Getting boatloads of B. of M. translation historical info., all showing faking was impossible.

[kirtland r.m.]

“Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. (Morm. 6; Ether 15.) Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine “CUMORAH,” 1966, p. 175)

“We shall now introduce much circumstantial evidence, from American antiquities, and from the traditions of the natives, etc. First, says Mr. Boudinot: “It is said among their principal or beloved men, that they have it handed down from their ancestors, that the book which the white people have, was once theirs: that while they had it they prospered exceedingly, etc. They also say, that their fathers were possessed of an extraordinary Divine Spirit, by which they foretold future events, and controlled the common course of nature; and this they transmitted to their offspring, on condition of their obeying the sacred laws; that they did, by these means, bring down showers of blessings upon their beloved people; but that this power, for a long time past, had entirely ceased.” Colonel James Smith, in his journal, while a prisoner among the natives, says: “They have a tradition, that in the beginning of this continent, the angels or heavenly inhabitants, as they call them, frequently visited the people, and talked with their forefathers, and gave directions how to pray. Mr. Boudinot, in his able work, remarks concerning their language: “Their language, in its roots, idiom, and particular construction, appears to have the whole genius of the Hebrew; and what is very remarkable, and well worthy of serious attention, has most of the peculiarities of that language.” There is a tradition related by an aged Indian, of the Stockbridge tribe, that their fathers were once in possession of a “Sacred Book,” which was handed down from generation to generation; and at last hid in the earth, since which time they had been under the feet of their enemies. But these oracles were to be restored to them again; and then they would triumph over their enemies, and regain their rights and privileges.” Quoted from A Voice of Warning An introduction to the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Chapter IV by Parley P. Pratt

“In 1873, apostles Brigham Young Jr. and George Q. Cannon visited the New York Hill Cumorah and wrote up an account of the same which was published. “Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country[side] since the days when Mormon and [his son] Moroni had trod the spot where we stood. Still we could readily understand, even now, how admirable a position this would be [from the hilltop] for a general to occupy in watching and directing the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land of many waters, rivers and fountains [just] as Mormon said it was in his day. Brigham Young, Jr. and George Q. Cannon The Latter-Day Saints’ Millennial Star,(35 (33): 513-16), Tuesday, August 19th, 1873

“Consider how very fortunate we are to be living in this land of America. Many great events have transpired in this land of destiny. This was the place where Adam dwelt; this was the place where the Garden of Eden was; it was here that Adam met with a body of high priests at Adam-Ondi-Ahman shortly before his death and gave them his final blessing, and the place to which he will return to meet with the leaders of his people (D&C 107:53-57). This was the place of three former civilizations: that of Adam, that of the Jaredites, and that of the Nephites.” The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson pp. 587-588

. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica… Ancient Temples: What Do They Signify? By Hugh Nibley September 1972

Even more battle evidence coming up.

[kirtland r.m.]

Probably is also going to be the place where the final extinction of the American Gentile race also happens. (at least the wicked of the gentiles)
Hill Cumorah probably has not seen its last battle yet. Just speculating....

Well well, simpleton, look what I just found. [Heber C. Kimball] “prophesied that when the final last struggle came to this nation it would be at the Hill Cumorah where both of the former Nations [Jaredite and Nephite] were destroyed” (abt. Heber C. Kimball) Wilford Woodruff’s Journal 6:305, December 17, 1866

J. Golden Kimball is quoted as saying the following: “Heber C. Kimball said it was revealed to him that the last great destruction of the wicked would be on the lakes near the Hill Cumorah.” J. Golden Kimball (abt. Heber C. Kimball) N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, SLC: Bookcraft, 1941, p. 52.

I think the statements above reflect a portion of what will happen during that coming time period. It seems very focused though on the Cumorah area.

[kirtland r.m.]

“…Truly rock-ribbed faith and uncompromised conviction comes with its most complete power when it engages our head as well as our heart… Truth borne by the Holy Spirit comes with, in effect, two manifestations, two witnesses if you will—the force of fact as well as the force of feeling… I believe God intends us to find and use the evidence He has given—reasons, if you will—which affirm the truthfulness of His work… Evidence is still evidence even if it is not immediately observable… “My testimony to you tonight is that the gospel is infallibly true and that a variety of infallible proofs supporting that assertion will continue to come until Jesus descends as the ultimate infallible truth of all. Our testimonies aren’t dependent on evidence—we still need that spiritual confirmation in the heart of which we have spoken—but not to seek for and not to acknowledge intellectual, documentable support for our belief when it is available is to needlessly limit an otherwise incomparably strong theological position and deny us a unique, persuasive vocabulary in the latter-day arena of religious investigation and sectarian debate. Thus armed with so much evidence of the kind we have celebrated here tonight, we ought to be more assertive than we sometimes are in defending our testimony of truth… Farrer [English cleric Austin Farrer] said: “Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.”… May our Father in Heaven bless us and an ever-larger cadre of young scholars around the Church to do more and more to discover and delineate and declare the reasons for the hope that is in us, that like those converted Lamanites, we may with bold conviction hold up to a world that desperately needs it “the greatness of the evidences which [we have] received,” especially of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” The Greatness of the Evidence By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland August 16, 2017

[kirtland r.m.]

The following is from bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com

Hill Cumorah Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Hill Cumorah

At the final battles at the Hill Cumorah, nearly a quarter of a million Nephites were slaughtered. An untold number of Lamanites were also killed. Indian legend supports this great and terrible battle that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people.

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

In reference to Buffalo, New York , I re post one paragraph which givers evidence that this area had a large prelude battle to Cumorah. “At one time a fierce battle was fought near where Buffalo, N.Y., now stands, wherein two million were lying strewn upon the earth, slain in battle and no one to bury them, till the stench drove them southward to the Hill Ramah, which was called Cumorah by the Nephite race.” Reminiscences of Joseph the Prophet, by Edward Stevenson 1893

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites. In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163) New York State: “Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849) New York State: “Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)

Now, leaving bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com, let's "sally forth" to some additional sources. Let's use the terms that our early church leaders quoted earlier on this thread have used, near and close to(surrounding) Cumorah for battle history. Remember, some of the information I put up was literally at the foot of Cumorah.

“In excavating the canal through the bank bordering the flats, perhaps thirty rods south of the fort, another burial-place was disclosed, evidently more ancient, for the bones crumbled to pieces almost immediately upon exposure to the air, and the deposits were far more numerous than in that near the river. The number of skeletons are represented to have been countless, and the dead had been buried in a sitting posture.” (Antiquities of the State of New York, E. G. Squier, M. A., 1851, page 144)

“One of these pits discovered some years ago, in the town of Cambria, Niagara County, was estimated to contain the bones of several thousand individuals.” (Ibid, page 99)

Squier uncovered evidence of savage warfare, which left “bone-heaps” and “bone-pits” throughout the Finger Lakes region of New York (Cumorahland).

“Besides the various earth-works [ ], there are a number of other interesting objects of antiquarian interest in this county. Among them may be mentioned the ‘bone-pits’ or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Ibid, page 29 – italics in the original)

“Near the town of Fulton, on the west side of Oswego River, is an eminence called ‘Bone Hill’ in which have been found great numbers of human bones promiscuously heaped together. They are much decayed. Intermixed with them were discovered a number of flint arrow-heads.” (Ibid, page 31 – italics in the original

In 1915 newlyweds Willard and Rebecca Bean were called by President Joseph F. Smith to leave their home in Richfield, Utah and move into the Joseph Smith home near Palmyra, New York.
“One of these pits discovered some years ago, in the town of Cambria, Niagara County, was estimated to contain the bones of several thousand individuals.” (Ibid, page 99)

Willard and Rebecca’s son Alvin (1918 – 2007) remembered plowing a field with his father and uncovering a skeleton. The person they uncovered stood approximately 8 feet tall and in the word’s of Alvin, “had a skull the size of a basketball”. Buried with that skeleton was a sword that was so large Willard, a professional athlete, could not hold it up with one hand.

The Bean children Alvin and his brothers Dawn and Kelvin used skulls as helmets while playing war. The skulls were so large they fit over the boys’ heads “like football helmets”.

Such human remains have been found all along Lakes Ontario and Erie. In 1883 newspaper publisher and reporter Harvey Rice wrote about an ancient burial mound near Conneaut, Ohio (about 200 miles from Palmyra, NY).

