Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Thinker
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Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Thinker wrote: January 23rd, 2020, 4:02 pm Scriptures, that suggest avoiding truth and necessary growing pains, are not right, despite this being foundational to the Christianity inherited from Catholicism.
  • ”In this respect fundamentalism (dogma/unquestioned religious ideas) has demonic traits. It destroys the humble honesty of the search for truth...” -Paul Tillich
  • ”The foundation of all mental illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering...
    God enters through the wound.” -
    Carl Jung
Some dogmatic scripture that demands strict obedience to that dogma & more modern cultish shaming of anyone who questions immoral actions of authority can contribute to depression, anxiety and other problems. To those who feel the burden of this shame, loss of sense of identity, and loneliness, these Jung quotes may help:
  • ”Do not compare, do not measure. No other way is like yours. All other ways deceive & tempt you. You must fulfill the way that is in you.”
  • ”The world will ask you who you are, & if you don’t know, the world will tell you.”
  • ”Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.”
  • ”Be grateful for your difficulties & challenges, for they hold blessings. In fact... man needs difficulties. They are necessary for health, personal growth, individualism & self-actualization.”
We each have incredible potential! Jung calls this “individuation.” Part of the way God can help make weaknesses strengths is by humbling ourselves to see our weaknesses, to face pain or other unpleasant things - and with God/Logos, work through & transform them.

I haven’t read all he’s written, but much of what I have read from Carl Jung is incredibly inspiring. Of course there may be a few points of disagreement, as with all. But generally, Carl Jung has so much to offer!

This interview of Jung highlights a few things that stood out to me:
:03 When he recognized his own consciousness “I AM that I AM.”
:30 As we advance technologically, we desperately need more self awareness, psych-ology
:34 Live fully by looking forward, even when old.
https://youtu.be/xK2Uv-82z_M

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible." ― Carl Jung

True? I think partly, for people who are sensitively aware of others, but not so much for those lacking empathy. A lack of empathy may be the cause of loneliness for some.

“The outcome that loneliness increases self-centeredness was expected, but the data showing that self-centeredness also affected loneliness was a surprise...”
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/lonelin ... eservation

I imagine that a personality type (ie Extroverts/Sensers as opposed to introspective introverts/intuitive) can contribute to self-centeredness and then loneliness, cyclically. Maybe other factors such as childhood socialization & family functionality which set the stage for relationships, pride v humility, desire to learn/grow or refusal not to - all play parts.

Also, God set us up to be separate from Him so all feel necessary loneliness to motivate us to look to God over distractions. Carl Jung suggested there are 2 forms of suffering: meaningless and meaningful.
“Every psychic advance of man arises from the [meaningful] suffering of the soul.” -Carl Jung

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Interesting. Ascension requiring descending and this being a core part of our journey to be like Christ is something believed in some Mormon remnant groups.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Thinker wrote: May 29th, 2021, 3:52 pm
Thinker wrote: January 23rd, 2020, 4:02 pm Scriptures, that suggest avoiding truth and necessary growing pains, are not right, despite this being foundational to the Christianity inherited from Catholicism.
  • ”In this respect fundamentalism (dogma/unquestioned religious ideas) has demonic traits. It destroys the humble honesty of the search for truth...” -Paul Tillich
  • ”The foundation of all mental illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering...
    God enters through the wound.” -
    Carl Jung
Some dogmatic scripture that demands strict obedience to that dogma & more modern cultish shaming of anyone who questions immoral actions of authority can contribute to depression, anxiety and other problems. To those who feel the burden of this shame, loss of sense of identity, and loneliness, these Jung quotes may help:
  • ”Do not compare, do not measure. No other way is like yours. All other ways deceive & tempt you. You must fulfill the way that is in you.”
  • ”The world will ask you who you are, & if you don’t know, the world will tell you.”
  • ”Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.”
  • ”Be grateful for your difficulties & challenges, for they hold blessings. In fact... man needs difficulties. They are necessary for health, personal growth, individualism & self-actualization.”
We each have incredible potential! Jung calls this “individuation.” Part of the way God can help make weaknesses strengths is by humbling ourselves to see our weaknesses, to face pain or other unpleasant things - and with God/Logos, work through & transform them.

I haven’t read all he’s written, but much of what I have read from Carl Jung is incredibly inspiring. Of course there may be a few points of disagreement, as with all. But generally, Carl Jung has so much to offer!

