Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

[Gadianton Slayer]

I agree with Packer and Oaks and I don't think they are asking you to lie.

My faith has always been wavering and fragile. Before I went into the MTC it was at a high point. After I went into the MTC it suddenly had a crisis.

But there was a meeting where they expected everyone to bear a testimony in a smallish group. This is a reasonable thing to demand of an ordained missionary who has agreed to share their witness with the world.

As the testimonies went around the room I was frantic to think of something I could say that was absolutely true no doubt in my mind.
Then it was my turn.

I bore a testimony. I did not lie. I spoke of how I knew without any doubt, that as our family has tried to live the gospel, it has produced good fruit and happiness. This was fo-real. I'd seen the gospel moderate my dad. He'd shared scriptures stories with us as bedtime stories and talked with us about them. Those were truly precious and helpful moments whether the gospel was literally true to me at that moment or not. I also knew that the love and peace in our home was in part due to the values which were shared and modeled in the home.

As I bore that testimony I felt the holy ghost in a way that I NEVER EVER had before. NEVER. His witness was added to mine and strengthened me. Before the end of the testimony I had already gained enough that I could (honestly) say more than I had planned, which was that I believed the holy ghost was real. The spirit in me about popped.

I found many more things which I could say confidently before I left the MTC, including conviction about the atonement of Christ which I was unable to share that day-but that's a different story. Sharing my HONEST convictions in a non academic atmosphere (giving the "right" answers in sunday school) was absolutely crucial for the testimony to solidify, for me to feel the holy ghost backing me up.

So in my opinion Packer and Oaks are correct, and some y'all are just desperate to find fault.

Desperate? Whatever floats your boat.

What you just described is a strengthening of things you’ve already learned, you didn’t learn that you believed those things at that moment and because you said it out loud. You had studied it out beforehand.

“Some of y’all” are trying to justify everything that the current church leaders say. They make mistakes, this happens to be one of them however intentional or unintentional it may be.

[Jonesy]

Did you run out of rational comments? I agree. Lying isn’t another way...

Do you testify to know his intent or not?

Do you run out of justifications?

Intent... I obviously have my own perspective of what he's said. I also have many other references as to how Oaks plays mental gymnastics or word plays with the saints to justify poor behavior by the brethren. His recent talk on the Consitution was anther example of playing both sides of an issue while justifying poor behavior.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean for this conversation to sour. He may play mental gymnastics or tries to play both sides. I just don’t think you, or anyone really, have proven that he’s asking us to lie, or of any malice. But I suppose I should have quit while ahead since I’ve said my piece on the matter.

It's a lie because he's telling us we should bear something TO Gain it. Meaning we don't have it yet, but hope to gain it simply by saying it. Essentially, the epitome of bearing false witness. Maybe you can write a letter and ask him if your theories of what you think he meant were correct?

Yeah, it probably is better to ask him than to preach that he’s lying. But I think I do have some clarifying words from President Packer:

It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”
Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27.)
It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase!
The prophet Ether “did prophecy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.
“And now, I, Moroni, … would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.” (Ether 12:5–6.)
To speak out is the test of your faith.


He Will Sustain You

If you will speak with humility and honest intent, the Lord will not leave you alone. The scriptures promise that. Consider this one:
“Therefore, verily I say unto you, lift up your voices unto this people; speak the thoughts that I shall [note that it is future tense] put into your hearts, and you shall not be confounded before men;
“For it shall [again note the future tense] be given you in the very hour, yea, in the very moment, what ye shall say.
“But a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall declare whatsoever thing ye declare in my name, in solemnity of heart, in the spirit of meekness, in all things.
“And I give unto you this promise, that inasmuch as ye do this the Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things whatsoever ye shall say.” (D&C 100:5–8.)
The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.
Can you not see that that is where testimony is hidden, protected perfectly from the insincere, from the intellectual, from the mere experimenter, the arrogant, the faithless, the proud? It will not come to them.
Bear testimony of the things that you hope are true, as an act of faith. It is something of an experiment, akin to the experiment that the prophet Alma proposed to his followers. We begin with faith—not with a perfect knowledge of things. That sermon in the thirty-second chapter of Alma is one of the greatest messages in holy writ, for it is addressed to the beginner, to the novice, to the humble seeker. And it holds a key to a witness of the truth.
The Spirit and testimony of Christ will come to you for the most part when, and remain with you only if, you share it. In that process is the very essense of the gospel.
Is not this a perfect demonstration of Christianity? You cannot find it, nor keep it, nor enlarge it unless and until you are willing to share it. It is by giving it away freely that it becomes yours.

