COVID-19 was unrelated to the cause of death and not a contributing factor, it should not be included in Part I or II of the death certificate.

https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14 ... 0,694.html

There's a big difference between how they're supposed to count causes of death and how the actually count them. Again, there has been a perverse incentive. Again, PCR test can have >90% inaccuracies.

Curious where you think is the best place to be on this spectrum:

dangerous/free - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - peace/slavery

Why would you think they're doing it, then? If we agree that the instructions are clear, why assume that it's being ignored?

PCR tests are not 90% inaccurate. That's just silly. People need to at least make up believable numbers. I've known lots of people who've gotten tested. Only a couple tested positive without symptoms. If it was anywhere close to 90% everyone would be seeing evidence of it all the time.

Before COVID, before last year, the cycle threshold, Ct, for the PCR test was 30, anything more resulted in excessive false positives. Throughout COVID last year, Ct was 40. The CDC dropped the recommended cycle count an hour after Biden was inaugurated, incidentally. Turns out, you can increase the number of cases (and deaths) simply by changing the number of recommended PCR amplification cycle counts!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/heal ... sting.html
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/rig ... -positives

In general, it is simply a poor tool to use.

“PCR basically takes a sample of your cells and amplifies any DNA to look for ‘viral sequences’, i.e. bits of non-human DNA that seem to match parts of a known viral genome. The problem is the test is known not to work. It uses ‘amplification’ which means taking a very very tiny amount of DNA and growing it exponentially until it can be analysed. Obviously any minute contaminations in the sample will also be amplified leading to potentially gross errors of discovery. Additionally, it’s only looking for partial viral sequences, not whole genomes, so identifying a single pathogen is next to impossible even if you ignore the other issues.The idea these kits can isolate a specific virus like COVID-19 is nonsense.”

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=30880

[EmmaLee]

I wonder how much the STMC pays? Or is it a calling?

[franklinbluth]

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

They just mandated masks at church.

I mean government mandates. What is political about delineating what happens at church? Is it political for them to buy folding chairs? Why is this political?

So since purchasing folding chairs isn't political, nothing is? Or since the brethren can delineate what happens at church, nothing they do is political? Doesn't seem to make any sense at all. But I suspect this is just another move the goalposts moment.

No, it means that we should be able to know what is political without reference to anyone else. The government doesn't get to decide what is political. We define it. Talking about vaccines, without saying that they should be government mandated, is not political.

[markharr]

Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

You called me a Trumpster yesterday.

[Willow]

rumors that those unvaxxed will not be allowed to pay tithes and offerings?

Lol

Willow

[Rick Grimes]

When they write an official letter to all the members, when they publish that letter on all their websites, when they email that letter to every member whose email they have, that is CHURCH business. You cannot get any more CHURCH than that. It’s not like they were chatting to some folk at the grocery store.

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

Franklin,
You really got some blinders on brother. The brethren have talked about racism ad nauseam. This is the same talking point that the DNC currently has. They added the language in the handbook about being accepting of all people who cross our borders legally or otherwise. Again, a talking point of the DNC. Of course racism is wrong. Of course we should treat humans with compassion. However, one political party is making the argument that racism, xenophobia, and global warming are our biggest issues right now. The 1st Presidency agrees and they are parroting that message for the last 2 years. Forget about the dissolution of the family. Forget about the rise in single parent homes. Forget about the exodus of people leaving churches to lead a more secular life. Nope. Racism, Xenophobia, and global warming are the threats. You really dont see the politics in their messages??

Again, other people don't get to define things for us. Just because those evil, evil libs day something doesn't mean that they own it forcer and ever. Racism is bad. I don't care if the dnc said it. The church is correct when they say it. I don't care who else is saying it. And if you agree that racism is wrong, why are you update with the church being right? Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

I like how you side stepped the argument brother. You still dont see the bias when single parent households are ignored or the secularization of the world is forgotten about? But hey, let's talk about global warming and racism, right?
You must be a paid employee for the church.

[EmmaLee]

And the usual non-denial in 3, 2, 1....

[TheDuke]

Franklin: look it up yourself. I already read it, do a google search and you'll find it, a few months back. Also, should have been linked and posted already on this forum As for you you provided, BS. That is not what is factual. Factual has many comorbidities, ties to autopsy (yes or no) and Dr, etc... you just gave a BS statement, nothing legal, binding, mapping to funding or counting policies.

In the WA study the governor quoted the 7xx number, the WA.DOH website listed only the number that had COVID on the death certificate. At the governor's announcement of more shutdowns the head of WA.DOH was asked if Inslee's 7xx number was correct. She said yet, in public and never recanted but later the website started making caveats (after investigation) and started privately changing numbers. And it is NOTHING about what to count, remember the death certificate isn't "pick the best option" it is "pick all the applicable options" and has been interpreted as "pick any you like". the justification by WA.DOH was they use the death certificates for many, many things years down the road and every possible link should be formally documented. Example was finding some rare connection between two or three combined causes years later to help in the future. Admirable, but USELESS as a number for counting COVID deaths. If you have 1000 deaths then you have likely 12,000 causes. But, in several examples (one was brought up as the wife was sueing the government to protect her husband's name) gang member bullets to the head were considered coved as the shooter (unknown at the time) may have had covid and it drove him to the gang and on to the streets and made him pull the trigger! You can look that one up also (not sure if it was Tacoma or Olympia, but she was in a lawsuit so you should google it and find it as well).

[Serragon]

They just mandated masks at church.

