Is God not enough?

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Re: Is God not enough?

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One of the things that people seem to struggle with is distinguishing idols from true prophets (and making idols of men). A true prophet, delivering a message from God, can be important in our journey to discover truth and plant a seed of faith within us. The danger is when we make idols of people and rely on the arm of flesh, rather than using truth as an anchoring point to form a connection with God as we develop spiritually.

I find that I value those things which I can internalize; the things that produce fruit for me. I'm much less likely, these days, to find value in someone else's literal view of religion and spirituality. I find the symbolic view of the world to be fascinating and especially as I can relate it to make sense within my own life, experiences, and journey.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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abijah` wrote: May 18th, 2021, 1:36 pm...An idol becomes an idol when it becomes bigger to you than God.
That is exactly what I think & was explaining. Anything that comes before God is “other gods before God” aka an idol.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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The Creator wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:05 pm One of the things that people seem to struggle with is distinguishing idols from true prophets (and making idols of men). A true prophet, delivering a message from God, can be important in our journey to discover truth and plant a seed of faith within us. The danger is when we make idols of people and rely on the arm of flesh, rather than using truth as an anchoring point to form a connection with God as we develop spiritually.

I find that I value those things which I can internalize; the things that produce fruit for me. I'm much less likely, these days, to find value in someone else's literal view of religion and spirituality. I find the symbolic view of the world to be fascinating and especially as I can relate it to make sense within my own life, experiences, and journey.
Exactly!
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Learning from others - especially genuine prophets - makes sense to make the path better. Still, as you suggested, there’s a strong tendency to have faith in people rather than God. It’s easier - you can see, hear & touch people. But people are also fallible.

This is a too-much-information age so there’s need to be selective & not waist time on unfruitful endeavors. Babies need to have just milk - but grown adults need more. Similarly spiritually.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by John Tavner »

Thinker wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:03 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 17th, 2021, 9:44 pm I think we probably do agree on more than we disagree, but when we do find those disagreements, they are pretty chasmic :)

Fair enough, I've been given a few books like that before.. So I understand better now why you are doing it :)

I don't believe that approach is the ancient view of faith.

1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Faith uses the word in Greek to represent trust, confidence and belief. Assurance is the confidence/ a "guaranteeing" and hope is the "expectation or trust in what we don't see and the "certainty" is inner conviction of what is no seen/perceived.

In other words Faith is the confidence/guarantee in the expectation of what we don't see. It is our state of mind, not how I feel. Not all feelings come from within. Many come from wihtout and try to convince us that they are us, when they are not...

...despite how I feel keeping my eye single to Him and not to how I feel and "my needs" in the moment - this allows freedom and the ability to help others as well because I'm not only doing as well as I'm feeling.
Thanks, John. It is good to remember commonalities.

I’m completely with you in that integrity often involves acting despite not feeling like it. But I still think of faith & hope as more emotional. Same with “state of mind.”

What you brought up about some feelings coming from outside us - at first that seems wrong but I can see some truth. It may be subtle, but a place can have a sort of feeling to it, & others can affect us. But generally, it’s like Leibniz said of monads - they are indestructible but only pop in & out of existence by internal principles - free will.
It's not just a place, but people. Everyone gives off energy. Some people are more susceptible to it than others. Empaths get hit really hard by it. Most of my life I thought what I was "feeling" came from with in. What happened is I chose to obtain those feelings and when I began to think it came from within, I began to create it more. I can choose peace even in hell - even if I don't "feel" peace. I accept the peace that is there, but can't be felt for all the other competing energies. So one day I realized "I'm not actually annoyed or angry or frustrated or depressed" I began to see that it was those around me... especially when those feelings came out of nowhere. It is one thing to be in a funk fror a while and begin to feel depressed, it is another when I walk into a home and immediately feel depressed when there is nothing that would have instigated it. These energies, I believe, are spirits - they attempt to influence us and make us "think" we are something that we aren't. Only when understanding that often those feelings aren't us and they are outside trying to get in do we obtain power to say "no" you have no control over me and we can begin to emit the energy of Christ. Peace in all times, love in all times, etc. We become the light of the world in so much more than just "doing good" it is an actual emission ffrom us, but it is faith that gets us there, not our feelings. faith is often confirmed by feeligns, but hte belief that it will be actually changes what we "feeL" no matter how we feel.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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As Abijah said Idols, OT style are objects which are directly worshipped. Talking about other things like NY Giants football team becoming an idol because I skip church one da to watch a playoff game, and calling them an idol is utter hogwash. Sounds like touchy feely RS lesson. And YES you do need tangible stuff from the Lord to add to worship. It is Satan that tries to make god so abstract. Abstract ill defined leads to confusion, chaos and opens the door for Satan to bring in his path. A John says faith is external and it is eternal. We can do nothing without faith in something, but faith in god leads to salvation.

God is real. He/they are people, purified but people. Anything you can bring forth to help you understand that better scripture, pictures, temples, friends, social groups is NOT an idol but a gift to help bring more understanding and faith. BTW better get used to living by faith, it only gets more true in the next life. Always when striving for things faith is required, farther up the ladder you get, the more specific and defined the faith must become.

