How to know if you have the Spirit- David Whitmer

[Claymore]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

[Sarah]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

Great quote! Thanks for sharing.

[AGoodGlobalCitizen]

Thank you for sharing this. I have a very hard time loving and feeling anything positive for people, beliefs and movements that I feel are evil. I need to remember Christ's words on this more often.

[Claymore]

Thank you for sharing this. I have a very hard time loving and feeling anything positive for people, beliefs and movements that I feel are evil. I need to remember Christ's words on this more often.

I hear you. We are asked to walk on a tight rope, for the path is straight and narrow. I like how simple it is to know if you have the Spirit. God is love, so if you are full of love towards all, then you have the Spirit. Absolutely wonderful!

Claymore

[Pazooka]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

Did he forget his own counsel when he apostatized in Kirtland? Or when he condemned the Mormons in Missouri, aiding in the process that led to the extermination order? Or when he started up his own church, the Whitmerites?

[Claymore]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

Did he forget his own counsel when he apostatized in Kirtland? Or when he condemned the Mormons in Missouri, aiding in the process that led to the extermination order? Or when he started up his own church, the Whitmerites?

So, what exactly were his crimes? What wrongs did he commit? Are you looking at these events from only the official narrative of how he betrayed Joseph and was jealous of Sidney Rigdon, or have you also read his account?

He claims the leaders were taking the church astray by not heeding the scriptures and the revelations given. They were actually changing many of the revelation to suit their desires. He fought hard to keep the church right and often told Joseph not do something because the Lord told him (Joseph) otherwise. David often told Joseph what would happen if he went through with it. But Joseph loves heeding his friends more than the Lord and went along with Sidney Rigdon. One of the times Joseph acknowledged David's gift of prophecy and said he should become the next leader of the church (Joseph seems to have done this many times with multiple people). That is why the Whitmerites were formed. Several people after Joseph's death recalled Joseph's words and asked David to take on Joseph's mantle. He did, but after a while saw the folly of the church's leadership (first presidency) mantle as it is not scriptural and dropped it.

Now, in 1838 when he resigned his membership with the church (after which they excommunicated him), leadership threatened him and others with death if they did not leave the county. Is that something from Christ or the devil? What about a secret band, called the danites, sanctioned by church leaders which made oaths to support church leaders and everything they taught and cause problems for "dissenters". This band looted and burned the homes of many that were excommunicated...is that from Christ or the devil? Sounds like secret combinations to me.

Here are the words of the letter from Sidney Rigdon to the "apostates":

"To Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman E. Johnson, greeting: Out of the county you shall go, and no power shall save you. And you shall have three days after you receive this communication...for you to depart with your families peaceably;...and unless you heed us,...there shall be no escape; for there is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you...we will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God."

In June 1838 as he (David Whitmer) was leaving Far West on horseback, the voice of God spoke to him. Here is his account:

"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."

As the church cast him from his home and threatened him with death, so too shall it be for the Latter Day Saints. Is this not what happened to the Latter Day Saints?

A major problem I have with the LDS church is the whitewashing of its own history. Why are we told not to read anti-mormon literature? Is it because we might find something true that shows the church as not being innocent or the victim but actually being at fault or the perpetrator? The church cherry picks its faith promoting history and spins and covers everything else. This is why there are so many people falling away from the church. The internet has taken away the carefully spun fence of half-truths and denials the church hides its faults behind and brings them to light. It only took the church a few years to be condemned by the Lord. If you read reliable first hand accounts of known honorable people it is easy to see why.

My point is for people to take off the rose tinted glasses they wear and see the church and its history for what it really is...an ugly mess. Joseph's pride was the catalyst for this. If only he were content with being just the translator of the Book of Mormon and an elder in the church, as the Lord desired for him, things would have been different. I hate saying it, but it is true.

It also pains me to say the biggest stumbling block of the Book of Mormon is the LDS church and all its baggage. Many that leave the church throw away the Book of Mormon as the two are unfortunately tied together. The book is perfect as it is, the church is not.

