Is God not enough?

[Thinker]

Definitely heretical so brace yourself.

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods. Dogma shames anyone who dares question these idols or gods - yet the biggest red flag for the adversary’s approach is to try to deny free agency & shift the focus away from God & shifting response-ability - which ironically forcing belief in Eg., human sacrifice scapegoating does.

“Thou shalt have no other gods.”
Why not?

To be clear, I appreciate & see truth in scriptures & I believe in Christ as the ultimate ideal to follow, but I don’t replace God with him. And I don’t trust in fallible scripture authors/editors etc. Even though I see Catholicism responsible for corruption of many Christian ideas, I still value truths from it... Eg:

Who God is & who God isn’t:
https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc

God is not “a” being, but being itself... “I AM that I AM.” “Be still and know that I AM God.” Who we are minus physicality, are children of God. “The kingdom of God is within us”! God may be the effort of striving for the highest GOoD - remembering & living our first estate - our divine nature. In doing this, sometimes religious ideas, rituals etc., help & sometimes hinder. It’s ignorant to assume we can blindly accept whatever others tell us & that “opposition in all things” doesn’t apply to religion.

The idea that God/GOoD is revealed through its opposite is hard to fathom & I can see how this truth is twisted to pretend evil is good & vice versa. Truth & integrity need to be prioritized - & even then, it may be a maze in figuring out truth & good. God created everything & in a sense is in & part of everything - omnipresent. So, “God is not enough” - seems impossible except God is hierarchal - striving for higher & higher goods. Worshiping God - who is intelligent (“to choose between”) is being selective. Thinking or expressing belief in God is not enough to experience God. Worshipping God is striving for what’s best, through active faith (trial & error).

Maybe some of these idols are attempts to experience God & may not be idols but rather “divination tools” if they help connect to God - not distract away from God. But because the adversary has infiltrated religions, caution is needed. Replacing god with idols - it will never be enough (hence addictions, feeling unfulfilled etc). Maybe that is how you know the difference between godly aids & idols - experiencing God is enough.

[Prana]

Definitely heretical so brace yourself.

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods. Dogma shames anyone who dares question these idols or gods - yet the biggest red flag for the adversary’s approach is to try to deny free agency & shift the focus away from God & shifting response-ability - which ironically forcing belief in Eg., human sacrifice scapegoating does.

“Thou shalt have no other gods.”
Why not?

To be clear, I appreciate & see truth in scriptures & I believe in Christ as the ultimate ideal to follow, but I don’t replace God with him. And I don’t trust in fallible scripture authors/editors etc. Even though I see Catholicism responsible for corruption of many Christian ideas, I still value truths from it... Eg:

Who God is & who God isn’t:
https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc

God is not “a” being, but being itself... “I AM that I AM.”
Who we are minus physicality, are children of God. “The kingdom of God is within us”! God may be the effort of striving for the highest GOoD - remembering & living our first estate - our divine nature. In doing this, sometimes religious ideas, rituals etc., help & sometimes hinder. It’s ignorant to assume we can blindly accept whatever others tell us & that “opposition in all things” doesn’t apply to religion.

The idea that God/GOoD is revealed through its opposite is hard to fathom & I can see how this truth is twisted to pretend evil is good & vice versa. Truth & integrity need to be prioritized - & even then, it may be a maze in figuring out truth & good. God created everything & in a sense is in & part of everything - omnipresent. So, “God is not enough” - seems impossible except God is hierarchal - striving for higher & higher goods. Worshiping God - who is intelligent (“to choose between”) is being selective. Thinking or expressing belief in God is not enough to experience God. Worshipping God is striving for what’s best, through active faith (trial & error).

Maybe some of these idols are attempts to experience God & may not be idols but rather “divination tools” if they help connect to God - not distract away from God. But because the adversary has infiltrated religions, caution is needed. Replacing god with idols - it will never be enough (hence addictions, feeling unfulfilled etc). Maybe that is how you know the difference between godly aids & idols - experiencing God is enough.

Very much appreciate contemplating your thoughts. The name fits.

[Thinker]

Very much appreciate contemplating your thoughts. The name fits.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[nightlight]

Definitely heretical so brace yourself.

It seems like for all religious people (including me) - God is NOT enough. We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods. Dogma shames anyone who dares question these idols or gods - yet the biggest red flag for the adversary’s approach is to try to deny free agency & shift the focus away from God & shifting response-ability - which ironically forcing belief in Eg., human sacrifice scapegoating does.

“Thou shalt have no other gods.”
Why not?

