On Every High Hill

[Pazooka]

Been wondering about this for a while. There is plenty of indication that Ephraim was *not* supposed to bring the temples to the people, but to gather the people to the place chosen and sanctified by the Lord. It looks like Ephraim and the rest of the House of Israel have been guilty of this in the past:

2 Kings 17:9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the Lord their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city.
10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:
11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the Lord carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the Lord to anger:

And then there’s Deuteronomy 12:5-6

But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, etc.

[Pazooka]

To serve wood and stone (Ezekiel 20:32)

[abijah`]

Well, those shrines were dedicated to false gods.

Now, it is true that the idea of temples to YHWH being all over the place would have seemed strange to ancient Israel. For them, there was only ONE place to worship Him which was His one, singular temple on mt. Zion.

But with Jesus and the new covenant - it was reversed, in that before you had to go to the mountain of the Lord to receive His blessing, whereas with Jesus, He was bringing the temple blessings out to the world - "subduing" it Genesis 1 style.

The symbolism is that Jesus is the true Temple, and Hie believers are likewise made into temples.

So I don't necessarily think the Church is at fault for making many of them. Since thats what Jesus does - He makes His followers into a bunch of temples, that they as well might be vehicles/icons of the Eden`blessing, just as Abraham's seed was called to be.

[Pazooka]

Well, those shrines were dedicated to false gods.

Now, it is true that the idea of temples to YHWH being all over the place would have seemed strange to ancient Israel. For them, there was only ONE place to worship Him which was His one, singular temple on mt. Zion.

But with Jesus and the new covenant - it was reversed, in that before you had to go to the mountain of the Lord to receive His blessing, whereas with Jesus, He was bringing the temple blessings out to the world - "subduing" it Genesis 1 style.

The symbolism is that Jesus is the true Temple, and Hie believers are likewise made into temples.

So I don't necessarily think the Church is at fault for making many of them. Since thats what Jesus does - He makes His followers into a bunch of temples, that they as well might be vehicles/icons of the Eden`blessing, just as Abraham's seed was called to be.

I can see the case for our bodies/selves being a temple of the Living God. But where does the Lord say that we should build temples by multitudes throughout the world? I can’t find it in D&C or the New Testament or the BofM or even as prophesied in the Old Testament. Maybe you know of a scripture.

[Pazooka]

There’s always this authoritative statement from Bruce R. McConkie (tongue in cheek);

"We expect to see the day when temples will dot the earth, each one a house of the Lord; each one built in the mountains of the lord; each one a sacred sanctuary to which Israel and the Gentiles shall gather to receive the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Perhaps they will number in the hundreds, or even in the thousands, before the Lord returns."

[Pazooka]

Ezekiel 20:

40 For in mine holy mountain [singular], in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord God, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

[NewEliza]

I have thought about this too. If the restoration era saints had succeeded in building up Zion and were translated or the millennial reign had started, then I think the temple situation would be different.


The idea that we are supposed to physically gather to the one Zion has been lost.

[Pazooka]

Speaking of the construction of the Salt Lake temple, Brigham Young said this:

"I do not want to quite finish this Temple for there will not be any Temple finished until the one is finished in Jackson County, Missouri pointed out by Joseph Smith. Keep this a secret to yourselves lest some may be discouraged." (See footnote “6”)

The impact of this statement on Woodruff is evident by the fact that he recorded Young's words in both his personal diary and in the historian's office journals. Young's statement no doubt impressed Woodruff with the millennial nature and significance of the Salt Lake temple and further heightened in his mind its prophetic destiny.

6. Wilford Woodruff Journal, 1833-1898, 9 vols. (Midvale, UT: Signature Books, 1983-85), 6:71-72, 23 Aug. 1862.

As church leaders publicly proclaimed their desire to finish the temple, Young declared, "I want
to see the Temple finished as soon as it is reasonable and practicable. Whether we go in there
to work or not makes no difference; I am perfectly willing to finish it to the last leaf of gold that shall be laid upon it, and to the last lock that should be put on the doors, and then lock every door, and there let it stand until the earth can rest before the Saints commence their labors there" (Brigham Young, 8 Apr. 1867, Journal of Discourses 11:372, emphasis mine).

