Another historical revision – Hyrum Smith’s missing anti-polygamy discourse from April 1844

[Luke]

Like I have said before and before, anyone here gets a direct revelation on this let me know and we can discuss. But, I am more than confident that Joseph and Hyrum were sealed to multiple females. Call it what you like. they can publicly say what they like. Let's compare to other statements they made about hot topics where publicly they denied (Danites, Orin Porter Rockwell, Masonic statements, on and on and on).

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

[TrueFaith]

No you didn’t.

You did for a while there

No I didn’t

There is literally nothing more contrary to our traditions than Celestial Plural Marriage. As if a belief in monogamy requires laying your traditions on the altar. Lmao

We were born in this church. We were born into this tradition. We have a narrative that has to be upheld which is one of polygamy. If it’s not upheld then our claim of an unbroken line of prophets is broken.

To question the validity of polygamy is to question the validity of our inherited faith tradition. You would agree with this statement, right?

It has nothing to do with that for me. I can say without any doubt that many of our leaders and prophets have taught and said many false doctrines. Nelson and Monson alone have done some absolutely terrible things by opening support to the LGBT community. However, there is no "line" that has to be "unbroken" for the restored gospel to remain true. What nonsense.

Polygamy among God's Kingdom has been around since at least Abraham, that we have historical record of. At times it has gone away, and then returned again.

Joseph Smith would have been wrong to reject it, if that were true. I dont hinge my faith on men, prophets or not.

[TrueFaith]

Like I have said before and before, anyone here gets a direct revelation on this let me know and we can discuss. But, I am more than confident that Joseph and Hyrum were sealed to multiple females. Call it what you like. they can publicly say what they like. Let's compare to other statements they made about hot topics where publicly they denied (Danites, Orin Porter Rockwell, Masonic statements, on and on and on).

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I've also had the Holy Ghost confirm to me that polygamy is true principle given to us from God.

[darknesstolight]

Like I have said before and before, anyone here gets a direct revelation on this let me know and we can discuss. But, I am more than confident that Joseph and Hyrum were sealed to multiple females. Call it what you like. they can publicly say what they like. Let's compare to other statements they made about hot topics where publicly they denied (Danites, Orin Porter Rockwell, Masonic statements, on and on and on).

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy @#$ idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

[TrueFaith]

Like I have said before and before, anyone here gets a direct revelation on this let me know and we can discuss. But, I am more than confident that Joseph and Hyrum were sealed to multiple females. Call it what you like. they can publicly say what they like. Let's compare to other statements they made about hot topics where publicly they denied (Danites, Orin Porter Rockwell, Masonic statements, on and on and on).

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Yes you can. God is a father to billions and He is the best father isnt he?

That last paragraph describes perfectly many fatherless households today under the welfare state which has removed men from the home.

You can never convince me that a home with a father is worse off than one without. Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

[cab]

Like I have said before and before, anyone here gets a direct revelation on this let me know and we can discuss. But, I am more than confident that Joseph and Hyrum were sealed to multiple females. Call it what you like. they can publicly say what they like. Let's compare to other statements they made about hot topics where publicly they denied (Danites, Orin Porter Rockwell, Masonic statements, on and on and on).

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Also impossible to have 30+ wives and not be guilty of lust after someone who is not (yet) your wife. Impossible to solicit additional wives without undue influence and unrighteous dominion, especially when you’re in your 40s and 50s and trying to marry teenagers and early twenty somethings…

[cab]

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

Please provide substance to this false claim.

[TrueFaith]

Already told you weeks ago and repeatedly.

I heard God's voice speak to me and tell me BY was dead wrong on his practice of polygamy. I have direct revelation that the polygamy idea taught by BY and practiced by BY is a horrible mistake and it was never God who gave those revelations to BY.

God told me from His own mouth that BY created a whoredom with his many wives and concubines and it was an abomination just like what David and Solomon did was an abomination.

These were spoken by God's voice to me, which voice is Spirit. It is pure revelation because before this revelation I agreed with and supported BY polygamy.

...