Lately I have learned so much more about my Father (and my Mother) that I'm growing closer. The closer the more powerful the faith and the less abstract it all becomes. Eventually, it must become concrete, or we just don't get there and it becomes more abstract until it is taken away. Up or down but not sideways that is the path of this life.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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John Tavner wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:14 pmIt's not just a place, but people. Everyone gives off energy. Some people are more susceptible to it than others. Empaths get hit really hard by it. Most of my life I thought what I was "feeling" came from with in. What happened is I chose to obtain those feelings and when I began to think it came from within, I began to create it more. I can choose peace even in hell - even if I don't "feel" peace. I accept the peace that is there, but can't be felt for all the other competing energies. So one day I realized "I'm not actually annoyed or angry or frustrated or depressed" I began to see that it was those around me... especially when those feelings came out of nowhere. It is one thing to be in a funk fror a while and begin to feel depressed, it is another when I walk into a home and immediately feel depressed when there is nothing that would have instigated it. These energies, I believe, are spirits - they attempt to influence us and make us "think" we are something that we aren't. Only when understanding that often those feelings aren't us and they are outside trying to get in do we obtain power to say "no" you have no control over me and we can begin to emit the energy of Christ. Peace in all times, love in all times, etc. We become the light of the world in so much more than just "doing good" it is an actual emission ffrom us, but it is faith that gets us there, not our feelings. faith is often confirmed by feeligns, but hte belief that it will be actually changes what we "feeL" no matter how we feel.
Maybe it’s just semantics.
  • ”faith:
    To believe
  • believe: to hold an opinion : THINK
So faith is thought that precedes feeling.

Interesting to consider spiritual empathy - reading others... & codependency - habitual sense of obligation to tend to others’ feelings (or projection of how one imagines another is feeling). Psych-ology & spirituality are intertwined. They’re like 2 legs & 1 without the other is like hopping rather than walking or running. 😁

There are hints to suggest Jesus experienced some ostracizing - like when religious leaders were basically saying, “What nerve this bastard has to lecture us!” My guess is him not having a biological father & maybe also not being attractive - caused him to trust less in others’ opinions & more in God’s. And this in turn helped make weakness strength - rather than becoming bitter, he became more compassionate - but meek (with a “sheathed sword”). He still spoke truth, did what was right - even when others may have been displeased.

I can relate with your experience of realizing external forces were depressing you - holding you down. There’s much more I have to learn but I’m figuring out how to establish and maintain physical and emotional boundaries.

The idea of us being spiritually connected is incredible & I’ve experienced enough to believe it’s true. Distance doesn’t matter. I think that there are experiments to support this - & wonder if more is known than what is commonly shared.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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TheDuke wrote: May 21st, 2021, 9:12 pm As Abijah said Idols, OT style are objects which are directly worshipped. Talking about other things like NY Giants football team becoming an idol because I skip church one da to watch a playoff game, and calling them an idol is utter hogwash. Sounds like touchy feely RS lesson. And YES you do need tangible stuff from the Lord to add to worship. It is Satan that tries to make god so abstract. Abstract ill defined leads to confusion, chaos and opens the door for Satan to bring in his path. A John says faith is external and it is eternal. We can do nothing without faith in something, but faith in god leads to salvation.

God is real. He/they are people, purified but people. Anything you can bring forth to help you understand that better scripture, pictures, temples, friends, social groups is NOT an idol but a gift to help bring more understanding and faith. BTW better get used to living by faith, it only gets more true in the next life. Always when striving for things faith is required, farther up the ladder you get, the more specific and defined the faith must become.

Lately I have learned so much more about my Father (and my Mother) that I'm growing closer. The closer the more powerful the faith and the less abstract it all becomes. Eventually, it must become concrete, or we just don't get there and it becomes more abstract until it is taken away. Up or down but not sideways that is the path of this life.
You make me wonder about faith in the afterlife. I was under the impression that the veil is lifted so less need of faith. But maybe that’s incorrect.

Faith (belief which is thought) is internal, not external.

Idols are not just skipping church for a game. Idols take the place of god - like Jesus does for many. Idols are what you worship or prioritize above all - even above God. But other things, like praises of men, improving appearance, sports etc., can be idolatrous to a degree. This takes honesty. Most people think of idols as kneeling and worshipping statues - which is rare in our circles. What isn’t rare is more subtly placing other concerns above God/Truth/doing what’s right.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by John Tavner »

Thinker wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 4:37 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:14 pmIt's not just a place, but people. Everyone gives off energy. Some people are more susceptible to it than others. Empaths get hit really hard by it. Most of my life I thought what I was "feeling" came from with in. What happened is I chose to obtain those feelings and when I began to think it came from within, I began to create it more. I can choose peace even in hell - even if I don't "feel" peace. I accept the peace that is there, but can't be felt for all the other competing energies. So one day I realized "I'm not actually annoyed or angry or frustrated or depressed" I began to see that it was those around me... especially when those feelings came out of nowhere. It is one thing to be in a funk fror a while and begin to feel depressed, it is another when I walk into a home and immediately feel depressed when there is nothing that would have instigated it. These energies, I believe, are spirits - they attempt to influence us and make us "think" we are something that we aren't. Only when understanding that often those feelings aren't us and they are outside trying to get in do we obtain power to say "no" you have no control over me and we can begin to emit the energy of Christ. Peace in all times, love in all times, etc. We become the light of the world in so much more than just "doing good" it is an actual emission ffrom us, but it is faith that gets us there, not our feelings. faith is often confirmed by feeligns, but hte belief that it will be actually changes what we "feeL" no matter how we feel.
Maybe it’s just semantics.
  • ”faith:
    To believe
  • believe: to hold an opinion : THINK
So faith is thought that precedes feeling.

