LDS Freedom Forum

The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men [and women] from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly.

The experiments began in July 1961, in the basement of Linsly-Chittenden Hall at Yale University, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to explain the psychology of genocide and answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?" The experiment was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results.

Wear a mask, get the vaccine, do it or you're hurting people. Do you want them to die?

Apostasy refers to Church members who: 1, repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders;

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:29 am I too had "obedience" beaten into me as a missionary. For example we were not allowed to drink dark colored drinks, like coke or dr pepper. Interestingly, in Peru their caffenated drinks are the opposite from the US. So Sprite/7Up had caffeine and we could only drink those.

The rationale (or legend) was that a missionary was poisoned once because it was hidden in the dark drink.

My next mission president reversed this. He told us we couldn't drink caffeine anymore.

Same thing with soccer (futbol) and basketball. My first MP forbid soccer, the second swapped it to forbid basketball. It was all strange!

That said, I do believe we must learn to obey before we can learn to lead or disobey. Stupid rules like the above are not pertinent to salvation nor our physical wellbeing. They were there to teach us to obey.

Children are taught the same. We often give them silly chores so they can learn to obey. Once we have mastered obedience, we can then begin to master leadership and discernment. We must understand obedience so we can empathize, or as the Scriptures put it, "succor", with those we later ask to obey us.

George Washington made a great General because he understood first what its like to follow.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience to God. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life and teach us to obey the devil.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:58 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

Yep. But how did we get here? Obedience. If the church system hadn’t been set up this was more members would have opposed, but they didn’t. They are compliant solely because they were asked to by their “priesthood leaders”.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 10:08 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:58 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

Yep. But how did we get here? Obedience. If the church system hadn’t been set up this was more members would have opposed, but they didn’t. They are compliant solely because they were asked to by their “priesthood leaders”.

I don't believe the church was set up this way. People followed Joseph because they could not deny the truth. They didn't follow because he said, "obey me". He "taught correct principles and let them govern themselves".

What we have now is a decades long cultural shift where obeying authority is the doctrine, not the doctrine itself. A real God given leader is irresistible to believers. Now we've put the cart before the horse. Our leaders hardly ever say anything worth following. No miracles, no signs, no courage. Just "obey me!".

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 10:06 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience to God. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life and teach us to obey the devil.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

Very much agree.

My only lament is the LDS church has set up and promoted a system that invalidates objections based upon church hierarchy and "keys" of authority. I call this the Leadership Dilemma. Your options are quite limited when it comes to disagreeing with a church leader. 1. You can change your opinion and agree 2. You can compromise 3. Not agree and you become the apostate if you continue the behavior of speaking out, even if you are correct, for the church leaders speak for God and cannot be lead astray.

latterdayloco wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 11:27 am That movie is great. I recommend The Experimenter to everyone.

I accept all callings because my logic tells me that even if the call not inspired, I gain humility by serving in the Lord’s church and blessings for doing so with a thankful and submissive heart. Not that I do it for the blessings but rather to praise the Lord.

Maybe I’m dumb, but it makes sense to me and I’ve had great experiences going about it this way so far.

NewEliza wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 12:49 pm I’ve also never turned down a calling because I haven’t had a reason to. I’m happy to be inconvenienced to be a volunteer.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am Question:
Have you ever seen or heard of Stanley Milgram's experiment about obedience to authority?

If so, I'd love to have a discussion and hear your thoughts. If not you should look into it, this is a great movie I watched about it:
https://youtu.be/sngGqBOLWaIis

Here's a brief summary of the experiment:

The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men [and women] from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly.

The experiments began in July 1961, in the basement of Linsly-Chittenden Hall at Yale University, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to explain the psychology of genocide and answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?" The experiment was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results.

There are many applications for this in the world we currently live in (from the government, school systems, and religions to name a few). Seeing as how we all mostly agree about the "pandemic" this last year it is fairly obvious that obedience, or "compliance", was encouraged and even mandated. The method behind Milgram's study was used but in reverse. For example:

Wear a mask, get the vaccine, do it or you're hurting people. Do you want them to die?