Although an in-depth study of Young's views concerning the return to Jackson County is beyond the scope of this essay, a brief study of Young's sermons indicates a millennialistic cycle that peaked with the commencement of the Civil War in 1861. In response to the question of when the Saints would return to Jackson County, Young proclaimed in 1852: "Not until the Lord commands it" (28 Aug. 1852, Journal of Discourses 6:269). Earlier he had indicated his belief that if the Saints then listening did not return themselves, their children would (15 Aug. 1852, Journal of Discourses 6:296; also 6 June 1858, Journal of Discourses 7:66; 21 Oct. 1860, Journal of Discourses 8:225; on Young's expectation to see Jackson County "in the flesh," see 9 Sept. 1860, Journal of Discourses 8:175). Prior to the commencement of the Civil War, Young's teachings indicated an uncertainty regarding when the Saints would return to Jackson County but a conviction that the time was near and that the Saints should be ready to go at any moment.
The beginning of the war increased Young's expectation that the time was nearing for the Saints to return to redeem Zion. "One great blessing the Lord wishes to pour upon this people is that they may return to Jackson county," he declared. "If our enemies do not cease their oppression upon this people, as sure as the Lord lives it will not be many days before we will occupy that land and there build up a Temple to the Lord" (6 Apr. 1862, Journal of Dis- courses 9:270). While the Civil War raged in the East, Young boldly declared, "We are deter- mined to build up the kingdom of God on the earth; to bring forth Zion, to promote the cause
of righteousness on the earth ... The time has now come when this work will be consummat- ed" (31 Aug. 1862, Journal of Discourses 9:368). This declaration was made one week after Young uttered his instructions to Woodruff on the temple grounds to delay completion of the temple until after the return to Jackson County. Two years later the president prepared the Saints for his departure to return to Jackson County by warning them, "I expect to be absent, some time from now, for quite a while" (15 May 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:290). With the U.S. government still intact following the Civil War, Young's attitudes regarding the imminent return of the church to Jackson County cooled. It became clear that the time frame for the Saints' return was unknown. No longer was the return to Zion as immediate. It is not possible to determine if Young intended to complete the Salt Lake temple irrespective of the return to Jackson County or if the ending of the Civil War altered his views. If Young did change his intent, he did not communicate this change to Woodruff, who clearly held to the original teachings of the president in 1862. (For an in-depth discussion of the millennial fervor brought on by the Civil War among Young and the Saints, see Louis G. Reinwand, "An Interpretive Study of Mormon Millennialism During the Nineteenth Century with Emphasis on Millennial Developments in Utah," M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, 1971.)

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... 03_115.pdf

[Pazooka]

Looking into the decision to build the St. George temple, it appears it was done out of administrative expediency rather than a result of revelation from the Lord, as explained at the beginning of this 7-page history:

https://wchsutah.org/documents/st-georg ... tory-1.pdf

[Pazooka]

Stanzas four and five from “The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning,” sung at the dedication of the Kirtland temple, which are omitted more recent hymn books:

We'll wash and be wash'd, and with oil be anointed
Withal not omitting the washing of feet:
For he that receiveth his PENNY appointed,
Must surely be clean at the harvest of wheat.

Old Israel that fled from the world for his freedom,
Must come with the cloud and the pillar, amain [with one’s might]:
A Moses, and Aaron, and Joshua lead him,
And feed him on manna from heaven again.

[Robbinius]

I definitely think you’re onto something here Pazooka. The gathering was never to be a virtual gathering on both sides of the veil. Temples dotting the earth keep the people scattered and distracted into the worshiping an idol of, like you pointed out earlier, wood and stone.

[abijah`]

I can see the case for our bodies/selves being a temple of the Living God. But where does the Lord say that we should build temples by multitudes throughout the world? I can’t find it in D&C or the New Testament or the BofM or even as prophesied in the Old Testament. Maybe you know of a scripture.