Interesting to consider spiritual empathy - reading others... & codependency - habitual sense of obligation to tend to others’ feelings (or projection of how one imagines another is feeling). Psych-ology & spirituality are intertwined. They’re like 2 legs & 1 without the other is like hopping rather than walking or running. 😁

There are hints to suggest Jesus experienced some ostracizing - like when religious leaders were basically saying, “What nerve this bastard has to lecture us!” My guess is him not having a biological father & maybe also not being attractive - caused him to trust less in others’ opinions & more in God’s. And this in turn helped make weakness strength - rather than becoming bitter, he became more compassionate - but meek (with a “sheathed sword”). He still spoke truth, did what was right - even when others may have been displeased.

I can relate with your experience of realizing external forces were depressing you - holding you down. There’s much more I have to learn but I’m figuring out how to establish and maintain physical and emotional boundaries.

The idea of us being spiritually connected is incredible & I’ve experienced enough to believe it’s true. Distance doesn’t matter. I think that there are experiments to support this - & wonder if more is known than what is commonly shared.
Perhaps it is semantics, but I don't subscribe to the english definition of faith.. The Greek is different - which means to have confidence in with an expectation - it is more than just having an opinion or just "believing" as we normally use the word. It is an indwelling place.

Yeah... I used todo the boundary thing... I was shown a different way, but I understand why people do set up boundaries... now I have a different definition of boundaries.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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John Tavner wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 6:46 pmPerhaps it is semantics, but I don't subscribe to the english definition of faith.. The Greek is different - which means to have confidence in with an expectation - it is more than just having an opinion or just "believing" as we normally use the word. It is an indwelling place.

Yeah... I used todo the boundary thing... I was shown a different way, but I understand why people do set up boundaries... now I have a different definition of boundaries.
I like the way you described faith - more inspiring.

Would you mind expanding on how you consider boundaries?

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Prana »

Thinker wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 4:37 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:14 pmIt's not just a place, but people. Everyone gives off energy. Some people are more susceptible to it than others. Empaths get hit really hard by it. Most of my life I thought what I was "feeling" came from with in. What happened is I chose to obtain those feelings and when I began to think it came from within, I began to create it more. I can choose peace even in hell - even if I don't "feel" peace. I accept the peace that is there, but can't be felt for all the other competing energies. So one day I realized "I'm not actually annoyed or angry or frustrated or depressed" I began to see that it was those around me... especially when those feelings came out of nowhere. It is one thing to be in a funk fror a while and begin to feel depressed, it is another when I walk into a home and immediately feel depressed when there is nothing that would have instigated it. These energies, I believe, are spirits - they attempt to influence us and make us "think" we are something that we aren't. Only when understanding that often those feelings aren't us and they are outside trying to get in do we obtain power to say "no" you have no control over me and we can begin to emit the energy of Christ. Peace in all times, love in all times, etc. We become the light of the world in so much more than just "doing good" it is an actual emission ffrom us, but it is faith that gets us there, not our feelings. faith is often confirmed by feeligns, but hte belief that it will be actually changes what we "feeL" no matter how we feel.
Maybe it’s just semantics.
  • ”faith:
    To believe
  • believe: to hold an opinion : THINK
So faith is thought that precedes feeling.

Interesting to consider spiritual empathy - reading others... & codependency - habitual sense of obligation to tend to others’ feelings (or projection of how one imagines another is feeling). Psych-ology & spirituality are intertwined. They’re like 2 legs & 1 without the other is like hopping rather than walking or running. 😁

There are hints to suggest Jesus experienced some ostracizing - like when religious leaders were basically saying, “What nerve this bastard has to lecture us!” My guess is him not having a biological father & maybe also not being attractive - caused him to trust less in others’ opinions & more in God’s. And this in turn helped make weakness strength - rather than becoming bitter, he became more compassionate - but meek (with a “sheathed sword”). He still spoke truth, did what was right - even when others may have been displeased.

I can relate with your experience of realizing external forces were depressing you - holding you down. There’s much more I have to learn but I’m figuring out how to establish and maintain physical and emotional boundaries.

The idea of us being spiritually connected is incredible & I’ve experienced enough to believe it’s true. Distance doesn’t matter. I think that there are experiments to support this - & wonder if more is known than what is commonly shared.
I’m instantly reminded of what quantum physics calls entanglement. It’s completely in line with the godly concept that our perception of distance and time on this three dimensional plane is limited beyond normal imagination.
Every era of humanity has lived in darkness compared to future discoveries that would seem like magic at the time. We are no different. We are infants in the reality of unseen energetic potential.

