Can We Unite and Fight Together? What is it We Agree On?

[Rosabella]

I feel we are truly at the time when the constitution is hanging by a thread, but there is still that thread! What is it we are supposed to do at that time? Give up? Or fight harder? What did Joseph Smith say? The battle is not over, we are losing….. but it is not lost yet.

There are really great folks out there that believe the way we do…..the numbers are there that might be able to sway this and delay it for a while……but the question is can we unite to do that. I feel too many people even on this site are fighting amongst themselves on issues of what is the best way to fight the NWO. Maybe there is not best way, maybe there are many ways and all can help. Lucifer wants us to focus on OUR way, to keep infighting going. The only Best way is a to be United.

A particular point becomes the Big issue to one person…but in the real big scope of things it is not the “big issue”. It is one of the many issues. This is something the adversary is using to take our energy away from the real big battle and fighting our mutual enemy.

Instead we are biting each other demanding our particular idea is the more important then others or what we do is more important that what others do. Or others are not doing it the exact way we would do it!

Guys this is PRIDE we are falling hook line and sinker for it!

In truth they all important they all should be addressed and given a voice. But we must find out what is it that we All agree on? There lies the way to fight this. UNITY! What is it that we agree on? Is it the constitution? What is it? What is it that we all can agree on and all use all our efforts to fight against the NWO plans? I feel we need to be able to work with others of different faiths and walks in life that have the same basic belief we all do to be able to accomplish this.

How can we do that if we can not even get along in our on faith?

I am fearful that those that will not find the common ground with their brothers and sisters in the Gospel nor with the righteous non LDS will find themselves not in the real battle. They are in a battle of them against everyone else, which can not bare any productive fruit.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand," which paraphrases a statement by Jesus in the New Testament. How can we not divide? How can we find Unity as the church is desperately teaching us? Strength comes in Unity.

I feel as members of the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we should be setting the example of how to be unified and then take that to the rest of the good people of American and find a way to stand together. That is our only hope.

Please lets stand together United for Common Goal. One we can share,teach and guide that most will listen too. Let's find what that is and those willing to participate in this lets take it forth to the rightous of America!

I am not ready to give up! Who else is not ready to give up?

Who else wants to find Unity and fight together and not against each other?

Who is willing to put aside their pride and find Unity to fight the real battle?

What is it we all or most of us agree on?

Once we know what it is ...then lets get to work together!

[creator]

How do you propose we unite?

but the question is can we unite to do that. I feel too many people even on this site are fighting amongst themselves on issues of what is the best way to fight the NWO. Maybe there is not best way, maybe there are many ways and all can help. Lucifer wants us to focus on OUR way, to keep infighting going. The only Best way is a to be United.

I agree, there is not a "best way" or only one correct way to stand up for freedom.

Some may have their 'pet' issues that they believe are most important, that's fine... as long as you accept that while it is YOUR most important issue it doesn't have to be that way for others.

Some people ask, "what can I do"... "what can we do about all of this?" The best response I've heard is "PRAY"... pray, and ask Heavenly Father what your role is in all of this, ask Him what He would have you do. We all have different strengths, knowledge, experience and talents... Rather than bickering amongst ourselves we should each do what we feel is our calling to do.

Bella, suppose the bickering amongst us ends, and we all realize that Heavenly Father has a different calling for each of us in the Freedom 'fight' just as in the Church there are a multitude of different callings. Now, HOW do we UNITE? or do we? What does that unity look like? Is an end to fighting amongst ourselves enough unity? or does Unity mean that there will be one organization everyone is 'united' under? OR is it Unity when we all go forward with the same purpose, yet in different ways, different callings and different organizations, etc?

What does "find unity" mean to you? (a question for everyone)

[Rosabella]

How do you propose we unite?

but the question is can we unite to do that. I feel too many people even on this site are fighting amongst themselves on issues of what is the best way to fight the NWO. Maybe there is not best way, maybe there are many ways and all can help. Lucifer wants us to focus on OUR way, to keep infighting going. The only Best way is a to be United.