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Also impossible to have 30+ wives and not be guilty of listing after someone who is not (yet) your wife. Impossible to solicit additional wives without undue influence and unrighteous dominion, especially when you’re in your 40s and 50s and trying to marry teenagers and early twenty somethings…

Impossible for you, but with God all things are possible.

[TrueFaith]

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

[darknesstolight]

One final post for me here:

If you guys really and truly believed polygamy as practiced by BY was good and of God and if you really believed this was your ticket to highest glory then you wouldn't be out here talking about it.

Because the best way to find out what a person really believes is to see what they do or where they spend their time and energy.

So how about you polygamy folks put up or shut up. If this is such a glorious wonderful thing and you know God is just thrilled about you having 20 or 30 or more wives then start living it. If you know this is of God then you have no excuse to not live it. Fear of man doesn't excuse you.

I am going to call BS from here on out to anyone who advocates for BY polygamy as a requirement for exaltation but who isn't currently living it. Because I am living my faith and I can put my money where my mouth is.

Otherwise, you are just a wanna be hypocrit. And, BTW, being sealed to a living spouse and a dead spouse is NOT BY polygamy.

...

[cab]

Ok and you can cite that all you like, I’m not trying to knock anyone’s experience. But for what it’s worth I have experienced the exact opposite. Therefore I believe you are deceived

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Also impossible to have 30+ wives and not be guilty of listing after someone who is not (yet) your wife. Impossible to solicit additional wives without undue influence and unrighteous dominion, especially when you’re in your 40s and 50s and trying to marry teenagers and early twenty somethings…

Impossible for you, but with God all things are possible.

You mean God and Brigham Young?

[cab]

I am not because the proof is in the pudding.

You can't have 30+ wives and be a good father and husband to even a fraction of them.

God does not approve of BY polygamy.

Look at the fruits.

Pain. Sorrow. Endless conflicts. Divorce. Dead. Murder. Lies. And so on. All of this in order to protect this crazy donkey idea about making the natural tendency of animals as a God like attribute.

...

Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Heber and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

[TrueFaith]

Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

Shame on you for thinking such perverted thoughts about young women.

It's always the same with liberals. They, themselves have a personal problem, but they pawn off their own shame to others. I've seen this so often. Somehow it makes them feel better if they can judge the thoughts and tear down others instead of dealing with themselves.

[Luke]

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

Shame on you for thinking such perverted thoughts about young women.

It's always the same with liberals. They, themselves have a personal problem, but they pawn off their own shame to others. I've seen this so often. Somehow it makes them feel better if they can judge the thoughts and tear down others instead of dealing with themselves.

Yeah it’s like I said yesterday, the fact that they simply have to make everything to do with polygamy vulgar shows their true character and gives an insight into their sordid selves...

[cab]

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

Shame on you for thinking such perverted thoughts about young women.

It's always the same with liberals. They, themselves have a personal problem, but they pawn off their own shame to others. I've seen this so often. Somehow it makes them feel better if they can judge the thoughts and tear down others instead of dealing with themselves.

Oh please. Get off your high horse shadow

[darknesstolight]

Many women in the early church days on the frontier would have fallen by the wayside if they hadn't been in a plural marriage.

Please provide substance to this false claim.

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

You are right. Look at any example of a any mortal man who has 10+ wives like BY from any period if time in history and you don't see this utopia or this ideal, oh it's just about taking care of old women not sex, what you see is lots of neglect, lots of heartache, lots of in fighting, lots of young pretty girls as wives, lots of sex, lots of jealousy, lots of broken children, etc.

The whole Mid East conflict has its roots from polygamy in fighting between preferred and non-preferred spouse and/or children.

This is what most polygamy of the BY ilk looks like (having one or two or so wives seems to be manageable at the level and context I'm speaking to):

"Saleh al-Sayeri

This 64-year-old businessman has had 58 wives, but doesn't remember the names of most of them. He has 10 sons and somewhere between 22 and 28 daughters "“ he's not exactly sure. He does know, though, that all of his marriages and settlements have cost him more than $1.6 million.