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Re: Is God not enough?

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Prana wrote: May 24th, 2021, 12:23 am I’m instantly reminded of what quantum physics calls entanglement. It’s completely in line with the godly concept that our perception of distance and time on this three dimensional plane is limited beyond normal imagination.
Every era of humanity has lived in darkness compared to future discoveries that would seem like magic at the time. We are no different. We are infants in the reality of unseen energetic potential.
I’m excited you brought this up. The notion of quantum entanglement seems to help explain spiritual and maybe other experiences.

Just watched this basic run down of quantum entanglement:
https://youtu.be/fkAAbXPEAtU

This may seem crazy but I’ve wondered if the metal monoliths found in Big horn Ut and in the Romanian city of Piatra Neamț were some type of quantum entanglement or other experiment. I also wonder why such locations were chosen. After praying, I woke up to the word, “Bukarest.” About that time, US military action was moved there.

Seemingly, the upsurge in UFO media serves a couple purposes:
1) A way or excuse to hide technological advances desired to keep secret
2) Eventually they’ll be used to deceive and manipulate people (ie fake a 2nd coming of Christ)

Those are more stressful worldly issues.
The spiritual implications are awesome - but I feel like a preschooler trying to understand how the Spirit world works - how our spirits connect. Still, it’s inspiring and gives me hope.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

What are words? Just symbolic representations - no biggie.

Image

One branch of philosophy that I kind of dismissed (bunched along with esthetics, logic and math) - may be more significant than previously considered: Linguistics. Words do have power!
  • ”The word was with God and the Word was God” - John 1:1
God is also associated with truth. How is truth discovered? By words - playing with ideas - through speech, writing - words. They are important and yet as symbols, words aren’t that which they represent.

Disagreement as to meaning of words would happen much more if we read each other’s minds. Maybe the inability to see through everyone is a blessing - to live the illusion we all see everything the exact same way - maybe a reminder of a heavenly, more unified home. But this life seems to have the purpose of individually growing and learning to see uniquely to help contribute to better vision for all. Yet again, we have the ability to feel connected (or any feeling) whenever we want - by selective focus. It may seem the world is crazy with each’s favorite dogma - but there are many more points of agreement. Since programmed to focus on threats, concerted effort needs to be applied to focus on positives, commonalities.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by ransomme »

Thinker wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 6:46 pmPerhaps it is semantics, but I don't subscribe to the english definition of faith.. The Greek is different - which means to have confidence in with an expectation - it is more than just having an opinion or just "believing" as we normally use the word. It is an indwelling place.

Yeah... I used todo the boundary thing... I was shown a different way, but I understand why people do set up boundaries... now I have a different definition of boundaries.
I like the way you described faith - more inspiring.

Would you mind expanding on how you consider boundaries?
The Greek meaning seems much more accurate in a Gospel context. I see hope more as a desire/belief and faith as an action. Once one has hope, then one acts on that hope, ie exercises faith (shows faith by acting on hope). This is the 'experimenting' that Alma talks about in chapter 32. Then to top it off charity comes in as the purest motivation for our desires, and actions. Charity should underline, inform our desires/hope and our actions/exercise of faith.

So having faith in Christ is acting in harmony with His Gospel because you believe Him, his words. Faith is the actions, the fruit, the evidence of what one truly believes/hopes.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

This is such a silly topic.

That literally anything I need / use / enjoy in my life which is distinct from God Himself = idolatry.

Really asinine. Its like, if you think idolatry is so all-encompassing and ubiquitous then maybe one needs to go live a sterile, barren existence in a cave somewhere, to escape it.

"Is God not enough?" Guess what, God giving us separate things distinct from Himself is very much a thing, is very much not idolatry, and the obvious truth presented in the scriptures is that He would say the exact same thing.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

ransomme wrote: August 20th, 2021, 3:18 am
Thinker wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 8:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 6:46 pmPerhaps it is semantics, but I don't subscribe to the english definition of faith.. The Greek is different - which means to have confidence in with an expectation - it is more than just having an opinion or just "believing" as we normally use the word. It is an indwelling place.

Yeah... I used todo the boundary thing... I was shown a different way, but I understand why people do set up boundaries... now I have a different definition of boundaries.
I like the way you described faith - more inspiring.

Would you mind expanding on how you consider boundaries?
The Greek meaning seems much more accurate in a Gospel context. I see hope more as a desire/belief and faith as an action. Once one has hope, then one acts on that hope, ie exercises faith (shows faith by acting on hope). This is the 'experimenting' that Alma talks about in chapter 32. Then to top it off charity comes in as the purest motivation for our desires, and actions. Charity should underline, inform our desires/hope and our actions/exercise of faith.

So having faith in Christ is acting in harmony with His Gospel because you believe Him, his words. Faith is the actions, the fruit, the evidence of what one truly believes/hopes.
True!
“Faith without works is dead.”

