LDS Freedom Forum

larsenb wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:22 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am , , , , , I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

, , , ,

Good quote. I've probably even copied it to one of my files. But was it ever published in an earlier source? Seems odd that it would only arise in a Millenniial Star of 1852.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:50 pm

~ternal-tummim wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:32 pm The masses are just sheep. That’s why Jesus said: they need good shepherds. The ones who will tell them to press good buttons.

I think it goes beyond that, people need to be able to think for themselves. To utilize the agency they fought for, which brings accountability.

The “shepherds” are fallible no matter how good, so we must follow the direction of the Spirit when listening to their counsel.

Too many people don’t want to be accountable though, they simply want to be told where to go and driven like sheep.

~ternal-tummim wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 4:16 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:50 pm

~ternal-tummim wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:32 pm The masses are just sheep. That’s why Jesus said: they need good shepherds. The ones who will tell them to press good buttons.

I think it goes beyond that, people need to be able to think for themselves. To utilize the agency they fought for, which brings accountability.

The “shepherds” are fallible no matter how good, so we must follow the direction of the Spirit when listening to their counsel.

Too many people don’t want to be accountable though, they simply want to be told where to go and driven like sheep.

Well we can think that people should be like that (I do too), but with some cursory observation you will see people are, in fact not like that. With some cursory reflection you will further conclude that people will never be like that.

The masses be how they be. It is what it is.

There is no clear pathway to change human nature en masse. Any project to try will be fraught with dangers and probably evil.

Read this to understand:

https://dailystormer.su/ruling-elite-co ... irus-hoax/

You are doubtless familiar with the bell curve.



This is the reality:

80-90% of people are basically incapable of truly independent thought and truly critical thinking.

10-15% of people are capable of doing some critical thinking, with guidance.

0%-5% of people, let’s call it about 1%, are intelligent enough and independent enough to generate their own thoughts and ideas.

Now, with all that said, Mormonism is a high-IQ religion. It has historically attracted high-IQ people. It has a theological message that is really very high-level and has vast unplumbed depths/heights, and the brighter intelligences can sense that and it resonates with them. Because of this nature as a naturally high-IQ religion, it would be possible to take social and institutional and cultural steps to build the church into the high-agency, high-independence society you dream of and long for. I think.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 28th, 2021, 8:04 pm As someone that works for the church, I see this often. I think church leaders painted themselves into a corner, because many members worship them. It goes way beyond "respect for the calling", this being the most common reasoning for their bizarre, worshipful behaviors. But the leaders know they are flawed men/woman just like all of us. I always hate when we have meetings and an apostle walks in the room and everyone stands and is hushed (some almost trebling). It's bizarre and feels cultist. I have noticed lately that apostles now arrive extremely early to meetings, and I think it is because of the worshipful attitude of many of the employees. I don't know how anyone would enjoy being worshipped like that. It feels like idol worship. It also bothers me that they don't get up in conference and say stop worshiping us! Instead they just arrive early and it takes the standing in a hushed tone off the table in a very passive way. I believe it is a sin the way many members treat church leaders. It's not healthy. And if church leaders enjoy this type of adulation, they honestly shouldn't be in that position. It not just that. Church employees will drop everything to fill request for GA's. Often I don't even think the GA's know it's happening. Many members have gotten too comfortable with letting church leaders do all thinking for them. I went to drop our kids off at primary and everyone was wearing masks. I asked why, and explained the data shows kids are not at risk and that masks cause other issues with children. Mask are also not effective. They all looked at me like I was the devil and said "well, we choose to follow the prophet". Too many have become mindless cogs in the machine. It's sad to see. Many have become sheep in the truest sense of the word. Sorry for the long post.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 28th, 2021, 8:56 pm It could very well be intentional. I could also see some of the apostles/leaders wanting to address it but being cudgeled into not saying anything about it or using the "it's to protect the flock" idea. Either way it's not good. The Correlation Group also seems to play a huge part in much of the decision making and the public view of the church. I do know that some things in the church are oversold and importance given to thing that aren't that important or not even doctrinal. As we've learned with covid, they sure like virtue signals. I also know that leaders and church historians skew the history to paint a very specific picture. I don't know if it's for the control aspect or if it's done out of fear. Maybe both.