[Thinker]

Ok, this is something I believed for a majority of my life and didn’t realize how backward it is until now. I remember a famous saying from Boyd K Packer in the 1980s, that “a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.” But you’re right. A testimony is a witness. You don’t testify until you have received the witness, by very definition of the words.

But it’s not really alive until you manifest it.
It’s true for testimonies and many other things because we are human.

Love is also found in expressing it.
Clarity is found in talking through thoughts.
Confidence is found in acting on it.

I remember at girls camp one year at testimony rock bearing my testimony (which I didn’t ever do) that I actually found that I had a lot to say that I didn’t know I was capable of. I didn’t lie, in fact I was more honest at that moment than I had ever been publicly about my faith and convictions. It was a moment that I found my testimony. So I can stand by what Packer said in your quote. It’s true.

I think I know what you mean. Women NEED to talk to sort out thoughts. Even the language part of our brains light up more than men. Women say many more words daily, on average, than men.

Still, testimony means to “present evidence” as if you KNOW. To state what you don’t know is like a scientists giving a speech, claiming a hypothesis is true before doing any experimenting. It’s premature, lying and misleading others to publicly state it.

[mudflap]

"Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them."

...you will then gain a witness of it.

no, he didn't say that at all. The "then" isn't there in that statement.

I studied many things for years and prayed about them sincerely as a missionary. I remember believing certain things were true after much study and prayer, and then going out to testify about my beliefs, but when I opened my mouth, in that exact moment, the Spirit witnessed to me that they were not merely beliefs - they were truths. It happened quite a few times.

Peter found that a testimony was actually just revelation. I have found the same, and that it actually CAN be given in the exact moment when you open your mouth. Study are prayer aren't necessarily a pre-requisite either, but they certainly help.

No. He's not lying.

As for the general membership of the church getting up in testimony meeting - yes, it's very sad what is generally accepted as "testimony" that is usually nothing more than travelogues and parroting.

Sure, I did the same thing on my mission and also since then. But we worked for it, we didn’t just want to believe things and go preach it. Faith without works is dead.

Explain Alma the younger then.

I think y'all are missing something very important here: a testimony is a gift from God. He can give it to you without study or works or any effort on your part if He chooses.

Also, (newsflash?): "opening your mouth without being 100% sure" is ALSO an act of faith.

just so we're clear.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Yeah, it probably is better to ask him than to preach that he’s lying. But I think I do have some clarifying words from President Packer:

From Packer:

“The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.”

Do you agree with him? Do I not have the faith, humility, and obedience necessary to have the Spirit with me?

[braingrunt]

I agree with Packer and Oaks and I don't think they are asking you to lie.
...

You are describing the process of gaining a witness through life's experiences. You had faith and a belief in that thing and received a "strengthening" witness by testifying of it. Oaks does talk about this process you went through, but he goes beyond that in mingling truth with lies.

Of course every testimony needs a starting point, whether it be hearing the word or living a portion of it. I think that if oaks were here to defend himself, he'd say he's sorry you think he wants someone to share a testimony that doesn't have ANY honest foundation elsewhere in their lives, but instead they should just lie. And he'd encourage you to continue to reject any such evil notion as you are now doing, but please tell people that he does not encourage lying.

I will go farther and meaner, to say that the devil put it into you to accuse the bretheren. They are not perfect but Oaks was trying to share a truth, which I testify to be true, which you YOURSELF also testify to be true: that sharing an honest testimony has a tendency to bring the spirit and grow the testimony, and in fact could even be the key to you realizing you actually have one. As it was so for me. So it was, so it is, so it is not to be hated on.

If more perfect words can relay this truth with less room for misunderstanding, that's great. Oaks may wish he had said them but YOU are the one who received his word not by the holy ghost.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Explain Alma the younger then.

Alma literally had a visitation from an angel and Christ, not sure how this applies to him. He didn't walk around telling everyone he had a testimony of Christ before his experience to gain it. He gained his testimony because he was harrowed up by his sins and delivered.

I think y'all are missing something very important here: a testimony is a gift from God. He can give it to you without study or works or any effort on your part if He chooses.

Sure, the Spirit can testify to anyone. But that's not what Oaks said, he said you can find your testimony by bearing it. Again, no matter how many times you say something it does not make it the truth, something is only true if it is true. Repetition is conditioning.

Also, (newsflash?): "opening your mouth without being 100% sure" is ALSO an act of faith.
just so we're clear.