“Human bones of gigantic proportions were discovered in such a state of preservation as to be accurately described and measured. The cavities of the skulls were large enough in their dimensions to receive the entire head of a man of modern times, and could be put on one’s head with as much ease as a hat or cap. The jaw-bones were sufficiently large to admit of being placed so as to match or fit the outside of a modern man’s face. The other bones, so far as discovered, appeared to be of equal proportions with the skulls and jaw-bones, several of which have been preserved as relics in the cabinets of antiquarians, where they may still be seen.” (Harvey Rice, Pioneers of the Western Reserve, pp. 172-173)Joseph Knew - Harvey Rice

The book of Ether in the Book of Mormon describes the Jaredite warriors as “Large and mighty men.” (Ether 15:26) When Limhi’s scouts in the Book of Mosiah found the ruins of the Jaradites, they found “large breastplates” of brass and copper. (Mosiah 8:10)

Joseph Knew - Holland purchase - lightIn an 1850 book, Orsamus Turner describes the same type of skeletal remains found by the Bean family and Limhi’s scouts. Turner describes what was found in an ancient fort in Orleans County, NY. “Some skeletons, almost entire have been exhumed, many of giant size, not less than seven to eight feet in length.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. Pp. 36)

In the ruins of this fortress near Lake Ontario, Turner describes a “depository of the dead”.

“Nearly in the center of the area was a depository of the dead. It was a pit excavated to the depth of four or five feet, filled with human bones, over which were slabs of sand stone. Hundreds seem to have been thrown in promiscuously, of both sexes and all ages. Extreme old age was distinctly identified by toothless jaws, and the complete absorption of the aveola processes; and extreme infancy, by the small skulls and incomplete ossification. Numerous barbs or arrow points were found among the bones, and in the vicinity. One skull retained the arrow that, had pierced it, the aperture it had made on entering being distinctly visible. In the position of the skeletons, there was none of the signs of ordinary Indian burial; but evidences that the bodies were thrown in promiscuously, and at the same time. The conjecture might well be indulged that it had been the theater of a sanguinary battle, terminating in favor of the assailants, and a general massacre.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. Pp. 27)

Throughout Turner’s book he writes about the great number of skulls found which had been broken by clubs, stones or other weapons of war.

In 1925, while Willard Bean was living there, a farmer in Palmyra was digging a well and uncovered several large skeletons. The age of the skeletons was determined to be approximately 3,000 years old. This would fit in the time frame of the Jaradite Nation. Of this discovery the “Rochester Herald” reported:

“In this pit were found an axe of peculiar shape, wide bit and other implements that bore signs of ancient warfare. There are dozens of similar ruins near Rochester. [ ] Upon these steep heights invading armies may have pressed a desperate assault, while all along the brow of the hills behind the rude fortifications of the great forest, stood the defenders of camp and home.”https://www.josephknew.com/giants-in-the-land/

Now, just a little reminder, most of the better weapons and armor would have been picked over after the battles and carried off. Alma 62:15 And it came to pass that as they were marching towards the land, they took a large body of men of the Lamanites, and slew many of them, and took their provisions and their weapons of war.

Not so much with the "bushel baskets" of arrowheads described in this thread. There were just so many! Also, let's do a bit of reasoning. Most of these bodies after battles would not have been tossed into pits, but left where they fell. This is the exact reason why there was a layer of human bone material just off of the hill Cumorah as described several times higher up on this thread.

I am still not at the end of battle evidence surrounding and near Cumorah.

[kirtland r.m.]

Now, more about that layer of human bone material just off of the hill Cumorah and why it was so concentrated there.

In 1835, Oliver Cowdery wrote a number of letters he called The Rise of the Church. These appeared in the church publication, The Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate. They were also reprinted in the Times and Seasons. In letter VII he wrote about the hill and described the area around it. It was his belief that the great and final battle in Cumorahland took place west of the hill, between the Hill Cumorah and a smaller hill about a mile west. Cowdery, like Orson Pratt, believed that the hill was not important only to the Nephite prophets, but to the Jaredites as well.

“You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four,
 or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round. . . .

“At about one mile west rises another ridge 
of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.” (Oliver Cowdery,The Rise of the Church, letter VII)

Both of these men were close to the Prophet Joseph Smith. We can assume that much of the information they gained about Book of Mormon lands came from him. They were also both prophets themselves and would be entitled to their own personal insights.[url]https://www.josephknew.com/hill-of-anci ... -prophets/

The Genesee River is a tributary of Lake Ontario flowing northward through the Twin Tiers of Pennsylvania and New York in the United States.

“About three hundred acres of my land, when I first saw it, was open flats, lying on the Genesee River, which it is supposed was cleared by a race of inhabitants who preceded the first Indian settlements in this part of the country. The Indians are confident that many parts of this country were settled and for a number of years occupied by people of whom their fathers never had any tradition, as they never had seen them.(sounds like some possible information passed down but very possibly changed in many centuries time about origins) Whence those people originated, and whither they went, I have never heard one of our oldest and wisest Indians pretend to guess. When I first came to Genishau, the bank of Fall Brook had just slid off and exposed a large number of human bones, which the Indians said were buried there long before their fathers ever saw the place; and that they did not know what kind of people they were. It however was and is believed by our people, that they were not Indians.” A Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jemison Author: James E. Seaver 1823 Chapter IX

How long for a sword to decompose: “It mostly depends on where it’s been stored. Wood, leather and iron materials don’t do well with moisture. If left in the rain or in a moist humid place, after a few months The sword will be completely worthless. Is long as it’s kept in a dry relatively clean location away from scavengers, years. Most iron swords are found under the dirt or mud where they fell during battle, and are completely useless by the time they are found. The metal would survive intact the longest, and if the location is wet it’s best for to be either underground or underwater completely. Trust is a byproduct of oxidation, and water speeds up the process. Underwater the oxygen available is limited to whatever is suspended in water, so counterintuitively it’s better to be at the bottom of the lake then laying in a puddle.” Greg Pavelka, Biomedical Technician

I will have more info. on next post about Swords of Iron, Steel & Copper in North America.

Alma 48:8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.

1 And now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, * that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

2. And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.

3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high. (Alma 50:1-3) * 72 B.C.

In a lecture before the New York Historical Society in 1831, Governor DeWitt Clinton said: “I have seen several of these works in the western part of this state. There is a large one in the town of Onondaga, one in Pompey, and another in Manlius; one in Camillus, eight miles from Auburn: one in Scipio, six miles, another one mile, and one about half a mile from that village. Between the Seneca and Cayuga Lakes there are several—three within a few miles of each other. Near the village of Canandaigua there are three. In a word, they are scattered all over that county.”

Governor Clinton described: These forts were, generally speaking, erected on the most commanding ground. The walls or breastworks were earthen(Alma did describe some stone walls, they would certainly use what was available to them in each location). The ditches were on the exterior of works. [ ] The trenches were in some cases deep and wide, and in others shallow and narrow; and the breastworks varied in altitude from three to eight feet. They sometimes had one, and sometimes two entrances, as was to be inferred from there being no ditch at those places. When the works were protected by a deep ravine or a large stream of water no ditch was to be seen. The areas of these forts varied from two to six acres; and the form was generally an irregular elipsis; and in some of them fragments of earthenware and pulverized substances, supposed to have been originally human bones, were to be found. [ ]

“These numerous works could never have been supplied with provisions without the aid of agriculture. Nor could they have been constructed without the use of iron or copper, and without perseverance, labour, and design which demonstrate considerable progress in the arts of civilized life.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. 1850, pages 20-21)

Israelite heritage, I will post more about this later

“Let our people know that the red men spread over this continent are the descendants of what was called the lost tribes, who bear, at this day, the proofs in their religion, language and ceremonies, of their early origin. So far, all is conjecture; but these discoveries will in time ripen into fixed and positive evidence.” (The New York Star, July 11, 1840)

“We are surrounded by evidences that a race preceded them [the Europeans], farther advanced in civilization and the arts, and far more numerous. Here and there upon the brows of our hills, at the head of our ravines, are their fortifications; their locations selected with skill, adapted to refuge, subsistence and defense.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. 1850, page 18)

“Although not peculiar to this region, there is perhaps no portion of the United States where ancient relics are more numerous. Commencing principally near the Oswego River, they extend westwardly over all the western counties of our State.” (Ibid, page 19)

“We are prone to speak of ourselves as the inhabitants of a new world; and yet we are confronted with such evidences of antiquity! We clear away the forests and speak familiarly of subduing a ‘virgin soil’;—and yet the plough up-turns the skulls of those whose history is lost ! We say that Columbus discovered a new world. Why not that he helped to make two old ones acquainted with each other.” (Ibid, pages 18 and 19)

A few parting thoughts on this post.