As critical as I am, I am grateful to Joseph for translating the Book. I am grateful for the endurance he and others showed during the challenges of bringing the Book to light and being strong in the process. I am grateful to the undying faithfulness of the witnesses to their testimony of the Book. I am grateful for the Book of Mormon. I love this Book. I know that the fullness of the gospel is found within the Bible and Book of Mormon together. I am thankful to the Lord for so much, but with regards to this post, inspiring me to research David Whitmer a few years ago. It answered so many questions I have prayed about my whole life and given me closure.

Thank you for reading my rant. I know most, if not all, will disagree with me...I'm okay with that. My prayer is that our faith is in Jesus and him alone. Not the church, not Russell Nelson, and not even Joseph, but Jesus. He is our Father, the author and finisher of our salvation.

Claymore

[Pazooka]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

Did he forget his own counsel when he apostatized in Kirtland? Or when he condemned the Mormons in Missouri, aiding in the process that led to the extermination order? Or when he started up his own church, the Whitmerites?

So, what exactly were his crimes? What wrongs did he commit? Are you looking at these events from only the official narrative of how he betrayed Joseph and was jealous of Sidney Rigdon, or have you also read his account?

He claims the leaders were taking the church astray by not heeding the scriptures and the revelations given. They were actually changing many of the revelation to suit their desires. He fought hard to keep the church right and often told Joseph not do something because the Lord told him (Joseph) otherwise. David often told Joseph what would happen if he went through with it. But Joseph loves heeding his friends more than the Lord and went along with Sidney Rigdon. One of the times Joseph acknowledged David's gift of prophecy and said he should become the next leader of the church (Joseph seems to have done this many times with multiple people). That is why the Whitmerites were formed. Several people after Joseph's death recalled Joseph's words and asked David to take on Joseph's mantle. He did, but after a while saw the folly of the church's leadership (first presidency) mantle as it is not scriptural and dropped it.

Now, in 1838 when he resigned his membership with the church (after which they excommunicated him), leadership threatened him and others with death if they did not leave the county. Is that something from Christ or the devil? What about a secret band, called the danites, sanctioned by church leaders which made oaths to support church leaders and everything they taught and cause problems for "dissenters". This band looted and burned the homes of many that were excommunicated...is that from Christ or the devil? Sounds like secret combinations to me.

Here are the words of the letter from Sidney Rigdon to the "apostates":

"To Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman E. Johnson, greeting: Out of the county you shall go, and no power shall save you. And you shall have three days after you receive this communication...for you to depart with your families peaceably;...and unless you heed us,...there shall be no escape; for there is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you...we will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God."

In June 1838 as he (David Whitmer) was leaving Far West on horseback, the voice of God spoke to him. Here is his account:

"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."

As the church cast him from his home and threatened him with death, so too shall it be for the Latter Day Saints. Is this not what happened to the Latter Day Saints?

A major problem I have with the LDS church is the whitewashing of its own history. Why are we told not to read anti-mormon literature? Is it because we might find something true that shows the church as not being innocent or the victim but actually being at fault or the perpetrator? The church cherry picks its faith promoting history and spins and covers everything else. This is why there are so many people falling away from the church. The internet has taken away the carefully spun fence of half-truths and denials the church hides its faults behind and brings them to light. It only took the church a few years to be condemned by the Lord. If you read reliable first hand accounts of known honorable people it is easy to see why.

My point is for people to take off the rose tinted glasses they wear and see the church and its history for what it really is...an ugly mess. Joseph's pride was the catalyst for this. If only he were content with being just the translator of the Book of Mormon and an elder in the church, as the Lord desired for him, things would have been different. I hate saying it, but it is true.

It also pains me to say the biggest stumbling block of the Book of Mormon is the LDS church and all its baggage. Many that leave the church throw away the Book of Mormon as the two are unfortunately tied together. The book is perfect as it is, the church is not.

As critical as I am, I am grateful to Joseph for translating the Book. I am grateful for the endurance he and others showed during the challenges of bringing the Book to light and being strong in the process. I am grateful to the undying faithfulness of the witnesses to their testimony of the Book. I am grateful for the Book of Mormon. I love this Book. I know that the fullness of the gospel is found within the Bible and Book of Mormon together. I am thankful to the Lord for so much, but with regards to this post, inspiring me to research David Whitmer a few years ago. It answered so many questions I have prayed about my whole life and given me closure.