I agree, there is not a "best way" or only one correct way to stand up for freedom.

Some may have their 'pet' issues that they believe are most important, that's fine... as long as you accept that while it is YOUR most important issue it doesn't have to be that way for others.

Some people ask, "what can I do"... "what can we do about all of this?" The best response I've heard is "PRAY"... pray, and ask Heavenly Father what your role is in all of this, ask Him what He would have you do. We all have different strengths, knowledge, experience and talents... Rather than bickering amongst ourselves we should each do what we feel is our calling to do.

Bella, suppose the bickering amongst us ends, and we all realize that Heavenly Father has a different calling for each of us in the Freedom 'fight' just as in the Church there are a multitude of different callings. Now, HOW do we UNITE? or do we? What does that unity look like? Is an end to fighting amongst ourselves enough unity? or does Unity mean that there will be one organization everyone is 'united' under? OR is it Unity when we all go forward with the same purpose, yet in different ways, different callings and different organizations, etc?

What does "find unity" mean to you? (a question for everyone)

I agree with all that you have said.

Actually the end of fighting could be enough. I have been pondering that lately. That is the biggest thing that is stopping any of us from doing what we should do, instead we try to make other do it. That is not the Lords way it just causes contention. I wish this forum focused on submitting data and sharing it not attacking ever word someone says….kind of take it or leave it mentality. But that is not how it is handled.

But if we were to get a group that could reach that understanding and respect we can have the Holy Ghost stronger and I think we can find a common ground even if it is simple one. Start a grass movement that say what will all agree on. Sign a petition, donate to the same cause, basically put our resources into one pot yet still have our own area's of expertise. We are all to play different roles but they must be done with respect to others roles too.

We can unite in different area's but make it organized, a group that focus is the constitution, group that focus is latest NWO news, occult warning group, likeminded person work on project together they could also be on more then one commitee you could say etc. Branches of a different part of the whole....but then all pull together on things that we all agree upon and help on those.

I truly believe as we are purified though this process of becoming a Zion people it will become clearer what we are to do as a person and a group.

I was just hoping if we put aside the differences here may be we can unite on some agreed upon area and make a difference.

For me I think of it like, I did running businesses. I set up teams. The teams focused on their area, but then would come to meetings with all departments. Where we shared data, and assisted each other for the common cause. Each having their own specialty but still part of the whole. We all worked for the same cause but in different areas.

I would like to start a website that was for all against the NWO with all faiths, and banning any attacks, just a one stop location for all kinds of data. No nasty commentary allowed there at all. Just information.

I just I wanted to see what people could come up with, Yes prayer is the key!

The infighting is far more damaging then good. I have been told by quite a few people they are thinking of quitting the site or have,do to the infighting. So it is not working. People are not winning over persons to their side they are offending them and they leave. Which is bad for the overall cause.

Maybe the key is to find those that work well with each other (play well with others) and work from that group into specialized departments. But no one that can not be respectful could participate. That would have to be the rule. In if you treat other with respect you are in out if you can’t. From there we can get some think tanks going. That is what the other side does, they have none confrontational think tanks that come up with great ideas, sadly not good ones for us. So we learn from the enemy that technique.


Why not create a orgainzation that has one primary goal and has departments specializing in their given talents. I learn so much from others that specialize on one topic for they can dig deep into it where I can not do that to everything I would like too. If we had people that worked well together I think we could really get some things done. It can still be an online community or inperson if some were close enough. But I feel like we need to unite in some way or we are just lost. It can be broken down my favorate topics, preparness, food storage, latest news, what the UN has done, what the EU is doing, what ever pet project people have can be used. Then all would still be under one umbrella. So we can like I said sign petitions, write politicans whatever fits the cause. But we need to be orgainized because the enemey is.

Just some thoughts on no sleep



Added after I got some sleep........
Please know this long not so clear post was written on no sleep at like 5:00 am or so, I apologies that it is not clear, and may have silly ideas....that is what happens if you are up all night, and you type in brainstorming ideas! Forgive me for some not so great ideas......