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

abijah` wrote: August 20th, 2021, 11:29 am This is such a silly topic.

That literally anything I need / use / enjoy in my life which is distinct from God Himself = idolatry.

Really asinine. Its like, if you think idolatry is so all-encompassing and ubiquitous then maybe one needs to go live a sterile, barren existence in a cave somewhere, to escape it.

"Is God not enough?" Guess what, God giving us separate things distinct from Himself is very much a thing, is very much not idolatry, and the obvious truth presented in the scriptures is that He would say the exact same thing.
You make a valid point how not everything except God is idolatry - obviously especially when you consider “the kingdom of God is within” and Intelligent Design permeates all.

Still, many put up other things before doing what is the greater GOoD…
Ie:
*Human sacrifice scapegoating
*Pretending Christ lied in Luke 17:20-21 & mis-hoping things go to hell ASAP so the fairy tale lie will come true.
*The DS will save the day! So no need to do anything.
*Addictions - anything that harms more than helps.

My main point was dealing with religious dogma that distracts from God. It’s like people NEED it - God isn’t enough. And maybe God knew that few could genuinely only worship God. So there’s that 1st of the lower basic commandments - knowing that most won’t really keep it - but at least trying is better than not. And in some cases - especially in starting out - false gods help prepare for the real God. Eg: Believing in Santa helps belief in Christ, which helps belief in God.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

Thinker wrote: August 24th, 2021, 11:00 am Still, many put up other things before doing what is the greater GOoD…
Ie:
*Human sacrifice scapegoating
God was the one who decided the terms whereby His Plan would be carried out, and He chose the death, and the Resurrection of His Son.

You are no one, to call Him and His purposes wrong, or immoral.

I suspect premortal Lucifer, after having discovered (thru illegitimate means) the true intention of God's plan (and how it included the ultimate sacrifice), its what led him to the eternally-damning, perspective-tainting conclusion that the correct course of action was to come up with a better plan that didn't include "human scapegoat sacrifice".

Interesting how you disagreed with him then, and now find yourself flirting with those very selfsame, Christ-denying, poisonous doctrines.

Prayers heading your way.
*Pretending Christ lied in Luke 17:20-21 & mis-hoping things go to hell ASAP so the fairy tale lie will come true.
I don't know what this means.

But I do know that your attempt to interpret scriptures through the lens of post-enlightenment psychology and philosophical abstractions will result in fruitlessness.
*The DS will save the day! So no need to do anything.
No he won't, and the one who does nothing is the one who regresses.

It seems more likely to me the DS will ultimately serve as the agent whose advent is the catalyst that results in things getting much worse, in order to set the stage for Christ to be the One who comes and saves the day.
*Addictions - anything that harms more than helps.
Again, I don't know what this means, in the context we're operating in.
My main point was dealing with religious dogma that distracts from God.

...and your main method is to conflate true doctrine with hollow dogma, and seem to have very little capability and/or desire to make the distinction.
It’s like people NEED it - God isn’t enough.
You're painting with such a broad brush.

And also - yeah, maybe some people do need a schoolmaster before they are ready to fully and truly interface with such a massive, intense Being as God.

Who are you to condemn their need for a stepping stone if they need one, or God's willingness to provide them with such should He see fit to?
And maybe God knew that few could genuinely only worship God
Yeah.

But you see, to our varying degrees, ALL of us are hypocrites. ALL of us fall short of being able to truly worship God, in full sincerity and genuineness of heart. There is none righteous, not one. You simply pointing out and complaining about this fact brings nothing new to the table, helps no one, and edifies nothing.
So there’s that 1st of the lower basic commandments - knowing that most won’t really keep it - but at least trying is better than not. And in some cases - especially in starting out - false gods help prepare for the real God. Eg: Believing in Santa helps belief in Christ, which helps belief in God.
Idolatry entails worship.

Your struggle, it seems to me, stems from your lack of understanding of what worship is.

I think its wild that you've managed to find someone who worships Santa Claus.

There are things I need, things I want, things I enjoy, etc.

But there is one sole thing that I worship: the Lord.
Last edited by abijah` on August 24th, 2021, 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Original_Intent »

The older I get, the more I come to understand at the most basic level of reality that nothing BUT God is enough.

But from my personal experience, we definitely want to try for anything and everything else to be enough.

I feel bad how often God has been a last resort rather than a first choice.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

abijah` wrote: August 24th, 2021, 12:31 pm God was the one who decided the terms whereby His Plan would be carried out, and He chose the death, and the Resurrection of His Son.

You are no one, to call Him and His purposes wrong, or immoral…

But there is one sole thing that I worship: the Lord.
^ Contradicts.
You are worshipping false philosophies of men mingled with scripture & shaming anyone who questions your false gods. Killing is immoral. Passing the buck (scapegoating) is evil. It doesn’t matter if dogma has said otherwise for hundreds of years. God is a god of truth, not immoral lies. The horrific belief in human sacrifice ought to be obvious enough as evil. Drinking blood - or pretending to - is part of satanic rituals. The anti-Christ Spirit struck at the heart of Christianity’s teachings, warping them to mean the opposite of what Christ is about. But these lies have been believed for sooooo long and with such tribalism, that few dare even consider if it might not be true.