” You shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them;… and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites. D&C 28:8-9

“I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.” … and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” Joseph Smith Papers; History, 1838–1856, volume C-1 Addenda page 10-11

[kirtland r.m.]

I will now continue with more evidence, although this would be a great spot to list some of those great professors, inside and outside of the church who claim all this does not exist.LOL, no battle evedence ect, and while we are at it we could lump in the Anti Mormons saying this as well. Maybe I will do that further down.

“Commencing at the southern shores of the northern lakes [Erie & Ontario] and extending southward a hundred miles or more we find a greater number of MILITARY WORKS [fortifications] than in any other section of the United States.”

“It is my opinion that the terrible conflicts which produced such a GREAT NUMBER of FORTIFICATIONS as we find in Western New York,...It seems impossible that a people conditioned as they must have been would have spent SO MUCH LABOR in building such monuments and FORTIFICATIONS. Earthworks and Late Prehistory on the Lake Erie Plain,” ed. Lynne P. Sullivan, New York State Museum Bulletin, no. 489, The State Education Department, 1996, pp.15-16).

Many of these sites are now being destroyed by farming, new building, and vandalism of inexperienced relic hunters(or we would have even more). Look at the following statement, and that was made in 1920.

It is safe to say that the possibility of making a methodical examination is now reduced by two-thirds, through the vandalism of inexperienced relic hunters. Many mounds have been scraped down merely to level the ground and others have been scraped into by spade and horse scraper to find what ‘valuables’ they might contain. Few records have been kept and not all that have been made are reliable (Arthur C. Parker, “The Archeological History of New York,” New York State Museum Bulletin, nos 235, 236, July-August 1920, Albany, p. 87).

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. — (Book of Mormon, Mormon 6:4)

When Mormon leads his people to the Hill Cumorah, he makes a point of recording that it was located in the “land of many waters.” This would indicate that the number of lakes, rivers, streams and springs was unusual. The Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, which we at Joseph Knew believe to be the Hill Cumorah spoken of by Mormon, is located in the Finger Lakes region of Western New York.

The early native people considered this area sacred and blessed by God. Native legend says that after He created the earth, God blessed it by placing his hand on this area, and this left the Finger Lakes. Lakes Cayuga and Seneca are among the deepest lakes in the United States. This area is a central part of the Iroquois homeland. The lakes sit below Lake Ontario and are a central feature in what Willard Bean called Cumorahland.

This area is certainly “a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains.” In New York there are over 1,600 fresh lakes, ponds and reservoirs. There are over 70,000 miles of rivers. The Finger Lakes are a group of eleven long, finger-like lakes.

The Finger Lakes area is a good candidate for The Land of Many Waters for several reasons.

From a military standpoint the terrain is good defensively.

The great number of lakes, rivers and streams would have slowed down the enemies from the south pursuing the Nephites northward. The Book of Mormon emphasizes the fact that the land of many waters was “an exceeding great distance” from the land of Zarahemla and that there were more streams, rivers, lakes, and fountains in that area than were to be found in any lands where these early people had dwelt.https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is truly a land of many waters containing nearly 850 waterfalls:https://library.buffalo.edu/maps/img/WNYwaterfalls.jpg

The Hill Cumorah is the largest hill in the area and would have served as a good look-out post. (Mormon 6:11)

Archeological evidence suggests two great nations perished in the Finger Lakes area.

In 1925 a farmer in Palmyra was digging a well and uncovered several large skeletons. The age of the skeletons was determined to be approximately 3,000 years old. This would fit in the time frame of the Jaradite Nation.

The Rochester Herald reported that, “In this pit were found an axe of peculiar shape, wide bit and other implements that bore signs of ancient warfare. There are dozens of similar ruins near Rochester. Upon these steep heights invading armies may have pressed a desperate assault, while all along the brow of the hills behind the rude fortifications of the great forest, stood the defenders of camp and home.”

Implements of war such as arrowheads, spearheads, axes and clubs have been found throughout the area which indicate great battles took place there around 600 – 300 B.C. and another 300 – 500 AD.

Remains of a giant race of people have been found in the area.

In his 1888 book Pioneers of the Western Reserve, Harvey Rice recorded the recovery of human remains in the Finger Lakes area. He wrote:

“Human bones of gigantic proportions were discovered in such a state of preservation as to be accurately described and measured. The cavities of the skulls were large enough in their dimensions to receive the entire head of a man of modern times, and could be put on one’s head with as much ease as a hat or cap. The jaw-bones were sufficiently large to admit of being placed so as to match or fit the outside of a modern man’s face.”https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is Unique(this is form bookofmormongeography.org.)

First and foremost it was populated with defensive forts, where forts should be, and how they should be, and lacking them where they should not be.

The great amount of copper implements and blocks of mica, that have been found, contradicts the theory of Mr. Squier that the tumuli located in Western New York are not the work of the Mound-Builders. I am satisfied, beyond a doubt, that the Indian races [Iroquois Nation] never mined for mica or copper, neither did they bury either of these articles with the remains of their distinguished dead (Frederick Larkin, M.D., Ancient Man in America Including Works in Western New York and Portions of Other States, 1880, p. 19).

The fact that Mr. Squier, after making some personal examinations of a few of the works in Western New York, has pronounced them the works of Indians [Iroquois Nation], has had great weight with modern investigators who have adopted that theory (Larkin, p. 62).

Notwithstanding the Iroquois were the most powerful and intellectual people north of the Montezumas, and that they displayed great energy, especially in war, and held much of the territory in eastern and central New York, I can learn of no mounds or military fortifications similar to those found in Western New York or that section lying between the southern shores of Lakes Erie and Ontario and the head waters of the Allegany River. No nation of Indians within the records of history has ever built structures that would stand the ravages of the time that has passed away since the foundations of many of the works located in Western New York have been laid (Larkin, p. 63).

It is admitted by all of the intelligent Iroquois with whom I have conversed, that the people who constructed the mounds were an unknown people, and that tradition interposes no beams of light to extricate them from the confusion which has been wrought by time (Larkin, p. 64).

The evidences of mound culture are more numerous in extreme western New York than east of the Genesee river (The Genesee River/Gorge, the “Grand Canyon of the East” was the East Sea). [TRUE] The culture seems to have entered the State along the shores of Lake Erie and up from the Allegheny river. Chautauqua, Erie and Cattaraugus counties thus contain a larger number of mounds than do other portions of the State, though certain other sections, as the Genesee valley, have yielded relics in abundance (Arthur Caswell Parker, Archeological History of New York, vol. 1-2, 1922, p. 9).

In 27 counties some form of mound has been reported and a summary of these follows. They are most frequent west of the center of the State (William M. Beauchamp, “Perch lake mounds, with notes on other New York mounds, and some accounts of Indian trails,” New York State Museum Bulletin, 87, Archeology 10, 1905, p. 25).

From the appearance of the mounds and their location and mode of construction found in Western New York, I am led to believe that at the time those cruel and devastating wars were waged the assaulting party came from the south [TRUE] and it is not improbable that there might have been a northern and a southern confederacy, [TRUE] and that policies might have been in some way connected with it (Larkin, p. 75).

Second, it has the correct width, where the width is given.

Third, it is the correct length, where the length is given.

Fourth, it has water where water should be (or evidence of how it was anciently) and how it should be with rivers, waters and seas.

Fifth, it has a Narrow Neck where the Narrow Neck should be.

Sixth, the terrain is as it should be, where it should be, with plains, mountains, valleys, hills and harbors.

Seventh, it has timber and the types of timber used for houses, temples and ships, where they should exist and in adjacent areas where they could find timber.

Eighth, it has cement where cement should be and lacking it where it should not be.

Ninth, it has unique features that make it choice above all other lands, like a water filtration system, gravity fed irrigation system, continuous lighting, rich soils with plenty of precious metals, minerals and multiple fuel sources.

Tenth, land prophecies were fulfilled there including the changes that occurred at the coming of Jesus, the land becoming inhabited by multitudes of white Gentiles, the ownership of the land switching to the Gentiles, the Gentiles founding a new government with the Indians, that new government becoming a New Jerusalem, a land of liberty, without a king; becoming greater than all nations of the earth, a blessing to all nations of the earth, and a supporter of the restoration of the House of Israel, the establishment of the State of Israel.