This interview of Jung highlights a few things that stood out to me:
:03 When he recognized his own consciousness “I AM that I AM.”
:30 As we advance technologically, we desperately need more self awareness, psych-ology
:34 Live fully by looking forward, even when old.
https://youtu.be/xK2Uv-82z_M
Never seen him in interview like this before! What a beautiful soul!!! Wow

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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BuriedTartaria wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:28 pm Interesting. Ascension requiring descending and this being a core part of our journey to be like Christ is something believed in some Mormon remnant groups.
This is the heart of the gospel - actual repentance is not shameful but empowering!

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Jung offered some awesome insights into the meaning of Christ…

“Christ then dwells in the believer as the perfect man formed in the image of God.”

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Cruiserdude wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:35 pm Never seen him in interview like this before! What a beautiful soul!!! Wow
I’m glad you see it, I think so too.

He - or his writings - have helped me so much through my truth crisis with the church. He is definitely Fowler stage 5 or beyond & is able to see the good and bad of religion. He also harmonizes spirituality with psych-ology, which is rare because they’re usually like oil and water to most. And I like his humor…
Image

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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“Much of the evil in the world is due to the fact that man in general is hopelessly unconscious.” - Carl Jung

So, do you want to make the world a better place? Start within yourself in bringing what is in the shadows (subconscious) into the light of awareness!

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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“The highest, most decisive experience is to be alone with one's own self. You must be alone to find out what supports you, when you find that you can not support yourself. Only this experience can give you an indestructible foundation.” - Carl Jung

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TheChristian
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

All mankinds needs are met in "Jesus of Nazerath" alone........Calvary and the empty Tomb are the eternal proof of that.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Thinker wrote: December 29th, 2023, 7:58 pm “The highest, most decisive experience is to be alone with one's own self. You must be alone to find out what supports you, when you find that you can not support yourself. Only this experience can give you an indestructible foundation.” - Carl Jung
A-freaking-men to that comment👍👍

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Cruiserdude wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:17 am
Thinker wrote: December 29th, 2023, 7:58 pm “The highest, most decisive experience is to be alone with one's own self. You must be alone to find out what supports you, when you find that you can not support yourself. Only this experience can give you an indestructible foundation.” - Carl Jung
A-freaking-men to that comment👍👍
Glad you appreciated that quote.
Only trust in God is an indestructible foundation.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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TheChristian wrote: December 30th, 2023, 5:06 am "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

All mankinds needs are met in "Jesus of Nazerath" alone........Calvary and the empty Tomb are the eternal proof of that.
Jung highlighted the positives and negatives of Christianity as we adopted it traditionally from Constantine, Eusebius etc…

“There was need of a phantastic, indestructible optimism, and one far removed from all sense of reality, in order, for example, to discover in the shameful death of Christ really the highest salvation and the redemption of the world.”

“Their Christianity slumbers and has neglected to develop its myth further in the course of the centuries…a myth is dead if it no longer lives and grows.”

(Modern man = thinking man that doesn’t blindly go along w unethical traditions )
“The psychological interest of the present time is an indication that modern man expects something from the psyche which the outer world has not given him: doubtless something which our religion ought to contain, but no longer does contain, at least for modern man. For him the various forms of religion no longer appear today come from within, from the psyche; they seem more like items from the inventory and of the outside world.”

“In all this I see less a metaphysical mystery than the outburst of long pent-up negative feelings such as can frequently be attributed observed in people who strive for perfection. We can take it as certain that the author of John made every effort to practice what he preached to his fellow Christians. For this purpose he had to shut out all negative feelings, &, thanks to a helpful lack of self reflection, he was able to forget them. But though they disappeared from the conscious level, they continued to rankle beneath the surface, & in the course of time, spun an elaborate web of resentments & vengeful thoughts which then burst upon consciousness in the form of a revelation. From this there grew up a terrifying picture that blatantly contradicts all ideas of Christian humility, tolerance, love of your neighbor & your enemies, & makes nonsense of a loving father in heaven & rescuer of mankind.”