Instead of the participant trying to avoid inflicting pain but still complying with authority, they have combined the two. Now you have to obey authority OR ELSE you're hurting them. The results are the same, most people did it, many without a second thought. This tactic is much more compelling to the "testee" than Milgram's original study because they feel a moral obligation to obey.

The big eye-opener about this is not the government, having obvious corruption, it is the LDS church. How many times have you been asked to do something you didn't want to, serious or not, and they used their "authority" to lead you into compliance? It is the culture of the church to not turn down a calling, but sometimes you should. It is the culture and also the policy of the church that you do not disagree with any church leader, and it is literally in the handbook via a first presidency message:

Apostasy refers to Church members who: 1, repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders;

This may sound fine to the average church member who believes that the prophet won't lead the church astray or that the church is true and cannot teach false doctrine. But that's simply a lie, for more on that visit my thread titled "Follow the Prophet":
viewtopic.php?p=1134496#p1134496

Nelson has said repeatedly that he will not lead the church astray, here is one example where he refers to Wilford Woodruff's statement about being removed if he did:
https://youtu.be/6BavQ7i-vh0

The leadership of the church claims that they are imperfect, fallible men and that you should listen to the Spirit to make your decisions... then they make the above statements. This is called gaslighting, they make you feel like you are sovereign while actually remaining compliant with their policy.

An interesting thought I had while creating this, I've heard many church leaders ask us to pray to know that what they say is true because they know it's true; however, Moroni encourages us to pray to know if these things are NOT true. I know, it's a little nit-picky, but an interesting thought.

I would also add my personal experience serving a mission for the church, if there was a single word that I remember from my mission it is obedience. Exact obedience specifically. I would not doubt that I heard that phrase more times than the name of Christ. They teach it under the guise of "obedience brings blessings", I can recall a few different stories shared by my mission president (and others) about young men and women who were struggling, not happy, lacking in testimony, they hit rock bottom and decided to be exactly obedient. Shortly thereafter their countenances were changed and they were some of the best missionaries he ever had. It is beaten into missionaries... follow the rules, follow the prophet, be obedient, exact obedience, obedience brings blessings. We were asked to read the handbook every single day as if it were scripture.

My mission president also rewarded "snitching", especially if it was device-related. Sound familiar? Yeah, we saw the same mentality with masks. People are so blinded by wanting to appeal to an authority they are not satisfied with being compliant themselves they need everyone around them to be compliant as well. Why is this significant? A French talk show later replicated Milgram's study but instead had a live audience coaxing the participant to continue administering shocks, the results increased to over 80% of the participants going all the way. That's peer pressure, and it has a real effect.

This is the same concept that follows the phrase "the greater good" or "good global citizen". They (all evil people) will try to convince you that you are doing the right thing by following them, you don't need to know exactly why. But just like the experiment, your blind compliance with authority is based on a lie.

I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

So, we see that what the church is teaching is a damning lie, one that strips the individual of their proper agency and spiritual awareness. The tactic they are using is the same that Milgram's experiment showcases and has lead to mass genocide by willing participants.

We need to make our own decisions, 2 Nephi 28: 31...

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I feel this is of the utmost importance to each of us now and in the near future. DO NOT casually obey someone simply because they hold a position or are seemingly above you, this applies to every single aspect of your life. Having the influence of the Spirit to guide you is both empowering and necessary for what lies ahead.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts you may have about this, Godbless!

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:52 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am Question:
Have you ever seen or heard of Stanley Milgram's experiment about obedience to authority?

If so, I'd love to have a discussion and hear your thoughts. If not you should look into it, this is a great movie I watched about it:
https://youtu.be/sngGqBOLWaIis

Here's a brief summary of the experiment:

The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men [and women] from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly.

The experiments began in July 1961, in the basement of Linsly-Chittenden Hall at Yale University, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to explain the psychology of genocide and answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?" The experiment was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results.

There are many applications for this in the world we currently live in (from the government, school systems, and religions to name a few). Seeing as how we all mostly agree about the "pandemic" this last year it is fairly obvious that obedience, or "compliance", was encouraged and even mandated. The method behind Milgram's study was used but in reverse. For example:

Wear a mask, get the vaccine, do it or you're hurting people. Do you want them to die?