To be clear, I appreciate & see truth in scriptures & I believe in Christ as the ultimate ideal to follow, but I don’t replace God with him. And I don’t trust in fallible scripture authors/editors etc. Even though I see Catholicism responsible for corruption of many Christian ideas, I still value truths from it... Eg:

Who God is & who God isn’t:
https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc

God is not “a” being, but being itself... “I AM that I AM.” “Be still and know that I AM God.” Who we are minus physicality, are children of God. “The kingdom of God is within us”! God may be the effort of striving for the highest GOoD - remembering & living our first estate - our divine nature. In doing this, sometimes religious ideas, rituals etc., help & sometimes hinder. It’s ignorant to assume we can blindly accept whatever others tell us & that “opposition in all things” doesn’t apply to religion.

The idea that God/GOoD is revealed through its opposite is hard to fathom & I can see how this truth is twisted to pretend evil is good & vice versa. Truth & integrity need to be prioritized - & even then, it may be a maze in figuring out truth & good. God created everything & in a sense is in & part of everything - omnipresent. So, “God is not enough” - seems impossible except God is hierarchal - striving for higher & higher goods. Worshiping God - who is intelligent (“to choose between”) is being selective. Thinking or expressing belief in God is not enough to experience God. Worshipping God is striving for what’s best, through active faith (trial & error).

Maybe some of these idols are attempts to experience God & may not be idols but rather “divination tools” if they help connect to God - not distract away from God. But because the adversary has infiltrated religions, caution is needed. Replacing god with idols - it will never be enough (hence addictions, feeling unfulfilled etc). Maybe that is how you know the difference between godly aids & idols - experiencing God is enough.

Jesus is God.

You using scripture to say He is not is a fallacy... based upon your view of scripture. Even when you say you take what you as truth and reject what you see as false, its still just circular logic.

Jesus is God whether you believe this or not. It's just a reality.

If you dealing with a people who have no evidence of the Living Christ....then you might an argument.
But you don't, and you're not. The only folks that you could speak to are the one's that don't know.

Jesus is God...and is a man with a body.

That is what separates us. I am a witness and you are not( no offense... Mrs lady, I do like and love you and don't count myself as better).

You grew up with people who only heard of Him. You grew up with people who claimed to be Special Witnesses of Him but have never seen Him...it's not hard to see why so many mormons (and non Mormons) tread your well-worn path.

You may think that the Father gives people like me these illusionary experiences because it's how He works with us on our level....But this is just another example of how you know not of Jesus of Nazareth.

Maybe it would take this to make you believe:

"Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can ccommand in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea."

Or maybe it will take this to make you know:

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
__________

You'll see one way or the other.

[Thinker]

Nightlight,
I appreciate your good intent to help me see how you see. But kindly, since we’ve gone on this merrry-go-round multiple times already, let’s agree to disagree.

One thing we can probably agree on is the importance of considering “what do your beliefs do - what impact do they have?” What are the fruits of shaming someone who doesn’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating? Does it really seem Christlike?

[John Tavner]

Nightlight,
I appreciate your good intent to help me see how you see. But kindly, since we’ve gone on this merrry-go-round multiple times already, let’s agree to disagree.

One thing we can probably agree on is the importance of considering “what do your beliefs do - what impact do they have?” What are the fruits of shaming someone who doesn’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating? Does it really seem Christlike?

One of the critical aspects most Christians get wrong is the idea that people will be condemned to hell if they don't believe in Christ. That is the wrong perspective in my opinion. I believe scripture shows us that we are already condemned to hell (in one sense we are already in a Hell) Christ came to snatch us out if we believe on Him and His name. So the message is not to "shame" you, the message is to save you. Christ didn't come to the world to condemn it, but to save it. Thus it is belief on Him that saves us from hell. Guilt, shame and condemnation are never from God. God convicts but doesn't shame - shame comes from within, so does guilt and condemnation. We are free if our identity is in Christ- it isn't my shame it is Christ's, it isn't a condemnation of me, it is a condemnation of the truth in me. If I believe, I can't feel guilt because I become convicted and change- guilt has no hold on me, because I am free of my sin because of Him. So in the true gospel, shame isn't a part of it, it is just Satans way of having twisted truth and to lord over people. Which is why Paul says we aren't saved by works, but by grace through faith. It is faith in Christ, in being set free tat gets us there, so I can't "shame" anyone for not believing, I can just attempt to convince them of the truth and pray that the Lord reveal Himself to them in some way shape or form and that their eyes will be open to see and their heart to feel, and their ears to be open.

[Prana]

It’s ok to not know. I used to testify that I did. Christianity has transformed the extreme end of the spectrum of light and dark into an anthropomorphic personage called Jesus Christ. He is their embodiment of pure love. He will accept us as we gravitate towards that end and become one with it.

[abijah`]

We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods.

Well Jesus is the God of the soon-to-be New Creation, the soon-upcoming "new heaven and new earth". Simple fact, just setting that on the table.

Most pagan temples have the statue-image of their god/chief-god in the centre of the temple-garden`sanctuary.

But in Israel's temple, there is only empty space between the cherubim of the Ark, His throne.