I understand not everyone cares to learn about the origins of their dogmas… like how the nature of Jesus (Yeshua) was voted on with mafia-type pressure…. & how Eusebius, father of Church History said that lying is needed because people couldn’t handle the truth (this was way before Jack Nicholson said it). Personally, I cannot help but love truth and want to learn - even when it is painful & shatters my weak foundation. At least it allows me to build a stronger foundation - because the storms are coming.

You made a good point about how we cannot help but basically have belief crutches - false gods but potentially stepping stones or stumbling blocks to the real God. A question to honestly & regularly ask ourselves:
Is what I believe/act-out bringing me closer to or further from God?

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

abijah` wrote: August 20th, 2021, 11:29 am This is such a silly topic.

That literally anything I need / use / enjoy in my life which is distinct from God Himself = idolatry.

Really asinine. Its like, if you think idolatry is so all-encompassing and ubiquitous then maybe one needs to go live a sterile, barren existence in a cave somewhere, to escape it.

"Is God not enough?" Guess what, God giving us separate things distinct from Himself is very much a thing, is very much not idolatry, and the obvious truth presented in the scriptures is that He would say the exact same thing.
God is in all things, though

abijah`
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

Thinker wrote: August 25th, 2021, 1:15 pm ^ Contradicts.
Explain how then. You can't, because it doesn't.
You are worshipping false philosophies of men mingled with scripture & shaming anyone who questions your false gods.
I am maintaining the infinite and timeless veracity of eternal, saving truths.
Killing is immoral.
What an infantile reasoning process, to arrive at such a juvenile, black-and-white conclusion on such a gradient and complex moral issue as killing -- as if all killing was just killing. What frail, pithy logic to apply to such a topic.

Cold-blooded murder is not equal to executing a murderer, or killing a deadly assailant.
Passing the buck (scapegoating) is evil.
Unless it is by God's design and mandate.
It doesn’t matter if dogma has said otherwise for hundreds of years.
It does matter if God's revealed truth has always pointed to this fulcrum`principle, from the very dawn of time. You are not more enlightened, and your sheer desperation to conflate false dogmas of man with true doctrines from God. In this you echo the strategy of the beguilesome serpent in the garden, when he questioned whether or not the command to eat the forbidden fruit wasactually a commandment from God or not (she only had Adam's word on the matter). Its theological/logical gaslighting and its disingenuous.
God is a god of truth, not immoral lies.
Correct.
The horrific belief in human sacrifice ought to be obvious enough as evil.
And it is. Jesus was beyond a merely human sacrifice, and it was not carried out by the fallible will of man.
Drinking blood - or pretending to - is part of satanic rituals.
Indeed.

And why do satanic people do this?

Because its a mockery of the Sacrament.
The anti-Christ Spirit struck at the heart of Christianity’s teachings, warping them to mean the opposite of what Christ is about.
You take your conclusions, beliefs and doctrines as being self-evidently and objectively true when they in fact are not. You take your interpretations and contortions of Christ's teachings as being the original, distilled truth when in fact it is not.
But these lies have been believed for sooooo long and with such tribalism, that few dare even consider if it might not be true.
Ye, call it tribalism, keep throwing out these irrelevant, distinction-obscuring terms and labels, it doesn't change the fact that these have little bearing or significance where objective, absolute truth is concerned.

Associating Christian doctrine with abstract phenomena like "tribalism" and "scapegoating", its just a pitiful attempt to portray an illusory connecting-link between eternal truth, and the psychology buzzterms you love so much.
I understand not everyone cares to learn about the origins of their dogmas…
Wow, imagine actually thinking unironically that that stuff is the source root of the doctrine of Sacrifice and the Christian premise. Amazing.
like how the nature of Jesus (Yeshua) was voted on with mafia-type pressure….
Yeah, totally invalidates my argument.

Do you eat fallacies for breakfast every morning?

Irrelevant correlation after irrelevant correlation, false association after false association. The natural end of an argument founded upon no substantial basis or coherence.
& how Eusebius, father of Church History said that lying is needed because people couldn’t handle the truth (this was way before Jack Nicholson said it). Personally, I cannot help but love truth and want to learn - even when it is painful & shatters my weak foundation. At least it allows me to build a stronger foundation - because the storms are coming.
You have the chronic proclivity to unwarrantedly associate/group whatever ideas you don't find suitable with other, unrelated concepts that are in wanting of credibility.

As if the stuff you're talking about have literally anything to do with the verity of eternal blueprint of God's Plan, which hinges upon an infinite Sacrifice by One willing to make it.
You made a good point about how we cannot help but basically have belief crutches - false gods but potentially stepping stones or stumbling blocks to the real God.
Oh. My Days.

Stop calling it "false gods".

HOW MANY TIMES do I have to inform you on the distinction, "FALSE GODS" MEANS WORSHIP.

