Is God not enough?

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abijah`
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

Thinker wrote: August 30th, 2021, 8:46 am
abijah` wrote: August 29th, 2021, 5:15 pm 1) Explain how then…
1) By quoting you, wasn’t it obvious? First you stated your belief in human sacrifice scapegoating as central to your belief in God, then you claimed you didn’t have other gods before God.
You are the one who upholds the false god here.

You honour the god of your own self-perceived wisdom, you bow before the idol-image of your own fallible sense of what is good and what is evil.

I am the one upholding the one true God, by my acknowledging the divine will as being manifest in the willing sacrifice of His Son -

John 10
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

It is not me who is the idolator and blasphemer in this equation.
2) I am maintaining the infinite and timeless veracity of eternal, saving truths.
2) No, to try to pass the buck is exactly what is NOT saving but is damming - holding you back from taking response-ability & growing.
To grow and develop in spirit, independent/outside of Christ, is only to damn oneself. I can't take responsibility for these things, my back is not literally not capable of shouldering the weight of burden. I know you choose not to believe this, but contrary to what you think, your personal sensibilities do not have editor rights on Reality.

Nothing "good" can actually be "good", independent of Jesus -

Moroni 10
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

Your modern-western secular worldview, and your self-righteous rejection of the Atonement is, according to the ^scriptures, is not "good": for it "denieth the Christ".

I'll address the remaining points as soon as i can be bothered.

abijah`
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

Thinker wrote: August 30th, 2021, 8:46 am
abijah` wrote: August 29th, 2021, 5:15 pm 3)What an infantile reasoning process, to arrive at such a juvenile, black-and-white conclusion on such a gradient and complex moral issue as killing -- as if all killing was just killing. What frail, pithy logic to apply to such a topic.
3) You seem ticked off that I dare question your false god. When experiencing anger, logic tends to go out the window, thus you trying to justify killing as godly. The negative Spirit that comes through when you try to shame me - says more than a thick book could.
I'm not triggered, you are simply trying to dilute the substance of my assertions by insinuating that I am.

I'm interested in debating the topic of discussion, not playing internet armchair psychologist.
4) And why do satanic people do this?
Because its a mockery of the Sacrament.
4) Pretending to drink blood is godly - to you?
No.

I am participating in partaking of the emblems of Christ, which resemble and memorialise the body and blood of Jesus, which He offered willingly.

John 6
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

This is the logic: you become what you eat. The food you consume is what - on a literal, as well as ritual basis -- itself becomes, and is used to create new body.

The logic is that, we Christians as a cohesive, collective unit, all participate together in the consuming of the sacrificial meal of Christ. The logic is that by partaking the same consecrated food/drink, the "new body" which results from that is a unified, interconnected Body of Christ, a covenant superstructure and superorganism, a holy matrix of a sacred hive-mind, characterised as both a collective solidified unit, whilst simultaneously maintaining the individual identity and agency of all those who compose it, wherein we all are compounded together in a unified whole, through partaking of the Sacrament, into a singular, corporate identity, called by the name of "Christ".
5) You take your conclusions, beliefs and doctrines as being self-evidently and objectively true when they in fact are not. You take your interpretations and contortions of Christ's teachings as being the original, distilled truth when in fact it is not.
5) Please specify my exact quotes to prove your claims.
Its all over your verbiage. Your issuing of labels and assertions of truth.

Your framework of reasoning is founded upon the assumption that your interpretations of Christianity are indeed what it truly is, and that your definitions of right and wrong (such as where Christ's sacrifice is concerned) are absolute.

You have made your own wisdom and perception into your false god, before whom the seat of your beliefs/values/worldview lay prostrate.
7)You have the chronic proclivity to unwarrantedly associate/group whatever ideas you don't find suitable with other, unrelated concepts that are in wanting of credibility.

As if the stuff you're talking about have literally anything to do with the verity of eternal blueprint of God's Plan, which hinges upon an infinite Sacrifice by One willing to make it.

Stop calling it "false gods".

HOW MANY TIMES do I have to inform you on the distinction, "FALSE GODS" MEANS WORSHIP.
7) Yes, and many are misguided to worship Jesus over God. You see engraved images of a white Jesus in places of WORSHIP.
Worship Jesus over God?