Jung… considered Christ to be a symbol of the self, albeit lacking the dark side. Thus he says: “Christ is our nearest analogy of the self and its meaning… Yet, although the attributes of Christ… undoubtedly mark him out as an embodiment of the self, looked at from the psychological angle he corresponds to only one half of the archetype. The other half appears in the Antichrist. The latter is just as much a manifestation of the self, except that he consists of its dark aspect… It is therefore well to examine carefully the psychological aspects of the individuation process in the light of Christian tradition, which can describe it for us with an exactness and impressiveness far surpassing our feeble attempts, even though the Christian image of the self — Christ — lacks the shadow that properly belongs to it”⁸.

"I believe I have learned that no one is allowed to avoid the mysteries of the Christian religion unpunished. I repeat: he whose heart has not been broken over the Lord Jesus Christ drags a pagan around in himself, who holds him back from the best." - Carl Jung, The Red Book
Jung saw Christ as the symbol of the self.

“Christians often ask why God does not speak to them, as he is believed to have done in former days. When I hear such questions, it always makes me think of the rabbi who asked how it could be that God often showed himself to people in the olden days whereas nowadays nobody ever sees him. The rabbi replied: "Nowadays there is no longer anybody who can bow low enough."
This answer hits the nail on the head. We are so captivated by and entangled in our subjective consciousness that we have forgotten the age-old fact that God speaks chiefly through dreams and visions. The Buddhist discards the world of unconscious fantasies as useless illusions; the Christian puts his Church and his Bible between himself and his unconscious; and the rational intellectual does not yet know that his consciousness is not his total psyche.”

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 10:54 am
TheChristian wrote: December 30th, 2023, 5:06 am "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

All mankinds needs are met in "Jesus of Nazerath" alone........Calvary and the empty Tomb are the eternal proof of that.
Jung highlighted the positives and negatives of Christianity as we adopted it traditionally from Constantine, Eusebius etc…

“There was need of a phantastic, indestructible optimism, and one far removed from all sense of reality, in order, for example, to discover in the shameful death of Christ really the highest salvation and the redemption of the world.”

“Their Christianity slumbers and has neglected to develop its myth further in the course of the centuries…a myth is dead if it no longer lives and grows.”

(Modern man = thinking man that doesn’t blindly go along w unethical traditions )
“The psychological interest of the present time is an indication that modern man expects something from the psyche which the outer world has not given him: doubtless something which our religion ought to contain, but no longer does contain, at least for modern man. For him the various forms of religion no longer appear today come from within, from the psyche; they seem more like items from the inventory and of the outside world.”

“In all this I see less a metaphysical mystery than the outburst of long pent-up negative feelings such as can frequently be attributed observed in people who strive for perfection. We can take it as certain that the author of John made every effort to practice what he preached to his fellow Christians. For this purpose he had to shut out all negative feelings, &, thanks to a helpful lack of self reflection, he was able to forget them. But though they disappeared from the conscious level, they continued to rankle beneath the surface, & in the course of time, spun an elaborate web of resentments & vengeful thoughts which then burst upon consciousness in the form of a revelation. From this there grew up a terrifying picture that blatantly contradicts all ideas of Christian humility, tolerance, love of your neighbor & your enemies, & makes nonsense of a loving father in heaven & rescuer of mankind.”

Jung… considered Christ to be a symbol of the self, albeit lacking the dark side. Thus he says: “Christ is our nearest analogy of the self and its meaning… Yet, although the attributes of Christ… undoubtedly mark him out as an embodiment of the self, looked at from the psychological angle he corresponds to only one half of the archetype. The other half appears in the Antichrist. The latter is just as much a manifestation of the self, except that he consists of its dark aspect… It is therefore well to examine carefully the psychological aspects of the individuation process in the light of Christian tradition, which can describe it for us with an exactness and impressiveness far surpassing our feeble attempts, even though the Christian image of the self — Christ — lacks the shadow that properly belongs to it”⁸.

"I believe I have learned that no one is allowed to avoid the mysteries of the Christian religion unpunished. I repeat: he whose heart has not been broken over the Lord Jesus Christ drags a pagan around in himself, who holds him back from the best." - Carl Jung, The Red Book
Jung saw Christ as the symbol of the self.