Thank you for reading my rant. I know most, if not all, will disagree with me...I'm okay with that. My prayer is that our faith is in Jesus and him alone. Not the church, not Russell Nelson, and not even Joseph, but Jesus. He is our Father, the author and finisher of our salvation.

Claymore

I’m hearing what you’re saying and agree that the history is tricky. I guess I just disagree about who, between JS and DW, was actually on God’s errand.

[Cruiserdude]

Sorry to get off topic of the David vs Joseph thing
Regardless of how one thinks David or Joseph lived, the message is holy and true. Things that inspire us to deeply love our fellow men are of God. We've all experienced that love for our fellow men. We know it's real.
This message reminded me to be true to who and how I am to be.
Anyways, I caught a line from Reverently and Meekly Now and wanted to look up all the words/lyrics. It's written as if the Savior is speaking these words to us. What a beautiful hymn.

1. Rev’rently and meekly now,
Let thy head most humbly bow.
Think of me, thou ransomed one;
Think what I for thee have done.
With my blood that dripped like rain,
Sweat in agony of pain,
With my body on the tree
I have ransomed even thee.

2. In this bread now blest for thee,
Emblem of my body see;
In this water or this wine,
Emblem of my blood divine.
Oh, remember what was done
That the sinner might be won.
On the cross of Calvary
I have suffered death for thee.

3. Bid thine heart all strife to cease;
With thy brethren be at peace.
Oh, forgive as thou wouldst be
E’en forgiven now by me.
In the solemn faith of prayer
Cast upon me all thy care,
And my Spirit’s grace shall be
Like a fountain unto thee.

4. At the throne I intercede;
For thee ever do I plead.
I have loved thee as thy friend,
With a love that cannot end.
Be obedient, I implore,
Prayerful, watchful evermore,
And be constant unto me,
That thy Savior I may be.

[Claymore]

Sorry to get off topic of the David vs Joseph thing
Regardless of how one thinks David or Joseph lived, the message is holy and true. Things that inspire us to deeply love our fellow men are of God. We've all experienced that love for our fellow men. We know it's real.
This message reminded me to be true to who and how I am to be.
Anyways, I caught a line from Reverently and Meekly Now and wanted to look up all the words/lyrics. It's written as if the Savior is speaking these words to us. What a beautiful hymn.

1. Rev’rently and meekly now,
Let thy head most humbly bow.
Think of me, thou ransomed one;
Think what I for thee have done.
With my blood that dripped like rain,
Sweat in agony of pain,
With my body on the tree
I have ransomed even thee.

2. In this bread now blest for thee,
Emblem of my body see;
In this water or this wine,
Emblem of my blood divine.
Oh, remember what was done
That the sinner might be won.
On the cross of Calvary
I have suffered death for thee.

3. Bid thine heart all strife to cease;
With thy brethren be at peace.
Oh, forgive as thou wouldst be
E’en forgiven now by me.
In the solemn faith of prayer
Cast upon me all thy care,
And my Spirit’s grace shall be
Like a fountain unto thee.

4. At the throne I intercede;
For thee ever do I plead.
I have loved thee as thy friend,
With a love that cannot end.
Be obedient, I implore,
Prayerful, watchful evermore,
And be constant unto me,
That thy Savior I may be.

What beautiful and powerful lyrics! They move me. Thank you for sharing.

Claymore

[ampeterlin]

Here is what Paul the apostle said and did when church members criticized him:

2 Corinthians 12 (amplified version)

11 Now I have become foolish; you have forced me [by questioning my apostleship]. Actually I should have been commended by you [instead of being treated disdainfully], for I was not inferior to those super-apostles, even if I am nobody. 12 The signs that indicate a genuine apostle were performed among you fully and most patiently—signs and wonders and miracles. 13 For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except [for the fact] that I did not burden you [with my financial support]? Forgive me [for doing you] this injustice!

14 Now for the third time I am ready to visit you. I will not burden you [financially], because I do not want what is yours [not your money or your possessions], but you. For children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 But I will very gladly spend [my own resources] and be utterly spent for your souls. If I love you greatly, am I to be loved less [by you]? 16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you [with my support]. But [some say that] I was sly and took you by trickery. 17 Did I take advantage of you or make any money off you through any of the messengers I sent you? [Certainly not!] 18 I urged Titus to go, and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take advantage of you, did he? [No!] Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit and walk in the same steps? [Of course!]

