LDS Freedom Forum

rumors that those unvaxxed will not be allowed to pay tithes and offerings?

Why do you think Nelson first traveled the world? They surely needed Monson out of the way at the right time. Just saying.

dwell_in_safety wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:37 pm "We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

wow.

If we expand on this war analogy, then our leaders would be sergeants and leutenants taking their marching order from someone else.

If we consider the messaging and response about covid in conjunction with the changes regarding homosexuality, Law of obedience, Mormon name, and our constant emphasis multi-culturalism, it is clear that our current leaders wish us to lose our identity as Mormons and all the history and foundation that comes with it. Replacing it is an identity as a global citizen and obedience to those who wield power over you in the name of kindness.

We are seeing a 180 degree shift in the church right before our eyes.

lundbaek wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:58 pm I believe that the President of the Church, his counselors, and the Council of the Twelve Apostles receive revelations of the Lord as to the conduct of the Church and its members; that the Lord actually speaks through them as the result of the revelations which He gives them; and that therefore the members would be wise, when the President of the Church speaks, to follow his advice and counsel.

Problem. The 1P advice and counsel draws for its inspiration from "the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders" (which ones? so contradictory at this stage), not God. So for me the pinball bounces around a bit more before deciding to accept it. Which I will not, in this case.

The Creator wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 1:53 pm Cognitive dissonance levels just went up for many Church members.

cogdismeter1.png

Cognitive, spiritual, emotional, probably even social for some...everything about this is dissonant.

Lundbeak: I am still praying and trying to get an open mind to understand what FP says. I suppose if they respond to my email or further clarify their position, such that they say they have all prayed (15 not 3) and received direct revelation and maybe even seen the answer in a seeric device, and have a "thus saith the Lord" moment to clarify how they can say the vaccines are "proven safe and effective"; then I will hope the HG tells me to fall in line. It would take me both receiving a revelation and swallowing my pride, but I will. However, saying to follow Fauci, CDC, WHO, Chinese health authorities, my local health idiots, Cuomo, Inslee, Biden, Pelosi, etc..... as wise and thoughtful. Does NOT fit the pattern of revelation. More of politicking, which is ok for them to do I suppose but different than gospel leadership and revelation.

I usually follow you proposal, but this is some how off, especially after watching Eyring's deathly push for BYUI, which also didn't seem to be spiritual but emotional or political, to hope for salvation by numerical % of vaxxed. Which we all know will not work. Lies that Vax works, lies that Delta is different, lies that they even have devined a Delta virus or have a test for it. We will follow Eyring, vax, then still get shut down, but will have long term side effects?

I've gotta be honest. I kind of expected the voice of the Lord to sound a little different than Anthony Fauci

Allison wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 12:39 pm At this point, no comment:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ugust-2021

False Prophets at it again..

2Nephi 28
...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Good thing is... we are now required to make that commitment to be 'the humble followers of Christ'

No more cheating or excuses.

There is power given to those who achieve pure humility. Becoming (being) the humble followers of Christ will lead us where we want to be in this life and in the more perfect life we seek.

Helaman 10
1 And it came to pass that there arose a division among the people, insomuch that they divided hither and thither and went their ways, leaving Nephi alone, as he was standing in the midst of them.
16 But behold, the power of God was with him, and they could not take him to cast him into prison, for he was taken by the Spirit and conveyed away out of the midst of them.

lundbaek wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:58 pm I believe that the President of the Church, his counselors, and the Council of the Twelve Apostles receive revelations of the Lord as to the conduct of the Church and its members; that the Lord actually speaks through them as the result of the revelations which He gives them; and that therefore the members would be wise, when the President of the Church speaks, to follow his advice and counsel.

Sought confirmation of that my whole life. Still seeking.

Sometimes i think something is wrong with me.
Sometimes I think I am seeking the wrong objective.
Sometimes I think I am asking the wrong questions.
Sometimes i think only some are invited to know.
Sometimes I give up.

tribrac wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 4:51 pm

lundbaek wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:58 pm I believe that the President of the Church, his counselors, and the Council of the Twelve Apostles receive revelations of the Lord as to the conduct of the Church and its members; that the Lord actually speaks through them as the result of the revelations which He gives them; and that therefore the members would be wise, when the President of the Church speaks, to follow his advice and counsel.

Sought confirmation of that my whole life. Still seeking.

Sometimes i think something is wrong with me.
Sometimes I think I am seeking the wrong objective.
Sometimes I think I am asking the wrong questions.
Sometimes i think only some are invited to know.
Sometimes I give up.

The Twelve disciples are to testify of Christ throughout the world. Period.

TheDuke wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 2:49 pm I too prayed two days ago to find out if I was wrong about the vax. I have not been told I'm wrong to stay away from it. So, I will but the pressures are building on all sides (within family, at job(s), at church (leaders and friends), at stores, neighbors, co-workers that I trusted as conservative, etc...) what a lobbying effort all around. I hope the statements above that it will soon come to an end will be true. But, I'm not sure.

