Isaiah's Babylon-Cyrus Connection

[pjbrownie]

I have been doing an in-depth study of Isaiah with focus on types and shadows for moder-day Israel. In the beginning of Isaiah, the focus is on Assyria, Ephraim, the conquest of the lost 10 tribes with a type and shadow of a repetition in the last days of Ephraim being the Americans asleep at the wheel or wider America, Egypt as the old order (Europe) Syria, and Ephriam confederating to subject Judah (the righteous of America, or the Church). This is simplified, but for the purposes of this discussion, this can suffice. Towards the middle, Assyria attacks Judah and is driven back by divine intervention (symoblic of how he Lord will drive a modern Assyrian power, used to cleanse the wicked gadiantions from Israel) back to their own lands. Now this is where it gets confusing for me. The Lord warns Hezekiah of Babylon, the next empire to come. I don't believe this part has any reference to end days, but bear with me. In subsequent chapters, Babylon becomes the new type, as well as Cyrus of Persia as a type for the deliverer. What I'm trying to figure out is this:

1. In talking about Babylon, is Isaiah using it as a type for a kingdom that will replace Assyria in our modern structure (aka, the Beast) or is he using Babylon as another type in the same manner as Assyria? I know this is where some people speculate that there are two or possible three Isaiahs here. If it is in a modern chronological structure, we could expect that although Judah escapes Assyria (a modern interpretation being that the Church escapes an invading army of cleansers, probably Russians and Chinese) it is then delivered into temporary bondage of a second kingdom that rises up afterwards. We are in temporary bondage, until a deliverer (a modern Cyrus) rescues us and we are free to go back to build up New Jerusalem. Am I reading too much into this, or should I view Babylon as another type for Assyria, and Cyrus as either a modern prophet or deliverer king, or Christ for that matter, that delivers us out of the hand of Babylon (or Assyria) into our own Holy Lands?

2. Who is this Cyrus? Is he the Davidic King I hear so much about, or a modern prophet, or Christ?

3. Is Isaiah just prophesying about ancient Babylon, and we use the ancient prophecy as symbolic only to our own times?

What say ye?

[pjbrownie]

Anybody, Bob?

[pjbrownie]

Dr. Jones, care to answer, do you have an opinion on this?

[bobhenstra]

P.J.

As I understand it, the type and shadow of "Cyrus in our day" is the son of the first Assyrian who suffers the same fate as most tyrants, he is murdered. Our Cyrus is the wicked leader who cleanses the wicked of the rest of the world after we are cleansed and are recovering. It's him who puts him army on the sea to attack us, or perhaps just to approach, check us out, What the hecks happening over there in Zion? But his army (navy) sees the great light from Zion from afar off, scaring them spitless; Paraphrasing here, "Let us not go unto Zion, for the inhabitants there are terrible!"

Now, I'll have to get back to you on this, I can't find my reference book that I trust most! And there is an outside chance (very small at my young age ) that I'm confusing Cyrus with another "type!"

I Don't see him as an allie, but as a pawn! He didn't know the Lord; (Isa 45:4)

I just answered because you seemed--- a bit frantic--------------------

Where the heck is that book---------------

Bob

[pjbrownie]

Thanks, Bob.

I'm not as frantic as I was. I posted this question while I have been doing my own study. I'm not sure what I think of all the "deutero-Isaiah" crap on the Internet. Seems like a scholar's way to crush the idea that there may be a prophet that predicts the fugture (since Isaiah was in 700 BC and the new Babylonian empire and the subsequent Persian empire came 100 and 200 years later. Even so, it does seem intersting that Isaiah switches types for Israel, first as Assyria, second, as Cyrus, although the Persian connection has a more sympathetic view. Alas, I think I have some a handle on it. From my readings, I concur.

1. Babylon in Isaiah is a type of the same Babylon mentioned in Revelations, it is the whore of all the earth. It is also a reinforcement and deeper type linked to the drunkards of Ephraim, the confederacy of Ephraim and Syria, as well as the old order of Egypt we find earlier in the book. I believe Isaiah writes for us, so in his immediate visions that cover the next 300 or so years, he links it to the visions he sees in our day (which is the only time period Isaiah makes total sense, looking back to the meridian of time - and ancient history as the guide). This Babylon is a conqueror of Israel (Judah), who has been obsessed with her idols - idols which will not save. Our modern idol worship is the love of money and riches, we have bought into Babylon, and Babylon, when her time is ripe, will use it to temporarily bring us into captivity and bondage (perhaps as long as seven years, or seventy depending on how your see our captivity today - reconing from 2011-12, you have Pearl Harbor, so maybe America has been a captive of Babylon all this time).