[Claymore]

Here is what Paul the apostle said and did when church members criticized him:

2 Corinthians 12 (amplified version)

11 Now I have become foolish; you have forced me [by questioning my apostleship]. Actually I should have been commended by you [instead of being treated disdainfully], for I was not inferior to those super-apostles, even if I am nobody. 12 The signs that indicate a genuine apostle were performed among you fully and most patiently—signs and wonders and miracles. 13 For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except [for the fact] that I did not burden you [with my financial support]? Forgive me [for doing you] this injustice!

14 Now for the third time I am ready to visit you. I will not burden you [financially], because I do not want what is yours [not your money or your possessions], but you. For children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 But I will very gladly spend [my own resources] and be utterly spent for your souls. If I love you greatly, am I to be loved less [by you]? 16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you [with my support]. But [some say that] I was sly and took you by trickery. 17 Did I take advantage of you or make any money off you through any of the messengers I sent you? [Certainly not!] 18 I urged Titus to go, and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take advantage of you, did he? [No!] Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit and walk in the same steps? [Of course!]

As I am reading this I am reminded of King Benjamin and his address. He did his best not to be a burden on his people and act as their servant. Great examples for all of us.

Claymore

[ampeterlin]

While reading a pamphlet written by David Whitmer, I came across a great passage. It is very simple and straightforward. The world desperately needs the Spirit of the Lord. I hope you all enjoy.

"I desire to say a few words concerning the Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Christ — the greatest gift of God to man. Many people claim to have this gift. I am not judging anyone, but I will tell you how we can tell when we have the Spirit of Christ; and when we have not this feeling and spirit, we have not His Spirit. When we have the Spirit of Christ, our hearts are filled with the love of God that reaches out and takes in all men, even our enemies. We then have every particle of prejudice, malice, envy and hatred cast out of our hearts; we then have no hatred whatever toward any person, even an enemy. Remember the words of Christ: "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the Publicans the same? But I say unto you, Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you. ... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." Nothing short of this is the Spirit of Christ. By this you can know whether you have the Holy Ghost or not. This is the test."

Claymore

Did he forget his own counsel when he apostatized in Kirtland? Or when he condemned the Mormons in Missouri, aiding in the process that led to the extermination order? Or when he started up his own church, the Whitmerites?

So, what exactly were his crimes? What wrongs did he commit? Are you looking at these events from only the official narrative of how he betrayed Joseph and was jealous of Sidney Rigdon, or have you also read his account?

He claims the leaders were taking the church astray by not heeding the scriptures and the revelations given. They were actually changing many of the revelation to suit their desires. He fought hard to keep the church right and often told Joseph not do something because the Lord told him (Joseph) otherwise. David often told Joseph what would happen if he went through with it. But Joseph loves heeding his friends more than the Lord and went along with Sidney Rigdon. One of the times Joseph acknowledged David's gift of prophecy and said he should become the next leader of the church (Joseph seems to have done this many times with multiple people). That is why the Whitmerites were formed. Several people after Joseph's death recalled Joseph's words and asked David to take on Joseph's mantle. He did, but after a while saw the folly of the church's leadership (first presidency) mantle as it is not scriptural and dropped it.

Now, in 1838 when he resigned his membership with the church (after which they excommunicated him), leadership threatened him and others with death if they did not leave the county. Is that something from Christ or the devil? What about a secret band, called the danites, sanctioned by church leaders which made oaths to support church leaders and everything they taught and cause problems for "dissenters". This band looted and burned the homes of many that were excommunicated...is that from Christ or the devil? Sounds like secret combinations to me.

Here are the words of the letter from Sidney Rigdon to the "apostates":

"To Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman E. Johnson, greeting: Out of the county you shall go, and no power shall save you. And you shall have three days after you receive this communication...for you to depart with your families peaceably;...and unless you heed us,...there shall be no escape; for there is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you...we will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God."

