LDS Freedom Forum

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:58 am

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:56 am Shutting down churches, requiring masks, vaccines, and social distancing is a grave assault on our lives, liberties and salvation. This is not a joke nor is it meant to teach obedience. It is meant to subvert our dignity and way of life.

Everyone should oppose this with all of their strength.

And let's not forget about Common Consent. This is an eternal principle as well. We must make our objections heard when we are led by the Spirit.

Yep. But how did we get here? Obedience. If the church system hadn’t been set up this way more members would have opposed, but they didn’t. They are compliant solely because they were asked to by their “priesthood leaders”.

And now, that Romney kid is proof that leadership was less than truthful. Quite a bit less. Godsends do not kill or do harm.

Blindly trusting the snake oil salesman over proven science makes one wonder if they did not get what they deserve.

Even though satan and his minions at fakebook, twit, youtube, are doing their very best to erase the truth, it is still out there. Anyone seeking can find. So the morons that trust Mutt Romney, including his family, have been shown the truth firsthand. But the Q15 tell the same story. Completely diametrically opposed to science. If miracles had been revealed it would be one thing, but the godsend actually only revealed death, pain, and heart ache. Hardly the definition of godsend.

I don’t think it’s necessarily obedience to authority. But I think there’s something to submission to authority. I think a better and more interesting case can be made there. Maybe something I’ll look into more...

I cannot obey any organization with "authority" that actively builds up secret combinations and unites with the great and abominable church of the devil.

The branches will overcome the roots. God CANNOT lie. It will happen/has already happened. The watchtowers were never built. The servants have failed and the vineyard will be trampled upon. It will only get worse from here on out. Only until the destruction happens, will a new servant be appointed to set things in order.

Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

What will your friend do now that the CDC recommends vaccinated people wear masks? There are also rumors of coming lockdowns. How do your friends feel about these changes? I am curious because most never respond when questions such as these are asked.

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:53 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

What will your friend do now that the CDC recommends vaccinated people wear masks? There are also rumors of coming lockdowns. How do your friends feel about these changes? I am curious because most never respond when questions such as these are asked.

Haven’t asked him. I’m sure he’ll do it, they’re just following the CDC guidelines.

I have another friend who may be coming home from his foreign mission a few months early because he won’t get the shot... I sent him the church news article 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from him since.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:06 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:53 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

What will your friend do now that the CDC recommends vaccinated people wear masks? There are also rumors of coming lockdowns. How do your friends feel about these changes? I am curious because most never respond when questions such as these are asked.

Haven’t asked him. I’m sure he’ll do it, they’re just following the CDC guidelines.

I have another friend who may be coming home from his foreign mission a few months early because he won’t get the shot... I sent him the church news article 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from him since.

Wow. I will pray for your friends. This is such an unfortunate situation.

We have a young lady who lives with us who is currently waiting to receive her mission call. She has decided not to take the shot (yay!) so she'll stay in the US. However, she is afraid that she will be pressured at some point to take the shot even if she serves domestically. We told her if she is, she is to simply come home. She is an orphan and has no family in the US. She has nowhere to go except back to our home. We told her she's welcomed back and that we will be proud of her even if she does not finish her mission if it means not getting the shot. This has been a relief to her. We have talked about how this situation will not be the same for others. She's afraid and praying earnestly that she will not be called to do a SM mission. I have to be careful in what I say to her. I pray she has the courage to stand up to her beliefs while away.

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:04 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:06 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:53 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

What will your friend do now that the CDC recommends vaccinated people wear masks? There are also rumors of coming lockdowns. How do your friends feel about these changes? I am curious because most never respond when questions such as these are asked.

Haven’t asked him. I’m sure he’ll do it, they’re just following the CDC guidelines.

I have another friend who may be coming home from his foreign mission a few months early because he won’t get the shot... I sent him the church news article 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from him since.

Wow. I will pray for your friends. This is such an unfortunate situation.

We have a young lady who lives with us who is currently waiting to receive her mission call. She has decided not to take the shot (yay!) so she'll stay in the US. However, she is afraid that she will be pressured at some point to take the shot even if she serves domestically. We told her if she is, she is to simply come home. She is an orphan and has no family in the US. She has nowhere to go except back to our home. We told her she's welcomed back and that we will be proud of her even if she does not finish her mission if it means not getting the shot. This has been a relief to her. We have talked about how this situation will not be the same for others. She's afraid and praying earnestly that she will not be called to do a SM mission. I have to be careful in what I say to her. I pray she has the courage to stand up to her beliefs while away.