[Lone Star Patriot]

Those are some great questions. I'm not sure I really have an answer, but I would like to share my experiences with this forum. For me, it seems a great blessing to have found this site. I have felt that I have been able to unite with like minded individuals. Of course, I have seen the spirit of contention at times in various threads. Because we are all individuals, we are probably only rarely going to find people with exactly the same views as ourselves. The important thing is to resist the spirit of contention, pray for the companion of the Holy Spirit and share our feelings the same way as if we were at church.

I know I have been called to do a certain work. Although, I'm not sure I can say exactly what that is at this time. However, standing up for our Constitution is definitely part of it. The testimony of President Benson rings loudly in my ears and it seems as if I feel a bit like he felt about our Constitution. I also know that Heavenly Father is guiding and preparing me, even though I'm still not exactly sure what that purpose is at this time.

I think it is quite likely that most of us find ourselves in this situation. I think it is also wonderful to see other people's perspectives, my own is so limited that it helps me open my eyes, even though sometimes it is not easy. It also helps me to refine my view points, see where I may have some weaknesses and see how best to refine my thoughts so that I can convey them in a manner that is understandable and clear.

I would like to thank the people who have made this forum possible. I think that the best way to to advance the cause of liberty is to keep the Holy Spirit with us in our hearts. Avoid the spirit of contention and share our thoughts the way we'd share them if we were at church. We may not all see eye to eye, but I'm sure we can at least gain more common ground that way, and at least be able to understand one another more easily.

Thanks everyone.

[Rosabella]

I think that the best way to to advance the cause of liberty is to keep the Holy Spirit with us in our hearts. Avoid the spirit of contention and share our thoughts the way we'd share them if we were at church. We may not all see eye to eye, but I'm sure we can at least gain more common ground that way, and at least be able to understand one another more easily.

Thanks everyone.

I know you are a good guy from our conversations

I love what you said here that I quoted. That is a wonderful point! Thank you!

[tmac]

Is anyone here aware of the Constitutional convention of sorts that was held in Fillmore, UT (the former territorial capital) this weekend? I wasn't there, but I've been hearing about it. Apparently, there were about 200 people in attendence, from several states, as well as representation from Indian tribes. From what I understand, they were attempting to do just what is being described here -- they were trying to figure out a way to unite, figure out what they could agree upon, and move forward, together. Apparently the Joel Skousen group and others were in attendence. These are people who didn't say that they would only meet at a certain time if they didn't have to drive past the point of the mountain, etc., etc. These are people who got in their cars and traveled some distance out in the sticks, to Fillmore, and met for two days, looking for common ground, etc., and discussing how to move forward.

I was tied up with funerals, etc., and wasn't in a position to try to attend, but just wondered if anyone here knew anymore about it?

Although this is a great forum, it still only seems to represent a tip of the iceberg in terms of the total number of people and thoughts out there on these issues.

People put up interesting polls, whether it's about the the current economic crisis, or a meeting schedule, and 10-20 people respond.

The point is, although there's a lot of quality thought that's being communicated here, etc., the numbers are still so small that it can hardly be viewed as any kind of a good representative cross section.

[creator]

We can unite in different area's but make it organized, a group that focus is the constitution, group that focus is latest NWO news, occult warning group, likeminded person work on project together they could also be on more then one commitee you could say etc. Branches of a different part of the whole....but then all pull together on things that we all agree upon and help on those.

It would be great, but also very difficult, with so many different ideas and opinions. I've been hoping this same thing and have seen some attempts made but none successful, only the creation of just one more liberty-minded group springing forth to add to the hundreds that already exist.

The infighting is far more damaging then good. I have been told by quite a few people they are thinking of quitting the site or have,do to the infighting

It's not that hard to ignore and steer clear of any infighting going on, just don't participate in that particular discussion... I think the forum would improve if, rather than people quiting the forum because they see some contention, they could do their part to contribute to the unity and peace on the forum. If they feel that some members make unity impossible I hope they'll send me a message and explain their complaints.