In June 1838 as he (David Whitmer) was leaving Far West on horseback, the voice of God spoke to him. Here is his account:

"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."

As the church cast him from his home and threatened him with death, so too shall it be for the Latter Day Saints. Is this not what happened to the Latter Day Saints?

A major problem I have with the LDS church is the whitewashing of its own history. Why are we told not to read anti-mormon literature? Is it because we might find something true that shows the church as not being innocent or the victim but actually being at fault or the perpetrator? The church cherry picks its faith promoting history and spins and covers everything else. This is why there are so many people falling away from the church. The internet has taken away the carefully spun fence of half-truths and denials the church hides its faults behind and brings them to light. It only took the church a few years to be condemned by the Lord. If you read reliable first hand accounts of known honorable people it is easy to see why.

My point is for people to take off the rose tinted glasses they wear and see the church and its history for what it really is...an ugly mess. Joseph's pride was the catalyst for this. If only he were content with being just the translator of the Book of Mormon and an elder in the church, as the Lord desired for him, things would have been different. I hate saying it, but it is true.

It also pains me to say the biggest stumbling block of the Book of Mormon is the LDS church and all its baggage. Many that leave the church throw away the Book of Mormon as the two are unfortunately tied together. The book is perfect as it is, the church is not.

As critical as I am, I am grateful to Joseph for translating the Book. I am grateful for the endurance he and others showed during the challenges of bringing the Book to light and being strong in the process. I am grateful to the undying faithfulness of the witnesses to their testimony of the Book. I am grateful for the Book of Mormon. I love this Book. I know that the fullness of the gospel is found within the Bible and Book of Mormon together. I am thankful to the Lord for so much, but with regards to this post, inspiring me to research David Whitmer a few years ago. It answered so many questions I have prayed about my whole life and given me closure.

Thank you for reading my rant. I know most, if not all, will disagree with me...I'm okay with that. My prayer is that our faith is in Jesus and him alone. Not the church, not Russell Nelson, and not even Joseph, but Jesus. He is our Father, the author and finisher of our salvation.

Claymore

I believe David is telling the truth. I wonder what made Sidney Rigdon so attractive to Joseph. David explains the church changing their name from the Church of Christ in that same address. That is very interesting. In the D&C, it is in a revelation from the Lord that the name of the church was to be changed. Why would the Lord change the name of the church? Seems like philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Easy enough to say we do not know the mind of God.

Was it David that said, Joseph repented of his pride right before he died? How would he know that if true? I hope it is true, like for all of us.

A spiritual mantle cannot be conferred by man unless driven by the Spirit. Or, it is given completely straight through the Spirit by the Lord. I have received a spiritual mantle and had it taken away. It came not from any doing on my part, and it obviously had a time limit!

[LukeAir2008]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

[Pazooka]

I don’t think DW’s litmus test for whether or not you have the HG is foolproof and I think the proof is in the pudding of DW’s life.

Feelings can be deceptive.

[Claymore]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

[Claymore]

I don’t think DW’s litmus test for whether or not you have the HG is foolproof and I think the proof is in the pudding of DW’s life.

Feelings can be deceptive.

Feelings can be deceptive, but the love he is talking about I don't believe is a fleeting and fickle emotion. It fills and penetrates you. It is deep and lasting. Even when life is rough and you are tired and frustrated it is still there. Instead of a feeling it is more like an attribute or a way you view things and how you interact. David is not wrong as it is validated in Galatians 5:22-23:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

To me these scriptures are the result of having the Spirit and not how the Spirit communicates, like I was taught to interpret them during my mission. If you have the Spirit you can expect these attributed to develop greatly and be amplified. As a result you are no longer bound to the law and are free of its consequences for God dwells in you, a holy temple.

Claymore

[Pazooka]

I don’t think DW’s litmus test for whether or not you have the HG is foolproof and I think the proof is in the pudding of DW’s life.

Feelings can be deceptive.

Feelings can be deceptive, but the love he is talking about I don't believe is a fleeting and fickle emotion. It fills and penetrates you. It is deep and lasting. Even when life is rough and you are tired and frustrated it is still there. Instead of a feeling it is more like an attribute or a way you view things and how you interact. David is not wrong as it is validated in Galatians 5:22-23:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

To me these scriptures are the result of having the Spirit and not how the Spirit communicates, like I was taught to interpret them during my mission. If you have the Spirit you can expect these attributed to develop greatly and be amplified. As a result you are no longer bound to the law and are free of its consequences for God dwells in you, a holy temple.