“Christians often ask why God does not speak to them, as he is believed to have done in former days. When I hear such questions, it always makes me think of the rabbi who asked how it could be that God often showed himself to people in the olden days whereas nowadays nobody ever sees him. The rabbi replied: "Nowadays there is no longer anybody who can bow low enough."
This answer hits the nail on the head. We are so captivated by and entangled in our subjective consciousness that we have forgotten the age-old fact that God speaks chiefly through dreams and visions. The Buddhist discards the world of unconscious fantasies as useless illusions; the Christian puts his Church and his Bible between himself and his unconscious; and the rational intellectual does not yet know that his consciousness is not his total psyche.”
Brilliant. In the Christian consciousness, Christ equals the good parts of the self. The bad parts of self merit “otherness” in the antichrist. The moralizing of parts of self ensure that those parts stay pushed down and out of sight even while they could be acting as the driver of behavior.

Isn’t it the acknowledging and embracing of one’s whole psyche that leads to compassion for and unity with others?

Carl Ruck says, in interview, that Carl Jung’s Red Book was a way for him to process his recent experience with psychedelics.

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TheChristian
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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TheChristian wrote: December 30th, 2023, 3:39 pm…Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
How is KILLING - especially human sacrifice - wisdom of God?
How is scapegoating - shifting blame to an innocent one - wisdom of God?
Satan or evil is essentially killing, deception & shifting blame - that’s the epitome of evil.

The notion that God demands killing/human sacrifice & scapegoating are lies Eusebius and Constantine got the masses to believe & sadly, many are still deceived by the same lies 1,700 years later.

Eusebius said:
“It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
&
“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”


Human sacrifice scapegoating is immoral.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on an another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.“ - CH

The purpose of life is primarily to learn - which brings us joy. How can we learn if we pretend to shift our moral lessons & avoid genuine repentance - in favor of human sacrifice scapegoating? In this way, Christianity -as currently corrupted - is damming - keeping people from their full potential.

How Facing Our “Shadow” Can Release Us From Scapegoating
When we scapegoat, we project onto others what we deny about ourselves.
“When we scapegoat, we project what is dark, shameful, and denied about ourselves onto others. This “shadow” side of our personality, as Carl Jung called it, represents hidden or wounded aspects of ourselves, “the thing a person has no wish to be...”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... apegoating

What is the real Christ about?
Radical personal responsibility - not the opposite!
As mentioned, Christ is not the great exception but the great example.

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Thinker
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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Pazooka wrote: December 30th, 2023, 11:56 am
Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 10:54 am Jung highlighted the positives and negatives of Christianity as we adopted it traditionally from Constantine, Eusebius etc…

“There was need of a phantastic, indestructible optimism, and one far removed from all sense of reality, in order, for example, to discover in the shameful death of Christ really the highest salvation and the redemption of the world.”

“Their Christianity slumbers and has neglected to develop its myth further in the course of the centuries…a myth is dead if it no longer lives and grows.”

(Modern man = thinking man that doesn’t blindly go along w unethical traditions )
“The psychological interest of the present time is an indication that modern man expects something from the psyche which the outer world has not given him: doubtless something which our religion ought to contain, but no longer does contain, at least for modern man. For him the various forms of religion no longer appear today come from within, from the psyche; they seem more like items from the inventory and of the outside world.”

“In all this I see less a metaphysical mystery than the outburst of long pent-up negative feelings such as can frequently be attributed observed in people who strive for perfection. We can take it as certain that the author of John made every effort to practice what he preached to his fellow Christians. For this purpose he had to shut out all negative feelings, &, thanks to a helpful lack of self reflection, he was able to forget them. But though they disappeared from the conscious level, they continued to rankle beneath the surface, & in the course of time, spun an elaborate web of resentments & vengeful thoughts which then burst upon consciousness in the form of a revelation. From this there grew up a terrifying picture that blatantly contradicts all ideas of Christian humility, tolerance, love of your neighbor & your enemies, & makes nonsense of a loving father in heaven & rescuer of mankind.”

Jung… considered Christ to be a symbol of the self, albeit lacking the dark side. Thus he says: “Christ is our nearest analogy of the self and its meaning… Yet, although the attributes of Christ… undoubtedly mark him out as an embodiment of the self, looked at from the psychological angle he corresponds to only one half of the archetype. The other half appears in the Antichrist. The latter is just as much a manifestation of the self, except that he consists of its dark aspect… It is therefore well to examine carefully the psychological aspects of the individuation process in the light of Christian tradition, which can describe it for us with an exactness and impressiveness far surpassing our feeble attempts, even though the Christian image of the self — Christ — lacks the shadow that properly belongs to it”⁸.