Is anyone here aware of the Constitutional convention of sorts that was held in Fillmore...about 200 people in attendance....they were attempting to do just what is being described here...a way to unite... Joel Skousen group and others were in attendance.

Yes, I was there at the 'Utah Liberty Convention' all day Saturday. The attempt was to unite in the cause of Freedom, though I'm still not sure if that will be what comes as a result, I doubt it will. A great organization may be formed as a result, but it may just be one more of the hundreds that already exist; maybe not. The Convention will be reconvened on March 14th, same place. There were several plans presented and the result is that 4 committees were formed (Education, Correspondence, Constitution, Preparedness)... those committees will be finalizing their plans throughout the next coming weeks and then on March 14 those in attendance will vote to either accept or reject the plans. This may result in creating a new organization.

Here's my new thread regarding the Utah Convention of Liberty: http://ldsfreedomforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6185

[Zowieink]

Ok, so how many of you are actively participating in city government, or state government. I'm lucky to be sitting on the Planning and Zoning Board for a major US city. It is amazing, what can happen when like minded people work together for the common good.

On this particular board we have 5 good LDS members from all walks of like and 2 others that are just plain good people.

What are you doing????????? There are volunteer boards all over the place if you just look.

We are going to need leaders when things are being put back together, and not church leaders, but people that have experience in government. A theocracy won't happen until Christ returns, so until then, stop, think, and then do something and make a difference.

[buffalo_girl]

Maybe the key is to find those that work well with each other (play well with others) and work from that group into specialized departments. But no one that can not be respectful could participate. That would have to be the rule. In if you treat other with respect you are in out if you can’t. From there we can get some think tanks going. That is what the other side does, they have none confrontational think tanks that come up with great ideas, sadly not good ones for us. So we learn from the enemy that technique.

I'm sorry, are we talking about the Delphi Technique here?

http://www.vlrc.org/articles/110.html

You, Mr. or Mrs. Citizen, decide to take part in one of these meetings.

Generally, you will find that there is already someone designated to lead or “facilitate” the meeting. Supposedly, the job of the facilitator is to be a neutral, non-directing helper to see that the meeting flows smoothly.

Actually, he or she is there for exactly the opposite reason: to see that the conclusions reached during the meeting are in accord with a plan already decided upon by those who called the meeting.

The process used to “facilitate” the meeting is called the Delphi Technique. This Delphi Technique was developed by the RAND Corporation for the U.S. Department of Defense back in the 1950s. It was originally intended for use as a psychological weapon during the cold war.

However, it was soon recognized that the steps of Delphi could be very valuable in manipulating ANY meeting toward a predetermined end.

How does the process take place? The techniques are well developed and well defined.

First, the person who will be leading the meeting, the facilitator or Change Agent must be a likable person with whom those participating in the meeting can agree or sympathize.

It is, therefore, the job of the facilitator to find a way to cause a split in the audience, to establish one or a few of the people as “bad guys” while the facilitator is perceived as the “good guy.”

Facilitators are trained to recognize potential opponents and how to make such people appear aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc. Once this is done, the facilitator establishes himself or herself as the “friend” of the rest of the audience.

The stage is now set for the rest of the agenda to take place.

At this point, the audience is generally broken up into “discussion—or ‘breakout’—groups” of seven or eight people each. Each of these groups is to be led by a subordinate facilitator.

Within each group, discussion takes place of issues, already decided upon by the leadership of the meeting. Here, too, the facilitator manipulates the discussion in the desired direction, isolating and demeaning opposing viewpoints.

Generally, participants are asked to write down their ideas and disagreements with the papers to be turned in and “compiled” for general discussion after the general meeting is reconvened.

This is the weak link in the chain, which you are not supposed to recognize. Who compiles the various notes into the final agenda for discussion? Ahhhh! Well, it is those who are running the meeting.

How do you know that the ideas on your notes were included in the final result? You Don’t! You may realize that your idea was not included and come to the conclusion that you were probably in the minority. Recognize that every other citizen member of this meeting has written his or her likes or dislikes on a similar sheet of paper and they, too, have no idea whether their ideas were “compiled” into the final result! You don’t even know if anyone’s ideas are part of the final “conclusions” presented to the reassembled group as the “consensus” of public opinion.