Eleventh, a land that was filled with the Spirit of God, visits by Jesus, a state of doctrinal confusion and the place of the deposit and retrieval of the Nephite record.

Twelveth, the land where the mother countries of the Gentiles came to make war, by land and sea, against the Gentiles.

Thirteenth, the place where the power of God came down with miracles in support of the Gentiles.

I am persuaded that enough has been said to demonstrate the existence of a vast population, settled in towns, defended by forts, cultivating agriculture, and more advanced in civilization than the nations which have inhabited the same countries since the European discovery (Governor De Witt Clinton, Memoir on the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New York, 1820, p. 14).

Swords of Iron, Steel & Copper in North America this information comes from

“…they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper.” (Ether 10:23)

If you are looking for the ores mentioned in the Book of Mormon, they do exist, and they have been found in North America. Many iron and copper swords HAVE been discovered. When most scientists or archaeologists find an unexplained item in their research, they very often label it a fake, or too good to be true. Since very few experts are looking in North America for iron and steel, it is ignored when they do find it. We will list many pictures and articles about iron and copper swords found in North America in this article.

[kirtland r.m.]

Father Edmund Bosley Mormon Pioneer

25 June 1776–15 Dec. 1846. He was a Miller. Born at Northumberland Co., Pennsylvania. Lived at Livonia, Livingston Co., New York, 1792–1834. Stockholder in Kirtland Safety Society. Served as second counselor in Kirtland elders quorum, 1837. Ordained a high priest, 1844, at Nauvoo, Hancock Co., Illinois.

“From the time Father Bosley* located near Avon [Livingston County, NY], he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. “The hill Cumorah [the Jaredite hill Ramah] is a high hill for that country and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States. “Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A. D., 385.” – Life of Heber C. Kimball, by Orson F. Whitney, Salt Lake City, UT: Stevens & Wallis, Inc. [1888], 25.

“It seems to be a well-established fact that the bodies of nearly all those buried in mounds were partially, if not entirely, consumed by fire, before the mounds were built. This is made to appear by quantities of charcoal being found at the centre and base of the mounds—stones burned and blackened— and marks of fire on the metallic substances buried with them. It is a matter of much regret that on not one of the articles yet found have been discovered any letters, characters, or hieroglyphics, which would point to what nation or age these people belonged. We have been told by an eyewitness that a few years ago, near Blacksburgh, in Virginia, eighty miles from Marietta, there was found about half of a steel bow, which, when entire, would measure five or six feet; the other part was corroded or broken. The father of the man who found it was a blacksmith, and worked up this curious article, we suppose, with as little remorse as he would an old gun-barrel. Mounds are very frequent in that neighborhood, and many curious articles of antiquity have been found there. It is related from good authority that an ornament composed of very pure gold, something similar to those found in Marietta, was discovered a few years since in Ross county, Ohio, near Chillicothe, lying in the palm of a skeleton’s hand, in a small mound. This curiosity, it is stated, is in the museum at Philadelphia.” North America’s Indian Traditions, Archaeology & Book of Mormon II Ohio’s Ancient City edited by Wayne May Reprinted from The Wonders of the World, Boston, Massachusetts: The John Adams Lee Publishing Company, circa 1850.


“Lying immediately over, or on the forehead of the body, were found three large circular bosses, or ornaments for a sword-belt or a buckler; they are composed of copper, overlaid with a thick plate of silver. But the fronts of them are slightly convex, with a depression, like a cup, in the center, and they measure two and a quarter inches across the face of each.

On the reverse side, opposite one is a copper rivet or nail, around which are two separate plates, by which they were fastened to the leather. Two small pieces of the leather were found lying between the plates of one of the bosses; they resemble the skin of an old mummy and seem to have been preserved by the salts of the copper.

The plates of copper are nearly reduced to an oxide, or rust. The silver looks quite black, but is not much corroded, and on rubbing, it becomes quite brilliant. Two of these are yet entire; the third one is so much wasted, that it dropped in pieces on removing it from the earth. Around the rivet of one of them is a small quantity of flax or hemp, in a tolerable state of preservation.

Near the side of the body was found a plate of silver, which appears to have been the upper part of a sword-scabbard. It is six inches in length and two inches in breadth and weighs one ounce; it has no ornaments or figures, but has three longitudinal ridges, which probably correspond with edges or ridges of the sword. It seems to have been fastened to the scabbard by three or four rivets, the holes of which yet remain in the silver.

Two or three broken pieces of a copper tube were also found, filled with iron rust. These pieces, from their appearance, composed the lower end of the scabbard, near the point of the sword. No sign of the sword itself was discovered, except the appearance of rust above mentioned.

Near the feet was found a piece of copper, weighing three ounces. From its shape it appears to have been used as a plumb, or for an ornament as near one of the ends is a circular crease, or groove, for tying a thread; it is round, two and a half inches in length, one inch in diameter at the centre and half an inch at each end. It is composed of small pieces of native copper pounded together, and in the cracks between the pieces are stuck several pieces of silver, one nearly the size of a four-penny piece, or half a dime.

This copper ornament was covered with a coat of green rust and is considerably corroded. A piece of red ochre, or paint, and a piece of iron ore, which has the appearance of having been partially vitrified or melted, were also found. The ore is about the specific gravity of pure iron.” Writings of Caleb Atwater 1833.

Steel Swords during Nephite times

You will find it very interesting that the advocates of the Mesoamerican theory have been stumped by the talk about “steel swords” in the Book of Mormon. Most of the scholars claim there have been no steel swords found in Mesoamerica but they speak of something called a a Macana or Macuahuitl, a long, flat piece of hardwood embedded with sharp pieces of obsidian. As you see in the picture to the right(click on link below), if there were steel swords in Jerusalem, it makes sense that similar swords would be found where Lehi landed. We find those in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/swords ... h-america/


It seems there is proof of the ability of Joseph Smith to translate an ancient record which mentioned steel among the Jews in 600 B.C., long before such was ever thought to be true. According to Robert Maddin, James D. Muhly, and Tamara S. Wheeler, “How the Iron Age Began,” Scientific American (237/4 [October 1977]:127), who state: “It is increasingly apparent that the practice of hardening iron through deliberate carburization, quenching and tempering was well known to the ancient world from which Nephi came. ‘It seems evident,’ notes one recent authority, ‘that by the beginning of the tenth century B.C. blacksmiths were intentionally steeling iron.’” (Reported from NephiCode.com)

I have much more coming on this.

[kirtland r.m.]

I hope you guys and gals are digging this thread(pun intended). Now after that steel information above, take a look at this from Jack West 1954, Trial of the Stick of Joseph, Part 23.

The sixth claim of the Book of Mormon was that these early Americans had excellent tools. This was another thing that amazed the public, and still is amazing even to some scientists. The Book of Mormon tells us that those people not only made tools, but they were also able to harden copper. In the year 1830 a great man in the field we now call metallurgy may have said, “There are many things in that book that I can believe, but now you are talking in my specialized field, and any fool knows that you cannot harden copper.” Well, in the year 1830, we could not do it, and we cannot do it yet—not pure copper... a fascinating sidelight is that when they check with the “carbon 14 test,” they have never found one of those copper tools going back prior to the age of 600 years before Christ. And it was only the Nephite-Lamanite people who claimed to be able to harden copper, and they came 600 years before Christ.

“And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.” (2 Nephi 5:15)

Copper Arrowheads-In the Heartland of the Book of Mormon

The early manufacture of advanced copper tools sets North America apart from most of the ancient world. Throughout most of the Old World, the rise of copper metallurgy almost universally occurs in the same pattern.

One of the claims of the Book of Mormon is that these ancient Israelite people worked with copper. They could actually harden it. Here is your proof and verification. The hardness of the metal alloy is twice as much as that of natural copper' This evidence comes directly from the eastern United States. Here is a link to some of that evidence as well as copper ore information, and additional info...https://bookofmormonevidence.org/copper ... of-mormon/

[kirtland r.m.]

More statements by church leaders...

