Can We Unite and Fight Together? What is it We Agree On?

[ktg]

Around these parts, home and visitng teachers are expected to present the First Presidency Message each month.

Wow, do you people do radical things like read the handbook, too?

There's a handbook? I don't recall ever hearing about the 'proper' way to home teach, besides 'keep it less than 45 minutes'.

[creator]

It would be cool to all have a meet. All the people on this forum get together in like Utah or something for a big barbaque and such. make a weekend out of it

There are some upcoming meetings in the works. Just follow these two threads:
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6090
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3681
and be sure to vote on the poll and give your input on very you want to attend or if you have other suggestions. Thanks.

[NoGreaterLove]

I know many like to liken the scriptures unto themselves and use themes or events in the scriptures to be a shadow or parallel for what we are experiencing now. Can someone show me a time when someone other than the prophet lead the saints against the gadianton government?

[NoGreaterLove]

The greatest parallel we have for our type of government which was established by God is in the Book of Mormon. This government had the right to vote. The only times I see a rebellion against the governing body was when a prophet took the lead and rent his coat.
Do you think we should stick by the prophet on such a major issue that effects the saints as a whole?

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared that it will be the elders of Israel, not the Church, who will step forward to help save the Constitution. And have the elders been warned? Yes, they have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," will use their own free will, the counsel of the prophets, and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who enter the battle "in a good cause" and bring to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

Ezra Taft Benson

I see something else happening, something good. I see a resurgence of faith and decency. I see a restless public saying, "Hey now, we're getting close to the limit of some things!" I see the rank and file joining to express a collective will. I hear them saying: "We've had enough of extremes. We want balanced, common, garden-variety democracy."It has been prophesied that the Constitution of the United States will hang by a thread and that the elders of Israel will step forth to save it (Brigham Young, Journal History, 4 July 1854; Church News, 15 December 1948). In my mind that does not require a few heroes in public office steering some saving legislation through the halls of Congress, neither some brilliant military leaders rallying our defense against an invading army. In my mind, it could well be brought about by the rank and file of men and women of faith who revere the Constitution and believe that the strength of democracy rests in the ordinary family and in each member of it.That saving strength rests in ordinary fathers and mothers who do not neglect the spiritual development of their children. It rests in fathers and mothers who will send their sons and daughters to the four corners of the earth to teach that if we will follow in His word, "then [we will be his] disciples indeed; and [we] shall know the truth, and the truth shall make [us] free" (John 8:31-32).Patrick and Nathan, we need you! George and Abraham, we need you! We need your heroic kind of patriotism! Josiah and James and Peter and Hannah, we need you most of all. We need you right where you are, in ordinary towns living in ordinary homes, going to ordinary jobs, sending your children to ordinary schools, and taking them to ordinary churches to worship God. That will secure to us the moral fiber from which will come the extraordinary patriotism and the extraordinary faith to keep us free.Address given at American Freedom Festival, Provo, Utah, 25 June 1989. Boyd K. Packer

If tradition can be relied upon, Joseph Smith prophesied that the Elders of Israel would save this Nation in the hour of its extremest peril. At a time when anarchy would threaten the life of the Government, and the Constitution would be hanging as by a thread, the maligned and misunderstood "Mormons"—always patriotic, and necessarily so from the very genius of their religion—would stand firm upon Freedom's rocky ramparts, and as champions of law and order, of liberty and justice, call to their aid in the same grand cause kindred spirits from every part of the nation and from every corner of the world. All this preparatory to a mighty movement that would sweep every form of evil from off the face of the land, and rear the Zion of God upon the spot consecrated for that purpose. This trad
Orson F. Whitney

Harold B. Lee gives a long speech about the constitution and what we are to do to defend it. If anyone is interested I can send it to them. No where does it talk of taking up arms. In fact it talks of legal peaceful means. This is one of the statements::

We must not take the law into our own hands. Now there is another danger that confronts us. There seem to be those among us who are as wolves among the flock, trying to lead some who are weak and unwary among Church members, according to reports that have reached us, who are taking the law into their own hands by refusing to pay their income tax because they have some political disagreement with constituted authorities.Laws, Others have tried to marshal civilians, without police authority, and to arm themselves to battle against possible dangers, little realizing that in so doing they themselves become the ones who, by obstructing the constituted authority, would become subject to arrest and imprisonment. We have even heard of someone claiming Church membership in protest against pornographic pictures being displayed in theaters, having planted bombs, and therefore becoming subject to punishment by the law and subsequently standing judgment before the disciplinary bodies of the Church. While we must stand solidly behind those who are trying to stamp out the filthy and provocative display of so-called pornographic materials, we have but one answer to all those who thus take such radical measures, and this is the word of the Lord: "Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat. Let no man break the laws of the land until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet." (D&C 58:20-22.) (72-42, p. 106)

[Zowieink]

I consider it a tragedy that there will be practically no interest in freedom or Constitution in our stake unless/until the stake presidency decides to make them an issue.