Rarely does anyone challenge the process, since each concludes that he or she was in the minority and different from all the others.

So, now, those who organized the meeting in the first place are able to tell the participants and the rest of the community that the conclusions, reached at the meeting, are the result of public participation.

Actually, the desired conclusions had been established, in the back room, long before the meeting ever took place. There are variations in the technique to fit special situations but, in general, the procedure outlined above takes place.

The natural question to ask here is: If the outcome was preordained before the meeting took place, why have the meeting? Herein lies the genius of this Delphi Technique.

It is imperative that the general public believe that this program is theirs! They thought it up! They took part in its development! Their input was recognized!

If people believe that the program is theirs, they will support it.

Cynical me...

[Zowieink]

And so, we (good Church members) should be taking a leading part in what is going on with our cities and state. That way, we can make sure truth prevails. Otherwise, its like you quoted for the Delphi Technique. You can't stand idly by, especially now.

Several years ago, I was included in an interesting discussion with the Church concerning the time when (not if) the federal (and possibly) state governments would fall, due to war/civil unrest/etc. In that meeting, a scenario was told to us: In the future, civil unrest would explode in our cities. (At the time they didn't know exactly what would happen, but think of the race riots in Watts, for the anti-war movements in Chicago at the Democratic (?) convention, etc.) Think of it on a national scale, with commerce coming to a stop, because of the unrest. IN this scenario, we are read a letter in sacrament meeting (all members world wide) and to meet that evening for a satelite broadcast from the First Presidency. We are told that we are to leave our homes and businesses and that our Stake President has been given a place of refuge he is to lead the members to. We are to combine our food storage, livestock (if any), and come back to the stake center in 3 days. (Bishop's were then given the job of organizing their wards or branches, and getting a tally of food stuffs, trucks, trailers, medical equipment, etc.)

The stuff gets put of the trailers and members are told to meet at a particular place, where we will leave our cars and walk the rest of the way. Bring as little personal stuff as you can but enough to last for 3 to 5 months.

We then follow the direction and are taken to a place of safe refuge.

While we are gone, the nation/state/city goes to hell in a handbag. Disease, death, gangs, etc. do their worst, and about 4 months later, they have burned themselves out or died of starvation or disease.

We are then brought together (the direction is given via satelite from First Presidency) to come back into the town/city and restore order, take care of the dead, and generally reestablish civilization, electricity, water, sewer, clear the roads of debris.

There will be many members who do not go, and thus are consigned to starvation since gangs will have looted our homes for food and energy.

As things come back together, we are then instructed that we are go gather together into specific areas in the West. There is no federal goverment, and state governments are shaky.

Thus, as we reinstitute civilization based on the constitution, we need people who have experience in government, because alot of non-members will travel with us for refuge. We will be responsible for the setting up of government, based on the laws of the state and the constitution. It will be a mighty effort, especially since most of the east will have been destroyed. People will hear of the resumption of governement in the Rocky Mountains (Utah, Arizona, and maybe Las Vegas area) and want to come to us for safety. They will literally come with children on their backs and very little else.

We will have to be ready to establish medical help, housing, sanitation, etc. and most of all, government in an area turned wild with roving gangs. We will need the Qorum of 50 to establish the local military. Once things are somewhat under control, some will be asked to return to Jackson county and begin the construction of New Jeruselem under the direction of the First Presidency.

[creator]

Ok, so how many of you are actively participating in city government, or state government. I'm lucky to be sitting on the Planning and Zoning Board for a major US city. It is amazing, what can happen when like minded people work together for the common good....
And so, we (good Church members) should be taking a leading part in what is going on with our cities and state. That way, we can make sure truth prevails. Otherwise, its like you quoted for the Delphi Technique. You can't stand idly by, especially now.

Zowienink, That is awesome what you are doing. We could definitely use more liberty-minded individuals in government at all levels.