Please learn, and see that you don't un-learn, that we do not automatically engage in idolatry by using literally anything that we need, like or enjoy.
A question to honestly & regularly ask ourselves:
Is what I believe/act-out bringing me closer to or further from God?
Great point, and principle to live by :)

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

abijah` wrote: August 29th, 2021, 5:15 pm
The horrific belief in human sacrifice ought to be obvious enough as evil.
And it is. Jesus was beyond a merely human sacrifice, and it was not carried out by the fallible will of man.
Drinking blood - or pretending to - is part of satanic rituals.
Indeed.

And why do satanic people do this?

Because its a mockery of the Sacrament.
This is my favorite line of reasoning because you can literally justify anything by saying "Oh, [insert anything] is wrong but [it's almost exact equivalent] is right because a well-funded organization told me so. [the anything] is just a mockery of [it's almost exactly equivalent]. Evil and good are pretty much exactly the same. You just have to know which one's right because God did it. How do you know? Did I mention the well-funded corporation and their marketing literature?"

abijah`
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by abijah` »

harakim wrote: August 30th, 2021, 12:22 am This is my favorite line of reasoning because you can literally justify anything by saying "Oh, [insert anything] is wrong but [it's almost exact equivalent] is right because a well-funded organization told me so. [the anything] is just a mockery of [it's almost exactly equivalent]. Evil and good are pretty much exactly the same. You just have to know which one's right because God did it. How do you know? Did I mention the well-funded corporation and their marketing literature?"
Right, and the point you make is indeed salient, in that the logic I employed can certainly be misapplied, applied too grossly or serve as illegitimate grounds, upon which to fabricate illusory dichotomies and open up the channels and streams whereby falsehoods and deceptions are capable of breaching through, penetrating the membrane, and potentially germinating from within, a spiritually-cancerous assault on the integrity of one's theological foundation.

If indeed, all satan can do is rip off God, it can become a simple thing for fallen man to justify any, or perhaps even every, satanic practice and doctrine as being mere "perversions" of things with veritable origins. Hollow imitations of true, virtuous things, that can and perhaps even should be "restored" to the Lord's proper pattern. Leading to the potential justification of sinning, while in reality being deceived they are doing whatever practice "the proper way, the Lord's righteous version". A foundation of sand.

Nevertheless, it likewise remains true that a chief modus operandi of the evil one is through subverted symbolism and contorted imagery thru perspective-derailing caricatures intended to falsely associate that which is Divine as being directly intermingled w/ the profane. The closest satan is capable of coming, in terms of his desire to sully the Kingdom of Heaven and render it -- even if only in the tiniest of measure -- to some degree, unclean; and therefore fundamentally compromised in its essential character as a place wherein "no unclean thing" is able to cohabit.

In any case, I fail to see the full significance of your "well-funded organisation" label, assuming there's one to look for. Look at me, do I look like a tbm :lol: I have few enough scruples when it comes to challenging LDS dogma and orthodoxy. I regard "official" LDS doctrinal interpretations with minuscule (if any) authoritative weight.

That being said, to call into question the correctness of the Sacramental emblems simply on account of their endorsement from a certain "well-funded organisation", seems to me a compromised premise of reasoning. Just because the Church has Phat`$tacks, and because she is and has been often wrong, historically -- it doesn't mean they're wrong about literally everything, or that the foundation structure of its theology (such as the Atonement and its attendant Sacrament-memorial)
is inherently faulty. Guilt by association seems a flimsy anchor.

But the precarious reality remains: that any variety of improper and unseemly conduct could hypothetically be justified and carried out operating under the erroneous principle that all satanic things are secretly godly.

Thus the need to grab ahold the word of God when endeavouring to judge the truthfulness of something - manifest most typically in the forms of
  • Prophets (Yes yes, i am aware of the asterisk on President Nelson's and the other Brethren's name, I am aware that for the most part the Lord has seemingly, based on whatever reason, seen fit that they should function primarily as administrators, stewards over the God's vineyard and responsible for its upkeep whilst the Lord of the vineyard is away until his inevitable return home)
  • Scriptures
  • Personal Revelation
"pff cmon abijah, thats practically plagiarised directly from the lesson manual!", sure, admittedly guilty, but the truth of the principle stands all the same.

The fact remains, that the devil is a proper copycat, trying to indirectly "get at" God by deliberately intermingling holy things with detestable things. That God's sacred Blueprint of His Plan and Nature, is the template from which satan fabricated the perversion which was his own plan, and prospering the perditious outcome of his own, forever-damned nature is a truth that grows ever riper in pertinence and prescience.

Christ's truth and satan's facade certainly do have a high degree of potential in looking pretty damn similar (when perceived from certain angles), and have certain striking mutual characteristics.

Thus the ever-present need for the discernment of, and the general renewing/re-birthing of the Holy Spirit altogether. Something referenced by members often, and utilised by almost none of them. But is nonetheless a very real thing - a personal, living criterion for an unfailing touchstone. A heaven-imbued set of Spirit-illumined lenses thru which to perceive things as they really are.
harakim wrote: August 29th, 2021, 12:14 pm God is in all things, though
Likewise salient.