No idol image in His temple, because we are the idol images.

Yes idols are bad - a corrupted focus and inverted manner of worship.

But also be mindful that what you might first be inclined to call an idol (counterfeit of the true thing), someone else might see as a vehicle (provides and augments access to the real thing).

God is too big to be experienced in His awesome Totality, most of the time, at least I think its safe to assume - so its perfectly natural to worship Him and come to know Him through various and diverse means. Through various relationships, or trials/experiences or participating in the diverse means of revelation in your personal life.

Idols are just perversions of something based in truth, pale counterfeits of the real thing.

But that doesn't mean God doesn't also give us whatever various things that serve the purpose of augmenting our worship. Like beautiful art for example - its easy to see how it could be perverted into an idol, sure. But conversely, in the eye of the sincere and properly-aligned disciple - the beautiful art becomes just an added vehicle of tapping into the transcendent, experiencing God in that isolated sphere/context, and interfacing with His Spirit.

Its all about where the the heart is, the intent and focused attention of the one doing the worshipping, and sometimes God gives us different things, images or experiences etc to help us to interface with Him, to be able to hone in and calibrate w/ the frequency of His Spirit as we go about the natural tone & rhythm of our lives, over time transforming the personal melody of our individual lives, daily as we go.

Were one to accuse another of idolatry, they may not be so much as making a claim regarding their behaviour, so much as the nature of their heart whilst they were doing it. In some instances at least. Ultimately any-and-every question of idolatry comes back and traces down to the inward intention of the heart, that's the root ground for it, that's where the distinction between idolatrous intent and true intent lies.

[John Tavner]

We need idols to attach to God - or even make idols (like Jesus) into gods.

Well Jesus is the God of the soon-to-be New Creation, the soon-upcoming "new heaven and new earth". Simple fact, just setting that on the table.

Most pagan temples have the statue-image of their god/chief-god in the centre of the temple-garden`sanctuary.

But in Israel's temple, there is only empty space between the cherubim of the Ark, His throne.

No idol image in His temple, because we are the idol images.

Yes idols are bad - a corrupted focus and inverted manner of worship.

But also be mindful that what you might first be inclined to call an idol (counterfeit of the true thing), someone else might see as a vehicle (provides and augments access to the real thing).

God is too big to be experienced in His awesome Totality, most of the time, at least I think its safe to assume - so its perfectly natural to worship Him and come to know Him through various and diverse means. Through various relationships, or trials/experiences or participating in the diverse means of revelation in your personal life.

Idols are just perversions of something based in truth, pale counterfeits of the real thing.

But that doesn't mean God doesn't also give us whatever various things that serve the purpose of augmenting our worship. Like beautiful art for example - its easy to see how it could be perverted into an idol, sure. But conversely, in the eye of the sincere and properly-aligned disciple - the beautiful art becomes just an added vehicle of tapping into the transcendent, experiencing God in that isolated sphere/context, and interfacing with His Spirit.

Its all about where the the heart is, the intent and focused attention of the one doing the worshipping, and sometimes God gives us different things, images or experiences etc to help us to interface with Him, to be able to hone in and calibrate w/ the frequency of His Spirit as we go about the natural tone & rhythm of our lives, over time transforming the personal melody of our individual lives, daily as we go.

Were one to accuse another of idolatry, they may not be so much as making a claim regarding their behaviour, so much as the nature of their heart whilst they were doing it. In some instances at least. Ultimately any-and-every question of idolatry comes back and traces down to the inward intention of the heart, that's the root ground for it, that's where the distinction between idolatrous intent and true intent lies.

Agreed, even our own analytical nature can become an Idol if we are not careful, if we begin to trust in the arm of our own flesh.

[nightlight]

Nightlight,
I appreciate your good intent to help me see how you see. But kindly, since we’ve gone on this merrry-go-round multiple times already, let’s agree to disagree.

One thing we can probably agree on is the importance of considering “what do your beliefs do - what impact do they have?” What are the fruits of shaming someone who doesn’t believe in human sacrifice scapegoating? Does it really seem Christlike?

I'm not shaming you. I don't believe you are trying to shame me when claiming my God is an idol and what not...

But you need to hear people who aren't just playing the "feeling game" when it comes to the Resurrected Jesus Christ.

For me...I can't not try to spread Him. When I see post like yours it like visiting an underground bunker where the people have never been above ground and think the sun to be a fairy tale

How sure are you the Resurrected Jesus Christ doesn't exist...100%,99%,...?

[Thinker]

One of the critical aspects most Christians get wrong is the idea that people will be condemned to hell if they don't believe in Christ....

...So in the true gospel, shame isn't a part of it, it is just Satans way of having twisted truth and to lord over people. Which is why Paul says we aren't saved by works, but by grace through faith. It is faith in Christ, in being set free tat gets us there, so I can't "shame" anyone for not believing, I can just attempt to convince them of the truth and pray that the Lord reveal Himself to them in some way shape or form and that their eyes will be open to see and their heart to feel, and their ears to be open.