The premise of your logic is antithetical to the Christian doctrine and worldview. You obviously don't know who Christ is:

John 8
"I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me also bears witness about me.”
They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

By denying Jesus, Thinker, you likewise deny the God who sent Him.

By trying to suggest there is some sort of competition b/w, or comparison to be drawn, 'twixt God and Jesus, then this only speaks to the fundamental flaws in your own understandings of the Gospel.

You literally cannot honour One without honouring the Other as well; as well as dishonour. They are One.

I implore you to take to heart Jesus's cosmically dire warning from a couple verses later - for it applies directly to you :

John 8
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

8) Please learn, and see that you don't un-learn, that we do not automatically engage in idolatry by using literally anything that we need, like or enjoy.
8) I never suggested all we use or enjoy we place before God. Of course not! Only those things or ideas that we prioritize above God are false gods. It doesn’t matter what you SAY you worship - actions speak louder than words.
Indeed you are correct.

You prioritise your falsely-informed structure of morality above the system of right-and-wrong which God has established, and you worship the profane image of your own non-wisdom, above His unfailing wisdom.

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Thinker
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

Abijah,
Again, I sense a bad spirit reading your put downs & would rather not discuss further. However there is 1 point that would be good to explore.

What does it mean to be for-Christ & what does it mean to deny Christ or be anti-Christ?

To be for Christ does NOT require support of human sacrifice scapegoating - at least not to me. Belief in Christ does require living like Christ as much as possible - likening his teachings to you. This means in part, carrying your cross.

https://youtu.be/-IejKIjC6hw

To be anti-Christ or to deny Christ is to deny truth - and to deny free speech (Christ is considered the archetype of free speech, among other ideals).

abijah`
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

Thinker wrote: September 2nd, 2021, 7:12 pm Abijah,
Again, I sense a bad spirit reading your put downs & would rather not discuss further. However there is 1 point that would be good to explore.

What does it mean to be for-Christ & what does it mean to deny Christ or be anti-Christ?

To be for Christ does NOT require support of human sacrifice scapegoating - at least not to me. Belief in Christ does require living like Christ as much as possible - likening his teachings to you. This means in part, carrying your cross.

https://youtu.be/-IejKIjC6hw

To be anti-Christ or to deny Christ is to deny truth - and to deny free speech (Christ is considered the archetype of free speech, among other ideals).
You're right, the tone and sharpness of my post was unbecoming, nor conducive to persuasiveness in my argument; I am sorry.

Pertaining to your above question as to what is for-Christ or against (pertaining to His atoning sacrifice), I submit we allow Christ to clarify that Himself, dispelling all ambiguity once and for all -

Matthew16
From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

You with your "human scapegoating" labelling -- basically ^Peter above. You set your mind on this world over the things of God.

Your statement above "..at least not to me" sums up our debate I think. You disbelieve the scriptures because they present and hinge upon what you deem irreconciliable.

Perhaps its best for us to just leave things for now, and both include the other in our prayers that their and our hearts might be softened, and porous to the paradigm-correcting influence of the Spirit.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

It seems like many - most religious - dismiss the commandment to have no other gods before God. They act as if it’s optional. Like, you can link Mohammad or Jesus to God - even call them God - no biggie - “everyone’s doing it.” And they have been doing it for hundreds of years - so it seems just the way of things. But it is wrong. Why?

Why is it so wrong to put Jesus as God? Why did Jesus warn against this?
  • ”Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.” - Mark 10:18
Isn’t Jesus so GOoD? Didn’t he say he and the Father are one? Conflicting scriptures abound - especially when you don’t realize 1) symbolism & 2) how some scriptures have been twisted.

There are many reasons why we shouldn’t have other gods - not even Jesus - before God. Mainly - why worship anything but the highest? Also, I have seen the strong tendency to think in bipolar extremes. Even church leaders mislead with polarized, black-or-white/EITHER-OR ideologies like “the church is EITHER true OR it isn’t.” Really, there is good and bad - opposition in all things. I see most who have truth crisis about the church - go to opposite extremes - even illogical faith in atheism. They figure, “now that I discovered this falsity of the church, it must mean all religion is false.” Similarly, when people imagine Jesus inseparably attached to God & they discover falsities of Christian origins - then they toss out God too… & to their detriment.