Claymore

Yeah, but even the scripture you shared explains that these are the fruits - - the end product (ie. these will inevitably follow). The seed phase seems to be the sphere of action where we’re deciding what to plant.

I have a single friend who was soooo sure things were going to work out with this man she had been dating but that she hadn’t heard from in 6 months. She went to the temple and prayed constantly to know whether she should hold onto that hope for marriage or make other plans. One year later, she is starting to realize that may not have been the Holy Ghost telling her that things will work out with him, even though...she had those really good, universal love feelings plus peace and hope and long suffering and kumbaya.

We have a 2-3 witness system for a reason, right?

[John Tavner]

I don’t think DW’s litmus test for whether or not you have the HG is foolproof and I think the proof is in the pudding of DW’s life.

Feelings can be deceptive.

Feelings can be deceptive, but the love he is talking about I don't believe is a fleeting and fickle emotion. It fills and penetrates you. It is deep and lasting. Even when life is rough and you are tired and frustrated it is still there. Instead of a feeling it is more like an attribute or a way you view things and how you interact. David is not wrong as it is validated in Galatians 5:22-23:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

To me these scriptures are the result of having the Spirit and not how the Spirit communicates, like I was taught to interpret them during my mission. If you have the Spirit you can expect these attributed to develop greatly and be amplified. As a result you are no longer bound to the law and are free of its consequences for God dwells in you, a holy temple.

Claymore

Yeah, but even the scripture you shared explains that these are the fruits - - the end product (ie. these will inevitably follow). The seed phase seems to be the sphere of action where we’re deciding what to plant.

I have a single friend who was soooo sure things were going to work out with this man she had been dating but that she hadn’t heard from in 6 months. She went to the temple and prayed constantly to know whether she should hold onto that hope for marriage or make other plans. One year later, she is starting to realize that may not have been the Holy Ghost telling her that things will work out with him, even though...she had those really good, universal love feelings plus peace and hope and long suffering and kumbaya.

We have a 2-3 witness system for a reason, right?

A lot of times we make assumptions. She very well could have heard the Spirit tell her "things will work out" or something similar and just assumed that meant with this man, rather than inquiring further ergo, she got an answer, but interpreted it to consume it after her lusts. I've learned to distinguish how I ask questions. Rather than "can I?" or something like that, if I want to understand, it is better for me to ask "Should I" or even ask "Am I even asking the right question."

I've personally discovered I have to be willing to do what I don't wnat to do when I speak with the LOrd and be honest about my intentions. It helps a lot, because His grace can then attend our own weakness - of the flesh and help us sort things out.

As for DW, I think he was correct for the most part from his perspective. He did get chased out of his home, the Danites threatened his life as well as many others... and I guarantee you that wasn't a fruit of the Spirit because anyone who has a spirit of murder and hate in their hearts isn't of God. THe church published revelations they were specifically told not to publish and consequences follow. In others, I believe DW was too rigid. All of them erred in some way, shape or form. I guarantee you the idea of High priest was not injected by God, did God let them do it, yes, because as D&C literally says, they wanted to obey the lesser law, so God gave it to them.. because of their unbelief. I just remember that I likely err (as did they of old as the scripture says) because of precepts of man too- because the scriptures say that all are astray or err in some way. (2 Nephi 28).

[Pazooka]

I don’t think DW’s litmus test for whether or not you have the HG is foolproof and I think the proof is in the pudding of DW’s life.

Feelings can be deceptive.

Feelings can be deceptive, but the love he is talking about I don't believe is a fleeting and fickle emotion. It fills and penetrates you. It is deep and lasting. Even when life is rough and you are tired and frustrated it is still there. Instead of a feeling it is more like an attribute or a way you view things and how you interact. David is not wrong as it is validated in Galatians 5:22-23:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

To me these scriptures are the result of having the Spirit and not how the Spirit communicates, like I was taught to interpret them during my mission. If you have the Spirit you can expect these attributed to develop greatly and be amplified. As a result you are no longer bound to the law and are free of its consequences for God dwells in you, a holy temple.