“The Hill Cumorah is situated in western New York. . . . It is distinguished as the great battlefield on which, and near which, two powerful nations were concentrated with all their forces, men, women and children, and fought till hundreds of thousands on both sides were hewn down, and left to molder upon the ground. . . . The Hill Cumorah is remarkable also as being the hill on which and around which, a still more ancient nation perished, called Jaredites. . . . Millions fought millions, until the Hill Ramah, and the land round about, was soaked with blood.” Orson Pratt Millennial Star 28 (16 June 1866)

“The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was this same Moroni who, as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation.” James Talmage Articles of Faith

“For many decades the Nephites retreated before their aggressive foes, making their way north-eastward through what is now the United States. About 400 A.D. the last great battle was fought near the hill Cumorah; and the Nephite nation became extinct. The degenerate remnant of Lehi’s posterity, the Lamanites or American Indians, have continued until this day. Moroni, the last of the Nephite prophets, hid away the record of his people in the hill Cumorah, whence it has been brought forth by divine direction in the current dispensation. That record is now before the world translated through the gift and power of God, and published to the edification of all nations, as the BOOK OF MORMON.” Jesus the Christ, p. 743

“The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon… definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them.” President Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency, April 1929 General Conference

[kirtland r.m.]

“My flats were cleared before I saw them; and it was the opinion of the oldest Indians that were at Genishau, at the time that I first went there, that all the flats on the Genesee river were improved before any of the Indian tribes ever saw them. I well remember that soon after I went to Little Beard’s Town, the banks of Fall-Brook were washed off, which left a large number of human bones uncovered. The Indians then said that those were not the bones of Indians, because they had never heard of any of their dead being buried there; but that they were the bones of a race of men who a great many moons before, cleared that land and lived on the flats” (Nephites, Jaredites). A Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jemison Author: James E. Seaver 1823 Chapter VII page 61

New York State Museum JOHN M. CLARKE, Director

List of Sites Page 654 Ontario County, NY (Time Period 100 BC to 1700 AD)

1- Village and palisaded hilltop stronghold on Boughton hill 1 1/ 4 miles south of the village of Victor. This famous site is on the farms of M. E. McMahon, W. B. Moore and W. J. Greene. It occupies the top of Boughton hill and lies along the 800 feet contour line, which is 250 feet above the village of Victor. The hill points northward and is bounded on the eastern, western and northern sides by precipitous slopes that drop to the valleys of two brooks, both of which flow into the Mud creek. The westmost brook is known as White brook and takes its beginning in a spring on the side of a hill. This site is that of the Gandagora which was destroyed by DeNonville in 1687. It was visited by Greenhalgh in 1677 who said it resembled Onondaga. Before its destruction the Jesuits had established in this village, a mission which they called St Jacques, so that there are fairly adequate contemporaneous accounts of the village and its occupants. The site was excavated by Frederick Houghton for the Buffalo Society of Natural Sciences. His excavations are described in volume 10, number 2, of the bulletin of the society.

New York State Museum JOHN M. CLARKE, Director

List of Sites Page 654 Ontario County, NY (Time Period 100 BC to 1700 AD)

1- Village and palisaded hilltop stronghold on Boughton hill 1 1/ 4 miles south of the village of Victor. This famous site is on the farms of M. E. McMahon, W. B. Moore and W. J. Greene. It occupies the top of Boughton hill and lies along the 800 feet contour line, which is 250 feet above the village of Victor. The hill points northward and is bounded on the eastern, western and northern sides by precipitous slopes that drop to the valleys of two brooks, both of which flow into the Mud creek. The westmost brook is known as White brook and takes its beginning in a spring on the side of a hill. This site is that of the Gandagora which was destroyed by DeNonville in 1687. It was visited by Greenhalgh in 1677 who said it resembled Onondaga. Before its destruction the Jesuits had established in this village, a mission which they called St Jacques, so that there are fairly adequate contemporaneous accounts of the village and its occupants. The site was excavated by Frederick Houghton for the Buffalo Society of Natural Sciences. His excavations are described in volume 10, number 2, of the bulletin of the society

Sixty six additional listings here.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/cumora ... ge-battle/

This is the end of information about Ontario County, in THE ARCHEOLOGICAL HISTORY OF NEW YORK BY ARTHUR C. PARKER. There are hundreds of other pages of additional counties in New York as well. It’s amazing information.
RESOURCE #2

THE ARCHAEOLOGY OF NEW YORK STATE BY WILLIAM A. RITCHIE

Thanks to bookofmormonevidence.org on this post, if you will take a look at map, these are amazingly close to Cumorah.

[kirtland r.m.]

“Erie County has yielded a vast store of ancient monuments, including many GIANT SKELETONS, spear points, war hatchets, and other weapons that seem TOO LARGE for an average sized man to wield. Bones of ‘GIANT SIZE’ have been uncovered” (C. H. Johnson, History of Erie County, p. 124).

Rochester (N.Y). A natural sand mound revealed a surprise in 1796. “On the shore of Lake Ontario on a high bluff near Irondequoit Bay… the bank caved off and untombed a great quantity of human bones of a large size,” observed Rochester resident Oliver Culver. A number of sources preserve his account, including Turner’s History of the Pioneer Settlement of the Phelps and Gorham Purchase (1851). “As late as 1830 human bones of an unusually large size were occasionally seen projecting from the face of the bluff or lying on the beach,” reported G. H. Harris in Aboriginal Occupation of the Lower Genesee County (1884). “The arm and leg bones, upon comparison, were much larger than those of our own race,” wrote Arthur Caswell Parker in The Archaeological History of New York (1922). By that I think the great Seneca scholar meant, “the human race.” I doubt that a thorough excavation was ever made here. If the local landscaping hasn’t been too dramatic, some bones could still be left. FYI, I hear this spot was on the west side of Irondequoit Bay.

Conewango. The Conewango Creek is a slow-moving, 70-mile long tributary of the Allegany River that cuts through Little Valley and meanders back and forth over the border between Chautauqua and Cattaraugus counties. Its course does in places cut a nifty valley, and Doc Cheney noted the prevalence of earthwork ring-forts at high places along it. In Illustrations of the Ancient Monuments in Western New York (1859). Mason Winfield, The Search for the Lost Giants (in WNY) Part 2

I have shown some evidence of the Jaradites in the last few posts, Let's take a look now at more Nephites and Lamanites information/evidence.

The Mic Macs.

By the 1980s, the spelling of the ethnonym Miꞌkmaq, which is preferred by the Miꞌkmaw people, was widely adopted by scholarly publications and the media. It replaced the previous spelling Micmac. Wiki

The Micmacs are remarkable for the fact that they are the only Canadian tribe which ever used hieroglyphs, or ideograms, as a means of acquiring religious and secular knowledge. These were invented in 1677 by Father Leclerq, who took the idea from the rude signs he one day some some children draw on birch bark with coal...https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10283b.htm

An interesting The mik maq Indians held sacred signs and tokens on their “garments” and skin. These tokens were a distinguishing feature for them. So much so the tokens were buried with them. They could show to their ancestors these tokens, the only way their ancestors could recognize them as being a part of their tribe or the cross bearers. This community of Mik Maq Indians held the cross as sacred. Its not a evangelical cross but a Greek style cross held sacred for centuries by many native American civilizations to include pre-Columbian tribes such as the Hopewell. For this being one of many reasons Father Chretian Le Clercq believed that these Indians once knew of the Christian gospel. These account date to 1680 in New Relations of Gaspesia pg34, 86.

Mi’kmaq Nephites and Christ visit. It is becoming clear that the Mi’kmaq may be remnants of the Nephite nation for several reasons.

They have four reformed Egyptian characters in their book of Prayers. They have the most examples of Hebrew culture. Comparatively they have high concentrations of Middle Eastern dna. Their geographical location north of the Hill Cumorah also matches well. They are traditional enemies of the Iroquois’ (Lamanite) nation. They have an account of Christ visit.

In 1680 Father Chretian Le Clercq a Roman Catholic missionary lived among the Micmac Indians for twelve years. Father Clercq was surprised by the many Hebrew customs that the Mi’kmaq had when he asked them if Christians missionaries had taught them these beliefs. The Mi’kmaq elders said that he was the first missionary to visit their tribe.

“Chrestien Le Clercq, O.M.R., (born 1641) was a Recollect Franciscan friar and missionary to the Mi’kmaq on the Gaspé peninsula of Canada in the mid-17th century. He was a chronicler of New France, who wrote two early histories, and translator of a Native American language of that region, adapting an apparently indigenous mnemonic glyph system into a writing system known as Míkmaq hieroglyphic writing.” Wikipedia

Their language, has Hebrew ties. They even use a certain phrase which used to be used in the later day Temples. It was part of their language . The word word phrase, some who study the gospel will recognize is "Pay Lay Ale" and was identified in the temple ceremony as words from the "pure Adamic language". This was not a coincidence. They also claim to have been visited by the Savior. They too were not far from Cumorah. Northern Maine and just above there, in Canada. More in the next few days.