Islamic law allows men to have up to four wives at a time, but he says he has kept the same three for the past 20 years or more "“ it's the fourth wife he rotates out. "It's the one for renewal," he said. "I like to change my fourth wife every year."

One of his sons, Fahd al-Sayeri, said he was out with friends when they heard celebratory gunshots coming from a tent, signaling a wedding. When he conversationally asked who got married, Fahd was informed that it was his own father. Again."

...

[cab]

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

Shame on you for thinking such perverted thoughts about young women.

It's always the same with liberals. They, themselves have a personal problem, but they pawn off their own shame to others. I've seen this so often. Somehow it makes them feel better if they can judge the thoughts and tear down others instead of dealing with themselves.

Yeah it’s like I said yesterday, the fact that they simply have to make everything to do with polygamy vulgar shows their true character and gives an insight into their sordid selves...

Come on Luke. You’re better than resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
Was Hyrum of a vulgar mind when he attacked it in his talk?

[LDS Watchman]

The church that he founded uses lying as its modus operandi and has done so since very near the beginning of its existence.

Talk is cheap. It's easy to hurl accusations at the Saints from the great and spacious building, but backing them up is a different story. Please share with us all of the lies the church has used as its "modus operandi since very near the beginning of its existence." If your accusation is true, you should be able to provide quite the list for us.

In any other arena "carefully worded denials" is considered nothing but lying.

Contextual lie:
One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them. To say "Yeah, that's right, I ate all the white chocolate, by myself," using sarcasm, a form of assertion by ridiculing the fact(s) implying the liar believes it to be preposterous.

Economical with the truth:
Economy with the truth is popularly used as a euphemism for deceit, whether by volunteering false information (i.e., lying) or by deliberately holding back relevant facts. More literally, it describes a careful use of facts so as not to reveal too much information, as in "speaking carefully".

Misleading and dissembling:
A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth. "Dissembling" likewise describes the presentation of facts in a way that is literally true, but intentionally misleading.

So based on these definitions you apparently believe that Abraham, Nephi, Jesus Christ, etc. were all liars. Good to know.

[LDS Watchman]

The provenance of section 132 is such a convoluted mess. To say it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best.

The provenance of D&C 132 is very well documented and corroborated. But if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that saying that "it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best," that's up to you. I'm working on documenting how well corroborated the contents of D&C 132 is. I think all you polygamy deniers will be shocked once I present it.

[cab]

The provenance of section 132 is such a convoluted mess. To say it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best.

The provenance of D&C 132 is very well documented and corroborated. But if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that saying that "it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best," that's up to you. I'm working on documenting how well corroborated the contents of D&C 132 is. I think all you polygamy deniers will be shocked once I present it.

I highly doubt it, so don’t flatter yourself. The shock I had was when I discovered how flimsy the actual evidence is.

I’m pretty sure we’ve seen everything you’re putting together.

[LDS Watchman]

The provenance of section 132 is such a convoluted mess. To say it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best.

The provenance of D&C 132 is very well documented and corroborated. But if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that saying that "it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best," that's up to you. I'm working on documenting how well corroborated the contents of D&C 132 is. I think all you polygamy deniers will be shocked once I present it.

I highly doubt it. The shock I had was when I discovered how flimsy the actual evidence is.

If the evidence is so flimsy why haven't you even attempted to explain that letter from Joseph Smith to the Whitneys? Guess the evidence isn't so flimsy after all.

[cab]

The provenance of section 132 is such a convoluted mess. To say it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best.

The provenance of D&C 132 is very well documented and corroborated. But if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that saying that "it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best," that's up to you. I'm working on documenting how well corroborated the contents of D&C 132 is. I think all you polygamy deniers will be shocked once I present it.

I highly doubt it. The shock I had was when I discovered how flimsy the actual evidence is.

If the evidence is so flimsy why haven't you even attempted to explain that letter from Joseph Smith to the Whitneys? Guess the evidence isn't so flimsy after all.

I did plenty. Provided a link which detailed my take better than I could. Didn’t see a need to regurgitate. Then we started name calling and I exited stage left.