I don't know any specific scripture, but symbolically/typologically it makes sense to me.

Like, how the grand cosmic Temple in the end isn't an actual building made with stones, mortar, or cedars but instead is the Temple of Jesus' Body. The building is a symbol pointing to the real Thing.

Well it only makes sense that in like manner we make a bunch of little temples, symbolising all the little Christ-Temples that all His followers get transformed into.

I got no problem with it. In fact I wish they'd dump even more $$$ into making them even grander and more extravagant. Proliferating God's sacred space, reconquering territory/influence for Him, and spreading out the Eden`blessing as much as possible, and with as much beauty as possible seems more valuable to me than dollars in a bank, which ultimately have no worth on the eternal scheme of things. Outward invitations of beauty/glory to come partake of an inner transformation.

[Pazooka]

I got no problem with it. In fact I wish they'd dump even more $$$ into making them even grander and more extravagant. Proliferating God's sacred space, reconquering territory/influence for Him, and spreading out the Eden`blessing as much as possible, and with as much beauty as possible seems more valuable to me than dollars in a bank, which ultimately have no worth on the eternal scheme of things. Outward invitations of beauty/glory to come partake of an inner transformation.

Why? So that we can better fulfill Mormon 8:39: Why do ye adorn yourselves [and your churches] with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

I think we’re already doing a fine job of bringing that prophecy to pass.

[abijah`]

Why? So that we can better fulfill Mormon 8:39: Why do ye adorn yourselves [and your churches] with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

I think we’re already doing a fine job of bringing that prophecy to pass.

I think you do have a point. And I should bear in mind that I can at times be decadent.

[Pazooka]

Why? So that we can better fulfill Mormon 8:39: Why do ye adorn yourselves [and your churches] with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

I think we’re already doing a fine job of bringing that prophecy to pass.

I think you do have a point. And I should bear in mind that I can at times be decadent.

You meant well

[abijah`]

You meant well

Yes and I have further knowledge to receive on the subject, so like all my conclusions, its pending further info.

And I do think my point on many temples being symbolically coherent with the theme of all His followers being baptised of fire into new, christ-temples themselves. Its just a speculation, but thats why I dont see much a problem with it so long as we are foremost in the right place spiritually.

[TheDuke]

Obviously we don't need temples. We can become clean and do our own covenants without help, and everyone can travel to Mecca ... Jerusalem. And we don't need no priesthood. We all can just claim it and have it. We don't need to 15 we can get our own revelation. We don't need no church programs, we can teach ourselves. We don't need no schools, we can home school. We don't need no government, we have faith we can stop 1.5B Chinese by praying for help. We don't need all the scriptures, well bible and some apochraphal ones (written thousands of years later but we're each smart enough to pick the right verses out of the pile), maybe BoM, and which ever D&C scriptures we think were not too watered or changed by Oliver, Sidney, BY others later. We don't even need each other on this forum, we only need ourselves and Christ. I mean in the end that's all there is. So, why the middlemen? Let's see, authority, teachings, knowledge, service, sociality, strength when weak...

Not sure if most on here just never had a temple experience? BTW I haven't been in many years (other than being sealed in Oct) but I darn well know what I learned and felt there. So many anti-everything thoughts.............................

[Pazooka]

Obviously we don't need temples. We can become clean and do our own covenants without help, and everyone can travel to Mecca ... Jerusalem. And we don't need no priesthood. We all can just claim it and have it. We don't need to 15 we can get our own revelation. We don't need no church programs, we can teach ourselves. We don't need no schools, we can home school. We don't need no government, we have faith we can stop 1.5B Chinese by praying for help. We don't need all the scriptures, well bible and some apochraphal ones (written thousands of years later but we're each smart enough to pick the right verses out of the pile), maybe BoM, and which ever D&C scriptures we think were not too watered or changed by Oliver, Sidney, BY others later. We don't even need each other on this forum, we only need ourselves and Christ. I mean in the end that's all there is. So, why the middlemen? Let's see, authority, teachings, knowledge, service, sociality, strength when weak...