To regard any or all of man's broad range of normal interfacings w/ the myriad diverse aspects of Creation as tantamount to idolatrous worship speaks to me as being derived from a perception that's been (mis)informed by a skewed lens, when in fact, because He has imbued His Creation with the imprint of His Character and after the pattern of His Nature, we in fact honour God and glorify Him, in our enjoyment of the created world by engaging with its various facets and by using its elements according to their divinely-ordained purpose and function. To suggest such is idolatry is the mirror`opposite of the truth.

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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by Thinker »

abijah` wrote: August 29th, 2021, 5:15 pm 1) Explain how then…

2) I am maintaining the infinite and timeless veracity of eternal, saving truths.

3)What an infantile reasoning process, to arrive at such a juvenile, black-and-white conclusion on such a gradient and complex moral issue as killing -- as if all killing was just killing. What frail, pithy logic to apply to such a topic.

Cold-blooded murder is not equal to executing a murderer, or killing a deadly assailant.

Unless it is by God's design and mandate.

4) And why do satanic people do this?
Because its a mockery of the Sacrament.

5) You take your conclusions, beliefs and doctrines as being self-evidently and objectively true when they in fact are not. You take your interpretations and contortions of Christ's teachings as being the original, distilled truth when in fact it is not.

Ye, call it tribalism, keep throwing out these irrelevant, distinction-obscuring terms and labels, it doesn't change the fact that these have little bearing or significance where objective, absolute truth is concerned.

Associating Christian doctrine with abstract phenomena like "tribalism" and "scapegoating", its just a pitiful attempt to portray an illusory connecting-link between eternal truth, and the psychology buzzterms you love so much.

Do you eat fallacies for breakfast every morning?

Irrelevant correlation after irrelevant correlation, false association after false association. The natural end of an argument founded upon no substantial basis or coherence.

6)
& how Eusebius, father of Church History said that lying is needed because people couldn’t handle the truth (this was way before Jack Nicholson said it). Personally, I cannot help but love truth and want to learn - even when it is painful & shatters my weak foundation. At least it allows me to build a stronger foundation - because the storms are coming.
You have the chronic proclivity to unwarrantedly associate/group whatever ideas you don't find suitable with other, unrelated concepts that are in wanting of credibility.

7) As if the stuff you're talking about have literally anything to do with the verity of eternal blueprint of God's Plan, which hinges upon an infinite Sacrifice by One willing to make it.

Stop calling it "false gods".

HOW MANY TIMES do I have to inform you on the distinction, "FALSE GODS" MEANS WORSHIP.

8) Please learn, and see that you don't un-learn, that we do not automatically engage in idolatry by using literally anything that we need, like or enjoy.
1) By quoting you, wasn’t it obvious? First you stated your belief in human sacrifice scapegoating as central to your belief in God, then you claimed you didn’t have other gods before God.

2) No, to try to pass the buck is exactly what is NOT saving but is damming - holding you back from taking response-ability & growing.

3) You seem ticked off that I dare question your false god. When experiencing anger, logic tends to go out the window, thus you trying to justify killing as godly. The negative Spirit that comes through when you try to shame me - says more than a thick book could.

4) Pretending to drink blood is godly - to you?

5) Please specify my exact quotes to prove your claims.

6) You mean, how dare I study Christian Origins & draw from it? viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52528&p=960062&hil ... ns#p960062

7) Yes, and many are misguided to worship Jesus over God. You see engraved images of a white Jesus in places of WORSHIP.

8) I never suggested all we use or enjoy we place before God. Of course not! Only those things or ideas that we prioritize above God are false gods. It doesn’t matter what you SAY you worship - actions speak louder than words.

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harakim
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Re: Is God not enough?

Post by harakim »

abijah` wrote: August 30th, 2021, 1:09 am
harakim wrote: August 30th, 2021, 12:22 am This is my favorite line of reasoning because you can literally justify anything by saying "Oh, [insert anything] is wrong but [it's almost exact equivalent] is right because a well-funded organization told me so. [the anything] is just a mockery of [it's almost exactly equivalent]. Evil and good are pretty much exactly the same. You just have to know which one's right because God did it. How do you know? Did I mention the well-funded corporation and their marketing literature?"
Thus the ever-present need for the discernment of, and the general renewing/re-birthing of the Holy Spirit altogether. Something referenced by members often, and utilised by almost none of them. But is nonetheless a very real thing - a personal, living criterion for an unfailing touchstone. A heaven-imbued set of Spirit-illumined lenses thru which to perceive things as they really are.
I agree with this statement! While you can take man made sources into advisement, that is all we really have to confirm or deny those sources as true.


abijah` wrote: August 30th, 2021, 1:09 am In any case, I fail to see the full significance of your "well-funded organisation" label, assuming there's one to look for. Look at me, do I look like a tbm :lol: I have few enough scruples when it comes to challenging LDS dogma and orthodoxy. I regard "official" LDS doctrinal interpretations with minuscule (if any) authoritative weight.
The LDS church has money now, but the leaders of Christianity have been paired with wealth since at least the 4th century. The history of Christianity and wealth are pretty much one and the same.

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