Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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Gadianton Slayer
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Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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I came across this statement by Dallin H. Oaks in the April 2008 General Conference:
Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

This is literally bearing false witness. He is teaching that it is ok to lie in order to gain faith, a faith that is in the church alone. Because apparently bearing false witness is better than praying to God directly.

No bueno! But there’s some food for thought.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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I've born testimony about not bearing false testimony. Seems like I am in apostacy since I testified the direct opposite of a PSR.

Prana
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Prana »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:24 pm I came across this statement by Dallin H. Oaks in the April 2008 General Conference:
Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

This is literally bearing false witness. He is teaching that it is ok to lie in order to gain faith, a faith that is in the church alone. Because apparently bearing false witness is better than praying to God directly.

No bueno! But there’s some food for thought.
Publicly declare something is true until you convince yourself it is? Sounds culty.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Original_Intent wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:39 pm I've born testimony about not bearing false testimony. Seems like I am in apostacy since I testified the direct opposite of a PSR.
I’m on the road to apostasy for many reasons as well... lol.

I’ve seen it used a bit, what is a “PSR”?
Last edited by Gadianton Slayer on May 23rd, 2021, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:42 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:24 pm I came across this statement by Dallin H. Oaks in the April 2008 General Conference:
Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

This is literally bearing false witness. He is teaching that it is ok to lie in order to gain faith, a faith that is in the church alone. Because apparently bearing false witness is better than praying to God directly.

No bueno! But there’s some food for thought.
Publicly declare something is true until you convince yourself it is? Sounds culty.
Correct. This was a definite eye-opener...

Lizzy60
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Lizzy60 »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:39 pm I've born testimony about not bearing false testimony. Seems like I am in apostacy since I testified the direct opposite of a PSR.
I’m on the road to apostasy for many reasons as well... lol.

I’ve seen it used a bit, what is a “PSR”?
Prophet, Seer, and Revelator

100% Mormon acronym 😎

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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Lizzy60 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:52 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:39 pm I've born testimony about not bearing false testimony. Seems like I am in apostacy since I testified the direct opposite of a PSR.
I’m on the road to apostasy for many reasons as well... lol.

I’ve seen it used a bit, what is a “PSR”?
Prophet, Seer, and Revelator

100% Mormon acronym 😎
Thanks 😂 I knew it was an acronym but there are a lot of those on here I haven’t learned yet.

NewEliza
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.

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NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting what you said. If you do not know something, how does telling yourself that you know it make it true? That is called conditioning. Convincing yourself.

Also, he implies that it is sometimes better than praying to God, do you approve of that? Should we walk around telling people what we want to know instead of receiving a witness of the Spirit? Is the Spirit not relevant?

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.


I think it was clear that he said that you GET a testimony by bearing... something... that you don't... have yet?

If he had said something like "You can strengthen your existing testimony by bearing it often", then yes, that would be better fitting.


But hey, maybe he simply wasn't speaking "as a prophet". Hahahahaha. (No one ever knows when they are these days and that's the beauty of this fraud).

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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InfoWarrior82 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:09 pm
NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
I think it was clear that he said that you GET a testimony by bearing... something... that you don't... have yet?

If he had said something like "You can strengthen your existing testimony by bearing it often", then yes, that would be better fitting.
Yep, it’s the last half that gets me though. Better to bear testimony than pray. Smdh.
InfoWarrior82 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:09 pm But hey, maybe he simply wasn't speaking "as a prophet". Hahahahaha. (No one ever knows when they are these days).
They never do.

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Pazooka
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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Ok, this is something I believed for a majority of my life and didn’t realize how backward it is until now. I remember a famous saying from Boyd K Packer in the 1980s, that “a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.” But you’re right. A testimony is a witness. You don’t testify until you have received the witness, by very definition of the words.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:12 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:09 pm
NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
I think it was clear that he said that you GET a testimony by bearing... something... that you don't... have yet?

If he had said something like "You can strengthen your existing testimony by bearing it often", then yes, that would be better fitting.
Yep, it’s the last half that gets me though. Better to bear testimony than pray. Smdh.
InfoWarrior82 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:09 pm But hey, maybe he simply wasn't speaking "as a prophet". Hahahahaha. (No one ever knows when they are these days).
They never do.