Not sure if most on here just never had a temple experience? BTW I haven't been in many years (other than being sealed in Oct) but I darn well know what I learned and felt there. So many anti-everything thoughts.............................

We’re talking about both Old Testament and Restoration teachings. This isn’t an “anti” rant. This is trying to get to the bottom of something, sincerely. I want to know what our current “temples to dot the earth” thing is founded on...sand or rock.

I have had some really nice experiences in the temple over the past 20 years or so. And I’ve had some bad experiences too. That’s not the issue. The issue is whether or not it is the will of the Lord that these temples that dot the high places of the earth be built or whether or not we were intended to gather the House of Israel to a stronghold with one temple in the which the Lord could dwell with His people - - a watchtower.

Has our temple-building turned into idolatry? I’m started to observe some of the same characteristics in us, today, that existed in ancient Israel. That’s one of the purposes of the scriptures, if Nephi is to be believed. When we don’t look for that or can’t believe we could be like the wayward Israelites of the past, isn’t that pride? Or blindness?

Somewhere, somehow, did we move off the foundation that was laid?... is my question. I’ve not seen *any* scriptural support for a multitude of temples.

[TheDuke]

Well, I doubt you can learn about geographic considerations in old testament as there were totally different dynamics. And BTW wasn't just commenting on this thread. In general, sorry if it seemed otherwise.

[Pazooka]

Well, I doubt you can learn about geographic considerations in old testament as there were totally different dynamics. And BTW wasn't just commenting on this thread. In general, sorry if it seemed otherwise.

Not as different as you might think. For kicks, check out Hosea 8, sometime. Verse 14: For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples.

What kind of mindset do these people have that, even though they think they are building temples to God, they’re really offending Him? They are just like you and me. There are some lessons to be learned here.

[nightlight]

we have faith we can stop 1.5B Chinese by praying for help. ....

So wrong about this ^^^^^ if you got such a basic understanding wrong....what else could you be wrong about in your post?

What is greater, moving a mountain with a thought or 300million people praying to stop a nation of 1.5B ?

[Pazooka]

we have faith we can stop 1.5B Chinese by praying for help. ....

So wrong about this ^^^^^ if you got such a basic understanding wrong....what else could you be wrong about in your post?

What is greater, moving a mountain with a thought or 300million people praying to stop a nation of 1.5B ?

Yeah, that’s why it took me a minute to decide whether it was sarcasm or not. Word up: we CAN receive our own revelation, we CAN educate our own children, etc. What we NEED is a righteous banner around which to congregate. We NEED the keys of the gathering. We NEED to know how to organize as a people under the Lord, truly. We need a man to stand in that breach, like Moses. We looked, and there was no one.

[TheDuke]

First off the complaint about temples there refers not to temples for Jehovah. They were building temples to Baal and others. And yes some sarcasm, but the Lord had Israel create the "host". Even when he fought their battles, they had to have an army and had to be prepared to fight themselves. Then on the day of the battle, He would either tell them to fight (like Moses, Joshua, Saul) or He would fight for them. But, He never said lay down, do nothing and pray. That is the falsehood and misunderstanding here. Faith after all we can do not faith w/o works.

[Pazooka]

First off the complaint about temples there refers not to temples for Jehovah. They were building temples to Baal and others. And yes some sarcasm, but the Lord had Israel create the "host". Even when he fought their battles, they had to have an army and had to be prepared to fight themselves. Then on the day of the battle, He would either tell them to fight (like Moses, Joshua, Saul) or He would fight for them. But, He never said lay down, do nothing and pray. That is the falsehood and misunderstanding here. Faith after all we can do not faith w/o works.

“Baal” means “Lord.” Ephraim of Hosea’s day had built temples to what they thought was the God of Israel, but they were doing it without His sanction, out of convenience (and other reasons) - and, through His prophet, God calls them “houses of vanity.” In rejecting His leadership, they entered into idolatry. I think we making the same mistake.

[TheDuke]

Baal was a Semitic god worshiped through the area with idols and groves. Not Jehovah. Although apparently Solomon built a temple to him for one of his wives... A real no-no.