While I have not ruled out the possibility for myself in participating in a position in local government, that is not my personal calling at this time (though I am a county/state delegate, if that counts). I am currently doing what I have been inspired by the Lord to do, most of which involves education, a key component to preparing a person for a position in government and enabling them to make the right decisions.

We all have our own unique talents, abilities and experiences and we can all be inspired to participate in different ways. My recommendation is to pray and ask the Lord what he has in mind for you. Another recommendation is to re-read your patriarchal blessing - there may be something said in it that is related to what the Lord has in mind for you.

[Zowieink]

The coming days are going to be very difficult. By the way, you remember the Boyd K. Packer talk in this home ward that hit the internet with a storm. Something about a catastraphie (sp??) coming. In the official Church version that was taken out.

In doing research as to whether the quote was real or not, I found that he indeed did use that word and that it was coming. The official Church version was cleaned up so as not to cause panic amongst the members.

I think its going to incumbant on all of us to band together. By the way, the worse place to go during the upcoming emergency.........the mountains! Because everyone else will be trying to get to their cabins or places of refuge. There are only so many deer and animals. I was told that it would be particularly hard hit. (Many members have cabins up in the mountains about an hour and a half from here.)

PS (I sure wish this had a spell check feature!)

[Lone Star Patriot]

Gman,

I apologize for not stating my point clearer. I was only trying to state the importance of how we say things can matter, such as how we might state something if we were at church. It may have been better if I said if we would do well to speak as if we were standing in the presence of Jesus or our Heavenly Father.

What we state can be another matter altogether. You are absolutely correct that the purpose of this forum is to express personal opinion, unlike church where we go to learn the gospel as contained in the scriptures and revealed to our modern day prophets.

I still think that we would be able to communicate better and accomplish more if we share our thoughts, as if we were in a church setting. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

You see, here I am learning a great deal. Thank you for your comment, because it showed me how easy it is to be misunderstood. And I have to admit, I'm not sure if I'm making myself completely clear now. But I hope we're on the path to a mutual understanding.

Thanks

[buffalo_girl]

We all have our own unique talents, abilities and experiences and we can all be inspired to participate in different ways. My recommendation is to pray and ask the Lord what he has in mind for you. Another recommendation is to re-read your patriarchal blessing - there may be something said in it that is related to what the Lord has in mind for you.

Exactly!

From a recent Priesthood Blessing for healing I was told the Lord wants me to return to my work tutoring children in the community. This is basically volunteer work garnished with a certain level of grief dished out from those holding 'permanent' jobs. Considering my health problems, it hardly seems like a good thing to return to a hostile environment among those who consider me an 'outsider' and an 'upstart' because my husband and I had a Ron Paul bumper sticker, have no relatives in the county, in addition to having out-of-state college degrees.

Well, what does make me feel better is seeing children considered unteachable learn to read, discover their talents, look forward to coming to school, and actually hold their heads up and smile. These children are not your average conditioned consumers. Their so-called disadvantages and/or disabilities have set them apart from their peers. Perhaps the Lord wants a few unspoiled individuals not of the monocultural 'herd'.

Doctrine & Covenants 123

15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.
16 You know, brethren, that a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm in the time of a storm, by being kept workways with the wind and the waves.
17 Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed.

[Zowieink]

You are sooooooooooooo right. We each have something to give that will be useful to Heavenly Father in the coming mess. Think of how many children may be left homeless and need special teaching to help them heal. Think of the firefighters, police, teachers, doctors, etc. etc. it will take to bring things back into order. I get so upset when members of the Church say: Oh, its only a Primary calling, or I'm just he Sunday School secretary, or Nursery Leader, or whatever. We each can make a difference. I'm just saying that to many people stay our of government service, like boards, or volunteering, etc. because of the bad rap politicians have given the whole government thing. What, work for the Establishment?????

[cwass]

It seems to me that in reading this forum for the past several months that a majority of people here believe in one common or similar thing that can effectively be defeated through organized combined effort: organized evil/Gadiatons/Satanic Conspiracy/conspiring men.