2. Babylon will be destoyed in a day by Persia (Cyrus) and Israel will be set free to go build her temple (in New Jerusalem). I see that Cyrus is a type for Assyria, but not the invador Assyria, which is wicked and knows not that he is the rod of the Lord's indignation - and is subsequently destroyed, but a more kinder and benevolent type - one that is linked to the nursing fathers and nursing mothers. This could indicate the change in heart from the future invading king of the North, initially a retributive tyrant, that then turns into a benefactor for Israel helping to facilitate the gathering of the Lost tribes to the New Jerusalem and eventually Israel. We know that this is probably Russia, but we also know that Russia is the Beast. But there are two beasts, so perhaps this type for Cyrus is as intermin king that is the nursing father and nursing mother for a time, until the second beast (Gog) comes to the throne and turns against Israel and unites for Armageddon.

Ah, there is so much to learn!

[bobhenstra]

P.J.

There, right there you got it!

Found that book! Instead of being on the "SHELF" where it belongs, it was in one of several stacks of books and talks around my computer. I'm the only one here, hmmm------------

Isaiah Made Easier" by David Ridges. Great book for understanding "types" It’ll open your eyes. Doesn't tell you what the whys and wherefores are, just explains what Isaiah was saying in modern day English without changing the Elizabethan text.

Years ago I had a friend in Denver who was a lay minister in a small church. We used to have great discussions, he was very intelligent, well versed and hated it when I would pin him down on a particular subject. But he wanted to make his living as a paid minister, and did very well. One time he ask me what my favorite book in the Bible was, I answered "Isaiah" he responded with "I can't make any sense out of Isaiah, his words are nothing but confusion to me!" I answered with, Isaiah wasn't meant for you! He starred coldly at me for several seconds, then responded with, "whatever it takes I'm going to understand Isaiah!" I ask him if he wanted any hints, he replied with " HELL NO" I'll figure it out. When I left we were laughing together.

The next time I saw him he ask me for some hints, when I pulled out my Book of Mormon he objected. I explained why I needed the book to first explain why Isaiah wasn't meant for him, he nodded and patiently listened while I explained the keys to understanding Isaiah from the Book of Mormon. He was very interested by the time I finished, then he said "but I can't use that book explaining Isaiah to my congregation," That's ok, I replied, just say you discovered the key to understanding Isaiah and wished to share it with them, you don't have to say where! What I didn't say was "they'll all eventually discover the B of M and figure it out, then they’ll all know where YOU got it from!” Didn’t say that---wanted to,--- but I held my tongue-------- Little of Ammon’s guile there---

We had several very nice discussions about Isaiah, I was able to bear my testimony several times. However, as far as I know, he’s still a minister of a small church in Denver, haven’t seen him for almost twenty years now.

P.J. except for a relatively few books like David’s book, I have learned to pretty much stay with the scripture and words of the prophets, they’re their own best teacher.

Bob

[pjbrownie]

Oh man, I totally agree! Got sick and tired of the RKY, dreamer stuff, so I decided to stay with the scriptures. I have been doing fairly good with Isaiah up until I got stuck on the Babylon-Cyrus stuff. Also got a bit confused by the nusing fathers and nusing mothers. Thanks to the do-gooders in Sunday School that have tried to interpret the nusing fathers and mother (Gentile nations) as the goodness of the United Nations passing the Israel charter in 1948. Now I realize it is a yet future event - and its nice to know that not all non-Zion nations will be against us - that some will be on our side. I suspect that by the time of the cleanse (after Babylon the Whore is vanquished) that whats left of the Gentile nations may be on our side (including America).

As far as Cyrus goes - still very confusing - especially when your trying to tie in all the types with other scripture. When its apparant that Assyria is vanquished by the Lord, it appeared to me that it is the Lord that sets his people free, allowing them to gather for New Jerusalem. Now I sense that there is a future king (of the vanquishing army) that will rise up and charter the trip possibly. I'm almost wondering if this modern Cyrus is a leader of the lost tribes or a breakaway faction from the Russian area. Very interesting. We will know when the types come to pass, that's true. I'm almost ten chapters to the end of Isaiah (with references to BOM interpretation), then I'm finishing Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, and Zechariah. Then onto Daniel and Ezekiel. Finally, I will end up with Matthew 24, select NT, and Revelations. I've decided to compile a eschatology timeline just for my family. From what I've learned, if you want to understand the end days, start with the BOM and Isaiah first, or you're going to get lost in Revelations.