[kirtland r.m.]

Micmacs have Hebrew customs.

Hebrew custom of one year betrothal and dowry
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 85 )

Belief of a great flood
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 84 )

Belief they descended from one man and one woman and genesis account
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 84 )

Their language compared to Hebrew by Silas T Rand
(Legends of the Mic Macs pg 35)
Mi’kmaq

Book of Mormon Examples

Belief they sailed to North America as did Lehi and his family (New Relations of Gaspesia pg 84 )

Belief they had letters and a written language
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 86 )
Christ’s Visit

The Mi’kmaq are visited by a man who performs miracles and people are healed.

In the Book of Mormon Christ visits the Nephites and performs miracles and healings (New Relations of Gaspesia pg 172 )

This man takes the time to teach the Mi’kmaq people. Christ spends several days if not weeks teaching the Nephites and Lamanites.
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 172 )

Before a visit by this man the Mi’kmaq’s were under extreme destitution and devastation. Before Christ visit in the Book of Mormon there were natural calamities that devastated the Nephites and Lamanites
(New Relations of Gaspesia pg 172 )

Before Christ visit there was three days of darkness. The Mi’kmaq elders during the devastation of their nation were under a deep sleep consistent with the Book of Mormon. (New Relations of Gaspesia pg 86 )

The Mi’kmaq believe they need to have signs and and tokens in the after life. Father Clercq also believed that they once had the gospel but was lost to due to the licentiousness of their ancestors.
“these people had received in times past a knowledge of the Gospel and of Christianity, which they have finally lost through the negligence and the licentiousness of their ancestors” (New Relations of Gaspesia pg 86 )

Michmash

In the Old Testament there is a city that still exist today known today as Mikhmas and known in the Old Testament as Michmash. In the Old Testament the pronunciation of Michmash is very similar to the name of the Micmac tribe. Based on their similar beliefs and their Book of Prayers characters, Micmac tribe most likely are direct descendants of the Nephites/Hopewell Indians and survived the Nephite genocide by escaping to the North Alma 22:33. Their geographical location above the hill Cumorah and other factors such as a nomadic lifestyle, being decimated by sickness, as well as wars with the Iroquois (Lamanites), offers more evidence to support this conclusion. Based on the Iroquois beliefs and traditions, the Iroquois are the best candidate to be primarily responsible for the extinction of the Nephites. Michmash in Hebrew means “something hidden”. During the Nephite genocide any surviving Nephites would have to join the Lamanites or hide.

Reformed Egyptian Four Surviving Characters

In 1680 Father Chretian Le Clercq a Roman Catholic missionary lived among the Micmac Indians for twelve years. After spending this time with the Micmac, he then sailed back to France and wrote a book about the customs and religion of the Micmac Indians.

He helped the Micmac Indians develop a written language composed of Hieroglyphs some of which are Egyptian hieroglyphs. In doing this he most likely used the characters that the Micmac Indians were already familiar with. When he first arrived he saw the Mic Mac Indians writing on birch bark. Four of the Egyptian hieroglyphs are same appearance and meaning as in the Egyptian written language.

If Clercq himself had developed the characters for their written language he most likely would have used the Latin alphabet. The question becomes why would he use Egyptian hieroglyphs but most importantly how did he know the meaning of the hieroglyphs that he used. Egyptian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until 1820 when the Rosetta stone was discovered and allowed for the understanding of the ancient Egyptian written language. The chances of four characters being a coincidence has to be mathematically impossible. The hieroglyphs have to be from the characters the Mi’kmaq Indians were writing on birch bark.

Nephi describes their written language as reformed Egyptian.

The majority of Micmac characters are probably reformed Egyptian if not all of them.

The Anthon Transcript is the piece of paper on which Joseph Smith transcribed characters from the golden plates so that Martin Harris could show Dr. Charles Anton. Anton was an Egyptologist who could confirm the validity of the golden plates translation. Per the history, Anton described the characters as Egyptian, Chaldean and Assyrian.
https://bookofmormonevidence.org/mikmaq ... al_reasons

Nice comparative alphabet(Hebrew and Micmac) charts through link above in addition to information I have posted, possible D.N.A. links, and remember my Pay Lay Ale quote higher up. Look at what the word Pay means in both Hebrew, and Micmac(it is the word for God, they have another separate word for the savior, which is Jehovah). Piles more of what I certainly would call great info. coming. Really, I would say I have enough for continued posting regularly on this for at least two to three more years. Men and women, boys and girls, the Book of Mormon, and therefore the other three standard works of the church are true.

[kirtland r.m.]

There is one place in North America which matches up with with the geology of the Book of Mormon description of the massive Battle of Zerahemla in 87 B.C. described in Alma chapter 2. Anyone what to take a guess about where that place is? It is quite mind blowing actually. Ever hear of a place called the Des Moines rapids?

This is a place which was heavily surveyed by Robert E. Lee in 1837(yes, the General). Robert E. Lee and his group took a survey intending to cut a channel through the rapids, but after three months of trying along with budget cuts, the project was canceled.

The Army Corps of Engineers did another survey of the same Des Moines rapids in 1866, just after the War Between the States. This time Lieutenant Colonel James H. Wilson was in charge of making this survey. Colonel Wilson's survey was even more extensive than Lee's with more information.

Robert E. Lee’s original survey matched up with the description in the Book of Mormon of the River Sidon that helped pin point an approximate location from over a 2,000 mile distance of the river down to a few acres. Lee’s survey marks the point on a chart that shows where the flow of the river's water at harvest time would have been sufficiently low so as to allow an ancient army to cross the large river.https://zarahemla.site/following-path-2

In order for the search of this crossing to be successful, there are certain elements that must be studied to understand where this spot exists. The first clue is the Robert E. Lee survey.

Traveling up and down the Mississippi River was pretty common by the early 1800’s but crossing it was a bit dangerous. There is a place along this river called the Des Moines Rapids that lies between Nauvoo, Illinois and Keokuk, Iowa. The Des Moines Rapids limited steamboat passage because of the “dangerous, sharp, rocky bottom” as noted by Swedish novelist, Fredrika Bremer, who in 1850, was taking a trip down the Mississippi from St. Paul. http://www.mississippivalleypublishing. ... ed622.html

Description of battle.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipKREaHHVzE

Now, you may remember this.
Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. D&C 125:3

The Lord, in March of 1841, revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that a city was to be built opposite the city of Nauvoo, Illinois across the Mississippi River near what is now Montrose, Iowa “Zarahemla” was to be its name. This was begun, until the saints were driven west.

Interesting enough, the spot directly west across the Mississippi from Nauvoo has had some investigating done on it, and it appears to have a possible old Temple site there with four ramps.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaFrTnW0uI

And https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKqfck3B9X0

More research is ongoing.

[kirtland r.m.]

If you haven't seen this, it is interesting.

John Wickliffe Rigdon, a son of Sidney Rigdon, left a memoir of his father. It was published as Karl Keller, ed., “‘I Never Knew a Time When I Did Not Know Joseph Smith’: A Son’s Record of the Life and Testimony of Sidney Rigdon,” in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 1/4 (1966): 15-42. Here is something from pages 41-42, where John tells about his return from Utah Territory...and about a conversation with his father:

Soon after I got home, I told him the state of affairs in Salt Lake and, as it was all a humbug, I wanted to know how the Book of Mormon came into existence, for he owed it to his family to tell all he knew about it and should not go down to his grave with any such grave secrets. He said, “My son, I will swear before God that what I have told you about the Book of Mormon is true. I did not write or have anything to do with its production, and if Joseph Smith ever got that [i.e., the Book of Mormon], other [than] from that which he always told me ([that is,] that an angel appeared and told him where to go to find the plates upon which the book was engraved in a hill near Palmyra), Smith guarded his secret well, for he never let me know by word or action that he got them differently, and I believe he did find them as he said, and that Joe Smith was a prophet, and this world will find it out some day.” I was surprised, [for he was] smarting under what he thought was the ingratitude of the Church for turning him down and not having been with them for over 25 years. I must believe he thought he was telling the truth. He was at this time in full possession of his faculties.

[kirtland r.m.]