Thanks John. I realize sometimes a point really needs to get across (like financial corruption that hurts Many etc). But there are other times when maybe it’s best to agree to disagree - like on our favorite interpretation of idols. Sorry to be blunt - need to borrow sugar from the neighbor.

What you wrote above, I agree with & thank you. Of course - relentless caveats. I’m reading a book that is pretending to be the voice of Christ - mostly it isn’t but maybe 5% it is. More sifting, but I think I need it. Sometimes thoughts will not stop & I miss peace & stillness. But so much of the book is like “you can do no wrong... there is no evil or good - just how you judge it.” And yes there is some validity but “there must needs be opposition in all things.” And there is undoubtedly good & evil - the way evil prevails is so many ignore it.

On one hand, we can work our tooshes off, not just doing the long check list - but magnifying each one on the list... but even after all that, there is no guarantee we will FEEL saved, feel God. “The kingdom of God is within you.” OTOH, Meditating in a cave is like the fool hiding his talent.

[Thinker]

It’s ok to not know. I used to testify that I did. Christianity has transformed the extreme end of the spectrum of light and dark into an anthropomorphic personage called Jesus Christ. He is their embodiment of pure love. He will accept us as we gravitate towards that end and become one with it.

Thank you for allowing for not knowing. Ironically that helps my faith.

I can see how Christ is a personification of God - so in that sense, I can see Christ is God. And I see Christ in my own life many times, as hope, inspiration, comfort and so much good - which is easier to relate to than an abstract idea of God. I think it was Jung who said of people who didn’t believe in God - “they don’t look low enough.” Many religious people would see what Jung said as horrible - even evil. And yet, isn’t that what we do with Christ - brought divine ideals down to our level where we can relate?

Although like everyone, I don’t agree 100% on everything, Jordan Peterson has explained Christianity in a way that increases my faith. He explains Christ in terms of personal application - highest ideals - not dogma.
https://youtu.be/IXZc6spUImI

Interesting how the Christian perspective of JP is similar to Shapiro’s Judaic interpretation.
This is how I see what Christ is really about. The dogmatic trappings were added & mislead many. The real message is about love in the sense of taking response-ability - bearing crosses rather than shifting responsibilities. If all did that - this would be heaven on earth!
https://youtu.be/5tfyvjBpl-Q



Alijah & Nightlight...
^ those 2 clips are, in my opinion, the essence of the truth & spiritual relevance of Christ.

[Thinker]

...Yes idols are bad - a corrupted focus and inverted manner of worship.

But also be mindful that what you might first be inclined to call an idol (counterfeit of the true thing), someone else might see as a vehicle (provides and augments access to the real thing).

God is too big to be experienced in His awesome Totality, most of the time, at least I think its safe to assume - so its perfectly natural to worship Him and come to know Him through various and diverse means. Through various relationships, or trials/experiences or participating in the diverse means of revelation in your personal life.

Idols are just perversions of something based in truth, pale counterfeits of the real thing.

But that doesn't mean God doesn't also give us whatever various things that serve the purpose of augmenting our worship. Like beautiful art for example - its easy to see how it could be perverted into an idol, sure. But conversely, in the eye of the sincere and properly-aligned disciple - the beautiful art becomes just an added vehicle of tapping into the transcendent, experiencing God in that isolated sphere/context, and interfacing with His Spirit.

Its all about where the the heart is, the intent and focused attention of the one doing the worshipping, and sometimes God gives us different things, images or experiences etc to help us to interface with Him, to be able to hone in and calibrate w/ the frequency of His Spirit as we go about the natural tone & rhythm of our lives, over time transforming the personal melody of our individual lives, daily as we go.

Were one to accuse another of idolatry, they may not be so much as making a claim regarding their behaviour, so much as the nature of their heart whilst they were doing it. In some instances at least. Ultimately any-and-every question of idolatry comes back and traces down to the inward intention of the heart, that's the root ground for it, that's where the distinction between idolatrous intent and true intent lies.

You make really good points. It’s like idols are not as good as God, but what can be? So they’re a necessary evil that can be good. God looks on the heart.

Still, if this is the case, then why do the LOWER laws say to not have other gods or engraved images? And these are lower laws - God was planning to give higher laws but saw they’d struggle even with these. Of course we don’t obey these lower laws. Churches & temples - places of worship - are filled with engraved images to enhance worship and people talk so much about idols - rather than about God.

This is an ugly truth - so ugly even most awesome freedom-lovers on this forum - will turn away.

Maybe, as someone explained, “God doesn’t care what idea you use to connect the power. The power itself has its controls, based upon the spirit in which you connect.”. However, not all spirits are godly.