Yes, and you should only open your mouth when you have received some witness that what you believe is true. I never said that you had to be a scholar on a topic to discuss it.

I think that's what we are not agreeing about, there is more to it than standing and saying something. Testimonies are vital, especially sharing them with others, but you don't gain one just by speaking. Whether by study or a witness from God I would still consider that works, the statement still stands that faith without works is dead.

[MMbelieve]

Ok, this is something I believed for a majority of my life and didn’t realize how backward it is until now. I remember a famous saying from Boyd K Packer in the 1980s, that “a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.” But you’re right. A testimony is a witness. You don’t testify until you have received the witness, by very definition of the words.

But it’s not really alive until you manifest it.
It’s true for testimonies and many other things because we are human.

Love is also found in expressing it.
Clarity is found in talking through thoughts.
Confidence is found in acting on it.

I remember at girls camp one year at testimony rock bearing my testimony (which I didn’t ever do) that I actually found that I had a lot to say that I didn’t know I was capable of. I didn’t lie, in fact I was more honest at that moment than I had ever been publicly about my faith and convictions. It was a moment that I found my testimony. So I can stand by what Packer said in your quote. It’s true.

Sure it was a good experience, and I’ve benefited greatly from sharing my feelings too. But I didn’t not gain my testimony on nights like that. I gained it in rigorous study and conversation with my Father in Heaven as I struggled through my life. Expressing and “finding” (I’d say finding the words for) your testimony is different than gaining it in the first place.

Finding the words for and “found in the bearing of it”
You seem to agree with Packer too.

[LukeAir2008]

Try and spot the same theological/philosophical idea in this video. LDS are not the only ones.

It’s a hard pill to swallow when you accept that “burning in the bosom” isn’t owned by Mormonism, and that your “burning” is just as false to them as theirs is to yours.

Are you including the New Testament burning in the bosom in your accusation?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I agree with Packer and Oaks and I don't think they are asking you to lie.
...

You are describing the process of gaining a witness through life's experiences. You had faith and a belief in that thing and received a "strengthening" witness by testifying of it. Oaks does talk about this process you went through, but he goes beyond that in mingling truth with lies.

Of course every testimony needs a starting point, whether it be hearing the word or living a portion of it. I think that if oaks were here to defend himself, he'd say he's sorry you think he wants someone to share a testimony that doesn't have ANY honest foundation elsewhere in their lives, but instead they should just lie. And he'd encourage you to continue to reject any such evil notion as you are now doing, but please tell people that he does not encourage lying.

I will go farther and meaner, to say that the devil put it into you to accuse the bretheren. They are not perfect but Oaks was trying to share a truth, which I testify to be true, which you YOURSELF also testify to be true: that sharing an honest testimony has a tendency to bring the spirit and grow the testimony, and in fact could even be the key to you realizing you actually have one. As it was so for me. So it was, so it is, so it is not to be hated on.

Yes, I am possessed by the Devil. Thank you!

[braingrunt]

Yes, I am possessed by the Devil. Thank you!

Sir, you are the one who received his word "not by the holy ghost", and so it became "not of god" for you. See DC50. I am far from perfect but I received his word by the holy ghost and see and understand the truth from it.

You even see the truth from it but are unwilling to remove the attack.

[MMbelieve]

It’s just another nit picking fault finding critical attitude towards a person or church that is hated.
If people want to find issue they always will.

What was said is not suggesting people lie or brainwash themselves by repeating something until they convince themselves of it.

Everyone ought to know as an adult that sharing what is inside outloud is very helpful and different than keeping it in.

I see this as just another pat each other on the back thread of people who are trying to destroy.

What does God say about people who stone the prophets?
What does he say about letting him judge his servants?

This path is poison to your soul folks.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You are describing the process of gaining a witness through life's experiences. You had faith and a belief in that thing and received a "strengthening" witness by testifying of it. Oaks does talk about this process you went through, but he goes beyond that in mingling truth with lies.

Of course every testimony needs a starting point, whether it be hearing the word or living a portion of it. I think that if oaks were here to defend himself, he'd say he's sorry you think he wants someone to share a testimony that doesn't have ANY honest foundation elsewhere in their lives, but instead they should just lie. And he'd encourage you to continue to reject any such evil notion as you are now doing, but please tell people that he does not encourage lying.