Much thanks, it’s hard. The pain comes when they disagree so strongly with what the church is doing but there is seemingly no other option than to obey.

My heart goes out to her, I hope she has the courage as well. The quote I shared from that friend, he was called and is serving stateside. The pressure is everywhere, from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a way she will avoid it.

When considering if she should go on a mission, or when she’s there if she should stay, ask her this question: Can you look someone in the eyes and ask them to sustain the church leaders? That is what confirmed my decision leave my mission, I couldn’t do the one thing a mission was about. If I can’t answer the baptismal interview questions then I sure as hell won’t be trying to convince anyone else to.

Follow the Spirit, in a world of darkness it is impossible to see with our eyes.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:28 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:04 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:06 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:53 pm

What will your friend do now that the CDC recommends vaccinated people wear masks? There are also rumors of coming lockdowns. How do your friends feel about these changes? I am curious because most never respond when questions such as these are asked.

Haven’t asked him. I’m sure he’ll do it, they’re just following the CDC guidelines.

I have another friend who may be coming home from his foreign mission a few months early because he won’t get the shot... I sent him the church news article 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from him since.

Wow. I will pray for your friends. This is such an unfortunate situation.

We have a young lady who lives with us who is currently waiting to receive her mission call. She has decided not to take the shot (yay!) so she'll stay in the US. However, she is afraid that she will be pressured at some point to take the shot even if she serves domestically. We told her if she is, she is to simply come home. She is an orphan and has no family in the US. She has nowhere to go except back to our home. We told her she's welcomed back and that we will be proud of her even if she does not finish her mission if it means not getting the shot. This has been a relief to her. We have talked about how this situation will not be the same for others. She's afraid and praying earnestly that she will not be called to do a SM mission. I have to be careful in what I say to her. I pray she has the courage to stand up to her beliefs while away.

Much thanks, it’s hard. The pain comes when they disagree so strongly with what the church is doing but there is seemingly no other option than to obey.

My heart goes out to her, I hope she has the courage as well. The quote I shared from that friend, he was called and is serving stateside. The pressure is everywhere, from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a way she will avoid it.

When considering if she should go on a mission, or when she’s there if she should stay, ask her this question: Can you look someone in the eyes and ask them to sustain the church leaders? That is what confirmed my decision leave my mission, I couldn’t do the one thing a mission was about. If I can’t answer the baptismal interview questions then I sure as hell won’t be trying to convince anyone else to.

Follow the Spirit, in a world of darkness it is impossible to see with our eyes.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I will share with her your suggestion.

It's so maddening that so many wonderful young men and women even have to consider taking this shot. It's so unfair for the Church to ask them to even contemplate their desire to serve the Lord vs. taking an experimental drug simply because we are asked to. There has been no prophecy. This is not a saving ordinance. She has prayed as to what she is to do and the Spirit has confirmed to her that she is not to take the shot.

We live in those times where our convictions will be tested. I pray she stands firm and advocates for her beliefs.

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:38 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:28 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:04 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Haven’t asked him. I’m sure he’ll do it, they’re just following the CDC guidelines.

I have another friend who may be coming home from his foreign mission a few months early because he won’t get the shot... I sent him the church news article 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from him since.

Wow. I will pray for your friends. This is such an unfortunate situation.

We have a young lady who lives with us who is currently waiting to receive her mission call. She has decided not to take the shot (yay!) so she'll stay in the US. However, she is afraid that she will be pressured at some point to take the shot even if she serves domestically. We told her if she is, she is to simply come home. She is an orphan and has no family in the US. She has nowhere to go except back to our home. We told her she's welcomed back and that we will be proud of her even if she does not finish her mission if it means not getting the shot. This has been a relief to her. We have talked about how this situation will not be the same for others. She's afraid and praying earnestly that she will not be called to do a SM mission. I have to be careful in what I say to her. I pray she has the courage to stand up to her beliefs while away.

Much thanks, it’s hard. The pain comes when they disagree so strongly with what the church is doing but there is seemingly no other option than to obey.

My heart goes out to her, I hope she has the courage as well. The quote I shared from that friend, he was called and is serving stateside. The pressure is everywhere, from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a way she will avoid it.

When considering if she should go on a mission, or when she’s there if she should stay, ask her this question: Can you look someone in the eyes and ask them to sustain the church leaders? That is what confirmed my decision leave my mission, I couldn’t do the one thing a mission was about. If I can’t answer the baptismal interview questions then I sure as hell won’t be trying to convince anyone else to.