Instead of the participant trying to avoid inflicting pain but still complying with authority, they have combined the two. Now you have to obey authority OR ELSE you're hurting them. The results are the same, most people did it, many without a second thought. This tactic is much more compelling to the "testee" than Milgram's original study because they feel a moral obligation to obey.

The big eye-opener about this is not the government, having obvious corruption, it is the LDS church. How many times have you been asked to do something you didn't want to, serious or not, and they used their "authority" to lead you into compliance? It is the culture of the church to not turn down a calling, but sometimes you should. It is the culture and also the policy of the church that you do not disagree with any church leader, and it is literally in the handbook via a first presidency message:

Apostasy refers to Church members who: 1, repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders;

This may sound fine to the average church member who believes that the prophet won't lead the church astray or that the church is true and cannot teach false doctrine. But that's simply a lie, for more on that visit my thread titled "Follow the Prophet":
viewtopic.php?p=1134496#p1134496

Nelson has said repeatedly that he will not lead the church astray, here is one example where he refers to Wilford Woodruff's statement about being removed if he did:
https://youtu.be/6BavQ7i-vh0

The leadership of the church claims that they are imperfect, fallible men and that you should listen to the Spirit to make your decisions... then they make the above statements. This is called gaslighting, they make you feel like you are sovereign while actually remaining compliant with their policy.

An interesting thought I had while creating this, I've heard many church leaders ask us to pray to know that what they say is true because they know it's true; however, Moroni encourages us to pray to know if these things are NOT true. I know, it's a little nit-picky, but an interesting thought.

I would also add my personal experience serving a mission for the church, if there was a single word that I remember from my mission it is obedience. Exact obedience specifically. I would not doubt that I heard that phrase more times than the name of Christ. They teach it under the guise of "obedience brings blessings", I can recall a few different stories shared by my mission president (and others) about young men and women who were struggling, not happy, lacking in testimony, they hit rock bottom and decided to be exactly obedient. Shortly thereafter their countenances were changed and they were some of the best missionaries he ever had. It is beaten into missionaries... follow the rules, follow the prophet, be obedient, exact obedience, obedience brings blessings. We were asked to read the handbook every single day as if it were scripture.

My mission president also rewarded "snitching", especially if it was device-related. Sound familiar? Yeah, we saw the same mentality with masks. People are so blinded by wanting to appeal to an authority they are not satisfied with being compliant themselves they need everyone around them to be compliant as well. Why is this significant? A French talk show later replicated Milgram's study but instead had a live audience coaxing the participant to continue administering shocks, the results increased to over 80% of the participants going all the way. That's peer pressure, and it has a real effect.

This is the same concept that follows the phrase "the greater good" or "good global citizen". They (all evil people) will try to convince you that you are doing the right thing by following them, you don't need to know exactly why. But just like the experiment, your blind compliance with authority is based on a lie.

I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

So, we see that what the church is teaching is a damning lie, one that strips the individual of their proper agency and spiritual awareness. The tactic they are using is the same that Milgram's experiment showcases and has lead to mass genocide by willing participants.

We need to make our own decisions, 2 Nephi 28: 31...

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I feel this is of the utmost importance to each of us now and in the near future. DO NOT casually obey someone simply because they hold a position or are seemingly above you, this applies to every single aspect of your life. Having the influence of the Spirit to guide you is both empowering and necessary for what lies ahead.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts you may have about this, Godbless!

For a social psychology class I took a few years ago, I read a book called The Lucifer Effect. It blew my mind. And it was one of the main reasons why I refused to wear a mask!

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:54 pm

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:52 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am Question:
Have you ever seen or heard of Stanley Milgram's experiment about obedience to authority?

If so, I'd love to have a discussion and hear your thoughts. If not you should look into it, this is a great movie I watched about it:
https://youtu.be/sngGqBOLWaIis

Here's a brief summary of the experiment:

The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men [and women] from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly.

The experiments began in July 1961, in the basement of Linsly-Chittenden Hall at Yale University, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to explain the psychology of genocide and answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?" The experiment was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results.