Yeah man, you're right. That part IS worse lol.

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Fred
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Fred »

In network marketing, they call it "fake it until you make it."
In positive attitude training, they call it "act as if."

The problem in both cases, is that those that can't, teach...

In network marketing, we have people that have never done it, teaching people how to do it.

In a faith setting, it suggests to the average member out in the audience to have faith in the experience of the speaker at the podium, which is not being truthful. So the poor member in the audience is introduced to a fake religion. It is not the real God or a real miracle. It tells the unsuspecting member that it is not necessary to have a personal relationship with Diety as all they really need is the fake testimonies of false prophets and gods.

How can an investigator gain a legitimate testimony based on an illusion?

I have been shocked at the number of people that stand up and bear a message on Testimony day that is not a testimony at all. It's like their mother whispered into their ear what to say when they were a child and 50 years later, they say the same exact thing. And it isn't any truer now than it was 50 years ago.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Fred wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:17 pm In network marketing, they call it "fake it until you make it."
In positive attitude training, they call it "act as if."

The problem in both cases, is that those that can't, teach...

In network marketing, we have people that have never done it, teaching people how to do it.

In a faith setting, it suggests to the average member out in the audience to have faith in the experience of the speaker at the podium, which is not being truthful. So the poor member in the audience is introduced to a fake religion. It is not the real God or a real miracle. It tells the unsuspecting member that it is not necessary to have a personal relationship with Diety as all they really need is the fake testimonies of false prophets and gods.

How can an investigator gain a legitimate testimony based on an illusion?

I have been shocked at the number of people that stand up and bear a message on Testimony day that is not a testimony at all. It's like their mother whispered into their ear what to say when they were a child and 50 years later, they say the same exact thing. And it isn't any truer now than it was 50 years ago.
I completely agree. One thing that baffled me was coming home from my mission after starting to “wake up” and sitting in a testimony meeting. First one home and my bishop said there is power in touching the temple, another person about masks and the injection, and there was MAYBE one person who focused their message on Christ. It was very saddening. My dad and I spent the next few weeks comparing truths and false doctrine that we heard in every sacrament meeting. There was a lot of blatant false doctrine...

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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Aprhys »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:57 pm
NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting what you said. If you do not know something, how does telling yourself that you know it make it true? That is called conditioning. Convincing yourself.

Also, he implies that it is sometimes better than praying to God, do you approve of that? Should we walk around telling people what we want to know instead of receiving a witness of the Spirit? Is the Spirit not relevant?
You can know something is true or not but the knowledge becomes stagnant if you don't "refresh," it every now and then. Take a marriage for example. I have been married for quite some time. Yes, I love my wife dearly but after day in and day out of raising kids, working, maintaining the house I forget just how grateful I am for my wife. When we get away and spend time together and don't have the world distracting us I realize how much I do indeed love her. A testimony is the same. You may know something is true but until that knowledge is tested or shared it will grow stagnant.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Aprhys wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:30 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:57 pm
NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting what you said. If you do not know something, how does telling yourself that you know it make it true? That is called conditioning. Convincing yourself.

Also, he implies that it is sometimes better than praying to God, do you approve of that? Should we walk around telling people what we want to know instead of receiving a witness of the Spirit? Is the Spirit not relevant?
You can know something is true or not but the knowledge becomes stagnant if you don't "refresh," it every now and then. Take a marriage for example. I have been married for quite some time. Yes, I love my wife dearly but after day in and day out of raising kids, working, maintaining the house I forget just how grateful I am for my wife. When we get away and spend time together and don't have the world distracting us I realize how much I do indeed love her. A testimony is the same. You may know something is true but until that knowledge is tested or shared it will grow stagnant.
Yes, beautiful said.

But did you learn that you first loved your wife because you stood and told yourself or other people that you loved her?

That is the issue, that you can gain a testimony by saying it before you know it. Worse is him continuing with the end, that it is better than praying to receive that answer.