Follow the Spirit, in a world of darkness it is impossible to see with our eyes.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I will share with her your suggestion.

It's so maddening that so many wonderful young men and women even have to consider taking this shot. It's so unfair for the Church to ask them to even contemplate their desire to serve the Lord vs. taking an experimental drug simply because we are asked to. There has been no prophecy. This is not a saving ordinance. She has prayed as to what she is to do and the Spirit has confirmed to her that she is not to take the shot.

We live in those times where our convictions will be tested. I pray she stands firm and advocates for her beliefs.

more than we know.

It very much upsets me that missionaries are asked (strongly) to get it because it’s absolutely not informed consent. Like the email that was shared on the forum by someone a while ago, the church has doctors encouraging them to get it and tossing aside the adverse reactions like it’s inconceivable.

I don’t have any bitterness towards the church as a whole, but when I see my friends being taken advantage of... I don’t have many nice words come to mind. In my blatantly honest opinion, the mission field is a terrible place teaching values that will harm the young men and women both physically and Spiritually. But that is due to my limited personal experience, I still say do as the Spirit directs.

There are days I wished I served a “regular” mission, but I know that what I experienced was needed for my progression. I learned some amazing things, met some amazing people, wouldn’t trade my experience for anything.

If she ever needs someone to talk to, I promise I’m nicer than I probably sound on here I’ve got a telegram group with a couple others who left their missions because of covid rules. Maybe not the environment she needs now, but the invite stands. There are decisions to be made soon that will continue to isolate those who are pure in heart.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:55 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:38 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:28 pm

Althea wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 10:04 pm

Wow. I will pray for your friends. This is such an unfortunate situation.

We have a young lady who lives with us who is currently waiting to receive her mission call. She has decided not to take the shot (yay!) so she'll stay in the US. However, she is afraid that she will be pressured at some point to take the shot even if she serves domestically. We told her if she is, she is to simply come home. She is an orphan and has no family in the US. She has nowhere to go except back to our home. We told her she's welcomed back and that we will be proud of her even if she does not finish her mission if it means not getting the shot. This has been a relief to her. We have talked about how this situation will not be the same for others. She's afraid and praying earnestly that she will not be called to do a SM mission. I have to be careful in what I say to her. I pray she has the courage to stand up to her beliefs while away.

Much thanks, it’s hard. The pain comes when they disagree so strongly with what the church is doing but there is seemingly no other option than to obey.

My heart goes out to her, I hope she has the courage as well. The quote I shared from that friend, he was called and is serving stateside. The pressure is everywhere, from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a way she will avoid it.

When considering if she should go on a mission, or when she’s there if she should stay, ask her this question: Can you look someone in the eyes and ask them to sustain the church leaders? That is what confirmed my decision leave my mission, I couldn’t do the one thing a mission was about. If I can’t answer the baptismal interview questions then I sure as hell won’t be trying to convince anyone else to.

Follow the Spirit, in a world of darkness it is impossible to see with our eyes.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I will share with her your suggestion.

It's so maddening that so many wonderful young men and women even have to consider taking this shot. It's so unfair for the Church to ask them to even contemplate their desire to serve the Lord vs. taking an experimental drug simply because we are asked to. There has been no prophecy. This is not a saving ordinance. She has prayed as to what she is to do and the Spirit has confirmed to her that she is not to take the shot.

We live in those times where our convictions will be tested. I pray she stands firm and advocates for her beliefs.

more than we know.

It very much upsets me that missionaries are asked (strongly) to get it because it’s absolutely not informed consent. Like the email that was shared on the forum by someone a while ago, the church has doctors encouraging them to get it and tossing aside the adverse reactions like it’s inconceivable.

I don’t have any bitterness towards the church as a whole, but when I see my friends being taken advantage of... I don’t have many nice words come to mind. In my blatantly honest opinion, the mission field is a terrible place teaching values that will harm the young men and women both physically and Spiritually. But that is due to my limited personal experience, I still say do as the Spirit directs.

There are days I wished I served a “regular” mission, but I know that what I experienced was needed for my progression. I learned some amazing things, met some amazing people, wouldn’t trade my experience for anything.

If she ever needs someone to talk to, I promise I’m nicer than I probably sound on here I’ve got a telegram group with a couple others who left their missions because of covid rules. Maybe not the environment she needs now, but the invite stands. There are decisions to be made soon that will continue to isolate those who are pure in heart.

Thank you Gad! I appreciate the invitation. I will share with her that an invitation has been extended in case she needs it. I am trying to be careful not to influence her decision. This mission has the potential to be an amazing opportunity for her spiritual and temporal growth.