There are many applications for this in the world we currently live in (from the government, school systems, and religions to name a few). Seeing as how we all mostly agree about the "pandemic" this last year it is fairly obvious that obedience, or "compliance", was encouraged and even mandated. The method behind Milgram's study was used but in reverse. For example:

Wear a mask, get the vaccine, do it or you're hurting people. Do you want them to die?

Instead of the participant trying to avoid inflicting pain but still complying with authority, they have combined the two. Now you have to obey authority OR ELSE you're hurting them. The results are the same, most people did it, many without a second thought. This tactic is much more compelling to the "testee" than Milgram's original study because they feel a moral obligation to obey.

The big eye-opener about this is not the government, having obvious corruption, it is the LDS church. How many times have you been asked to do something you didn't want to, serious or not, and they used their "authority" to lead you into compliance? It is the culture of the church to not turn down a calling, but sometimes you should. It is the culture and also the policy of the church that you do not disagree with any church leader, and it is literally in the handbook via a first presidency message:

Apostasy refers to Church members who: 1, repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders;

This may sound fine to the average church member who believes that the prophet won't lead the church astray or that the church is true and cannot teach false doctrine. But that's simply a lie, for more on that visit my thread titled "Follow the Prophet":
viewtopic.php?p=1134496#p1134496

Nelson has said repeatedly that he will not lead the church astray, here is one example where he refers to Wilford Woodruff's statement about being removed if he did:
https://youtu.be/6BavQ7i-vh0

The leadership of the church claims that they are imperfect, fallible men and that you should listen to the Spirit to make your decisions... then they make the above statements. This is called gaslighting, they make you feel like you are sovereign while actually remaining compliant with their policy.

An interesting thought I had while creating this, I've heard many church leaders ask us to pray to know that what they say is true because they know it's true; however, Moroni encourages us to pray to know if these things are NOT true. I know, it's a little nit-picky, but an interesting thought.

I would also add my personal experience serving a mission for the church, if there was a single word that I remember from my mission it is obedience. Exact obedience specifically. I would not doubt that I heard that phrase more times than the name of Christ. They teach it under the guise of "obedience brings blessings", I can recall a few different stories shared by my mission president (and others) about young men and women who were struggling, not happy, lacking in testimony, they hit rock bottom and decided to be exactly obedient. Shortly thereafter their countenances were changed and they were some of the best missionaries he ever had. It is beaten into missionaries... follow the rules, follow the prophet, be obedient, exact obedience, obedience brings blessings. We were asked to read the handbook every single day as if it were scripture.

My mission president also rewarded "snitching", especially if it was device-related. Sound familiar? Yeah, we saw the same mentality with masks. People are so blinded by wanting to appeal to an authority they are not satisfied with being compliant themselves they need everyone around them to be compliant as well. Why is this significant? A French talk show later replicated Milgram's study but instead had a live audience coaxing the participant to continue administering shocks, the results increased to over 80% of the participants going all the way. That's peer pressure, and it has a real effect.

This is the same concept that follows the phrase "the greater good" or "good global citizen". They (all evil people) will try to convince you that you are doing the right thing by following them, you don't need to know exactly why. But just like the experiment, your blind compliance with authority is based on a lie.

I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

So, we see that what the church is teaching is a damning lie, one that strips the individual of their proper agency and spiritual awareness. The tactic they are using is the same that Milgram's experiment showcases and has lead to mass genocide by willing participants.

We need to make our own decisions, 2 Nephi 28: 31...

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I feel this is of the utmost importance to each of us now and in the near future. DO NOT casually obey someone simply because they hold a position or are seemingly above you, this applies to every single aspect of your life. Having the influence of the Spirit to guide you is both empowering and necessary for what lies ahead.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts you may have about this, Godbless!

For a social psychology class I took a few years ago, I read a book called The Lucifer Effect. It blew my mind. And it was one of the main reasons why I refused to wear a mask!

Interesting, I’ve never heard of that book. What’s the main takeaway that influenced you? Meaning was it a study or just an opinion piece? Because it sounds like I’d enjoy it

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 5:01 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:54 pm

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:52 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am Question:
Have you ever seen or heard of Stanley Milgram's experiment about obedience to authority?