"I believe I have learned that no one is allowed to avoid the mysteries of the Christian religion unpunished. I repeat: he whose heart has not been broken over the Lord Jesus Christ drags a pagan around in himself, who holds him back from the best." - Carl Jung, The Red Book
Jung saw Christ as the symbol of the self.

“Christians often ask why God does not speak to them, as he is believed to have done in former days. When I hear such questions, it always makes me think of the rabbi who asked how it could be that God often showed himself to people in the olden days whereas nowadays nobody ever sees him. The rabbi replied: "Nowadays there is no longer anybody who can bow low enough."
This answer hits the nail on the head. We are so captivated by and entangled in our subjective consciousness that we have forgotten the age-old fact that God speaks chiefly through dreams and visions. The Buddhist discards the world of unconscious fantasies as useless illusions; the Christian puts his Church and his Bible between himself and his unconscious; and the rational intellectual does not yet know that his consciousness is not his total psyche.”
Brilliant. In the Christian consciousness, Christ equals the good parts of the self. The bad parts of self merit “otherness” in the antichrist. The moralizing of parts of self ensure that those parts stay pushed down and out of sight even while they could be acting as the driver of behavior.

Isn’t it the acknowledging and embracing of one’s whole psyche that leads to compassion for and unity with others?

Carl Ruck says, in interview, that Carl Jung’s Red Book was a way for him to process his recent experience with psychedelics.
Interesting.
Although I admire many ideas from Jung, I acknowledge some disagreements & how he seemed to explore the occult which I consider dangerous. But he did talk about the need of keeping grounded. Anyway it’s good to keep in mind when reading the red book.

So true that “acknowledging and embracing of one’s whole psyche that leads to compassion for and unity with others.” For most of my life, I stuffed down a lot, partly because I grew up being mocked for crying & felt unsafe to express certain emotions. I knew that deep inside, there was a shadow - subconscious elements that were causing problems in my life. I’m learning how to deal with them so I can live & love better. Ideally, a “true gospel/church” would help with this. But I, & others are mostly on our own - but actually maybe that aloneness is how God helps most. Then we are less likely to have false gods.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

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I was in deep thought onetime, there appeared before me a venerable looking spirit person, he looked old and wise, had a long beard and dressed in a manner like those of the Bible times.
He spoke ever so gently and quietly to me, he quoted scripture and explained them to me in such a educated and reasoned manner, his words, his voice and his appeal to logic and his visual appearance all give forth the impression of a very pious and gentle religious man that had great learning and spiritual wisdom at his command, indeed he spoke like the ancient philosophers......
All the while he sought with great but gentle earnest to convince me that Jesus was not the Son of God, that His death apon the Cross availed mankind nothing..........
Yet this Spirit being had no glory, no light around him, but was in a grey mist and enamating from him was a great drearyness and misery, that he himself was filled with said drearyness and misery.
I told Him "Jesus was the Son of God and that he died apon the cross for me and all mankind"
At this the Spirit person slowly but surely dissapeared from before my eyes, taking with him his drearyness and his misery............

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by nightlight »

Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 4:03 pm
TheChristian wrote: December 30th, 2023, 3:39 pm…Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
How is KILLING - especially human sacrifice - wisdom of God?
How is scapegoating - shifting blame to an innocent one - wisdom of God?
Satan or evil is essentially killing, deception & shifting blame - that’s the epitome of evil.

The notion that God demands killing/human sacrifice & scapegoating are lies Eusebius and Constantine got the masses to believe & sadly, many are still deceived by the same lies 1,700 years later.

Eusebius said:
“It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
&
“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”


Human sacrifice scapegoating is immoral.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on an another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.“ - CH

The purpose of life is primarily to learn - which brings us joy. How can we learn if we pretend to shift our moral lessons & avoid genuine repentance - in favor of human sacrifice scapegoating? In this way, Christianity -as currently corrupted - is damming - keeping people from their full potential.

How Facing Our “Shadow” Can Release Us From Scapegoating
When we scapegoat, we project onto others what we deny about ourselves.
“When we scapegoat, we project what is dark, shameful, and denied about ourselves onto others. This “shadow” side of our personality, as Carl Jung called it, represents hidden or wounded aspects of ourselves, “the thing a person has no wish to be...”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... apegoating

What is the real Christ about?
Radical personal responsibility - not the opposite!
As mentioned, Christ is not the great exception but the great example.
You don't understand Christianity

When I repent for a sin, part of the repentance is changing my behavior and understanding and making right the harm I did.