I think this is particularly true throughout the United States. I think for most Americans especially church members, its absolutely unthinkable that the federal government would fall. In discussions with ward members, they don't want to hear anything because it causes them stress and their "perfect lds world" is then not perfect anymore. You know, If I obey the commandments, do my calling, go to the temple, etc. I will be protected. How do you get past that kind of thinking, without a major kick in the head from the prophet?

[creator]

Can someone show me a time when someone other than the prophet lead the saints against the gadianton government?

Yes, You showed us in your quote below, Captain Moroni

The only times I see a rebellion against the governing body was when a prophet took the lead and rent his coat. Do you think we should stick by the prophet on such a major issue that effects the saints as a whole?

A prophet took the lead and rent his coat? I believe that Captain Moroni was not a prophet, he was a great statesman.

It was said of the young and valiant Captain Moroni: “If all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.”

Captain Moroni, not to be confused with the Prophet Moroni.

[Blip]

Maybe stake presidents actually follow orders from the higher ups. There is a lot to be said for that. You ever wonder why you all are not stake presidents, or what actual power they might have at their command under the proper orders? Hmmmm

It is more important to follow orders to sustain a system. Despite what you all think. They have been given no orders at this time to preach about tyrants in the goverment. But if they are I am sure that you all will be some of the first advisors that they call up.

Or you can do your own thing, start having secret meetings, create militias that are trained in the arts of war that will be called patriots and risk becoming a secret combination yourself. Hmmm....now that one has been used more than once with me.

Monson is our living Moroni. Do you think God would leave us without?..........Apostates.

[jbalm]

Geez Blip,

You're usually a nut case, but your last post was darn good.

Well done.

[buffalo_girl]

However, I do not share the sentiments of some who have alluded to underground movements etc..

Not having read every post I must confess being somewhat ignorant here...where was it alluded to that we should have 'underground movements' and 'secret meetings'?

[Blip]

You're usually a nut case.

Yes, but I am a dedicated one.

[NoGreaterLove]

I am not the only one who got this type of feeling from the posts.

Everything/everyone is being monitored and recorded. I think it is a bad idea for you all to communicate here on some things. I would suggest that you get eachother's addresses and come up with some code that only you understand and communicate/shcedule in that way if you are going to start an "underground". You are getting into some messy waters on that and will be treated as a cell if you are not careful. But chances are that everyone will be treated as such anyway. You would need a good front like 'feeding the homeless get togethers'. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole and like the idea of waiting for church leaders to say something. Any of that activity would attract flies.

[NoGreaterLove]

I would love to unite to defend the constitution based upon the Christlike way presented by many Prophets. Some of the prophets have went into detail on how to accomplish these tasks. They are all peaceful ways and follow the laws of the land. If we were to unite under these guidelines, I am all for it! Otherwise, I will stand aside and look for other opportunities. I have monitored this site for a few years now and am quite aware of the methods many think are appropriate. I strongly disagree with those methods and have been careful to tow a straight line when discussing how to defend the constitution.

When I see the opportunity to join a group that defends it properly, I am in! Otherwise..................

[buffalo_girl]

I have monitored this site for a few years now and am quite aware of the methods many think are appropriate. I strongly disagree with those methods and have been careful to tow a straight line when discussing how to defend the constitution.

Again, I'm hearing a reference to "methods", but have not seen evidence of 'wrongdoing' or actual overt 'plans' contrary to law or First Ammendment Right to Free Speach on the part of law abiding citizens.

Nor do I see any reference to the use of violence other than against lazy Mormon neighbors unwilling to put up a year's supply of provisions thinking it their 'right' to share in what the more provident Mormon families have in their food storage.

Although I don't necessarily agree with that point of view, I can understand it.

I have heard no one advocating anything other than working to correct laws of the land through the legislative process in order to align this Nation more closely with constitutional law - both state and federal.

Why even 'monitor' this site if it offends or frightens you?