• ”Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” -1John 4:1

I’d say pretending to drink blood is not godly. But it is godly to try to be like Christ in loving, speaking up even against opposition, confronting evil, sacrificing/taking response-ability even when you weren’t the instigator, forgiving...

[Thinker]

I'm not shaming you. I don't believe you are trying to shame me when claiming my God is an idol and what not...

But you need to hear people who aren't just playing the "feeling game" when it comes to the Resurrected Jesus Christ.

For me...I can't not try to spread Him. When I see post like yours it like visiting an underground bunker where the people have never been above ground and think the sun to be a fairy tale

How sure are you the Resurrected Jesus Christ doesn't exist...100%,99%,...?

Fair point - maybe we both have been defensive in our beliefs. I could see how saying Jesus believed in as a human sacrifice scapegoat is an idol - could be seen as shaming. I don’t mean to be offensive but rather to speak of truth even if it’s “heretical.”

Why do you think I am depressingly clueless? Because I don’t believe the story of Jesus’s resurrection that was voted on by councils, is legit... and therefore I must fear death unlike you who believe it? I’m pretty sure everyone - religious, atheist, of whatever belief - fears death. God physiologically designed us to fear it so we live as long & as well as possible. We fear it so much, we often make up or believe stories to help us cope with that overwhelming feeling of fear. Some stories make sense to me.

Like those around Christ, I believe in life after death.

• ”Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
  And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” - Matthew 16:13-14

As above so below. Consciousness is part of energy & energy doesn’t zap out of existence but changes form. Understanding life doesn’t end after this life, is good. Still, this life is that on which to focus.

But even this life - is not who we really are - and will eventually have to be released to return to the God who created us.

[Thinker]

Just came across something written by a friend during a Mormon faith crisis:

” *Evil is created automatically by our fear. When we fear it, we push it away. That effort of pushing away is e-veil. Churches, in their own way, are e-veil, but we simply can’t handle the whole truth. But note the spirit of rejection that happens to NOM members when they lose the faith... We all have pain and we all fear, but evil separates us from our pain and our fear. What most/all churches call good, is actually evil. By rejecting pain and suffering and pushing it away, we actually promote it. Pain and suffering is a consequence to an action, whether the sin is in ourselves our culture, our universe, we cannot always tell. But the pain and suffering would ‘teach’ a better way. By finding ways to push it away, we don’t learn the lesson that it would teach.
*Churches: Hell’s Assisted Living Program

This makes the case that God is enough if we trust the process of communing with God & wrestling with God - & thereby progressing. Not easy - but worth it.

[abijah`]

You make really good points. It’s like idols are not as good as God, but what can be? So they’re a necessary evil that can be good. God looks on the heart.

Lol, no, again you misunderstand.

Idols are always bad. Really bad, all the time, in all places.

You don't seem to really understand what an idol, or what idolatry is.

Still, if this is the case, then why do the LOWER laws say to not have other gods or engraved images? And these are lower laws - God was planning to give higher laws but saw they’d struggle even with these. Of course we don’t obey these lower laws. Churches & temples - places of worship - are filled with engraved images to enhance worship and people talk so much about idols - rather than about God.

This is an ugly truth - so ugly even most awesome freedom-lovers on this forum - will turn away.

Sorry, but your worldview and value system is so different than mine, I find I have a difficult time deciphering exactly what you are meaning to say here.

[John Tavner]

One of the critical aspects most Christians get wrong is the idea that people will be condemned to hell if they don't believe in Christ....

...So in the true gospel, shame isn't a part of it, it is just Satans way of having twisted truth and to lord over people. Which is why Paul says we aren't saved by works, but by grace through faith. It is faith in Christ, in being set free tat gets us there, so I can't "shame" anyone for not believing, I can just attempt to convince them of the truth and pray that the Lord reveal Himself to them in some way shape or form and that their eyes will be open to see and their heart to feel, and their ears to be open.

Thanks John. I realize sometimes a point really needs to get across (like financial corruption that hurts Many etc). But there are other times when maybe it’s best to agree to disagree - like on our favorite interpretation of idols. Sorry to be blunt - need to borrow sugar from the neighbor.

What you wrote above, I agree with & thank you. Of course - relentless caveats. I’m reading a book that is pretending to be the voice of Christ - mostly it isn’t but maybe 5% it is. More sifting, but I think I need it. Sometimes thoughts will not stop & I miss peace & stillness. But so much of the book is like “you can do no wrong... there is no evil or good - just how you judge it.” And yes there is some validity but “there must needs be opposition in all things.” And there is undoubtedly good & evil - the way evil prevails is so many ignore it.

On one hand, we can work our tooshes off, not just doing the long check list - but magnifying each one on the list... but even after all that, there is no guarantee we will FEEL saved, feel God. “The kingdom of God is within you.” OTOH, Meditating in a cave is like the fool hiding his talent.