[TrueFaith]

I can give you thousands of examples today. All the inactive single women in my ward who are old or disabled who live in a garbage dump, waiting on handouts just to survive. These women would be far better off living with a successful wealthy man to take care of them.

Two women in my ward call on me and my wife weekly for help. Rides to the store, yard cleanup, food, etc.

My wife used to think like you. Now she tells me that she understands the purpose of polygamy. It is better for a woman to be taken care of by one man than for a welfare state or a neighborhood community who cannot address her needs on a personal level. Its not about sex like you think it is.

The frontier would have been far, far worse for them.

Unfortunately the picture you’re painting isn’t what history bears out. Brigham, Henry and the Twelve weren’t out looking for poor destitute widows who were starving to take in. Go look at the ages of girls they married. By their own admission, they would jockey for position to wed the new girls and women who would arrive with each new batch of converts arriving to Utah.

Shame on you for thinking such perverted thoughts about young women.

It's always the same with liberals. They, themselves have a personal problem, but they pawn off their own shame to others. I've seen this so often. Somehow it makes them feel better if they can judge the thoughts and tear down others instead of dealing with themselves.

Yeah it’s like I said yesterday, the fact that they simply have to make everything to do with polygamy vulgar shows their true character and gives an insight into their sordid selves...

Exactly. That's where their thoughts go very first. It's telling.

And we're living in a very different world today. Porn is everywhere you look. These kind of dark thoughts wouldn't have been in the minds of those people on the frontier like they are today. Women covered up, there were no magazines, billboard, or television like today. Not to mention frontier life was work from dawn till dusk every day.

You simply can't judge their intentions back then. But that's exactly what virtue signalers of the cult of wokeism does. So high and righteous.

Our country would be far better off if we practiced polygamy rather than rely on the welfare state. Broken families because of polygamy, what a joke. Utah families have always historically been some of the strongest in the world...that is up until the sexual revolution.

Talk about broken families. Where the hell have you been during the last 50 years? I'd trade polygamy for what we have now any day.

[LDS Watchman]

One final post for me here:

If you guys really and truly believed polygamy as practiced by BY was good and of God and if you really believed this was your ticket to highest glory then you wouldn't be out here talking about it.

Because the best way to find out what a person really believes is to see what they do or where they spend their time and energy.

So how about you polygamy folks put up or shut up. If this is such a glorious wonderful thing and you know God is just thrilled about you having 20 or 30 or more wives then start living it. If you know this is of God then you have no excuse to not live it. Fear of man doesn't excuse you.

I am going to call BS from here on out to anyone who advocates for BY polygamy as a requirement for exaltation but who isn't currently living it. Because I am living my faith and I can put my money where my mouth is.

Otherwise, you are just a wanna be hypocrit. And, BTW, being sealed to a living spouse and a dead spouse is NOT BY polygamy.

...

Nice try.

It's clear from the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith that having more than one wife is an abomination unless God expressly commands it and these marriages are performed by the proper authority from God. And I for one have not received such a command from God.

So, even though I am not a polygamist, I will continue to defend the truthfulness of this principle when commanded by God. Just as I will continue to defend every other true doctrine and principle.

[LDS Watchman]

The provenance of D&C 132 is very well documented and corroborated. But if you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that saying that "it clearly came from Joseph Smith is conjecture at best," that's up to you. I'm working on documenting how well corroborated the contents of D&C 132 is. I think all you polygamy deniers will be shocked once I present it.

I highly doubt it. The shock I had was when I discovered how flimsy the actual evidence is.

If the evidence is so flimsy why haven't you even attempted to explain that letter from Joseph Smith to the Whitneys? Guess the evidence isn't so flimsy after all.

I did plenty. Provided a link which detailed my take better than I could. Didn’t see a need to regurgitate. Then we started name calling and I exited stage left.

I must have missed that link. Can you share it again?

All I recall is you saying that the letter contained nothing of substance and was hearsay.

Then the thread was mysteriously locked, while this one remained open.