I will go farther and meaner, to say that the devil put it into you to accuse the bretheren. They are not perfect but Oaks was trying to share a truth, which I testify to be true, which you YOURSELF also testify to be true: that sharing an honest testimony has a tendency to bring the spirit and grow the testimony, and in fact could even be the key to you realizing you actually have one. As it was so for me. So it was, so it is, so it is not to be hated on.

Yes, I am possessed by the Devil. Thank you!

Sir, you are the one who received his word "not by the holy ghost", and so it became "not of god" for you. I am far from perfect but I received his word by the holy ghost and see and understand the truth from it.

Oh, that's right. I am the one who does not possess the gift of the Holy Ghost. Again, thank you.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Ok, this is something I believed for a majority of my life and didn’t realize how backward it is until now. I remember a famous saying from Boyd K Packer in the 1980s, that “a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.” But you’re right. A testimony is a witness. You don’t testify until you have received the witness, by very definition of the words.

But it’s not really alive until you manifest it.
It’s true for testimonies and many other things because we are human.

Love is also found in expressing it.
Clarity is found in talking through thoughts.
Confidence is found in acting on it.

I remember at girls camp one year at testimony rock bearing my testimony (which I didn’t ever do) that I actually found that I had a lot to say that I didn’t know I was capable of. I didn’t lie, in fact I was more honest at that moment than I had ever been publicly about my faith and convictions. It was a moment that I found my testimony. So I can stand by what Packer said in your quote. It’s true.

Sure it was a good experience, and I’ve benefited greatly from sharing my feelings too. But I didn’t not gain my testimony on nights like that. I gained it in rigorous study and conversation with my Father in Heaven as I struggled through my life. Expressing and “finding” (I’d say finding the words for) your testimony is different than gaining it in the first place.

Finding the words for and “found in the bearing of it”
You seem to agree with Packer too.

No, you can't take one sentence from his talk and say I agree with him.

“The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.”

This is largely untrue. I'm pretty darn sure I qualify for feeling the Spirit, even though I disagree with him there.

The entire issue with this is the mentality that you can declare you've received a witness of something that you haven't received a witness of. That's what a testimony is, a witness that you know something. Bearing your testimony is telling others that you have had it witnessed to you. To gain your testimony in the bearing is saying it has been witnessed to you before it has been, which is a lie.

[MMbelieve]

I agree with Packer and Oaks and I don't think they are asking you to lie.
...

You are describing the process of gaining a witness through life's experiences. You had faith and a belief in that thing and received a "strengthening" witness by testifying of it. Oaks does talk about this process you went through, but he goes beyond that in mingling truth with lies.

Of course every testimony needs a starting point, whether it be hearing the word or living a portion of it. I think that if oaks were here to defend himself, he'd say he's sorry you think he wants someone to share a testimony that doesn't have ANY honest foundation elsewhere in their lives, but instead they should just lie. And he'd encourage you to continue to reject any such evil notion as you are now doing, but please tell people that he does not encourage lying.

I will go farther and meaner, to say that the devil put it into you to accuse the bretheren. They are not perfect but Oaks was trying to share a truth, which I testify to be true, which you YOURSELF also testify to be true: that sharing an honest testimony has a tendency to bring the spirit and grow the testimony, and in fact could even be the key to you realizing you actually have one. As it was so for me. So it was, so it is, so it is not to be hated on.

Yes, I am possessed by the Devil. Thank you!

If your not joking then you have a serious problem. If your joking, you may have a serious problem.

[Gadianton Slayer]

It’s just another nit picking fault finding critical attitude towards a person or church that is hated.
If people want to find issue they always will.

What was said is not suggesting people lie or brainwash themselves by repeating something until they convince themselves of it.

Everyone ought to know as an adult that sharing what is inside outloud is very helpful and different than keeping it in.

I see this as just another pat each other on the back thread of people who are trying to destroy.

What does God say about people who stone the prophets?
What does he say about letting him judge his servants?

This path is poison to your soul folks.

Oh! We aren't stoning His prophets, because neither Oaks nor the others are prophets, seers, or revelators. If you have one prophetic statement form Oaks I'd love to hear it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It’s just another nit picking fault finding critical attitude towards a person or church that is hated.
If people want to find issue they always will.

What was said is not suggesting people lie or brainwash themselves by repeating something until they convince themselves of it.

Everyone ought to know as an adult that sharing what is inside outloud is very helpful and different than keeping it in.

I see this as just another pat each other on the back thread of people who are trying to destroy.

What does God say about people who stone the prophets?
What does he say about letting him judge his servants?

This path is poison to your soul folks.