[buffalo_girl]

I listened to CHH the first couple of months he was on the Forum. Once in awhile, I check in to see how he is doing. His thyroid works a whole lot better than mine does. I get tired just trying to follow his verbal energy bursts.

Actually, CHH does know and follow the laws of the land.

I differ with CHH on his opinion of the General Authorities of the Church, and I understand why he feels the way he does about them. I just don't share his conviction on that particular opinion.

[jbalm]

Actually, CHH does know and follow the laws of the land.

I beg to differ.

[creator]

Actually, CHH does know and follow the laws of the land.

I beg to differ.

As Latter-day Saints, we are only required to obey that law which is constitutional and supports freedom...

D&C 98:5-7: And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land; And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

One of the biggest misunderstandings I see is when members read the 12th Article of Faith and take it at face value without understanding what the Lord has defined as "the Law of the land" AoF12: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law".

Benson, Andersen, Skousen all understood that the income tax was unconstitutional, so regarding CHH, I'd say he is obeying the law of the land. However, Benson, Andersen and Skousen advised people to file their taxes. Skousen said you're more effective out of jail than in jail. Also, most of us don't have the level of understanding as CHH does on the income tax, which is how he's able to fight it and remain free (while others sometimes end up in jail).

Since this is starting to go off topic from discussing "Can We Unite and Fight Together?" Here's a discussion on the subject of the Law of the Land: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =19&t=6144

[creator]

I would love to unite to defend the constitution based upon the Christlike way presented by many Prophets. Some of the prophets have went into detail on how to accomplish these tasks. They are all peaceful ways and follow the laws of the land. If we were to unite under these guidelines, I am all for it! Otherwise, I will stand aside and look for other opportunities. I have monitored this site for a few years now and am quite aware of the methods many think are appropriate. I strongly disagree with those methods and have been careful to tow a straight line when discussing how to defend the constitution.
When I see the opportunity to join a group that defends it properly, I am in! Otherwise..................

I think you'll find that there are many groups out there that are already "defending it properly".. so which one are you going to join?

It really is a matter of how you want to be involved.
The John Birch Society, which Ezra Taft Benson recommended, is still very active in educating and also having its members contact gov. representatives to voice their opinion on various bills.
The Eagle Forum is very active at the State capitol here in Utah. If you want to experience making a difference on the hill, join the Eagle Forum.
There is the Campaign for Liberty involved in education.
End the Fed is planning rallies to protest the Federal Reserve.
BYU Freedom Society is organizing a monthly speakers bureau to educate people.
Personally my interest with LatterdayConservative.com and my other efforts are in educating people.
There is also the RLC (Republican Liberty Caucus) trying to get good people in as delegates and leaders of the Republican Party.
There are many others. Those are just the ones I am more familiar with.

I honestly don't think you could say that any of these groups are not defending the Constitution properly.

[buffalo_girl]

Yes, I respect CHH conviction and courage. I envy his energy.

[Blip]

I would like to give CHH a big 20 minute Hug.

[Blip]

I would like to give CHH a big 20 minute Hug.

That wouldn't be a taser in my front pocket, CHH...........................It would probably be my digital camera. I always have a habbit of leaving it in my front pocket.

[NoGreaterLove]

D&C 98:5-7: And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land; And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

My own thoughts on this scripture is based upon what befriending means
befriend:Verb:to become a friend to
o·bey·ing,.1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of.2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).

Two different meanings.

19 For verily I say unto you, my law shall be kept on this land.
20 Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat.
21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

I think the Lord was pretty clear on this.

[NoGreaterLove]

We can be a friend to the constitution by lawfully trying to change the laws to conform to it. Not by disobeying the laws in any respect to gain that purpose. I will support lawful means to change any law that does not support the constitution.

Christ has made it clear that we are to obey the laws of the land. We are to befriend the constitution. That does not mean we break the laws to defend the constitution. The overthrow of the government who violates e His constitution will be by Christ. See the last post. It is very clear what he expects out of us. He did not use confusing words. Befriend, no need to break.

When the keys are transferred to Christ, He will reign and then His laws will support the constitution, then he will be our government. Until then we are to fight within the bounds of the law whether they be constitutional or not to accomplish the task of purifying our government.

It seems we will not be successful in this task until Christ comes, but the burden is still ours to lawfully do.

[NoGreaterLove]

Zowieink

I was included in an interesting discussion with the Church

I wonder at what level this meeting was? Are we talking about a meeting lead by priesthood authority acting under the direction of there stewardship or just a bunch of lds gathering? Not to be cynical, just trying to understand what kind of meeting this was.