11 And also it is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation, and to all the pure in heart—

12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

16 You know, brethren, that a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm in the time of a storm, by being kept workways with the wind and the waves.

17 Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 28th, 2021, 8:56 pm It could very well be intentional. I could also see some of the apostles/leaders wanting to address it but being cudgeled into not saying anything about it or using the "it's to protect the flock" idea. Either way it's not good. The Correlation Group also seems to play a huge part in much of the decision making and the public view of the church. I do know that some things in the church are oversold and importance given to thing that aren't that important or not even doctrinal. As we've learned with covid, they sure like virtue signals. I also know that leaders and church historians skew the history to paint a very specific picture. I don't know if it's for the control aspect or if it's done out of fear. Maybe both.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 29th, 2021, 8:43 am All I know is everything seems to need their approval for things such as curriculum, media, messaging, GC talks, etc. They often work with the Kirton and McConkie firm on legal issues. I think it's one of the reasons the churches messaging is kind of bland (more so than it use to be). Its safe, both legally and socially speaking. I mean, if you look up Elder Nelson's talk from April 1985 on abortion, I don't think you'd hear a talk like that now. The messaging now is much softer and more vague at times.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 29th, 2021, 6:12 pm Those were good talks. But also, that's pretty much all that is done is talk. I've never seen much action in the way of helping prolife groups. It would be nice if they cut checks to Live Action (like they do with NAACP and other groups). Also, if you look at the subject of abortion, church leaders spoke out against it often (especially in the 70's and 80's) you can search the numbers on "Corpus of LDS General Conference Talks, 1851-2020". Now it's mentioned once every couple years. Which is helpful, but it feels like a genocide occurring everyday against the most defenseless would be spoken against often.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 29th, 2021, 8:43 am All I know is everything seems to need their approval for things such as curriculum, media, messaging, GC talks, etc. They often work with the Kirton and McConkie firm on legal issues. I think it's one of the reasons the churches messaging is kind of bland (more so than it use to be). Its safe, both legally and socially speaking. I mean, if you look up Elder Nelson's talk from April 1985 on abortion, I don't think you'd hear a talk like that now. The messaging now is much softer and more vague at times.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 28th, 2021, 8:04 pm As someone that works for the church, I see this often. I think church leaders painted themselves into a corner, because many members worship them. It goes way beyond "respect for the calling", this being the most common reasoning for their bizarre, worshipful behaviors. But the leaders know they are flawed men/woman just like all of us. I always hate when we have meetings and an apostle walks in the room and everyone stands and is hushed (some almost trembling). It's bizarre and feels cultist. I have noticed lately that apostles now arrive extremely early to meetings, and I think it is because of the worshipful attitude of many of the employees. I don't know how anyone would enjoy being worshipped like that. It feels like idol worship. It also bothers me that they don't get up in conference and say stop worshiping us! Instead they just arrive early and it takes the standing in a hushed tone off the table in a very passive way. I believe it is a sin the way many members treat church leaders. It's not healthy. And if church leaders enjoy this type of adulation, they honestly shouldn't be in that position. It's not just that. Church employees will drop everything to fill request for GA's. Often I don't even think the GA's know it's happening. Many members have gotten too comfortable with letting church leaders do all thinking for them. I went to drop our kids off at primary and everyone was wearing masks. I asked why, and explained the data shows kids are not at risk and that masks cause other issues with children. Mask are also not effective. They all looked at me like I was the devil and said "well, we choose to follow the prophet". Too many have become mindless cogs in the machine. It's sad to see. Many have become sheep in the truest sense of the word. Sorry for the long post.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 29th, 2021, 8:46 pm I've worked there for many years and while overall I really enjoy what I do there and have gotten to work on really amazing projects, I have also worked on some extremely difficult content. I once laughed when a coworker told me when I first started, "I hope you have a really strong testimony". I thought he was kidding, but soon after realized he wasn't. For the most part I do believe church leaders and employees are trying to do their best, but there is stuff (especially dealing with our history) that has been really challenging to work on. With Correlation, I think they became bigger during prop 8. They have been around for a while though (even back with Barbera Smith and the ERA controversy, maybe earlier). I believe it started as a group to get the messaging to the public consistent, which makes sense. It seems to have grown into something much more. I don't work in Correlation but do work with them. On a different note over the last 4 or so years I've seen what's happening at BYU starting to happen in the department I work for. Things like CRT and a strange acceptance of very liberal, if not leftist views and even using the language of the left is being promoted. It's really disheartening.