I'm not hurt by your "blunt"ness. You disagreeing with me doesn't change experiences I've had- so I don't feel threatened by your opinions - I usually opine for others who may read who may be "children" before the Lord or in their journey.

I don't know how you would read a book like that, but perhaps you need to get something out of it- I don't know if i could do it is why I say that. unless I was told by God to do it. I agree, there is an opposition in all things and there is evil and there is good. - too often, especially in this day and age people are claiming there is no evil... or there is no devil. I personally wouldn't be bothered by this, but I have found many people I know have been caught up in beliefs like that.

As far as "working our tooshes off or "feeling." I don't believe life has anything to do with "feeling" saved. I believe this has become such a focus it has led to deception to many. Faith is a hope in things unseen. It is by grace through faith we are saved.... not by Feelings. If we are constantly seeking our validation through feelings our life is determined by how we feel rather than what God said... thus our feelings have become an idol.

[TheDuke]

I suppose the truth is that we are all in different places of understanding, faith and level of progression. Sure, we all return to "somewhere". I just happen to have a very close relationship with my Father (and my Mother) and know where I'm planning on being. Not too abstract at all. But, I could not imagine a world where the entire NT was made up and Jesus wasn't even close to what we are taught or he never was resurrected. The details, some perhaps modified to make a nicer story, but the principles and purpose must be true. Or, I would wonder what supernatural power is regularly chatting with me, bringing me physical and spiritual, and intellectual artifacts? Not Freudian stuff you can make up in your head (like so many would say), but real tangible god given stuff. At least that is my opinion.

[Thinker]

You make really good points. It’s like idols are not as good as God, but what can be? So they’re a necessary evil that can be good. God looks on the heart.

Lol, no, again you misunderstand.

Idols are always bad. Really bad, all the time, in all places...

I understand what idols are - anything that comes before God. Christ is an example. But rather than acknowledge we have different ideas of what idols are, you just accuse me of misunderstanding. It seems like you are not considering “vehicles” or “aids” that come before God as idols.

I was paraphrasing what you wrote in explaining how sometimes idols (or you may call them aids) help you feel closer to God. But again, they come before, not after, God. Thus they are idols, even if you call them something else.

Is God not enough?
Must we have other gods & engraved images for part of our places of worship?

[Thinker]

I'm not hurt by your "blunt"ness. You disagreeing with me doesn't change experiences I've had- so I don't feel threatened by your opinions - I usually opine for others who may read who may be "children" before the Lord or in their journey.

I don't know how you would read a book like that, but perhaps you need to get something out of it- I don't know if i could do it is why I say that. unless I was told by God to do it. I agree, there is an opposition in all things and there is evil and there is good. - too often, especially in this day and age people are claiming there is no evil... or there is no devil. I personally wouldn't be bothered by this, but I have found many people I know have been caught up in beliefs like that.

As far as "working our tooshes off or "feeling." I don't believe life has anything to do with "feeling" saved. I believe this has become such a focus it has led to deception to many. Faith is a hope in things unseen. It is by grace through faith we are saved.... not by Feelings. If we are constantly seeking our validation through feelings our life is determined by how we feel rather than what God said... thus our feelings have become an idol.

Thank you. I appreciate your respectful approach, even if we see things differently. When you first came to the forum, I thought “He thinks like me!” So many ways you expressed things was how I thought. We probably agree on more than we disagree on. But you know, this forum’s purpose (especially the heretic party) is a verbal boxing ring to try to nicely but skillfully wrestle God - logos/words.

I was given that book (based on “a course in miracles”). So I feel kind of obliged to read it but I think I’ll stop - getting repetitive anyway & not really uplifting because I find myself arguing so much with it. The guy who gave it to me is very nice & I could tell it meant a lot to him. I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns.

What is faith if not feeling? It seems that this is the order:
1) Experience
2) Thought
3) E-motion (Faith - hope, motivation)
4) Motion (Active faith)

[nightlight]

I'm not hurt by your "blunt"ness. You disagreeing with me doesn't change experiences I've had- so I don't feel threatened by your opinions - I usually opine for others who may read who may be "children" before the Lord or in their journey.

I don't know how you would read a book like that, but perhaps you need to get something out of it- I don't know if i could do it is why I say that. unless I was told by God to do it. I agree, there is an opposition in all things and there is evil and there is good. - too often, especially in this day and age people are claiming there is no evil... or there is no devil. I personally wouldn't be bothered by this, but I have found many people I know have been caught up in beliefs like that.

As far as "working our tooshes off or "feeling." I don't believe life has anything to do with "feeling" saved. I believe this has become such a focus it has led to deception to many. Faith is a hope in things unseen. It is by grace through faith we are saved.... not by Feelings. If we are constantly seeking our validation through feelings our life is determined by how we feel rather than what God said... thus our feelings have become an idol.