But in the end, it is not enough. Me changing and trying to make things right to the best of my ability is not enough. The wage of sin is Hell

This is where Jesus Christ Fills The Gap

Without Jesus of Nazareth....hell is what awaits, regardless of my feelings or corrections.

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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Thinker »

nightlight wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:14 pm
Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 4:03 pm
TheChristian wrote: December 30th, 2023, 3:39 pm…Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
How is KILLING - especially human sacrifice - wisdom of God?
How is scapegoating - shifting blame to an innocent one - wisdom of God?
Satan or evil is essentially killing, deception & shifting blame - that’s the epitome of evil.

The notion that God demands killing/human sacrifice & scapegoating are lies Eusebius and Constantine got the masses to believe & sadly, many are still deceived by the same lies 1,700 years later.

Eusebius said:
“It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
&
“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”


Human sacrifice scapegoating is immoral.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on an another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.“ - CH

The purpose of life is primarily to learn - which brings us joy. How can we learn if we pretend to shift our moral lessons & avoid genuine repentance - in favor of human sacrifice scapegoating? In this way, Christianity -as currently corrupted - is damming - keeping people from their full potential.

How Facing Our “Shadow” Can Release Us From Scapegoating
When we scapegoat, we project onto others what we deny about ourselves.
“When we scapegoat, we project what is dark, shameful, and denied about ourselves onto others. This “shadow” side of our personality, as Carl Jung called it, represents hidden or wounded aspects of ourselves, “the thing a person has no wish to be...”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... apegoating

What is the real Christ about?
Radical personal responsibility - not the opposite!
As mentioned, Christ is not the great exception but the great example.
You don't understand Christianity

When I repent for a sin, part of the repentance is changing my behavior and understanding and making right the harm I did.

But in the end, it is not enough. Me changing and trying to make things right to the best of my ability is not enough. The wage of sin is Hell

This is where Jesus Christ Fills The Gap

Without Jesus of Nazareth....hell is what awaits, regardless of my feelings or corrections.
What kind of God would demand human sacrifice scapegoating?

What kind of God would say that you changing and trying to make things right to the best of your ability is not enough?

What kind of God would mislead you into going towards hell (shifting blame to an innocent one) & avoiding responsibility required to get towards the truth-based Heaven?

Satan.

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nightlight
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Posts: 8407

Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by nightlight »

Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:52 pm
nightlight wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:14 pm
Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 4:03 pm
How is KILLING - especially human sacrifice - wisdom of God?
How is scapegoating - shifting blame to an innocent one - wisdom of God?
Satan or evil is essentially killing, deception & shifting blame - that’s the epitome of evil.

The notion that God demands killing/human sacrifice & scapegoating are lies Eusebius and Constantine got the masses to believe & sadly, many are still deceived by the same lies 1,700 years later.

Eusebius said:
“It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
&
“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”


Human sacrifice scapegoating is immoral.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on an another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.“ - CH

The purpose of life is primarily to learn - which brings us joy. How can we learn if we pretend to shift our moral lessons & avoid genuine repentance - in favor of human sacrifice scapegoating? In this way, Christianity -as currently corrupted - is damming - keeping people from their full potential.

How Facing Our “Shadow” Can Release Us From Scapegoating
When we scapegoat, we project onto others what we deny about ourselves.
“When we scapegoat, we project what is dark, shameful, and denied about ourselves onto others. This “shadow” side of our personality, as Carl Jung called it, represents hidden or wounded aspects of ourselves, “the thing a person has no wish to be...”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... apegoating

What is the real Christ about?
Radical personal responsibility - not the opposite!
As mentioned, Christ is not the great exception but the great example.
You don't understand Christianity

When I repent for a sin, part of the repentance is changing my behavior and understanding and making right the harm I did.

But in the end, it is not enough. Me changing and trying to make things right to the best of my ability is not enough. The wage of sin is Hell

This is where Jesus Christ Fills The Gap

Without Jesus of Nazareth....hell is what awaits, regardless of my feelings or corrections.
What kind of God would demand human sacrifice scapegoating?

What kind of God would say that you changing and trying to make things right to the best of your ability is not enough?

What kind of God would mislead you into going towards hell (shifting blame to an innocent one) & avoiding responsibility required to get towards the truth-based Heaven?