The problem is that we encounter these types of statements all throughout church history. This is why we find ourselves in such an "awful situation" today. Oaks has a list of misspeaking that's a mile long, yet we believe the prophets are infallible.

How about we take him at his word: “It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.”

Oh, but you can't question them btw, we must sustain them.

Having little children repeat the phrase, "follow the prophet, don't go astray" is brainwashing at its finest.

And... if your idea of stoning the prophets is merely disagreeing with them then you'd also include a whole host of ancient prophets who openly condemn and outright reviled latter-day prophets.

Calling out false traditions and beliefs is not "poison", drinking the LDS Kool-aid is poison.

[MMbelieve]

But it’s not really alive until you manifest it.
It’s true for testimonies and many other things because we are human.

Love is also found in expressing it.
Clarity is found in talking through thoughts.
Confidence is found in acting on it.

I remember at girls camp one year at testimony rock bearing my testimony (which I didn’t ever do) that I actually found that I had a lot to say that I didn’t know I was capable of. I didn’t lie, in fact I was more honest at that moment than I had ever been publicly about my faith and convictions. It was a moment that I found my testimony. So I can stand by what Packer said in your quote. It’s true.

Sure it was a good experience, and I’ve benefited greatly from sharing my feelings too. But I didn’t not gain my testimony on nights like that. I gained it in rigorous study and conversation with my Father in Heaven as I struggled through my life. Expressing and “finding” (I’d say finding the words for) your testimony is different than gaining it in the first place.

Finding the words for and “found in the bearing of it”
You seem to agree with Packer too.

No, you can't take one sentence from his talk and say I agree with him.

“The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.”

This is largely untrue. I'm pretty darn sure I qualify for feeling the Spirit, even though I disagree with him there.

The entire issue with this is the mentality that you can declare you've received a witness of something that you haven't received a witness of. That's what a testimony is, a witness that you know something. Bearing your testimony is telling others that you have had it witnessed to you. To gain your testimony in the bearing is saying it has been witnessed to you before it has been, which is a lie.

So according to your qualifications for one to bear a testimony they must not speak to anything until they have a sure knowledge? Few people in scripture were given such an experience to have a sure knowledge. So let’s mute everyone. Perfect plan of the adversary.

You have any kids? Do you tell them to hush up until they know for sure what they are saying? According to your standards? Seems to you only wise men who have spent great time reading and studying and praying can know anything....hogwash. Children can know more about God than us adults who complicate it all.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Some say:
"You are blinded by trying to find fault with them."

I say:
"You are blinded by justifying everything they do"

So there's a balance, one that requires knowing and admitting when the leaders speak truth and lies. All of this covid stuff should be a good eye-opener to some of their true intentions. I mean seriously, Nelson saying "don't rehearse your doubts with other doubters" and the handbook saying you're in apostasy if you publicly oppose church leaders. How do you guys justify that?

[Gadianton Slayer]

Sure it was a good experience, and I’ve benefited greatly from sharing my feelings too. But I didn’t not gain my testimony on nights like that. I gained it in rigorous study and conversation with my Father in Heaven as I struggled through my life. Expressing and “finding” (I’d say finding the words for) your testimony is different than gaining it in the first place.

Finding the words for and “found in the bearing of it”
You seem to agree with Packer too.

No, you can't take one sentence from his talk and say I agree with him.

“The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.”

This is largely untrue. I'm pretty darn sure I qualify for feeling the Spirit, even though I disagree with him there.

The entire issue with this is the mentality that you can declare you've received a witness of something that you haven't received a witness of. That's what a testimony is, a witness that you know something. Bearing your testimony is telling others that you have had it witnessed to you. To gain your testimony in the bearing is saying it has been witnessed to you before it has been, which is a lie.

So according to your qualifications for one to bear a testimony they must not speak to anything until they have a sure knowledge? Few people in scripture were given such an experience to have a sure knowledge. So let’s mute everyone. Perfect plan of the adversary.

You have any kids? Do you tell them to hush up until they know for sure what they are saying? According to your standards? Seems to you only wise men who have spent great time reading and studying and praying can know anything....hogwash. Children can know more about God than us adults who complicate it all.

That is not at all what I said, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. None of us have a perfect understanding of literally anything right now, so by that logic testimonies do not exist.

I said that you cannot bear witness of something that has not yet been witnessed to you.

[InfoWarrior82]

I said that you cannot bear witness of something that has not yet been witnessed to you.

And if you do, THAT is lying.

AKA Bearing False Witness.



"Your Honor, I witnessed that man right over there rob the bank!"