Claymore

Yeah, but even the scripture you shared explains that these are the fruits - - the end product (ie. these will inevitably follow). The seed phase seems to be the sphere of action where we’re deciding what to plant.

I have a single friend who was soooo sure things were going to work out with this man she had been dating but that she hadn’t heard from in 6 months. She went to the temple and prayed constantly to know whether she should hold onto that hope for marriage or make other plans. One year later, she is starting to realize that may not have been the Holy Ghost telling her that things will work out with him, even though...she had those really good, universal love feelings plus peace and hope and long suffering and kumbaya.

We have a 2-3 witness system for a reason, right?

A lot of times we make assumptions. She very well could have heard the Spirit tell her "things will work out" or something similar and just assumed that meant with this man, rather than inquiring further ergo, she got an answer, but interpreted it to consume it after her lusts. I've learned to distinguish how I ask questions. Rather than "can I?" or something like that, if I want to understand, it is better for me to ask "Should I" or even ask "Am I even asking the right question."

I've personally discovered I have to be willing to do what I don't wnat to do when I speak with the LOrd and be honest about my intentions. It helps a lot, because His grace can then attend our own weakness - of the flesh and help us sort things out.

As for DW, I think he was correct for the most part from his perspective. He did get chased out of his home, the Danites threatened his life as well as many others... and I guarantee you that wasn't a fruit of the Spirit because anyone who has a spirit of murder and hate in their hearts isn't of God. THe church published revelations they were specifically told not to publish and consequences follow. In others, I believe DW was too rigid. All of them erred in some way, shape or form. I guarantee you the idea of High priest was not injected by God, did God let them do it, yes, because as D&C literally says, they wanted to obey the lesser law, so God gave it to them.. because of their unbelief. I just remember that I likely err because of precepts of man too- because the scriptures say that all are astray or err in some way. (2 Nephi 28).

I see what you’re saying, but the Danites being wrong doesn’t exactly make DW right.

I think there are plenty of lying spirits, good at what they do, parading as angels of light, ready to convince anyone of anything. Even Joseph Smith almost fell for it on the banks of the Susquehenna, according to D&C, and Michael had to intervene.

[larsenb]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

So, this would seem to imply that his revelations, at least those post-BoM, as published in our D&C are spurious. Thoughts on this?

[Claymore]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

So, this would seem to imply that his revelations, at least those post-BoM, as published in our D&C are spurious. Thoughts on this?

During the printing stage of the Book of Mormon, I read a story where Joseph received a revelation which ended up being wrong. Joseph then went to the Lord to find out what happened and was told that some revelation is from God, some from man, and some from the devil. My world then changed. Couple that with stories where Joseph was told explicitly from the Lord one thing, where there was no room for negotiation, and then Joseph being talked into doing the opposite by his close circle. The revelation was then revised adding in a loophole to condone their actions. The outcome was never good. This makes it real hard to trust Joseph and church history. The revision is easy to verify by doing a side by side comparison of the Book of Commandments and the D&C. I believe even the Lord scolded Joseph for often giving in to others and not listening to Him. I found that pattern all throughout his history.

To directly answer your question, I believe Joseph's later revelations are apocryphal, some things right and some things wrong. For me, I find that going back to just using the Bible and Book of Mormon best and maybe what the Lord wanted all along.

Claymore

[ampeterlin]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

So, this would seem to imply that his revelations, at least those post-BoM, as published in our D&C are spurious. Thoughts on this?

Lumping all the revelations into a spurious category is probably not a good idea. David did say, the Book of Commandments was correct. But why should we just take his word for things?

Of course we all know the best way to read scripture is to ask the Holy Ghost for specific guidance and that will be the only way to discern.

[Claymore]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

So, this would seem to imply that his revelations, at least those post-BoM, as published in our D&C are spurious. Thoughts on this?

Lumping all the revelations into a spurious category is probably not a good idea. David did say, the Book of Commandments was correct. But why should we just take his word for things?

Of course we all know the best way to read scripture is to ask the Holy Ghost for specific guidance and that will be the only way to discern.