There is no real defense for what he said.

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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

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Aprhys wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:30 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:57 pm
NewEliza wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:55 pm I’m going to give him the botd on this one and say he wasn’t suggesting lying.

My testimonies have been gained and strengthened by saying them out loud.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting what you said. If you do not know something, how does telling yourself that you know it make it true? That is called conditioning. Convincing yourself.

Also, he implies that it is sometimes better than praying to God, do you approve of that? Should we walk around telling people what we want to know instead of receiving a witness of the Spirit? Is the Spirit not relevant?
You can know something is true or not but the knowledge becomes stagnant if you don't "refresh," it every now and then. Take a marriage for example. I have been married for quite some time. Yes, I love my wife dearly but after day in and day out of raising kids, working, maintaining the house I forget just how grateful I am for my wife. When we get away and spend time together and don't have the world distracting us I realize how much I do indeed love her. A testimony is the same. You may know something is true but until that knowledge is tested or shared it will grow stagnant.
“Remembering” to do something again is very different than lying about it.

Prana
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Prana »

Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:39 pm Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.
Perhaps that is exactly what they are doing. Or at least trying to get everyone else to do.

Prana
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Prana »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:41 pm
Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:39 pm Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.
Perhaps that is exactly what they are doing. Or at least trying to get everyone else to do.
If you can convince yourself that the primary narrative is true, secondary details and evidence don’t matter. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence ... -for-ever/

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Gadianton Slayer
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Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:46 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:41 pm
Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:39 pm Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.
Perhaps that is exactly what they are doing. Or at least trying to get everyone else to do.
If you can convince yourself that the primary narrative is true, secondary details and evidence don’t matter. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence ... -for-ever/
Remember Holland’s talk that said if the BoM is true, then B, C, and D are true too? Forgot the title I’ll have to find it, but that used to sound so great. Not anymore. It’s this same logic, and they are using the truth that the BoM contains mixed with lies to get people to believe in that church. It’s all about the organization.

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Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:46 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:41 pm
Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:39 pm Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.
Perhaps that is exactly what they are doing. Or at least trying to get everyone else to do.
If you can convince yourself that the primary narrative is true, secondary details and evidence don’t matter. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence ... -for-ever/



I guess I missed this talk.... HOLY (*$#W*&(#W@(#*


This is straight up conditioning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Primary Questions and Secondary Questions
Begin by answering the primary questions. There are primary questions and there are secondary questions. Answer the primary questions first. Not all questions are equal and not all truths are equal. The primary questions are the most important. Everything else is subordinate. There are only a few primary questions. I will mention four of them.

1. Is there a God who is our Father?

2. Is Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Savior of the world?

3. Was Joseph Smith a prophet?

4. Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the kingdom of God on the earth?

By contrast, the secondary questions are unending. They include questions about Church history, polygamy, people of African descent and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, how the Book of Mormon was translated, the Pearl of Great Price, DNA and the Book of Mormon, gay marriage, the different accounts of the First Vision, and on and on.

If you answer the primary questions, the secondary questions get answered too, or they pale in significance and you can deal with things you understand and things you don’t and things you agree with and things you don’t without jumping ship altogether.



"Guys guys.... c'mon! You don't need to ask God if President Nelson is the Lord's prophet today..."

"Guys guys.... c'mon! You don't need to ask God if the covid jab is good..."
Last edited by InfoWarrior82 on May 23rd, 2021, 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Lie about your testimony - Dallin H. Oaks

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:46 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:41 pm
Prana wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 9:39 pm Imagine if we were talking about the covid vaccine? You gain a testimony of the safety and efficacy by bearing a testimony of it.
Perhaps that is exactly what they are doing. Or at least trying to get everyone else to do.
If you can convince yourself that the primary narrative is true, secondary details and evidence don’t matter. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence ... -for-ever/
Funny story, I had a sister missionary friend send me this talk and wanted to know what I thought. Well, it’s terrible and untrue. Just about all of it. So, I typed out a response telling her how I really felt. Just as I hit send another messaged came through from her that said, “it’s so awesome isn’t it!?!” ......

She hasn’t talked to me since.

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