God is a 3-letter word representing truth, GOoD, & “the kingdom of God within.” To discard that, is to discard all that matters. I’m not suggesting one MUST call it God. Some people - based on religious trauma - don’t like the word. But it’s just a word - reality, truth, good & internal spirituality exist no matter what label is applied.

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mcusick
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by mcusick »

Thinker wrote: May 14th, 2021, 3:58 pm Definitely heretical so brace yourself. :)

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods.
Jesus is not an idol.

Hebrews 1
And again, when he [the Father] bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, "And let all the angels of God worship him."
And of the angels he saith, "Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But unto the Son he saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
The angels are told by the Father to worship Jesus. He has declared Jesus God.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

mcusick wrote: March 20th, 2022, 5:16 am
Thinker wrote: May 14th, 2021, 3:58 pm Definitely heretical so brace yourself. :)

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods.
Jesus is not an idol.
Hebrews 1
And again, when he [the Father] bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, "And let all the angels of God worship him."
And of the angels he saith, "Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But unto the Son he saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
The angels are told by the Father to worship Jesus. He has declared Jesus God.
Scriptures have been warped &/or were untrue to begin with & contradict…
  • ”Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.” - Mark 10:18
The main problems with having Jesus before or as God:
1) Not the highest
2) Cannot follow what’s on a pedestal 100 feet high
3) It distracts from the kingdom of God within

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

abijah` wrote: August 29th, 2021, 5:15 pm
The horrific belief in human sacrifice ought to be obvious enough as evil.
And it is. Jesus was beyond a merely human sacrifice, and it was not carried out by the fallible will of man.
Drinking blood - or pretending to - is part of satanic rituals.
Indeed.

And why do satanic people do this?

Because its a mockery of the Sacrament.
So THAT's what effective double speak looks like. I always wondered how people would fall for it, but now it makes sense.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by TheDuke »

Thinker: I don't even know what you're trying to even say? That Jesus' isn't god and worshipping Jesus distracts and teachings of Jesus are wrong? If that is what 1-3 above means then you don't have any appreciation for who god is, because our god, is not within us. True we are children of god and posses the potential for godly attributes and may (or will) return to live with god, but this is not possible through this Telestial or fallen world without Jesus and worshipping him. Now perhaps the issue is defining worship.

And the scripture you quoted was before the atonement, not what Jesus has stated after or what is stated after by the apostles. Now saying the scriptures are "warped" only means there is nothing to trust, but you're own personal word. I'm sorry, the spirit testifies of the truth (to me anyway) of much of the scriptures and gospel within them (I will admit not all for whatever reasons) especially the need to obtain the gift of the atonement from Jesus. Perhaps you don't call that worshipping. but then again, Alma's salvation came from praying directly to Jesus as eventually did Saul's.

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

TheDuke wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 10:40 pm Thinker: I don't even know what you're trying to even say? That Jesus' isn't god and worshipping Jesus distracts and teachings of Jesus are wrong? If that is what 1-3 above means then you don't have any appreciation for who god is, because our god, is not within us. True we are children of god and posses the potential for godly attributes and may (or will) return to live with god, but this is not possible through this Telestial or fallen world without Jesus and worshipping him. Now perhaps the issue is defining worship.

And the scripture you quoted was before the atonement, not what Jesus has stated after or what is stated after by the apostles. Now saying the scriptures are "warped" only means there is nothing to trust, but you're own personal word. I'm sorry, the spirit testifies of the truth (to me anyway) of much of the scriptures and gospel within them (I will admit not all for whatever reasons) especially the need to obtain the gift of the atonement from Jesus. Perhaps you don't call that worshipping. but then again, Alma's salvation came from praying directly to Jesus as eventually did Saul's.
That's not directed at me, but I'm going to answer with my opinion anyway. I think everyone falls victim to thinking everyone needs to think the same thing. Thinker has realized that knowing the truth or falsehood of the atonement is not necessarily important and that human sacrifice is kind of disturbing. It's disturbing enough that it seems like our heavenly father wouldn't do it. So she chooses to worship he who has no name sans the willful and brutal slaughtering of his own son. Maybe that's a real thing or not. Here's my take on it, though.
1. Jesus should have spent a lot of time covering the atonement if it was that important. Instead, he spends no time on it
2. The scriptures' first hand account of the atonement is obviously made up.
3. The only person who hints at the suffer-for-everyone's-sins atonement, as far as I can remember, is Paul, who I obviously disagree with
4. In the limited teachings of Jesus which we possess, on multiple occasions, he says things like:
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
> And then shall the aJews blook upon me and say: What are these cwounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.