[bobhenstra]

The problem we have is in properly understanding the phrases, essentially in “seeing” the key phrases while we read them or “hearing” them while we listen to them. How often we read right past a key phrase, not seeing the message therein, and missing the real understanding intended. Example; There is a scriptural statement made in several places that is often used out of context because of a less then desirible interpretation of the phrase that often is the first to pop into a persons mind.

“26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men's hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.” (Doctrine and Covenants 45:26.)

“Men’s hearts shall fail them”

Did you see that statement, or did you read right past it? What’s the first interpretation that jumped into your mind? Perhaps that there’s going to be a lot of “heart attacks?” Hope not, that’d be the wrong interpretation, the right one being ; It actually refers to simply giving up hope, no faith, no courage, no skills of “applying their hearts to understanding,” why? Because of a lack of knowledge! Many men who fail to gain sufficient scriptural knowledge will give up in fear simply because the haven’t the heart (spiritual guidance) to continue on. So there will be much doom, gloom, despair! And perhaps even some people jumping out of tall buildings, and maybe one or two heart attacks their kin will blame on troubled times.

Now, understanding why we must apply our hearts properly, lets get back to our modern day Cyrus; And why he is explained so “well” in the 45th chapter of Isaiah.

Remembering, this being an exercise in “seeing and hearing,” We’ll need to read and ponder!

First, speaking of the war, we suppose to be waged by Cyrus mentioned in Isa 45. And wars mentioned in D&C 45 we’ll read “again” D&C 60:4 and D&C 117:6--- Watch for the phrases!

4 For I, the Lord, rule in the heavens above, and among the armies of the earth; and in the day when I shall make up my jewels, all men shall know what it is that bespeaketh the power of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 60:4.)

6 For have I not the fowls of heaven, and also the fish of the sea, and the beasts of the mountains? Have I not made the earth? Do I not hold the destinies of all the armies of the nations of the earth? (Doctrine and Covenants 117:6.)

Did you see “(rule) among the armies of the earth?”

And, did you see;

“Do I not hold the destinies of all the armies of the nations of the earth?”

We learn here that the Lord ruled the army of Cyrus in Isaiah’s day and will rule the army of our Cyrus in our day. In fact, he rules all the armies, but this conversation is about one specific army, a “type!”

Now, keeping the above phrases from the D&C in your mind, properly reading and pondering, reading several verses at a time, the 45th chapter of Isaiah,-- Again!

Please, let us hear what you “see!”

Bob

[NoGreaterLove]

The way I understand Cyrus is as a type and shadow of later event. I believe the return of Christ to Jerusalem was typed and shadowed by Cyrus.

These are some references I found:


1 Ne 20:14
Who among them hath declared these things? Which of the gods of the nations had declared beforehand what was about to happen? The Lord had previously announced, through his prophet, that he would raise up a "shepherd," "his anointed" i.e. his Messiah, to cause Jerusalem and the temple to be rebuilt, and Babylon to fall (Isa. 44:28; 45:1-4). He even gives his name, Cyrus (Heb. Koresh), and now he asks, Has any god thus lifted the veil of the future? True prophecy is strong evidence of the truth of the prophet and his religion.

1 Ne 20 14 The Lord hath loved him. Refers to Cyrus, and his conquest of Babylon.

15. He shall make his way prosperous. The Lord would be on the side of Cyrus. The Chaldeans had had their opportunity. Through the prophet Daniel and other captives of Judah, the Lord had demonstrated his power so forcibly that Nebuchadnezzar proclaimed the God of Israel to be the only true God. He said: "Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase." (Dan. 4:37) But the people fell back to the worship of idols and debauchery judgment.

16. Come ye near unto me. The Lord now addresses the nations of the world.

16. From the time that it was declared. From the time the decree concerning Cyrus was determined on, the prophet had spoken of it, as the Lord God and his Spirit sent him to do. Note the three persons in the Godhead. In this verse we learn that the prophet was sent by "The Lord God" (Elohim) and his Spirit; in the next verse Jehovah, "the Holy One of Israel," speaks.
(George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, edited and arranged by Philip C. Reynolds, 7 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1955-1961], 1: 211.)