I recently have prayed about it as well. I was totally honest with the Lord about how I feel, but honestly put forth the effort to challenge my biases and accept a different viewpoint.

After praying, I feel confident in my choice to stay the course and not get it.

As I have said before, the #1 concern for church leadership is public relations. This comes before your rights and your salvation. The church will on a regular basis sacrifice the individual for what they consider the good of the organization.

If we are not supposed to talk about politics at church, why are the brethren constantly engaging in it? They have no problem calling out imaginary white supremacists in order to score political brownie points. Or making statements in support of BLM (carefully drawing a distinction between the organization and movement of course). Or photo ops with NAACP and Muslims along with transfer of money. Or participating on political councils in the capacity as church leaders. Or thanking all world leaders for "keeping us safe!" (has RMN never read any history? I've never seen such a naive stance on world leaders). Or telling us that they are "wise and thoughtful".

But try and get some signatures to oppose abortion on church property? You will quickly see the hammer coming strait for you. Or even wear a button supporting a particular candidate? This is not "inclusive" and will quickly be stamped out with scary threats that our tax status is at stake (though all other church's seem to be able to engage in politics as much and often as they want).

Get in line. Stop thinking. Prayerfully consider things and take them to the Lord, but if the answers don't jive w/ the primary level doctrine and rhetoric coming from Salt Lake then try again until you get it right. By all means get personal revelation, but always measure that revelation by what the current church policies are. In this way you can be convinced that you aren't really a non-thinking automaton but are wise and have great spritual depth without ever having any risk of stepping outside the proscribed lines of the "covenant path".

I would have so much more respect if the brethren actively called out the authoritarian and Satanic methods of control being exerted by our rulers instead of sanctifying them. If you truly feel it wise and want to encourage people to vax, great. But this attitude towards government and those who occupy its positions of authority has me nauseous, and this shift towards globalism and collectivism has me very concerned.

The purpose of the church is to be a beacon and be different than the world. We are to draw souls out of the world to us. But it appears we have abandoned this for a vision where the church melds in with the world and becomes subservient to it. We then become ambassadors for the worldy doctrines while dressing them up to appear Christ like. Perhaps we can some a few small truths about the Gospel in this way, but it seems to be an absolute abandonment of the very purposes of the restoration. What we are moving towards is what we already had prior to the restoration.

Wow! Not ONE mention of faith, priesthood, revelation, Holy Ghost, Christ, or God. How are you going to call yourself a prophet in today's world, and not mention any of those, but instead promote the opposite? Seers and revelators huh? Good thing they, nor the church can save me anyway.

Trucker wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 1:31 pm How do you know when he is speaking for the Lord and when he his speaking as a man?

It should be easy for people to tell.

HisWrathSoon wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 2:43 pm Why don't members protest?

Because we'll be excommunicated.

D&C 121
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (NKJV)
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: [“I will dwell in them And walk among] [them]. [I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”]
17 Therefore [“Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.”]
18 [“I] [will be a Father to you, And you shall be My] [sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.”]

Questions?

franklinbluth wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:19 pm

nvr wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:11 pm

franklinbluth wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 2:56 pm

nvr wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 2:52 pm
I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is the best-case scenario I can come up with. Hubris may have something to do with it.

Why isn't "we simply disagree" immediately higher on people's lists? Why does everyone jump straight to "Everyone who disagrees with me is doing so for evil reasons." I mean, at this point, you know that most doctors and most people generally agree with what they're saying, right? Why is it so hard to think that they're in the majority of people who've looked at it and simply came to a different conclusion than you did?

I always go back to this:

Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to threatened and coerced into taking it all for a disease so dangerous you have to take a test to even know you have it.

From the beginning, this thing has been about as dangerous as a bad seasonal flu. Yet, businesses failed, people suffered, the economy took a nosedive and inflation has spiked due to the extreme reactionary lockdowns and policies our governments have enacted. We're being solicited a gene-altering interventional treatment that hasn't undergone long-term testing for side-effects.

And now our church, which is supposed to stand for eternal truth above all else is agreeing with and supporting and advocating these same illogical and dangerous recommendations. The majority in this case is wrong - the emperor has no clothes. Our church, at the very least, should be saying 'let everyone make their own health choices after studying carefully the facts'.

That is what you think. Most people absolutely disagree. They believe that 600K Americans died from it, far more than normally die from the flu. They don't believe that mRNA is gene altering, and never even enters the nucleus where it could alter genes. They think that most of the things in our modern world haven't gone through long term studies, so they don't mind putting wifi in their homes or using a cell phone all day or using a new kind of vax.

Pres. Nelson very obviously is part of the group that disagrees with you. If someone believes that covid has killed 600K people in just America, why is it illogical to promote preventative measures? Again, I'm sure you don't think it has killed 600K, and that's fine. But when someone does think that, doesn't it make sense for them to respond as if 600K people have died?