Satan.
Jesus is God. God came among us and sacrificed Himself for us

Any God who doesn't sacrifice for his people is not a God

Just as you'd sacrifice yourself for your children

You keep saying "avoiding responsibility" lol
When I do wrong I do everything I can to make it right. I do not avoid responsibility. But I understand the price of sin is Hell unless you submit to Christ in body/mind/soul. Then His grace is sufficient for us

Your super strong feelings/compensations are not enough.

You are not enough

This is why you hate and deny the Savior

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Pazooka
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Pazooka »

Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:52 pm
nightlight wrote: December 30th, 2023, 6:14 pm
Thinker wrote: December 30th, 2023, 4:03 pm
How is KILLING - especially human sacrifice - wisdom of God?
How is scapegoating - shifting blame to an innocent one - wisdom of God?
Satan or evil is essentially killing, deception & shifting blame - that’s the epitome of evil.

The notion that God demands killing/human sacrifice & scapegoating are lies Eusebius and Constantine got the masses to believe & sadly, many are still deceived by the same lies 1,700 years later.

Eusebius said:
“It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
&
“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”


Human sacrifice scapegoating is immoral.
“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on an another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.“ - CH

The purpose of life is primarily to learn - which brings us joy. How can we learn if we pretend to shift our moral lessons & avoid genuine repentance - in favor of human sacrifice scapegoating? In this way, Christianity -as currently corrupted - is damming - keeping people from their full potential.

How Facing Our “Shadow” Can Release Us From Scapegoating
When we scapegoat, we project onto others what we deny about ourselves.
“When we scapegoat, we project what is dark, shameful, and denied about ourselves onto others. This “shadow” side of our personality, as Carl Jung called it, represents hidden or wounded aspects of ourselves, “the thing a person has no wish to be...”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... apegoating

What is the real Christ about?
Radical personal responsibility - not the opposite!
As mentioned, Christ is not the great exception but the great example.
You don't understand Christianity

When I repent for a sin, part of the repentance is changing my behavior and understanding and making right the harm I did.

But in the end, it is not enough. Me changing and trying to make things right to the best of my ability is not enough. The wage of sin is Hell

This is where Jesus Christ Fills The Gap

Without Jesus of Nazareth....hell is what awaits, regardless of my feelings or corrections.
What kind of God would demand human sacrifice scapegoating?

What kind of God would say that you changing and trying to make things right to the best of your ability is not enough?

What kind of God would mislead you into going towards hell (shifting blame to an innocent one) & avoiding responsibility required to get towards the truth-based Heaven?

Satan.
Human sacrifice scapegoating…

The odd thing is that Christian tradition not only requires the human/god sacrifice for the salvation of its own adherents, but it also assigns to other traditions human sacrifice that may not have actually been practiced.

“Towards the end of the seventh century BC the young King Josiah tried to purge Jerusalem of the old fertility worship. Among his acts of desecration was the defilement of Topheth “which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might bum his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech” (II Kgs 23 :10). Jeremiah also speaks of this Molech cult when he says of the wayward people of Jerusalem: “They built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their Sons and daughters to Molech. . .“(Jer 32:35).

The commentators have drawn horrifying pictures for us of wicked men pushing little Sally and Rachel on to the funeral pyre outside Jerusalem’s south wall for the benefit of this pagan deity Molech. The clue to what was really intended, and indeed, what was probably written in the first editions of Kings and Jeremiah, is to be found in the corresponding passage in the Law. It appears in the context of regulations about sexual “perversions”, mainly concerning the degrees of family relationship within which the man may not have intercourse, mother, mother-in-law, sister, granddaughter, and soon. It goes on:

You shall not give your seed to devote it to Molech. You shall not commit sodomy. You shall not commit buggery, and neither shall any woman have sexual relations with a beast; it is perversion (Lev i8 :21—23).

The English versions fall into the same trap as did the early redactors of II Kings and Jeremiah. The Leviticus prohibition does not say “you shall not devote your children to Molech”, but, literally, “your seed”, that is, your spermatozoa. The word “seed” can of course be extended to mean offspring, but the context shows that the burden of the law is that you should not pollute the god-given semen, after which Yahweh was named, by misusing it either in the anus of another male or genitals of an animal, or, in some way, by using it in the worship of the Molech.”
~ John M Allegro (yet again), Dead Sea Scroll scholar and linguist

Sperm was used ritually by the fertility cults. What would have been counter-productive and counter-intuitive would have been for them to sacrifice their children. But when you want to drum up disdain for the foreign, it’s one of those time-honored tools to paint the “others” as child murderers.