Jesus requires you to do the works, not believe in him. Jesus taught the religion *of* Jesus. Paul taught the religion *about* Jesus. It's missing plain and precious truths.

There will be many disappointed people when Jesus comes again who will wonder how they were so easily fooled. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." That's what Thinker is talking about.

Anyway, not all doctrine is for all people. Maybe this is important for Thinker to believe, but not important for you. Maybe it's even harmful to you. Who knows? But if you can't accept that it's important to Thinker, then you're missing the point of the creation.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by TheDuke »

Your right it isn't important to me what Thinker believes and I agree 100% with all getting their own understanding and truth varying depending on our mission and level of progression. However, Thinker did not write those 3 items as opinion but stated that scriptures are not to be trusted and that Jesus is not god. If someone doesn't believe Jesus is god, then that is their choice and obviously all the NT, BoM, PoGP and everything LDS and modern Christian related isn't important.

As to the atonement, I have a very, very firm testimony of it and finally understand most of its purpose. Further, I have had the blessing (terrible ordeal) to try to accomplish a tiny, tiny, tiny little element of one aspect in my life. and I now understand it.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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TheDuke wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 10:40 pm Thinker: I don't even know what you're trying to even say? That Jesus' isn't god and worshipping Jesus distracts and teachings of Jesus are wrong? If that is what 1-3 above means then you don't have any appreciation for who god is, because our god, is not within us…
perhaps the issue is defining worship…
“Thou shalt have no other gods before God.” I’m simply expanding on this & pointing out how no matter how long false traditions have been happening, Christianity today violates that basic lower commandment. Why not worship Krishna (who Christ’s personification is significantly modeled after)? Why not worship the Hindu kitchen god? Actually - in practice many do
& suffer heart disease for it.

You claim god is not within us - the opposite of what Christ taught:
  • ”20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” - Luke 17
Don’t take Christ’s word for it - consider your own experience of God. Self evident! Please tell me how could YOU experience God anywhere but within you??

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TheDuke
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by TheDuke »

Thinker: easy you can stand in his presence, then you will know he is not literally, only figuratively within you.

And your quote of Jesus was “kingdom” not god himself.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Serragon »

I think the larger point being made is true.

Our natural man desires something tangible instead of something abstract. Because of this, the abstract idea of living by the Spirit eventually gets corrupted into desiring tangible evidences by which to focus and measure oneself. This pattern is repeated throughout the scriptures, and we can see it happening within our own church. Rules, traditions, ceremonies, etc all exist for this purpose.

This is not to say that these things are bad or wrong. They are very useful and often necessary as tools. But eventually those rules get elevated above the abstract principles they point to, and that is when the problems begin.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by TheDuke »

Sure but in the end god is a man. Or men. And women. Purified but tangible.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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harakim wrote: March 25th, 2022, 5:42 pm That's not directed at me, but I'm going to answer with my opinion anyway. I think everyone falls victim to thinking everyone needs to think the same thing. Thinker has realized that knowing the truth or falsehood of the atonement is not necessarily important and that human sacrifice is kind of disturbing. It's disturbing enough that it seems like our heavenly father wouldn't do it. So she chooses to worship he who has no name sans the willful and brutal slaughtering of his own son. Maybe that's a real thing or not. Here's my take on it, though.
1. Jesus should have spent a lot of time covering the atonement if it was that important. Instead, he spends no time on it
2. The scriptures' first hand account of the atonement is obviously made up.
3. The only person who hints at the suffer-for-everyone's-sins atonement, as far as I can remember, is Paul, who I obviously disagree with
4. In the limited teachings of Jesus which we possess, on multiple occasions, he says things like:
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
> And then shall the aJews blook upon me and say: What are these cwounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.