If so, I'd love to have a discussion and hear your thoughts. If not you should look into it, this is a great movie I watched about it:
https://youtu.be/sngGqBOLWaIis

Here's a brief summary of the experiment:


There are many applications for this in the world we currently live in (from the government, school systems, and religions to name a few). Seeing as how we all mostly agree about the "pandemic" this last year it is fairly obvious that obedience, or "compliance", was encouraged and even mandated. The method behind Milgram's study was used but in reverse. For example:

Instead of the participant trying to avoid inflicting pain but still complying with authority, they have combined the two. Now you have to obey authority OR ELSE you're hurting them. The results are the same, most people did it, many without a second thought. This tactic is much more compelling to the "testee" than Milgram's original study because they feel a moral obligation to obey.

The big eye-opener about this is not the government, having obvious corruption, it is the LDS church. How many times have you been asked to do something you didn't want to, serious or not, and they used their "authority" to lead you into compliance? It is the culture of the church to not turn down a calling, but sometimes you should. It is the culture and also the policy of the church that you do not disagree with any church leader, and it is literally in the handbook via a first presidency message:

This may sound fine to the average church member who believes that the prophet won't lead the church astray or that the church is true and cannot teach false doctrine. But that's simply a lie, for more on that visit my thread titled "Follow the Prophet":
viewtopic.php?p=1134496#p1134496

Nelson has said repeatedly that he will not lead the church astray, here is one example where he refers to Wilford Woodruff's statement about being removed if he did:
https://youtu.be/6BavQ7i-vh0

The leadership of the church claims that they are imperfect, fallible men and that you should listen to the Spirit to make your decisions... then they make the above statements. This is called gaslighting, they make you feel like you are sovereign while actually remaining compliant with their policy.

An interesting thought I had while creating this, I've heard many church leaders ask us to pray to know that what they say is true because they know it's true; however, Moroni encourages us to pray to know if these things are NOT true. I know, it's a little nit-picky, but an interesting thought.

I would also add my personal experience serving a mission for the church, if there was a single word that I remember from my mission it is obedience. Exact obedience specifically. I would not doubt that I heard that phrase more times than the name of Christ. They teach it under the guise of "obedience brings blessings", I can recall a few different stories shared by my mission president (and others) about young men and women who were struggling, not happy, lacking in testimony, they hit rock bottom and decided to be exactly obedient. Shortly thereafter their countenances were changed and they were some of the best missionaries he ever had. It is beaten into missionaries... follow the rules, follow the prophet, be obedient, exact obedience, obedience brings blessings. We were asked to read the handbook every single day as if it were scripture.

My mission president also rewarded "snitching", especially if it was device-related. Sound familiar? Yeah, we saw the same mentality with masks. People are so blinded by wanting to appeal to an authority they are not satisfied with being compliant themselves they need everyone around them to be compliant as well. Why is this significant? A French talk show later replicated Milgram's study but instead had a live audience coaxing the participant to continue administering shocks, the results increased to over 80% of the participants going all the way. That's peer pressure, and it has a real effect.

This is the same concept that follows the phrase "the greater good" or "good global citizen". They (all evil people) will try to convince you that you are doing the right thing by following them, you don't need to know exactly why. But just like the experiment, your blind compliance with authority is based on a lie.

I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

So, we see that what the church is teaching is a damning lie, one that strips the individual of their proper agency and spiritual awareness. The tactic they are using is the same that Milgram's experiment showcases and has lead to mass genocide by willing participants.

We need to make our own decisions, 2 Nephi 28: 31...

I feel this is of the utmost importance to each of us now and in the near future. DO NOT casually obey someone simply because they hold a position or are seemingly above you, this applies to every single aspect of your life. Having the influence of the Spirit to guide you is both empowering and necessary for what lies ahead.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts you may have about this, Godbless!

For a social psychology class I took a few years ago, I read a book called The Lucifer Effect. It blew my mind. And it was one of the main reasons why I refused to wear a mask!