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Thinker
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Thinker »

Human sacrifice scapegoating is the opposite of following Christ who took response-ability, rather than trying to pin it on someone else. It’s immorally pretending to push all your evil onto an innocent person as if that is even possible or intended of God! The way to GROW - which is the joyful purpose of life - is through taking response-ability. Pretending or wishing away our evils only hides them so they can wreak more havoc. The only reason why some believe this evil nonsense of human sacrifice scapegoating is because of peer pressure - “everyone’s doing it” and they fear if they don’t go along with it THEY will be shamed as they shame others for not going along with it. This attempt to put down or hurt people for not believing dogma goes back centuries when people were tortured and killed for not believing in Constantine’s anti-Christ “Christian” dogmas.

Torture of people for not believing Christianity…
Image

Estimates suggest about 3,000,000 people were killed for not believing in Christianity. “The crusades - the long series of wars fought between 1096 and 1492 under the direction of medieval popes..”
Image

Only something evil and nonsensical would require such torturous, murderous bullying to FORCE people to be believed. It’s said Satan’s plan is force.
Take a few seconds and THINK.
Why would God demand killing (human sacrifice) after commanding “Thou shalt not kill”?
Why would God kick us when we’re down & demand we be different from how God created us?
It is we, not God, who cannot accept our inherent human imperfection - so we go along with evil lies that tries to deny or shift responsibility of our evil. But all it does is create more evil.

Even “lower” court of law is more righteous than the evil lie of human sacrifice scapegoating of Jesus. Imagine someone raped everyone in your family then you, stole everything of value you had & killed most of your family. Then, another, innocent person said, “Let the murderer go - punish & lock me up instead.” If we applied the immoral insanity of human sacrifice scapegoating of Jesus to law - it would be hell where the innocent are jailed while murdering thieves go free. Evil.

I believe the real Christ is not Jesus’s last name but what he became & encouraged us to follow similarly. When we carry our cross, rather than pretend to shift it to someone else - then we become more Christlike.

Pick up your cross - JP https://youtu.be/asze0QzqTLA?feature=shared

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Jamescm
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Posts: 567

Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Jamescm »

Thinker wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:57 am
Cruiserdude wrote: February 6th, 2023, 3:35 pm Never seen him in interview like this before! What a beautiful soul!!! Wow
I’m glad you see it, I think so too.

He - or his writings - have helped me so much through my truth crisis with the church. He is definitely Fowler stage 5 or beyond & is able to see the good and bad of religion. He also harmonizes spirituality with psych-ology, which is rare because they’re usually like oil and water to most. And I like his humor…
Image
I thought that about twenty when I turned twenty. Then I thought that about thirty when I turned thirty. I have no doubt that at sixty, I'm going to think the same about sixty. Youth really is wasted on the young.

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Thinker
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Thinker »

Jamescm wrote: January 2nd, 2024, 11:17 am
Thinker wrote: February 7th, 2023, 11:57 am I’m glad you see it, I think so too.

He - or his writings - have helped me so much through my truth crisis with the church. He is definitely Fowler stage 5 or beyond & is able to see the good and bad of religion. He also harmonizes spirituality with psych-ology, which is rare because they’re usually like oil and water to most. And I like his humor…
Image
I thought that about twenty when I turned twenty. Then I thought that about thirty when I turned thirty. I have no doubt that at sixty, I'm going to think the same about sixty. Youth really is wasted on the young.
True - youth is wasted on the young, but it seems that the only way to get to the wisdom of the research phase, is to take the time and make the experiences.

I’ve been thinking about Erickson’s theory of life stages…
Image

Nobody gets through each stage perfectly, so it may be more spiral than linear development… we may need to go back to certain stages to relearn things better.

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Thinker
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Re: Human Potential - Carl Jung

Post by Thinker »

If more lds understood the following, IMO, they would suffer less from depression, anxiety etc…

“The shadow is merely somewhat inferior, primitive, unadapted & awkward; not wholly bad. It even contains qualities which would, in a way, vitalize & embellish human existence, but convention forbids!” -Carl Jung

How to stop wasting your life - Carl Jung as therapist
https://youtu.be/hqtzpED1y-I?feature=shared

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