Jesus requires you to do the works, not believe in him. Jesus taught the religion *of* Jesus. Paul taught the religion *about* Jesus. It's missing plain and precious truths.

There will be many disappointed people when Jesus comes again who will wonder how they were so easily fooled. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." That's what Thinker is talking about.

Anyway, not all doctrine is for all people. Maybe this is important for Thinker to believe, but not important for you. Maybe it's even harmful to you. Who knows? But if you can't accept that it's important to Thinker, then you're missing the point of the creation.
Thanks for validating my thoughts & for validating how we each are on unique journeys and so it’s not “1 size fits all.” It means a lot. And I admire how you see validity from various perspectives.

You remind me about a truth I have yet to fully wrap my head around: “functional illusions are priceless.” I see truth & error in it - to deceive ourselves especially knowingly seems wrong if even possible. Yet, faith is not necessarily strictly fact-based. Faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Placebo effect/mind-body-interactions have real influence, even if the belief is mistaken. Ideally, beliefs work for our highest good, rather than against it - yet “highest good” itself may be mistakenly imagined.

So, the highest good I can imagine may (like most) be waaaay short of what is actually the highest good. But if I don’t aim at the highest (God/GOoD) & have false gods I cling to - then I’m much less likely of getting closer to the real God.

What do you think?

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Re: Is God not enough?

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TheDuke wrote: March 28th, 2022, 12:32 pm Thinker: easy you can stand in his presence, then you will know he is not literally, only figuratively within you.

And your quote of Jesus was “kingdom” not god himself.
Another word for kingdom is realm, & another word for realm in this context, is experience. The Spirit is experienced within. It’s axiomatic - self evident.

But if you imagine God must be a person like us, it’s ridiculous to think that another person could be inside another… besides mothers in pregnancy which IMO, is what’s meant by, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Getting a body - being born of amniotic fluid/water - is important as is being spiritually born again & again…

How do you define God? If God is omnipresent - then a body would limit & that wouldn’t be God.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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Serragon wrote: March 28th, 2022, 1:09 pm I think the larger point being made is true.

Our natural man desires something tangible instead of something abstract. Because of this, the abstract idea of living by the Spirit eventually gets corrupted into desiring tangible evidences by which to focus and measure oneself. This pattern is repeated throughout the scriptures, and we can see it happening within our own church. Rules, traditions, ceremonies, etc all exist for this purpose.

This is not to say that these things are bad or wrong. They are very useful and often necessary as tools. But eventually those rules get elevated above the abstract principles they point to, and that is when the problems begin.
True. There is a strong temptation to choose concrete over abstract - takes less faith. Feels more sure, but ironically is less secure. All things must fail except the pure love of God. I know the scripture references “pure love of Christ” & I see Christ as a culmination & personification of spiritual ideals for us humans. How exactly is that different from God? Maybe because God represents the highest - even higher than our imperfectly highest imagined ideals. And God is the means by which we all exist - intelligent design, Spirit & free will.

Some suggest God is defined significantly by a hierarchy of values. The ultimate pyramid scheme. I like the honest, practical approach of Paul Tillech in distinguishing God from the actual thing worshipped/prioritized. Your personal (often false) god is really your “ultimate concern” as you live your daily life - not what you claim to worship, but what you actually prioritize in your every-day life. Personally, I believe in God that is not these false gods - but it’s a good start to call it what it is when prioritizing false gods over God.

So, Eg., the lds church is god to many members… Atheists who spend most their time/resources attending atheist events & reading atheist books have as their god, atheism. :) Someone in my childhood ward was obsessed with music - could not talk without referring to music - especially singing - so that was her god, at least for that time. It could be that some false gods get in the way of worshiping God/doing God’s will - only temporarily… like someone getting really pissed & mean at being interrupted when watching lds conference.

The most common & I guess natural false gods are parents, who can do no wrong in the eyes of dependent young children. Some carry this mistaken idolization of their parents into adulthood - especially if those parents dysfunctionally created an atmosphere in which questioning was severely punished. Sometimes, if the adult-child was abused but clung to parental idealization (Stockholm syndrome) - & never released it, then they’ll repeat the cycle of abuse themselves or marrying someone who will.