I mean government mandates. What is political about delineating what happens at church? Is it political for them to buy folding chairs? Why is this political?

So since purchasing folding chairs isn't political, nothing is? Or since the brethren can delineate what happens at church, nothing they do is political? Doesn't seem to make any sense at all. But I suspect this is just another move the goalposts moment.

No, it means that we should be able to know what is political without reference to anyone else. The government doesn't get to decide what is political. We define it. Talking about vaccines, without saying that they should be government mandated, is not political.

I see.. so what is political is subjective, not objective. What nonsense.

Context and motive define what is political, not your own subjective idea about it. When the church ramps up their rhetoric against racism in conjunction with it becoming a political hot button in the culture at large, it is political. It doesn't matter how you feel about their words or how you feel about racism.


When the church tells people to vax in the context of a massive campaign by world governments to get people vaxxed, it is political. It doesn't matter how you feel about it or how you define it.

When behavior changes and it coincides with public political pressure, it is political.

[TheDuke]

BTW global warming will be an issue, when Jesus burns the place up?

[markharr]

Last year we were told that minorities should get the vaccine first. If you got the jab before every minority was vaccinated, I guess you're a racist.

[franklinbluth]

The model for what would happen if we did nothing said there would be more deaths than what we had.... after we did something?

And I don't think anyone using that model anymore, are they? We have more information now than we did, and we've updated the models accordingly. What does that have to do with trying to prevent more than the 600K already dead?

That isn't how covid deaths are counted. From the guidance for doctors:


https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14 ... 0,694.html

There's a big difference between how they're supposed to count causes of death and how the actually count them. Again, there has been a perverse incentive. Again, PCR test can have >90% inaccuracies.

Curious where you think is the best place to be on this spectrum:

dangerous/free - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - peace/slavery

Why would you think they're doing it, then? If we agree that the instructions are clear, why assume that it's being ignored?

PCR tests are not 90% inaccurate. That's just silly. People need to at least make up believable numbers. I've known lots of people who've gotten tested. Only a couple tested positive without symptoms. If it was anywhere close to 90% everyone would be seeing evidence of it all the time.

Before COVID, before last year, the cycle threshold, Ct, for the PCR test was 30, anything more resulted in excessive false positives. Throughout COVID last year, Ct was 40. The CDC dropped the recommended cycle count an hour after Biden was inaugurated, incidentally. Turns out, you can increase the number of cases (and deaths) simply by changing the number of recommended PCR amplification cycle counts!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/heal ... sting.html
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/rig ... -positives

In general, it is simply a poor tool to use.

“PCR basically takes a sample of your cells and amplifies any DNA to look for ‘viral sequences’, i.e. bits of non-human DNA that seem to match parts of a known viral genome. The problem is the test is known not to work. It uses ‘amplification’ which means taking a very very tiny amount of DNA and growing it exponentially until it can be analysed. Obviously any minute contaminations in the sample will also be amplified leading to potentially gross errors of discovery. Additionally, it’s only looking for partial viral sequences, not whole genomes, so identifying a single pathogen is next to impossible even if you ignore the other issues.The idea these kits can isolate a specific virus like COVID-19 is nonsense.”

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=30880

Several things:
1. There is not a single CT count. Different manufacturers require different CTs.

2. It did not move from 40 to 30 in January. The January memo did not say anything like that, because again, there is not a single CT for all PCR tests. You can read it yourself:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8813877642

3. That article doesn't understand amplification. It can't make some random dna into something else. (And besides, covid doesn't have dna, so I don't think he knows what he's talking about).

[franklinbluth]

Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

You called me a Trumpster yesterday.

I mean... was I wrong?

[franklinbluth]

Of you're talking about the vax, what's political about saying "Hey, get vaxed." They're not endorsing mandates or anything like that. I guess if you make everything about politics, then it would make it hard to abide by this guideline. But for most people, there's a whole lot of life that isn't about politics.

Franklin,
You really got some blinders on brother. The brethren have talked about racism ad nauseam. This is the same talking point that the DNC currently has. They added the language in the handbook about being accepting of all people who cross our borders legally or otherwise. Again, a talking point of the DNC. Of course racism is wrong. Of course we should treat humans with compassion. However, one political party is making the argument that racism, xenophobia, and global warming are our biggest issues right now. The 1st Presidency agrees and they are parroting that message for the last 2 years. Forget about the dissolution of the family. Forget about the rise in single parent homes. Forget about the exodus of people leaving churches to lead a more secular life. Nope. Racism, Xenophobia, and global warming are the threats. You really dont see the politics in their messages??

Again, other people don't get to define things for us. Just because those evil, evil libs day something doesn't mean that they own it forcer and ever. Racism is bad. I don't care if the dnc said it. The church is correct when they say it. I don't care who else is saying it. And if you agree that racism is wrong, why are you update with the church being right? Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

I like how you side stepped the argument brother. You still dont see the bias when single parent households are ignored or the secularization of the world is forgotten about? But hey, let's talk about global warming and racism, right?
You must be a paid employee for the church.

I have heard several gen con talks on single mothers. I've heard none on global warming.

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you paid to. You don't need to reconsider your own views because you're obviously always right and no one could possibly disagree.

[Serragon]

Don't let politics poison your life. Too many people these days are so defined by politics that they cannot abide saying something (even something true!) just because their political opponents also said it.

You called me a Trumpster yesterday.

I mean... was I wrong?

It's a good thing you aren't a field goal kicker. You move those goal posts so fast you would never know where to kick.

[EmmaLee]

Hahaha, like a broken record!