Thank you. I appreciate your respectful approach, even if we see things differently. When you first came to the forum, I thought “He thinks like me!” So many ways you expressed things was how I thought. We probably agree on more than we disagree on. But you know, this forum’s purpose (especially the heretic party) is a verbal boxing ring to try to nicely but skillfully wrestle God - logos/words.

I was given that book (based on “a course in miracles”). So I feel kind of obliged to read it but I think I’ll stop - getting repetitive anyway & not really uplifting because I find myself arguing so much with it. The guy who gave it to me is very nice & I could tell it meant a lot to him. I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns.

What is faith if not feeling? It seems that this is the order:
1) Experience
2) Thought
3) E-motion (Faith - hope, motivation)
4) Motion (Active faith)

" I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns."

I like those reads...what's it called?

[John Tavner]

I'm not hurt by your "blunt"ness. You disagreeing with me doesn't change experiences I've had- so I don't feel threatened by your opinions - I usually opine for others who may read who may be "children" before the Lord or in their journey.

I don't know how you would read a book like that, but perhaps you need to get something out of it- I don't know if i could do it is why I say that. unless I was told by God to do it. I agree, there is an opposition in all things and there is evil and there is good. - too often, especially in this day and age people are claiming there is no evil... or there is no devil. I personally wouldn't be bothered by this, but I have found many people I know have been caught up in beliefs like that.

As far as "working our tooshes off or "feeling." I don't believe life has anything to do with "feeling" saved. I believe this has become such a focus it has led to deception to many. Faith is a hope in things unseen. It is by grace through faith we are saved.... not by Feelings. If we are constantly seeking our validation through feelings our life is determined by how we feel rather than what God said... thus our feelings have become an idol.

Thank you. I appreciate your respectful approach, even if we see things differently. When you first came to the forum, I thought “He thinks like me!” So many ways you expressed things was how I thought. We probably agree on more than we disagree on. But you know, this forum’s purpose (especially the heretic party) is a verbal boxing ring to try to nicely but skillfully wrestle God - logos/words.

I was given that book (based on “a course in miracles”). So I feel kind of obliged to read it but I think I’ll stop - getting repetitive anyway & not really uplifting because I find myself arguing so much with it. The guy who gave it to me is very nice & I could tell it meant a lot to him. I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns.

What is faith if not feeling? It seems that this is the order:
1) Experience
2) Thought
3) E-motion (Faith - hope, motivation)
4) Motion (Active faith)

I think we probably do agree on more than we disagree, but when we do find those disagreements, they are pretty chasmic

Fair enough, I've been given a few books like that before.. So I understand better now why you are doing it

I don't believe that approach is the ancient view of faith.

1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Faith uses the word in Greek to represent trust, confidence and belief. Assurance is the confidence/ a "guaranteeing" and hope is the "expectation or trust in what we don't see and the "certainty" is inner conviction of what is no seen/perceived.

In other words Faith is the confidence/guarantee in the expectation of what we don't see. It is our state of mind, not how I feel. Not all feelings come from within. Many come from wihtout and try to convince us that they are us, when they are not.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - it is a gift from God (the gift of faith)
Faith is an inner persuasion by the Spirit, which if planted AND watered, will grow if true. If I plant a seed because someone tells me that it will grow, I don't have "emotion" about that, I trust enough to plant the seed, the "hope" is not the bastardized expectation of hope we use, it is the expectation that it will grow. I may "desire" it, but the desire isn't a full emotion in fact if I'm sad and all that other stuff, it means I'm not actually placing faith in the seed to grow, because it is an expectation, I can't have faith and then cry over it- the emotion might come when I taste of the fruit or the vegetable- that is when I obtain joy. Otherwise, I'm just acting in expectation that the seed will grow, but the joy of emotion comes when I have tasted of hte vegetable - and even then when the joy is gone, it doesn't mean I never had the vegetable or that it was gone, it is just that I tasted it -I can think back and remember how it felt, but just because I am not "feeling" the joy I did when I ate the vegetable doesn't mean that I never ate it or never received it. The truth is that I received of that fruit and it doesn't matter how I feel, but if I am only seeking after that vegetable for feeling, I will likely be disapointed, because the next time I plant a seed and it grew and I partook of the fruits and if it didn't taste the "exact same" or like I remember it, though it is still sweet, then I'm all of a sudden forgetting the point - it was never about hte "happiness" of how I felt when I tasted, it was all about the nutrients the food would give in the first place, the joy just happened to be a side affect.

The truth is (though we disagree on some aspects of this) The truht as I see it is thus:Rom 10: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. So Confess with my mouth isn't just me saying "Jesus is Lord" Lord actually meant something back then. It is declaring fealty to a King meaning I'm declaring that I will obey and let Jesus govern my life and then if I believe that God raised Him from the dead (which means GOd can raise me from the dead - both physically and spiritually i.e. Holy SPirit) then I will be saved. I can feel the worst ever in a day... but that does not mean that I am not saved. When God baptized me with the Holy Ghost and told me "you are a Son and always will be" I believed Him/ believe Him, so It doesn't matter if I don't "feel" saved, I trust in His world and accept Salvation despite how I feel keeping my eye single to Him and not to how I feel and "my needs" in the moment - this allows freedom and the ability to help others as well because I'm not only doing as well as I'm feeling.