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

Thinker wrote: April 1st, 2022, 11:42 am
harakim wrote: March 25th, 2022, 5:42 pm That's not directed at me, but I'm going to answer with my opinion anyway. I think everyone falls victim to thinking everyone needs to think the same thing. Thinker has realized that knowing the truth or falsehood of the atonement is not necessarily important and that human sacrifice is kind of disturbing. It's disturbing enough that it seems like our heavenly father wouldn't do it. So she chooses to worship he who has no name sans the willful and brutal slaughtering of his own son. Maybe that's a real thing or not. Here's my take on it, though.
1. Jesus should have spent a lot of time covering the atonement if it was that important. Instead, he spends no time on it
2. The scriptures' first hand account of the atonement is obviously made up.
3. The only person who hints at the suffer-for-everyone's-sins atonement, as far as I can remember, is Paul, who I obviously disagree with
4. In the limited teachings of Jesus which we possess, on multiple occasions, he says things like:
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
> And then shall the aJews blook upon me and say: What are these cwounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.

Jesus requires you to do the works, not believe in him. Jesus taught the religion *of* Jesus. Paul taught the religion *about* Jesus. It's missing plain and precious truths.

There will be many disappointed people when Jesus comes again who will wonder how they were so easily fooled. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." That's what Thinker is talking about.

Anyway, not all doctrine is for all people. Maybe this is important for Thinker to believe, but not important for you. Maybe it's even harmful to you. Who knows? But if you can't accept that it's important to Thinker, then you're missing the point of the creation.
Thanks for validating my thoughts & for validating how we each are on unique journeys and so it’s not “1 size fits all.” It means a lot. And I admire how you see validity from various perspectives.

You remind me about a truth I have yet to fully wrap my head around: “functional illusions are priceless.” I see truth & error in it - to deceive ourselves especially knowingly seems wrong if even possible. Yet, faith is not necessarily strictly fact-based. Faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Placebo effect/mind-body-interactions have real influence, even if the belief is mistaken. Ideally, beliefs work for our highest good, rather than against it - yet “highest good” itself may be mistakenly imagined.

So, the highest good I can imagine may (like most) be waaaay short of what is actually the highest good. But if I don’t aim at the highest (God/GOoD) & have false gods I cling to - then I’m much less likely of getting closer to the real God.

What do you think?
I agree. Why would the world be set up so you would fail when you try but not when you don't? That doesn't make sense.

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ransomme
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by ransomme »

Not all idols are bad. We are idols of God, we were made to image God, i.e. to be, to act, to become like God

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The Airbender
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Re: Is God not enough?

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Thinker wrote: May 14th, 2021, 3:58 pm Definitely heretical so brace yourself. :)

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods. Dogma shames anyone who dares question these idols or gods - yet the biggest red flag for the adversary’s approach is to try to deny free agency & shift the focus away from God & shifting response-ability - which ironically forcing belief in Eg., human sacrifice scapegoating does.

“Thou shalt have no other gods.”
Why not?

To be clear, I appreciate & see truth in scriptures & I believe in Christ as the ultimate ideal to follow, but I don’t replace God with him. And I don’t trust in fallible scripture authors/editors etc. Even though I see Catholicism responsible for corruption of many Christian ideas, I still value truths from it... Eg:

Who God is & who God isn’t:
https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc

God is not “a” being, but being itself... “I AM that I AM.” “Be still and know that I AM God.” Who we are minus physicality, are children of God. “The kingdom of God is within us”! God may be the effort of striving for the highest GOoD - remembering & living our first estate - our divine nature. In doing this, sometimes religious ideas, rituals etc., help & sometimes hinder. It’s ignorant to assume we can blindly accept whatever others tell us & that “opposition in all things” doesn’t apply to religion.

The idea that God/GOoD is revealed through its opposite is hard to fathom & I can see how this truth is twisted to pretend evil is good & vice versa. Truth & integrity need to be prioritized - & even then, it may be a maze in figuring out truth & good. God created everything & in a sense is in & part of everything - omnipresent. So, “God is not enough” - seems impossible except God is hierarchal - striving for higher & higher goods. Worshiping God - who is intelligent (“to choose between”) is being selective. Thinking or expressing belief in God is not enough to experience God. Worshipping God is striving for what’s best, through active faith (trial & error).