"You saw him rob the bank?"

"Well no, I want him to be the one to have robbed the bank, so I'm saying that I saw him rob the bank to eventually make it true."

[Reluctant Watchman]

Sure it was a good experience, and I’ve benefited greatly from sharing my feelings too. But I didn’t not gain my testimony on nights like that. I gained it in rigorous study and conversation with my Father in Heaven as I struggled through my life. Expressing and “finding” (I’d say finding the words for) your testimony is different than gaining it in the first place.

Finding the words for and “found in the bearing of it”
You seem to agree with Packer too.

No, you can't take one sentence from his talk and say I agree with him.

“The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.”

This is largely untrue. I'm pretty darn sure I qualify for feeling the Spirit, even though I disagree with him there.

The entire issue with this is the mentality that you can declare you've received a witness of something that you haven't received a witness of. That's what a testimony is, a witness that you know something. Bearing your testimony is telling others that you have had it witnessed to you. To gain your testimony in the bearing is saying it has been witnessed to you before it has been, which is a lie.

So according to your qualifications for one to bear a testimony they must not speak to anything until they have a sure knowledge? Few people in scripture were given such an experience to have a sure knowledge. So let’s mute everyone. Perfect plan of the adversary.

You have any kids? Do you tell them to hush up until they know for sure what they are saying? According to your standards? Seems to you only wise men who have spent great time reading and studying and praying can know anything....hogwash. Children can know more about God than us adults who complicate it all.

There is a big difference between belief, faith, hope, and a sure witness. GadSlayer didn't say you had to have a perfect knowledge of something before you can bare witness of it.

I guess this is where we could easily shift to a discussion about the role of faith in receiving a witness. We learn about faith and works from James. We also learn of Moroni's teachings that we receive a witness after the trial of our faith. This is probably where most of us are diverging. Is simply sharing that you know something to be true the "works" that James speaks of? Or, is the testifying of Christ part of the trial of faith that Moroni speaks to?

Oaks words in this talk (OP) tend to suggest that another alternative to studying things out is to merely state that a thing is true and the Spirit will witness that it is so. So maybe you are right. If you share your witness that the prophet will never lead you astray (even if you haven't studied it out before) then you can receive a witness of that. BUT, for me, I rely upon multiple witnesses (two or more) to verify the truth of all things.

[MMbelieve]

It’s just another nit picking fault finding critical attitude towards a person or church that is hated.
If people want to find issue they always will.

What was said is not suggesting people lie or brainwash themselves by repeating something until they convince themselves of it.

Everyone ought to know as an adult that sharing what is inside outloud is very helpful and different than keeping it in.

I see this as just another pat each other on the back thread of people who are trying to destroy.

What does God say about people who stone the prophets?
What does he say about letting him judge his servants?

This path is poison to your soul folks.

The problem is that we encounter these types of statements all throughout church history. This is why we find ourselves in such an "awful situation" today. Oaks has a list of misspeaking that's a mile long, yet we believe the prophets are infallible.

How about we take him at his word: “It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.”

Oh, but you can't question them btw, we must sustain them.

Having little children repeat the phrase, "follow the prophet, don't go astray" is brainwashing at its finest.

And... if your idea of stoning the prophets is merely disagreeing with them then you'd also include a whole host of ancient prophets who openly condemn and outright reviled latter-day prophets.

Calling out false traditions and beliefs is not "poison", drinking the LDS Kool-aid is poison.

Fault finding is poison.
Going around looking for and calling out everyone in their perceived faults or misinterpretations is poison.

And yes, we have had humans running things from the beginning and many dumb things have been said. But if I were to look up and point them all out then what does that say of me?

What does it say of a wife who has to point out every fault of her husband?
Or a husband who has to point out every fault of his wife or his children?

People still believe that the leaders are supermen instead of humans? I don’t know anyone who can’t take a talk or lesson and do their own thinking about it.

I really think Utah is the pride center of this church and indeed it will start in his house. Utah is spoiled rotten and it shows.

Other parts of the nation and world are blessed to have a prophet visit them. They follow the prophet.
Probably because they understand what it means to do that and haven’t adulterated the very meaning of it.

[braingrunt]

...
I said that you cannot bear witness of something that has not yet been witnessed to you.

And you think that Oaks would deny this?

[Gadianton Slayer]

...
I said that you cannot bear witness of something that has not yet been witnessed to you.

And you think that Oaks would deny this?

Short answer: Yes. Because his statement literally means the opposite of what I said.