Down_the_rabbithole wrote: ↑October 29th, 2021, 8:46 pm I've worked there for many years and while overall I really enjoy what I do there and have gotten to work on really amazing projects, I have also worked on some extremely difficult content. I once laughed when a coworker told me when I first started, "I hope you have a really strong testimony". I thought he was kidding, but soon after realized he wasn't. For the most part I do believe church leaders and employees are trying to do their best, but there is stuff (especially dealing with our history) that has been really challenging to work on. With Correlation, I think they became bigger during prop 8. They have been around for a while though (even back with Barbera Smith and the ERA controversy, maybe earlier). I believe it started as a group to get the messaging to the public consistent, which makes sense. It seems to have grown into something much more. I don't work in Correlation but do work with them. On a different note over the last 4 or so years I've seen what's happening at BYU starting to happen in the department I work for. Things like CRT and a strange acceptance of very liberal, if not leftist views and even using the language of the left is being promoted. It's really disheartening.

zhang_daqian wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 3:50 pm I am trying to learn more about the LDS culture and church sermons and ministry. I'm not sure how I feel about some of family joining. I can't make heads or tales of what kind of organization they are because I've heard all sorts of crazy claims but also heard good things. Their talks I think are good and wholesome that I heard. But today alot is changing so I don't know.

If they anti-abortion I like that but just in name or truly are they? Do they teach CRT or no? I hate CRT but I don't want the younger ones in family to learn it if they go to LDS services. I did hear they did a good job on the Olympics but Romney character is a slippery one.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 4:30 pm

zhang_daqian wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 3:50 pm I am trying to learn more about the LDS culture and church sermons and ministry. I'm not sure how I feel about some of family joining. I can't make heads or tales of what kind of organization they are because I've heard all sorts of crazy claims but also heard good things. Their talks I think are good and wholesome that I heard. But today alot is changing so I don't know.

If they anti-abortion I like that but just in name or truly are they? Do they teach CRT or no? I hate CRT but I don't want the younger ones in family to learn it if they go to LDS services. I did hear they did a good job on the Olympics but Romney character is a slippery one.

I wouldn’t dive into the culture much LOL.

But yes, they are becoming increasingly friendly to some of those ideas.

I see many truths taught in the church, but there are many falsehoods as well. The Spirit is necessary to discern.

zhang_daqian wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 4:39 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 4:30 pm

zhang_daqian wrote: ↑November 8th, 2021, 3:50 pm I am trying to learn more about the LDS culture and church sermons and ministry. I'm not sure how I feel about some of family joining. I can't make heads or tales of what kind of organization they are because I've heard all sorts of crazy claims but also heard good things. Their talks I think are good and wholesome that I heard. But today alot is changing so I don't know.

If they anti-abortion I like that but just in name or truly are they? Do they teach CRT or no? I hate CRT but I don't want the younger ones in family to learn it if they go to LDS services. I did hear they did a good job on the Olympics but Romney character is a slippery one.

I wouldn’t dive into the culture much LOL.

But yes, they are becoming increasingly friendly to some of those ideas.

I see many truths taught in the church, but there are many falsehoods as well. The Spirit is necessary to discern.

Oh, i'd like to know about the culture. Does any one talk about the culture on this message board?

You mean the the holy ghost that was promised on day of Pentecost? Is that the spirit you mean? The proselytes told me yes. I believe the Christians but they all fight with each other. Do LDS fight? You are Christian but you're some type of different Christians.