I, like you, feel the same for these young people. Many of them are young women in their missions who I have known since they were teens. I cannot believe they have chosen the path that led them to take the shot. These young girls were so innocent, truly spiritual. I am so worried for their futures. I pray no adverse reactions come their way. I feel that many have been indeed swindled. I also worry for their marriage prospects. Only the Lord can sort out this mess.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

They're going to harass you MORE if you get the vaccine, not less...as we're now discovering.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:45 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

They're going to harass you MORE if you get the vaccine, not less...as we're now discovering.

I haven’t been paying attention to anything this week, is there a thread that explains this?? Are the vaxxed finally shedding???

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 2:06 pm

TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:45 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

I got it just so I don't have to wear a mask and everyone can leave me alone about it.

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

They're going to harass you MORE if you get the vaccine, not less...as we're now discovering.

I haven’t been paying attention to anything this week, is there a thread that explains this?? Are the vaxxed finally shedding???

I'm referring to them now saying that the vaccinated now must be masked again. Just wait, they will require them to get boosters now too.

The harassment is just beginning for those who were deceived by the Mark of the Beast.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 2:12 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 2:06 pm

TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:45 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 8:33 pm Bumping this because I think it's interesting considering the missionary situation (serving a foreign mission requires the jab effective Aug 1st).

I've had more friends tell me they got the shot because they were tired of being harassed. This was one message:

The patriarchal system is totalitarian and dangerous.

They're going to harass you MORE if you get the vaccine, not less...as we're now discovering.

I haven’t been paying attention to anything this week, is there a thread that explains this?? Are the vaxxed finally shedding???

I'm referring to them now saying that the vaccinated now must be masked again. Just wait, they will require them to get boosters now too.

The harassment is just beginning for those who were deceived by the Mark of the Beast.

Ahhh gotcha.

The harassment won’t end because the goal isn’t safety, it’s power. Power over the hearts of men...

These experiments have popped into my mind the last few days as I’ve seen and talked with certain individuals. What’s happening is so blatant, most people know that it’s wrong. Yet they comply...

It confuses me, but then I remember the study I shared in this thread OP. We’ve been trained since birth to be obedient to authority.

This will only become more relevant...

Yes, GS, I am familiar with the study.

It’s unfortunate??

But actually, it’s just reality.

The great mass of people are sheep. That fact seems unlikely to change. They just are. They believe things like three scyscrapers got knocked down by two aeroplanes. They obey things like here kill these Hun dudes for us because reasons.

The masses are just sheep. That’s why Jesus said: they need good shepherds. The ones who will tell them to press good buttons.

~ternal-tummim wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:32 pm The masses are just sheep. That’s why Jesus said: they need good shepherds. The ones who will tell them to press good buttons.

I think it goes beyond that, people need to be able to think for themselves. To utilize the agency they fought for, which brings accountability.

The “shepherds” are fallible no matter how good, so we must follow the direction of the Spirit when listening to their counsel.

Too many people don’t want to be accountable though, they simply want to be told where to go and driven like sheep.

Brings up the old but misunderstood statement from the bible that obedience is better than sacrifice. This is also misunderstood or misused by the church in two ways.

First off it is an animal type sacrifice, not making sacrifices in our lives. Second, I read the whole interpretation was written after return from Babylon when the only sacrifices were in the tabernacle then temple.

Second, in Samuel's day, sacrifices in the tabernacle were required to be by the HP and assigned Levites. But, sacrifices elsewhere could be made by others, sort of like taking home sacrament. So, in reality when Samuel showed up late (because he was making money doing his annual trek of judging civil trials for fee) to the battle. Saul was actually ok performing the sacrifice vs. Samuel doing it. So, it wasn't him superseding his authority, it was at worst "not following the prophet".

Ironic given the "follow the prophet" matra on LDS FF lately.

speaking of sheep and shepherds. You know the end is near when it is not the wolves in sheep's clothing or the sheep in wolves clothing or the wolves in wolve's clothing, but the darn plain ole sheep you have to worry about.

And in the plandemic, the sheep really stand out, they don't hide it and they are aggressive. I guess the parables never talk about rabid sheep, only the occasional black or lost one.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 26th, 2021, 9:57 pm Brings up the old but misunderstood statement from the bible that obedience is better than sacrifice. This is also misunderstood or misused by the church in two ways.

Yep. Blind obedience to any single being is not the way of God. Which brings up my thoughts on the law of witnesses...