Interesting, I’ve never heard of that book. What’s the main takeaway that influenced you? Meaning was it a study or just an opinion piece? Because it sounds like I’d enjoy it

From Wikipedia:

The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil is a 2007 book which includes professor Philip Zimbardo's first detailed, written account of the events surrounding the 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment (SPE) — a prison simulation study which had to be discontinued after only six days due to several distressing outcomes and mental breaks of the participants. The book includes over 30 years of subsequent research into the psychological and social factors which result in immoral acts being committed by otherwise moral people. It also examines the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib in 2003, which has similarities to the Stanford experiment. The title takes its name from the pious story of the favored angel of God, Lucifer, his fall from grace, and his assumption of the role of Satan, the embodiment of evil.[1][2] The book was briefly on The New York Times Non-Fiction Best Seller[3] and won the American Psychological Association's 2008 William James Book Award.[4]


He talks about the different factors that play into turning good people evil-- anonymity (including face coverings), mob mentality, obedience to power or having power... just to name a few. It really was an excellent book. He's been studying this stuff longer than I've been alive. There's a great YouTube video presentation he did. I'll see if I can find it.

It does sound like something you'd like. Lol

In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either "AP”s “Zone Leaders” and District Leaders” or "regular missionaries" by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with the mission president serving as the superintendent. Several "regular missionaries" left mid-experiment, and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports on experimental results claimed that missionaries quickly embraced their assigned roles, with some leaders enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some regular missionaries to psychological torture, while many missionaries passively accepted psychological abuse and, by the leaders' requests, actively harassed other missionaries who tried to stop it.

In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either "guards" or "prisoners" by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with Zimbardo himself serving as the superintendent. Several "prisoners" left mid-experiment, and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports on experimental results claimed that students quickly embraced their assigned roles, with some guards enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some prisoners to psychological torture, while many prisoners passively accepted psychological abuse and, by the officers' requests, actively harassed other prisoners who tried to stop it.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 5:11 pm

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 5:01 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:54 pm

TruthSeeker77 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 4:52 pm

For a social psychology class I took a few years ago, I read a book called The Lucifer Effect. It blew my mind. And it was one of the main reasons why I refused to wear a mask!

Interesting, I’ve never heard of that book. What’s the main takeaway that influenced you? Meaning was it a study or just an opinion piece? Because it sounds like I’d enjoy it

From Wikipedia:

The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil is a 2007 book which includes professor Philip Zimbardo's first detailed, written account of the events surrounding the 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment (SPE) — a prison simulation study which had to be discontinued after only six days due to several distressing outcomes and mental breaks of the participants. The book includes over 30 years of subsequent research into the psychological and social factors which result in immoral acts being committed by otherwise moral people. It also examines the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib in 2003, which has similarities to the Stanford experiment. The title takes its name from the pious story of the favored angel of God, Lucifer, his fall from grace, and his assumption of the role of Satan, the embodiment of evil.[1][2] The book was briefly on The New York Times Non-Fiction Best Seller[3] and won the American Psychological Association's 2008 William James Book Award.[4]


He talks about the different factors that play into turning good people evil-- anonymity (including face coverings), mob mentality, obedience to power or having power... just to name a few. It really was an excellent book. He's been studying this stuff longer than I've been alive. There's a great YouTube video presentation he did. I'll see if I can find it.

It does sound like something you'd like. Lol

Thanks! Haha, I literally read the prison study this morning I made a uh... a few changes...

My version:

In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either "AP”s “Zone Leaders” and District Leaders” or "regular missionaries" by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with the mission president serving as the superintendent. Several "regular missionaries" left mid-experiment, and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports on experimental results claimed that missionaries quickly embraced their assigned roles, with some leaders enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some regular missionaries to psychological torture, while many missionaries passively accepted psychological abuse and, by the leaders' requests, actively harassed other missionaries who tried to stop it.

The original:

In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either "guards" or "prisoners" by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with Zimbardo himself serving as the superintendent. Several "prisoners" left mid-experiment, and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports on experimental results claimed that students quickly embraced their assigned roles, with some guards enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some prisoners to psychological torture, while many prisoners passively accepted psychological abuse and, by the officers' requests, actively harassed other prisoners who tried to stop it.

I do this not completely out of jest but to really look at the similarities.