Cyrus was named by the Lord before he was born, through the mouth of the prophet; and when the time came, as King Belshazzar and his princes were feasting and drinking wine out of the cups that had been brought from the temple at Jerusalem, he took possession of the city and carried off the treasures. The army of Cyrus turned the river out of its course and walked in under the walls of the city. Belshazzar was taken prisoner and slain, and the city went into the hands of people they were not looking for. What did Cyrus do when he took the city of Babylon? He took the riches—cattle, horses and property—there was in that city and offered them as a sacrifice to the great God. This is the course that a heathen king took; and we understand, from history, that Cyrus pursued this course all his life. Whenever he took a city he went and offered sacrifice to the great God, the God of heaven. You may trace this through the whole history of the world until the present hour and you will find that that God who sits enthroned on high has governed and controlled all these things. He will do the same today
(Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses, 5 vols. [Burbank, Calif., and Woodland Hills, Ut.: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992], 2: .)

We learn from the prophecy of Isaiah that the Lord named Cyrus, the Persian king, some two hundred years before he was born, Isaiah 44:28 and 45:1.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 3: 34.)

We read in the Bible that this was the case with Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5. ) and John the Baptist who was called to be the messenger to prepare the way before the Lord. (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13.) Nor were these pre-mortal callings confined to the prophets, for in a remarkable prophecy made by Isaiah, the Lord revealed the mission which was assigned to Cyrus, king of Persia, over one hundred years before he was born. (Isaiah 44:28;Isaiah 45:1-3.)
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 5: 181.)

A partial restoration of the Temple was made after the Jews returned from their captivity; and through the friendly influence of Cyrus and Darius, the Temple of Zerubbabel was dedicated
(James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 139.)

For seventy years the people remained in subjection, and this was in accordance with the prophecy of Jeremiah; fn then the Lord softened the hearts of the ruling kings, and the work of emancipation was begun by Cyrus the Persian. The Hebrew people were permitted to return to Judea and to rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem.
(James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 285.)

perseverance and generosity of a Cyrus
(Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 32.)

The Lord now commands all Israel to assemble and hear an important prediction. Which of the false gods ("who among them") of the nations has been able to foretell the rise of Cyrus (cf. Isaiah 44:28; Isaiah 45:1) and his conquest of hated Babylon? The Lord loves Cyrus (as is present) and through him will perform his pleasure upon Babylon and make his way prosperous. (Cyrus conquered Babylon about 539 B.C.)


(Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 130.)

5. Josephus says that Cyrus the king was especially impressed by a prophecy of Isaiah to the effect that God had chosen him (Cyrus) to send Israel back to their own land and to build the temple. There then follows a rather extended description of how Cyrus helped the Jews to go to their native land and begin the reconstruction of the temple. (Antiquities, XI, 1, 2.) Josephus also makes the following interesting statement concerning Isaiah:

Now as to this prophet, he was by the confession of all a divine and wonderful man in speaking truth and out of the assurance that he had never written what was false, he wrote down all his prophecies, and left them behind him in books, that their accomplishment might be judged of from the events by posterity. (Antiquities, X, 2.)


(Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 504.)

[pjbrownie]

Two takeaways from your last post are this:

We always focus on "wars and rumors of wars". We seldom focus on "men's hearts failing them" which is important. As longs as I have been born, my parents, and my grandparents, etc. etc. there have been wars and rumors or wars, but lets be careful here. The whole earth must be in commotion, as well, the admontion in other scriptures warning Israel of trouble in their own lands (it appears they aren't much focused on this). And "men's hearts shall fail them." This is worldwide. Thus, from appearances of scriptures, while the prophecy of wars and rumors of wars have been building, the utter fulfillment is yet futrure, when it is completely worldwide, when there seems to be no hope (outside of Christ). In other words, even in our previous wars, there was always hope and bravery on both sides until there appeared a victor and vanquished, and then only the vanquished lost all hope. This time around, all of mankind's hearts will fail. The scope is taht drastic.

Second, I "saw" and "heard." on our modern Cyrus. He will gather up the hidden treasures. We know these are the Lost tribes. So . . . while Assyria may be the rod of the Lord's indignation, it too will fall. Cyrus represents another Gentile kingdom that brings with him the Lost Tribes, jewels of the lord, hidden jewels, that become the army of Zion unto New Jerusalem. It is a mystery what kingdom he is from, other than he is from the east.

[NoGreaterLove]

I was with you all the way on that one, until you said:

Cyrus represents another Gentile kingdom that brings with him the Lost Tribes

I am not so sure about this. Could be, but I am leaning more towards not. Cyrus has been used to describe the qualities of Joseph Smith. I still lean towards Cyrus represent Christ himself restoring Jerusalem and its temple, the waters flowing from the temple, sacrificing their gods, etc. The similarities of what Cyrus did for Jerusalem in his day and what Christ will do for Jerusalem in His day are remarkable!

[pjbrownie]

Except in Isaiah 45 it describes him as not knowing God, yet being used by God, so it couldn't be a prophet or Chist himself.