Maybe some of these idols are attempts to experience God & may not be idols but rather “divination tools” if they help connect to God - not distract away from God. But because the adversary has infiltrated religions, caution is needed. Replacing god with idols - it will never be enough (hence addictions, feeling unfulfilled etc). Maybe that is how you know the difference between godly aids & idols - experiencing God is enough.
Until God is the ever-present presence in your waking and sleeping, you will not know him and he will not be enough. At the same time, he will always be too much until the natural man has been completely overcome.

You will run from him and you will hate him. It will be as if a bear pursued you and, escaping, you encounter a Lion. You escape from the Lion and lean on a wall only to be bitten by a serpent. Run in fear you who proclaim to desire the Day of the Lord for it is a Day of Darkness and not of light.

Do you not believe the scriptures?

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Thinker
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

harakim wrote: April 1st, 2022, 7:11 pm
Thinker wrote: April 1st, 2022, 11:42 am Thanks for validating my thoughts & for validating how we each are on unique journeys and so it’s not “1 size fits all.” It means a lot. And I admire how you see validity from various perspectives.

You remind me about a truth I have yet to fully wrap my head around: “functional illusions are priceless.” I see truth & error in it - to deceive ourselves especially knowingly seems wrong if even possible. Yet, faith is not necessarily strictly fact-based. Faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Placebo effect/mind-body-interactions have real influence, even if the belief is mistaken. Ideally, beliefs work for our highest good, rather than against it - yet “highest good” itself may be mistakenly imagined.

So, the highest good I can imagine may (like most) be waaaay short of what is actually the highest good. But if I don’t aim at the highest (God/GOoD) & have false gods I cling to - then I’m much less likely of getting closer to the real God.

What do you think?
I agree. Why would the world be set up so you would fail when you try but not when you don't? That doesn't make sense.
True that it doesn’t make sense to shoot for anything but the highest. Yet, I see myself & others sometimes reach for low hanging fruit - so to speak. It could be argued, Eg., that too much time spent on this forum is a false god in the sense of not seeking & doing God’s will - which may involve doing other things.

Success & failure may be subjective or defined with limited, only particular parameters. You may succeed financially but fail socially - with family. Herd mentality - running with the herd - doesn’t take much effort & some define success by how well you fit in & run with the herd.

But generally, I think prioritizing & worshiping God is the only way of succeeding - “all else fails.” Reminds me of Frankl’s “man’s search for meaning” even in hell - can succeed.

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Thinker
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

ransomme wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 3:37 pm Not all idols are bad. We are idols of God, we were made to image God, i.e. to be, to act, to become like God
I believe we - not just Jesus - are demigods, & can develop godly aspects. But I don’t see us as idols of God - more like vice versa. We make God into our own images/imaginations.

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Thinker
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

The Airbender wrote: April 5th, 2022, 6:05 pmUntil God is the ever-present presence in your waking and sleeping, you will not know him and he will not be enough. At the same time, he will always be too much until the natural man has been completely overcome.

You will run from him and you will hate him. It will be as if a bear pursued you and, escaping, you encounter a Lion. You escape from the Lion and lean on a wall only to be bitten by a serpent. Run in fear you who proclaim to desire the Day of the Lord for it is a Day of Darkness and not of light.

Do you not believe the scriptures?
Do you not believe Socrates, Cicero or Seneca? Before taking medication from someone, don’t you learn what it is, does & possible side effects? For your soul and spirit, don’t you learn how they came to be - many scriptures from voting on the nature of Christ - killing dissenters? Intelligence = to choose between - aka cherry-pick. Thomas Jefferson saw the need to cherry pick scriptures:
  • ”In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.” –- To John Adams, 1804

I like what you mentioned about God, darkness & light. No matter where you go, there you are.

"I give unto men weakness…for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." - Ether 12:27
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration

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ransomme
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by ransomme »

Thinker wrote: April 9th, 2022, 3:48 pm
ransomme wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 3:37 pm Not all idols are bad. We are idols of God, we were made to image God, i.e. to be, to act, to become like God
I believe we - not just Jesus - are demigods, & can develop godly aspects. But I don’t see us as idols of God - more like vice versa. We make God into our own images/imaginations.
God made us in His image

This is an entertaining little video and gets the point across well enough to be understood

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