Christ does not expect us to follow Him blindly; We will know the truth of His words and direction as they are confirmed by the HG.

TrueFaith wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 9:29 am I too had "obedience" beaten into me as a missionary. For example we were not allowed to drink dark colored drinks, like coke or dr pepper. Interestingly, in Peru their caffenated drinks are the opposite from the US. So Sprite/7Up had caffeine and we could only drink those.

The rationale (or legend) was that a missionary was poisoned once because it was hidden in the dark drink.

My next mission president reversed this. He told us we couldn't drink caffeine anymore.

Same thing with soccer (futbol) and basketball. My first MP forbid soccer, the second swapped it to forbid basketball. It was all strange!

That said, I do believe we must learn to obey before we can learn to lead or disobey. Stupid rules like the above are not pertinent to salvation nor our physical wellbeing. They were there to teach us to obey.

Children are taught the same. We often give them silly chores so they can learn to obey. Once we have mastered obedience, we can then begin to master leadership and discernment. We must understand obedience so we can empathize, or as the Scriptures put it, "succor", with those we later ask to obey us.

George Washington made a great General because he understood first what its like to follow.

The primary reason MPs do this imo is at least two-fold:

1. It weeds out/identifies missionaries who are loyal to the old pres who might not like the new way of doing things, so the new pres can deal w/ them quickly. If he doesn't, they'll undermine his authority. So you take an old but cherished culture or legend of the mission, flip it on its head, and see who get their socks in a bunch about it. Then you dial the heat up on that person until they relent to your authority.

2. It creates culture instability, making the mission feel culturally lost as a whole, and therefore they look to him to "stabilize" them by telling them what to do. Since we often attach emotions to culture norms and use them to create social castes, people often find this very emotionally challenging and socially disorienting and this is the point. He's breaking the emotional attachment to the old pres and re-entraining people onto him through some mild cultural trauma, so they are loyal to him and not the old pres. This will cause them to assent to his authority more willingly.


This is often why CEO/management types will often do something similar in the corporate world, like when you get a new boss and he is very adamant about doing certain things that were normal operating procedure differently bc he is trying to get you to look to him for how to act instead of the old pattern of doing things. So you'll be dependent on him and it will appear to his/her superiors that he's a great leader since people look to him for answers and are very dependent on him. If he kept things how they were, everyone would already know what to do and no one would start entraining behaviour on him. So it's just a management tactic ultimately.

People bond through emotion, and typically more so through negative emotion, so the pres has to create some negative emotions to get the missionaries to "bond" to him and create a new social caste that is more amenable to his way of doing things. The corporate world and the LDS leadership are pulling from the same "play book" of social conditioning. Since most people (especially 18-20 yr old kids) aren't into corporate leadership techniques, they don't realize this is happening.

The missionary fields are like training grounds for up and coming GAs, so if they prove especially good at creating obedience, then they may get called up to be an area authority, etc. It's a way for the higher leadership to test the goods before they call someone to a national or global leadership position where the stakes are higher and to ensure that the MPs are obedient to their superiors too.

Obedience is definitely important, but obedience to Heaven is the only thing that can produce heavenly blessings. Obedience to man can only produce wordly blessings. If people want worldly blessings, then they should be obedient to worldly authority. If they want heavenly, then they must obey the Heavens.

The world is nearly always at odds w/ Heaven. This is why the scriptures say you cannot serve God and mammon- we must choose ultimately and we only have the space of this life to do so, w/o incurring negative impacts obviously.

people who have been taught to respect "authority," and have been taught that obedience is a virtue and that cooperating with "authority" is what makes us civilized, do not like to hear the truth, which is that truly evil people, with all their malice and hatred, pose far less of a threat to mankind than the basically good people who believe in "authority.”
Larken Rose, The Most Dangerous Superstition

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am , , , , , I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

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Good quote. I've probably even copied it to one of my files. But was it ever published in an earlier source? Seems odd that it would only arise in a Millenniial Star of 1852.

larsenb wrote: ↑October 27th, 2021, 12:22 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑June 11th, 2021, 8:31 am , , , , , I've shared this quote a few times, but Joseph was very outspoken against blind obedience, which is what the church is teaching today.

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

, , , ,

Good quote. I've probably even copied it to one of my files. But was it ever published in an earlier source? Seems odd that it would only arise in a Millenniial Star of 1852.

I believe it is been noted elsewhere on the forum, but most sources cite this as the editor of the paper (I forget his name), and is not attributed to JS. Still a great truth.