[NoGreaterLove]

It also describes him as being anointed and in other scriptures, called of God. He was preordained and set apart, anointed, called of God, Joseph Smith was said to have some of his characteristics. I dont know?

[NoGreaterLove]

These are some of the reasons I think there is a shadow of Christ when Cyrus overtook Jerusalem and built the temple.
He obviously knew God and obeyed him. He was commissioned to build the temple in Jerusalem.

Ezra Taft Benson:
King Cyrus lived more than five hundred years before Christ and figured in prophecies of the Old Testament mentioned in 2 Chronicles and the book of Ezra, and by the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Daniel.
The Bible states how "the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia." (2 Chr. 36:22.) Cyrus restored certain political and social rights to the captive Hebrews, gave them permission to return to Jerusalem, and directed that Jehovah's temple should be rebuilt.

Parley P. Pratt, in describing the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that he had "the boldness, courage, temperance, perseverance and generosity of a Cyrus." (Autobiography of Parley Parker Pratt, Deseret Book, 1938, p. 46.)President Wilford Woodruff said:Now I have thought many times that some of those ancient kings that were raised up, had in some respects more regard for the carrying out of some of these principles and laws, than even the Latter-day Saints have in our day. I will take as an ensample Cyrus. . . . To trace the life of Cyrus from his birth to his death, whether he knew it or not, it looked as though he lived by inspiration in all his movements. He began with that temperance and virtue which would sustain any Christian country or any Christian king. . . . Many of these principles followed him, and I have thought many of them were worthy, in many respects, the attention of men who have the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 315-16.)

Geroge Reynolds:
Cyrus, the Persian ruler, is by the Lord himself accorded such titles as "my shepherd" (Isa. 44:28), his "Anointed" fn (Isa. 45:28). According to 2 Chron. 36:22, the Lord inspired Cyrus to set the exiles free, and he acknowledged that, "The Lord God of heaven hath charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem."

2 Chronicles 36:22-23
22 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.


Isaiah 44:28
28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:1
1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Ezra Taft Benson:
With the help of King Cyrus the Great, whom the Lord inspired, the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity and erected a second temple, though much inferior to Solomon's.

[NoGreaterLove]

I have re read my posts and want to clarify something. I am not saying that Cyrus means Christ. I am saying when it speaks of Cyrus, it is saying that Christ's return will cause conditions that existed when Cyrus aided Jerusalem. Cyrus represents a state of things as they are, not a kingdom or person. It is a representation of an event that will occur that is typified by an earlier event.

[pjbrownie]

I think both Cyrus of the past and future are "types" of Christ, but the actual characters (both prior and future) do not know of the gospel - they may be dry disciples, but they are outside of Israel in general. History is cyclical - the Lord plans it that way on purpose - that's why Isaiah and other Bible prophets will only make total sense in the end of things - they had to write of prophecy in a way that would describe multiple events.

[NoGreaterLove]

Its cool huh?

[bobhenstra]

I wonder if the challenge here is to realize “chain of command” In the chain of command each commander takes credit for his successes, “and” his failures.

WW 11 for example, President Truman, Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito were the “commanders in chiefs” of their respective war machines. Each commander in chief had his generals under him, for example President Truman had General Marshal, under General Marshal were people like General Eisenhower and General MacArthur, under them were generals like Bradley, Patton, Wainright, saying nothing of various Admirals. Even Captain Moroni had his chain of command, and Moroni was a great prophet.

Cyrus is called by some a prophet! By who’s calling was he a prophet? P.J. and Isaiah point out “he (Cyrus) “never” knew the Lord” (Isaiah 45:4) so how can he legitimately be called a prophet? As pointed out above by NGL, President Woodruff called Cyrus a heathen king.

Cyrus as I understand it is a type for our day,-- who might that type be, a heathen? Are Cyrus and Moroni birds of a feather?

Since we know the Lord rules over all the armies of the earth, during WW II, did the Lord call a single member of the LDS Church to lead an army? Were any of the great generals or admirals on the winning side LDS? Why, or why not?

How about the losing side, we have record that Mormon led his army knowing it would be destroyed, the losing side, yet Mormon and his son Moroni were both prophets, ---were they not? We’re any of Hitler’s or Hirohito’s generals LDS?

So, with the Cyrus of Isaiah’s day and his “type” of our day, who is in Cyrus’s chain of command, perhaps our prophet? If so, shouldn’t we members get a chance to sustain him, or is he going to be a big secret?

How will we recognize him? Will we have need to do so?

Pondering-------still searching!

Bob