I plan to post some nice information on Cumorah, the hill, the plates, stone box containing plates and artifacts, what Moroni would have had access to within a mile or two of Cumorah to make his "cement", lot's regarding these things, But found this and want to put it up today.

Personal Relative Pronoun Usage in the Book of Mormon:
An Important Authorship Diagnostic. Stanford Carmack
Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 49 (2021): 5-36

Abstract: This study compares personal relative pronoun usage in the earliest text of the Book of Mormon with 11 specimens of Joseph Smith’s early writings, 25 pseudo-archaic texts, the King James Bible, and more than 200,000 early modern (1473–1700) and late modern (1701–1800+) texts. The linguistic pattern of the Book of Mormon in this domain — a pattern difficult to consciously manipulate in a sustained manner — uniquely points to a less-common early modern pattern. Because there is no matching of the Book of Mormon’s pattern except with a small percentage of early modern texts, the indications are that Joseph Smith was neither the author nor the English-language translator of this pervasive element of the dictation language of the Book of Mormon. Cross-verification by means of large database comparisons and matching with one of the finest pseudo-archaic texts confirm these findings. Read more using this link.https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/journal/

[kirtland r.m.]

Cumorah, the stone box and cement.

In the late 1800's Edward Stevenson(First Council of the Seventy) interviewed and old resident of the Palmyra area. This old man gave some background on the stone box.

...Questioning him closely he stated that he had seen some good-sized flat stones that had rolled down and lay near the bottom of the hill. This had occurred after the contents of the box had been removed and these stones were doubtless the ones that formerly composed the box. I felt a strong desire to see these ancient relics and told him I would be much pleased to have him inform me where they were to be found. He stated that they had long since been taken away.
Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph the Prophet, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, 1893), 13, https://www.gutenberg.org/files/54337/5 ... 4337-h.htm.

This also is from David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses. Three times [David Whitmer] has been at the Hill Cumorah and seen the casket that contained the tablets and seerstone. [Page 250]Eventually the casket has been washed down to the foot of the hill, but it was to be seen when he last visited the historic place.
David Whitmer, interview with Chicago Times (August 1875), quoted in Ebbie L. V. Richardson, “David Whitmer: A Witness to the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon,” (master’s thesis, Brigham Young University, 1952), 158, https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/5072/. As reported in the same paper (p. 166), David Whitmer also alluded to seeing the stone box himself in another interview.

More to follow.

[Ontario]

I hope you will check back on this thread because I intend to put a lot of information up here. I have been posting on this subject for years. Anti Mormons including the 750 or so "Ministries" set up to derail any honest investigation of the Church will continue. A spiritual witness, as we have been told, is vital to stand firm in the often creepy times we live in, but more and more physical evidence is also coming, and it seems will continue to come forth over time.
"Since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon there has never been more profound evidence of its authenticity than today. Arguably among the two greatest linguistic discoveries relating to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon are two ancient stones bearing Hebrew inscriptions that can now finally take their rightful place in the history of the world! Many, if not hundreds of stones inscribed with ancient characters and symbols have been summarily dismissed as fakes and forgeries because it was against the official policy of the scientific community under the Smithsonian Institution, and because linguistic evidence cannot be supported by one or two random artifacts. Recent scientific verification of several sites and artifacts – numbering eight as of this writing – now establish that people with a knowledge of ancient Hebrew written language and culture were in America during Book of Mormon time frames! Read on for the entire history making story...the case for Book of Mormon written language in America’s Heartland!"http://firmlds.org/hebrew-languagecultu ... a-8-sites/
Across the board on language, artifacts, witnesses, history ect. the battle continues. It seems these detractors have been focusing as much as possible on the folk magic angle. So did fraudster Mark Hoffman. Speaking of fraudsters, nothing makes me more angry than seeing these(mostly haters) folks at the entrances of Church properties including pageants hocking their voodoo vibes propaganda together with doctrines of men and women mingled with scripture, to the young and less informed on these subjects.
One particular minister who would be paid to come down from Wyoming to Temple Square would show up every summer passing out his anti tracts. I stopped and looked through his matériel one day and answered some info. for him. Then knowing he was passing out wrong information(I am sure many other saints before me had pointed that out to him as well) as soon as I walked away he continued passing his same material out to who ever would take them. Obviously he was a real seeker of truth.
Alright, I will get down off of the soap box now. As I said earlier I have lot's more B. of Mormon translation information. Good stuff and it will be ignored by the folks I have been writing about above. They will ignore 1,001 scriptures and quotes, trying to get to something they think they can get some traction on. Apostates, atheists, and certain other Christian groups all like this same playbook. I will start on those quotes soon.

The ORIGINAL manuscript of the BOM was placed in the cornerstone of the Temple at Nauvoo and only reclaimed years later by the RLDS. Only a quarter of the manuscript remained in readable form due to the effect of moisture..

Another version - the Printers Manuscript - which was copied from the original to present to the printer is largely intact.

But BOTH are, in your words: " ... herky jerky scribbled and scratched version(s) that should be the makings of a complex novel such as the book of mormon complete with many name and location and concept errors, strikethroughs, and whatnot ... ".

Again Nelson could not have been referring to ANY extant manuscript. THERE WERE NO OTHERS. The ones that we have - or the portions thereof are all there is. Nelson was putting a gloss on the essential deficiencies of the manuscripts.

You can read them yourself. Transcripts of he manuscripts have been reprinted (with photographs of some of the pages) by Shousen. These three oversized books are pricey but well worth it for the serious student. Skousen shows the true nature of the manuscripts even though he is a TBM.

Basically there were three BOMs before it settled down into something resembling our Modern BOM.

1) The Original Manuscripts as 'dictated' by Smith. No punctuation. Bad spelling. Much correction.

2) The Printers Manuscript - copied from the Original Manuscript and presented to the Printer. Not substantially improved over the original.

3) The BOM - 1830 Edition (Joseph Smith - "Author")- this retained much of the ungrammatical sentence structure and anachronistic wording but had the extreme lack of punctuation and correct spelling (there were no periods for example) corrected by the Printer. This edition includes the rant against Mrs. Harris for making off with the 16 pages.

4) The next edition (JHoseph Smith - "Translator") which had the wording/sentence structure cleaned up and had various theological and logical errors (Mary the Mother of GOD - for example) corrected. It also has the paragraph and chapter structure improved. The rant is gone.

5) Subsequently it is revised more subtly over the years as the winds of doctrine and editorial perogative blow hither and you. For example "white and delightsome" beomes "Pure and delightsome" back and forth.

The original manuscript has all the earmarks of a document dictated from another manuscript. Why Smith would have had to do so is a mystery. One possibility is that he was putting the manuscript/notes/outline in his own words filtered through his storytelling ability in re the "previous inhabitants of the continent" (as testified by his Mother).

He WAS enough of an egomaniac to not be satisfied with what he was provided from Rigdon or whomever.

Now the channeling hypotheses can not be dismissed out of hand. He was trained by my namesake and others in the hermitic arts. His use of the seer stone is consistent with a long tradition stretching back to Europe.

See "The Course on Miracles" or the "Book of Urantia" if you doubt the possibility of complex writings from this source. Think Elizabeth Claire Prophet. Think Ramtha. Think, at a lower level, of a Ouija Board session.

This is not to give credence to any particular theory of cahnelling but just to state that those who "believe" (or who say that they do)are capable of complex amd lengthy documents.

A vivid imagination, a gift of gab, a near eidedic memory, stories told many times around the fireplace in the family cabin now recycled in light of notes provided by one far more literate and well versed in theology (ie - Rigdon), an association with those who dabbled in folk magic (Walters and the alumni of the Wood Scrape), a desire to escape grinding poverty and a life as a hired hand, may explain much.

But the manuscript, in my initial analysis of it, testifies to a near illiterate DICTATING to others of approximately the same level of education. Cowdery may well have been a school teacher but his pages in the original manuscript do not testify either to a great command of the English language or the ability to spell its words.

The Original Manuscript HAS NO PUNCTUATION OR CONSISTENT SPELLING. It is one long run on sentence. Occasionaly there is a break of some kind ('And it came to pass, 'and') which indicate a pause in Smiths dictation.

The Printers Manuscript - which is a copy of the Original Manuscript - shows no essential improvement in literacy.

Think about that! Smith and Cowdery thought that the Printers manuscript was suitable for printing! They let the printer punctuate and clean it up because they had no idea that such was even necessary for publication. They deferred to the printers expertise - which means they lacked their own. This for "... the most correct book ...".