[abijah`]

I understand what idols are - anything that comes before God. Christ is an example. But rather than acknowledge we have different ideas of what idols are, you just accuse me of misunderstanding. It seems like you are not considering “vehicles” or “aids” that come before God as idols.

I was paraphrasing what you wrote in explaining how sometimes idols (or you may call them aids) help you feel closer to God. But again, they come before, not after, God. Thus they are idols, even if you call them something else.

Is God not enough?
Must we have other gods & engraved images for part of our places of worship?

No, you clearly don't understand what idols are.

Idols are objects to which worship is directed.

It is possible to create, participate in and enjoy all manner of things without them being an object of worship, or a distraction/dampener of one's worship.

Stop blurring distinctions between fundamentally different categories. Something being enjoyed (as we are all naturally intended to participate in and enjoy Creation) and something being worshipped is a FUNDAMENTAL difference, that you seem either unwilling or incapable of acknowledging.

An idol becomes an idol when it becomes bigger to you than God. That doesnt mean we need to live some bizarre, blank, sterile manner of living these ideas seem to be advocating.

[Thinker]

I'm not hurt by your "blunt"ness. You disagreeing with me doesn't change experiences I've had- so I don't feel threatened by your opinions - I usually opine for others who may read who may be "children" before the Lord or in their journey.

I don't know how you would read a book like that, but perhaps you need to get something out of it- I don't know if i could do it is why I say that. unless I was told by God to do it. I agree, there is an opposition in all things and there is evil and there is good. - too often, especially in this day and age people are claiming there is no evil... or there is no devil. I personally wouldn't be bothered by this, but I have found many people I know have been caught up in beliefs like that.

As far as "working our tooshes off or "feeling." I don't believe life has anything to do with "feeling" saved. I believe this has become such a focus it has led to deception to many. Faith is a hope in things unseen. It is by grace through faith we are saved.... not by Feelings. If we are constantly seeking our validation through feelings our life is determined by how we feel rather than what God said... thus our feelings have become an idol.

Thank you. I appreciate your respectful approach, even if we see things differently. When you first came to the forum, I thought “He thinks like me!” So many ways you expressed things was how I thought. We probably agree on more than we disagree on. But you know, this forum’s purpose (especially the heretic party) is a verbal boxing ring to try to nicely but skillfully wrestle God - logos/words.

I was given that book (based on “a course in miracles”). So I feel kind of obliged to read it but I think I’ll stop - getting repetitive anyway & not really uplifting because I find myself arguing so much with it. The guy who gave it to me is very nice & I could tell it meant a lot to him. I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns.

What is faith if not feeling? It seems that this is the order:
1) Experience
2) Thought
3) E-motion (Faith - hope, motivation)
4) Motion (Active faith)

" I gave him a book about metaphysical causes of illness & affirmations to correct bad thought patterns."

I like those reads...what's it called?

“Heal Your Body” by Louise Hay

I’m glad you’re interested in that kind of thing too. I think Abijah started a thread about structural spiritual equivalent- or something & I’ll share more in that.

Ah here it is: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60840&hilit=Cardiovascular

Nightlight, You might also find this helpful:
http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... KVMtyVOLYU

[Thinker]

I think we probably do agree on more than we disagree, but when we do find those disagreements, they are pretty chasmic

Fair enough, I've been given a few books like that before.. So I understand better now why you are doing it

I don't believe that approach is the ancient view of faith.

1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Faith uses the word in Greek to represent trust, confidence and belief. Assurance is the confidence/ a "guaranteeing" and hope is the "expectation or trust in what we don't see and the "certainty" is inner conviction of what is no seen/perceived.

In other words Faith is the confidence/guarantee in the expectation of what we don't see. It is our state of mind, not how I feel. Not all feelings come from within. Many come from wihtout and try to convince us that they are us, when they are not...

...despite how I feel keeping my eye single to Him and not to how I feel and "my needs" in the moment - this allows freedom and the ability to help others as well because I'm not only doing as well as I'm feeling.

Thanks, John. It is good to remember commonalities.

I’m completely with you in that integrity often involves acting despite not feeling like it. But I still think of faith & hope as more emotional. Same with “state of mind.”

What you brought up about some feelings coming from outside us - at first that seems wrong but I can see some truth. It may be subtle, but a place can have a sort of feeling to it, & others can affect us. But generally, it’s like Leibniz said of monads - they are indestructible but only pop in & out of existence by internal principles - free will.