Agreed. I'd also like to say the Lord gave us the Bible and Book of Mormon for the setting aside of all false beliefs and doctrines. In it is the fullness of His gospel, meaning nothing is missing. You'll never go wrong by following its precepts.

Just look at this forum and all the various topics of discussion. Many would be set aside and never entertained if we adhered to those two books. Yet, many go diving looking for the most obscure quotes by former leaders over the most obscure and strange doctrines. Unfortunately, many regard their words as scripture, which may or may not have been given by the Holy Spirit and are just commentary. All it does is give us more understanding of what their beliefs were (ie philosophies of men mingled with scripture).

I'm starting to believe that is why the Lord didn't want Joseph to publish his revelations. Just look at the result. The early church took lightly the Book of Mormon and started chasing revelation for which the Lord condemned them. Well, they got their revelations and many may not have been from the Lord. Again, just look at the results- they speak for themselves. The Lord didn't battle for His people, they were kicked from place to place just like the apostate Nephites.

In my opinion, the Book of Mormon was the whole point of the "restoration" and not just to kick off everything that came after. Satan did a great job muddying the waters of the restoration.

Claymore

[larsenb]

I get a feeling that David Whitmer was getting carried away with a sense of his own importance. He was one of the three witnesses - he wasn’t going to allow there to be any further revelation which didn’t involve him and his false sectarian ideas. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ are NOT one and the same thing. The New Testament tells us the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:17-18 whereas the Spirit of Christ is given to every human Moroni 7:16 Maybe he missed that part along with the rest of the sectarian world. He also wasn’t going to allow the Lord to clarify the full and correct name of the Church of Christ. He simply had no clue and no vision as to what the full Restoration entailed. Things of which David’s little mind had not even conceived.

Moroni 7 talks about the light of Christ, not His Spirit. What about the sacrament where we are asking to receive the Spirit of the Son? What are your thoughts?

Claymore

Edit- the case for feelings of self importance could easily be made for Joseph. Again, the Lord said Joseph's role was to be the translator of the plates and an elder in the church and that was it. Everything else he took upon himself.

So, this would seem to imply that his revelations, at least those post-BoM, as published in our D&C are spurious. Thoughts on this?

During the printing stage of the Book of Mormon, I read a story where Joseph received a revelation which ended up being wrong. Joseph then went to the Lord to find out what happened and was told that some revelation is from God, some from man, and some from the devil. My world then changed. Couple that with stories where Joseph was told explicitly from the Lord one thing, where there was no room for negotiation, and then Joseph being talked into doing the opposite by his close circle. The revelation was then revised adding in a loophole to condone their actions. The outcome was never good. This makes it real hard to trust Joseph and church history. The revision is easy to verify by doing a side by side comparison of the Book of Commandments and the D&C. I believe even the Lord scolded Joseph for often giving in to others and not listening to Him. I found that pattern all throughout his history.

To directly answer your question, I believe Joseph's later revelations are apocryphal, some things right and some things wrong. For me, I find that going back to just using the Bible and Book of Mormon best and maybe what the Lord wanted all along.

Claymore

Thanks for the clarification, though citations for your claims would bolster your case.

Lots of luck with that stance. I think you'll need it.

[larsenb]

Parley P. Pratt described the revelation (D&C 50) he was a witness to that Joseph received in March 31 in response to asking the Lord for direction in how to deal with the extreme 'spiritual' manifestations a number of converts were exhibiting during the early days of Kirtland, Ohio. This was after the printing of the Book of Mormon.

Pratt said: "Each sentence was uttered slowly and very distinctly, and with a pause between each, sufficiently long for it to be recorded, by an ordinary writer, in long hand . . . .. There was never any hesitation, reviewing, or reading back, in order to keep the run of the subject."

I'm not aware that any of his earlier or subsequent revelations that were witnessed by others, were received and recorded in any different manner. Much in keeping with his 'translation' of the BofM.

For me, its an astonishing position to think the Lord just used JS to translate the BofM and then essentially dropped him as His spokesperson for going on to re-establish His Church in these latter days. Makes absolutely no sense when you consider the entire JS narrative and the other things he accomplished.