As to the testimony of the witnesses ... if Cowdery was involved, as I believe he was, in what I call "The Enterprise" then his testimony many be discounted in its entirety. Then there remains the task of putting on a show for those not in the know - which would, I take it, include Harris and Emma. Not hard for a "hermetic" con-man and his companions in crime. If they could fool farmers that there was gold on their property from either Captain Kidd or the Spanish and have them pay to have it dug up with the assistance of a seer stone - then convincing a few stray witnesses that you are dictating an ancient manuscript via that same seer stone is easy work.

[kirtland r.m.]

Who ever put this together for you is as dumb as a rock. I can find out with a few google searches. It take me an entire full post to take each paragraph of this stuff apart, piece by piece. In the end it will make no difference to you. I am up to the task though because it may help someone else. I will start by showing you how bad the honesty and research is on what you have posted, in the mean time, why don't you go help your neighbors or do some other productive things instead of making me continually work throughout the forum fixing your misconceptions., and then do the typical anti Mormon shuffle by then jumping to the next item of your agenda. Endless eternal nonsense.

[kirtland r.m.]

Alright Ontario, let's start here. Ancient Near Eastern symbolism with which Joseph Smith could not have been familiar. read on. Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon.https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

[kirtland r.m.]

As I said earlier, this thread can go on for years, I have that much access to information, some little known, on this fascinating ancient scripture and the witnesses and evidence surrounding it. Before I get back to the Ontario post earlier which I full well plan to do, very early in this thread, I said i would post more on Cumorah. This is most interesting.

Not only did Cumorah have loads of battle evidence surrounding it, and for miles spread out in the surrounding areas as I have put up evidence, it also had close access to materials for Moroni to use for his stone box. I have put up evidence by those who say they had seen it. Now here is a bit more on Cumorah it's self.

"After discovering this cave, the Church had a contractor notified about fixing the hole. They came out to the location and put a large thick piece of steel over the hole, (see photo left) and then covered it with dirt. I have some friends who have since been back with detectors and can easily locate the location of where the piece of steel was buried.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/a-hole-in-cumorah/

The above link will also take you to this. About 10 years ago a friend of mine who worked in the Church Video department was on assignment at the Hill Cumorah for a project the Church was working on.

The west side of Hill Cumorah was being prepared for setting up the stage for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. A missionary couple had some guests on a tour showing them around this west facing hill Cumorah. After a time one of the families on tour noticed one of their children was missing from the group. A search for this young man began. After searching for a time the missionary couple and their guest family heard a yell for help several times. They came upon the missing young man who had fallen through an opening in the top west side of the Hill Cumorah.

The hole seemed to be 12-15 feet deep. Someone ran to their car and brought back some jumper cables to assist in bringing the young man up out of the hole.
Enlarge

After the rescue, my video friend was there with the others as they all looked at the hole which was very dark and hard to see anything. (See Photo left)
Enlarge (Notice stacked stone along the wall)

My friend put his camera with its light down the hole and snapped a few pictures. He was very surprised to see the appearance of a cave that was about 15 feet square. The cave was empty (Explained below). On the sides of the walls were stacked stones and there were some stones attached seemingly as shelves coming out from the stacked stones, which would mean the cave would have been man made.

What most people know about the hill Cumorah is that it is classified as a drumlin. “A drumlin, from the Irish word droimnín (“littlest ridge”), first recorded in 1833, and in the classical sense is an elongated hill in the shape of an inverted spoon or half-buried egg formed by glacial ice acting on underlying unconsolidated till or ground moraine.” Source: Wikipedia. Drumlins are created by a glacial drift with moving dirt and debris and won’t leave spaces for caves as other hills and mountains would. Interesting.

The cave was empty (Explained Here)

As you read in Mormon 4:23, “And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.” This would mean the plates from Shim were hid up in a place close to Hill Cumorah.

In one of Jonathan Nevilles blogs he speaks about how the Cave of all the Plates including the Sword of Laban and Liahona were taken from the Cave at Cumorah and probably taken back to the Hill Shim to hide them from people today. David Whitmer below also explains that possibility.

8. Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, 1877
In his book Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, and the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,
Edward Stevenson relates an interview with David Whitmer in 1877:
It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light. But till that day arrives, no Rochester adventurers shall ever see them or the treasures,
although science.

9. David Whitmer, Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878
In an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson, David Whitmer gave another account of the cave:
[Poulson]: Where are the plates now?
[Whitmer]: In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.
[Poulson]: Where is that cave?
[Whitmer]: In the State of New York.
[Poulson]: In the Hill of Comorah?
[Whitmer]: No, but not far away from that place.

8 and 9 above from JOURNAL OF BOOK OF MORMON STUDIES 7-31-2004 Cumorah’s Cave by Cameron J. Packer Volume 13 Number 1 Article 6 Page 55

Much has been said of a cave at Cumorah by early Church leaders, I have posted on this topic on this forum. More coming soon.

[kirtland r.m.]

Most of what Ontario and others write or post from other sources can easily be refuted by posts right here on this forum already. I have more to put up line by line, but today I ran across a quick little list that is from Greg Trimble and I will put some of it on this thread.

So…You Think The Book of Mormon is a Fraud?
If you’re ever having doubts about the restoration or about Joseph Smith, just read the Book of Mormon and ask your self these 11 questions:

Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?
How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.
How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?
If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.
Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?
Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s”) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?
If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?
How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.
How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.

And the most important question to ask yourself is “How do I feel while I read the Book of Mormon?”

Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t trust your feelings. We are spiritual beings, and if we can’t trust our feelings, then what do we have? Over and over again in the Old and New Testament we’re told that we can trust that “still small voice” to guide us in our decisions. (1 Kings 19:12) I can write evidence after evidence to back up the Book of Mormon but each of those evidences I found were only secondary to the whispering of the Spirit I felt that day before I began waxing up my surf board.

If you’ve never read the book, then read it. If it’s what it purports to be…then it might just be the most important book you ever read. In my mind, it would be more of a stretch to believe that Joseph Smith could pull this thing off without divine help than to believe that God preserved a record to come forth in the last days. In fact, it would just be flat out impossible because of the many things he got right that had never even been discovered. You just don’t pull that off without assistance form above.

There is no doubt those plates existed. Too many people felt them with their own hands and saw them with their own eyes. Even the people that were trying to steal them from Joseph knew that he had something special. They existed, and now you can hold it in your hand and find out for yourself if its true.

I want my witness to be that of Elder Holland’s. “I want it absolutely clear when I stand before the judgment bar of God that I declared to the world … that the Book of Mormon is true.” (Safety for the Soul)
https://www.gregtrimble.com/so-you-thin ... s-a-fraud/

I want a clear conscience as well, and on the subject of what I bear witness of, I do.

[kirtland r.m.]

More evidence for the amazing Book of Mormon.
The characterization of Death and Hell, together with themes such as the “bands of death,” preparing an escape route, and swallowing up one’s adversary, are textual evidences that illustrate a genuine underlying background to the Book of Mormon’s assertion that it is connected to the Ancient Near East.

In Joseph Smith’s day people were not aware of these thematic connections the Book of Mormon text had to Ancient Near Eastern texts like the Ugaritic documents discovered at Ras Shamra in 1928.[1] Yet Book of Mormon prophetic authors drew upon these archaic themes without difficulty when offering their witness of Christ as the Messiah who would defeat the enemies of death, hell, and the grave. In the attached article, the connection of these themes is demonstrated in detail. https://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/s ... d_hell.pdf

[EvanLM]

it is interesting that God chose an unlearned man in the languages . . . this makes it very hard for JS to second guess himself on translation. The worldly knowledge that one thinks he should have had but did not was not a distraction from the pure form of translation in which he was using.

Since JS was probably higher IQ but not stupid, unlearned vs learned, then he was able to learn and remember a lot of the translated words that occured over and ever again. this helped him somewhat to finish the translation in the Lord's time.-

Again, he was, at the time unlearned, not stupid. Years later he became a very well learned man. His intelligence IQ had to have been pretty high, coupled with the HG, so as not to frustrate the intelligence that flowed into his mind during this time of translation.

[JustDan]

Kirtland, appreciate all the sources and your time putting this out there.

Any sources from real time (before 1830) about the Book of Mormon and the translation process? Anything that will evidence certain events. Again, I'm looking for sources that were recorded/printed from the time, not created later (such as Lucy Mack Smiths own diary).

[simpleton]

I guess I will die before KRM posts his "boatloads" of information at this rate...