Identifying, exposing and punishing these traitors or preaching the gospel to them (ambitious). It would be very difficult. It has also been pointed out in other threads, that when people tweak the beasts tail be prepared for all out war.

The conspiracy has many branches but it is necessary to chop the tree down at the trunk. Enough people have to be knowledgable about the lie and be aware of how to identify the players (that can be difficult as not many people like to be labeled conspiracy nuts). I think Robert Welch said something to the affect that "America has a cancer (conspiracy) attacking it and causing a premature death...the cancerous tumor must be removed before America can become great again." Of course after the tumor is removed we can be unified in our efforts to bring to pass much righteousness etc. Organized effort on the same issue in all areas of the country.

My 2 cents

[Rosabella]

I think Robert Welch said something to the affect that "America has a cancer (conspiracy) attacking it and causing a premature death...the cancerous tumor must be removed before America can become great again."

That is interesting because that is almost the exact sentence the occult uses when they talk about those that believe in a God and not the "god within". They are called a cancer that needs to be removed for the world to evolve......

[creator]

Ezra Taft Benson also referred to a "cancer" in his talk The Proper Role of Government:

"In reply to the argument that a little bit of socialism is good so long as it doesn’t go too far, it is tempting to say that, in like fashion, just a little bit of theft or a little bit of cancer is all right, too!" . . .

"How is it possible to cut out the various welfare-state features of our government which have already fastened themselves like cancer cells onto the body politic? Isn’t drastic surgery already necessary, and can it be performed without endangering the patient? In answer, it is obvious that drastic measures ARE called for. No half-way or compromise actions will suffice. Like all surgery, it will not be without discomfort and perhaps even some scar tissue for a long time to come. But it must be done if the patient is to be saved, and it can be done without undue risk."

[lundbaek]

"Ok, so how many of you are actively participating in city government, or state government." I ran for Congress, and participate in the JBS and AZ Constitution Party.

"And so, we (good Church members) should be taking a leading part in what is going on with our cities and state. That way, we can make sure truth prevails." No small trick when one has responsibility to support and raise kids, and church callings. The people in our ward and also in the stake I consider most able to lead out in civic and government affairs, and in awakening members to their responsibility to freedom and the Constitution are so tied up with church, family, and employment haven't time to even think about the things we are concerned about on this forum. Even though the US Constitution is, according to the Church publication "Principles of the Gospel" is a Gospel principle (See Pg 145.), it is not just on a back burner, but well off the stove to make room for other apparently more pressing concerns.

[creator]

I just had a thought regarding how we can unite... It came to mind that even when it comes to Christianity there is little unity among the countless churches and sects. So the logically answer would be to turn to the one true church if there is one, the one Christ established and put his seal of approval upon. I'm sure we all agree and have a testimony that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now applying that same thought to the Freedom Organizations. There are hundreds and as far as I know the Lord has not established his own Freedom Organization. Is He going to have one "true" freedom organization created? and how will we know which one that is? Or perhaps it already exists? I would argue that it is the LDS Church ("for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Micah 4:2)) though the situation is different, while there's not a specific program focused on Freedom, but the prophets have spoken plenty of times on this topic. After all, the Church is not just about religion (good and bad, sin, repentance, baptism) it's all encompassing over every facet of life. The gospel and plan of salvation is not a Sunday-only plan, it's to be applied in all that we do in life. Even my main freedom-education has come mostly from our very own Prophets and other inspired Latter-day Saints (W. Cleon Skousen, and others). I have come to the same knowledge and understanding simply by studying the words of the Prophets and other LDS' as others have learned by studying people such as Frederic Bastiat, Thomas Paine, Adam Smith, and many of the Founding Fathers.

So, maybe it all comes back to building and further establishing the Kingdom of the Lord and bringing people unto Christ. Ezra Taft Benson counseled us to use the Book of Mormon to combat the false teachings of socialism and other -isms.

Maybe we don't need to create a "unifying freedom organization" - maybe we just need to use our knowledge and love of freedom to bring others into the Lord's Kingdom, into Christ's Church. And also put an end to the infighting and bickering amongst ourselves.