It's certainly hasn't resulted in the 2 million deaths in the US by last October which was what the faulty Imperial computer model from UK predicted.
If you remember, this model is what was cited to push for all these insane mask and lockdown policies. That program, described as spaghetti code, would give wildly different answers on different runs with just changing formatting options. It was labelled the single most devastating software mistake in history.

Also, it's well-known that the method used to classify a COVID death is dubious - a person would die and then they'd run a PCR test afterwards (PCR tests, with the over-recommended number of amplification cycles most commonly used, are useless in determining actual infection). A person could die of a stroke or heart attack and would, with results from a faulty PCR test, get counted as a COVID death. But these details are old news, talked about all last year and it gets tiring having to repeat it. They're still using the same methods. There's been perverse incentives for hospitals to classify a death as COVID-related because of how much more Medicaid reimburses COVID hospitals. It's a racket, and lies everywhere.

I find it ironic that this has to do with medical science, and constitutional liberties, and what do we have in the first presidency? A medical doctor and an established constitutional attorney... And this is what we get.

Sirius wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 5:11 pm I find it ironic that this has to do with medical science, and constitutional liberties, and what do we have in the first presidency? A medical doctor and an established constitutional attorney... And this is what we get.

Good catch

TheDuke wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 4:25 pm rumors that those unvaxxed will not be allowed to pay tithes and offerings?

When Hell freezes over.

Oh, shoot. Did I just say a really bad swear word?

TheDuke wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 4:25 pm rumors that those unvaxxed will not be allowed to pay tithes and offerings?

Doubt it. They won’t cut themselves off from the Lords money.

One more:

Ether 8
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

Sirius wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 5:11 pm I find it ironic that this has to do with medical science, and constitutional liberties, and what do we have in the first presidency? A medical doctor and an established constitutional attorney... And this is what we get.

The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

nvr wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 5:08 pm

franklinbluth wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:19 pm

nvr wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 3:11 pm

franklinbluth wrote: ↑August 12th, 2021, 2:56 pm

Why isn't "we simply disagree" immediately higher on people's lists? Why does everyone jump straight to "Everyone who disagrees with me is doing so for evil reasons." I mean, at this point, you know that most doctors and most people generally agree with what they're saying, right? Why is it so hard to think that they're in the majority of people who've looked at it and simply came to a different conclusion than you did?

I always go back to this:

Imagine a vaccine so safe you have to threatened and coerced into taking it all for a disease so dangerous you have to take a test to even know you have it.

From the beginning, this thing has been about as dangerous as a bad seasonal flu. Yet, businesses failed, people suffered, the economy took a nosedive and inflation has spiked due to the extreme reactionary lockdowns and policies our governments have enacted. We're being solicited a gene-altering interventional treatment that hasn't undergone long-term testing for side-effects.

And now our church, which is supposed to stand for eternal truth above all else is agreeing with and supporting and advocating these same illogical and dangerous recommendations. The majority in this case is wrong - the emperor has no clothes. Our church, at the very least, should be saying 'let everyone make their own health choices after studying carefully the facts'.

That is what you think. Most people absolutely disagree. They believe that 600K Americans died from it, far more than normally die from the flu. They don't believe that mRNA is gene altering, and never even enters the nucleus where it could alter genes. They think that most of the things in our modern world haven't gone through long term studies, so they don't mind putting wifi in their homes or using a cell phone all day or using a new kind of vax.

Pres. Nelson very obviously is part of the group that disagrees with you. If someone believes that covid has killed 600K people in just America, why is it illogical to promote preventative measures? Again, I'm sure you don't think it has killed 600K, and that's fine. But when someone does think that, doesn't it make sense for them to respond as if 600K people have died?

It's certainly hasn't resulted in the 2 million deaths in the US by last October which was what the faulty Imperial computer model from UK predicted.
If you remember, this model is what was cited to push for all these insane mask and lockdown policies. That program, described as spaghetti code, would give wildly different answers on different runs with just changing formatting options. It was labelled the single most devastating software mistake in history.

Also, it's well-known that the method used to classify a COVID death is dubious - a person would die and then they'd run a PCR test afterwards (PCR tests, with the over-recommended number of amplification cycles most commonly used, are useless in determining actual infection). A person could die of a stroke or heart attack and would, with results from a faulty PCR test, get counted as a COVID death. But these details are old news, talked about all last year and it gets tiring having to repeat it. They're still using the same methods. There's been perverse incentives for hospitals to classify a death as COVID-related because of how much more Medicaid reimburses COVID hospitals. It's a racket, and lies everywhere.

The model for what would happen if we did nothing said there would be more deaths than what we had.... after we did something?

And I don't think anyone using that model anymore, are they? We have more information now than we did, and we've updated the models accordingly. What does that have to do with trying to prevent more than the 600K already dead?

That isn't how covid deaths are counted. From the guidance for doctors:

If the patient was a confirmed COVID-19 case, but the cause of death was not related to COVID-19 nor did COVID-19 contribute to the death, how should the physician complete the death certificate?

If COVID-19 was unrelated to the cause of death and not a contributing factor, it should not be included in Part I or II of the death certificate.

https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14 ... 0,694.html