I don't claim to have all the answers but that's something to consider.

[highfive]

OK, so this is what I believe/think. I am a trained mediator, and I have learned a few principles in the last couple of years that I wish I had known all my life. So I am just gonna state them - you decide.

The PROCESS is by which we come up with a solution is very important. Anything less that a free and respectful process will give us ideas that are incomplete/bad/poor judgement.

1. We need to establish ground rulesthat will make people to feel safe to state their ideas and what they believe.

2. no name calling or the online equivalent of that.

3. everyone gets to state their opinion without getting verbally attacked, made to feel foolish or stupid. We need to explore why people have that idea. Most reasonable people have reasons for believing why they do. And we only each have a small glimpse of THE TRUTH. What we see is a certain perspective, and everyone is entitled to their own.

4. we are free to disagree with the ideas strenuously, but we must separate the people from the ideas. This way we can get the best that is in the brains of all these brilliant people. Nothing cuts off communication like feeling unsafe. In marriage, in the church, at work, or on the boards.

5. everyone must agree not to ge their feelings hurt as we hash it out.

6. the first step is brainstorming, just getting the ideas out there without regard to how silly they sound. to prejudge them cuts off the creative process and limits ideas.

7. After so long a period, we start going over them and pick out a few of the most viable ones and refine them. We should then agree that we will do what counsellors in the church do. Get behind it and push. If we keep talking we might approximate something that everone could get behind.

8. people with organizational/legal/activist skills might then see what an organization would look like and then we might proceed forward.

9. Pray like crazy, maybe even ask church headquarters if they have input. Maybe they will give us something better like they did for Relief Society. Maybe they will tell us to be still and wait for a while. Maybe they will tell us to go forward.

10. At that point, nobody gets ragged on if they can't participate fully - because of health, families, etc.

Anyway, that's my perspective.

[lundbaek]

Theoretically,"...building and further establishing the Kingdom of the Lord and bringing people unto Christ." and study of the Book of Mormon should be instilling in more people an awareness of our "awful situation". But that awareness doesn't seem to exist among but a small % of the members. It troubles me that we have to keep truning back to Prophets and Apostles of yesteryear - 30, 40, 50 + years ago to make our case for freedom and the Constitution. Just bringing in the numbers does not seem to be working, at least from my vantage point. In the USA, most of the real champions of freedom and the Constitution are not LDS, while some prominent LDSs either haven't the intellect to understand the Constitution or lack the integrity to be guided by it.

[gruden]

Is the purpose to agree, or to agree and do something? What do you want us to do?

For example, when Moroni united men behind him for the cause of freedom, first thing he did was write a manifesto - a Title of Liberty - and hoist it up as a rallying point. He asked people to do something very specific: to fight the kingmen and lamanites and restore the political apparatus they had previously agreed to.

So if you want to agree to agree on freedom, you'll have no problem here, but that won't get very far. People need concrete ideas to rally around and a plan of action. Moroni gave you an example. He rent his garment (great meaning there already - these are Semitic people) and wrote on it exactly what his cause was. The visual cue drew people in and rallied him. Having a charismatic person to lead the way also helps.

Just so we don't get totally blinded by the great figure of Moroni, remember Pahoran was involved and supplied the more technical aspects and the logistics of the operation. Pahoran was the operations man, Moroni was the motivator and figurehead. They were united in purpose, so that made their plan and operation seamless, and together with the people they were an unstoppable force.

[highfive]

I agree that many that are not LDS are doing a better job,and that we are going back to prophets of yesteryear. Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that the present ones are being watched so closely? And do you have a suggestion as to what to do?

[highfive]

Gruden,

I was under the impression that we wanted to do something.

So does anyone have an "in" with a GA? Could you ask them what, if anything we should/shouldn't do? It would be a shame to go charging out when someone has a really inspired idea. Maybe a little guidance would help to get started.

What is it we want to accomplish? do we want to start an organization? A petition? I would think we n eed to start with that. Maybe someone has a vision of what it should look like.