Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

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simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by simpleton »

Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:47 am
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Because there were so many OPs, I’m curious to know which particular part you believe is from the dark side.
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real. Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God. But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him) and also reveal messages of intelligence, but seemingly of light, as without the spirit of discernment it will all seem as light, yet darkness to those that have the spirit of discernment. It is even prophesied that Satan will appear as an angel of light and deceive even the very elect, "if it were possible".
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
Where the biggest problem and deception comes from is the minute we allow just even a little pride to come in, in its seemingly countless forms. The minute we take any glory at all, unto ourselves, is the minute the devil takes power. Our whole Babylonian society is completely immersed in pride, it is completely designed to build pride, our sports, our movies, our daily walk, even our church has completely gone into the building up of pride.
"Yea none doeth good no not one." "And all tables are full of vomit".
By the drinking of the kool-aid of proud Babylon, it opens the door to deception. It gives Satan and his minions great power over the children of men, so hence the plethora of spirits going about to deceive in society. And more especially in Mormondom.

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Pazooka
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Pazooka »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:47 am
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.


The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".

How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits


Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Because there were so many OPs, I’m curious to know which particular part you believe is from the dark side.
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real. Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God. But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him) and also reveal messages of intelligence, but seemingly of light, as without the spirit of discernment it will all seem as light, yet darkness to those that have the spirit of discernment. It is even prophesied that Satan will appear as an angel of light and deceive even the very elect, "if it were possible".
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
Where the biggest problem and deception comes from is the minute we allow just even a little pride to come in, in its seemingly countless forms. The minute we take any glory at all, unto ourselves, is the minute the devil takes power. Our whole Babylonian society is completely immersed in pride, it is completely designed to build pride, our sports, our movies, our daily walk, even our church has completely gone into the building up of pride.
"Yea none doeth good no not one." "And all tables are full of vomit".
By the drinking of the kool-aid of proud Babylon, it opens the door to deception. It gives Satan and his minions great power over the children of men, so hence the plethora of spirits going about to deceive in society. And more especially in Mormondom.
“Life Everlasting” is one of my faves. My 16-year old is reading it right now. Duane Crowther used to work in the Bountiful temple with my husband’s grandfather.

I think you actually made a great case for why we *need* to have those kinds of communications - - in order to learn how to tell the good from the evil. God doesn’t disallow experience because there’s the possibility (probability, more like) of deception - the small percentage of success is worth the greater percentage of failure. That’s life.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by simpleton »

Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 1:03 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:47 am
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am

It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Because there were so many OPs, I’m curious to know which particular part you believe is from the dark side.
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real. Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God. But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him) and also reveal messages of intelligence, but seemingly of light, as without the spirit of discernment it will all seem as light, yet darkness to those that have the spirit of discernment. It is even prophesied that Satan will appear as an angel of light and deceive even the very elect, "if it were possible".
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
Where the biggest problem and deception comes from is the minute we allow just even a little pride to come in, in its seemingly countless forms. The minute we take any glory at all, unto ourselves, is the minute the devil takes power. Our whole Babylonian society is completely immersed in pride, it is completely designed to build pride, our sports, our movies, our daily walk, even our church has completely gone into the building up of pride.
"Yea none doeth good no not one." "And all tables are full of vomit".
By the drinking of the kool-aid of proud Babylon, it opens the door to deception. It gives Satan and his minions great power over the children of men, so hence the plethora of spirits going about to deceive in society. And more especially in Mormondom.
“Life Everlasting” is one of my faves. My 16-year old is reading it right now. Duane Crowther used to work in the Bountiful temple with my husband’s grandfather.

I think you actually made a great case for why we *need* to have those kinds of communications - - in order to learn how to tell the good from the evil. God doesn’t disallow experience because there’s the possibility (probability, more like) of deception - the small percentage of success is worth the greater percentage of failure. That’s life.
Yes exactly, and it is imperative that we learn to discern, correctly. But, most definitely does not mean that the correct discernment is made every time. I just feel that the stories in the OP are, well, strange. They do not feel good to me. It does not feel enlightening. But very possible I am in the dark also. :shock:

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Pazooka
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Pazooka »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 1:14 pm
Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 1:03 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:47 am

Because there were so many OPs, I’m curious to know which particular part you believe is from the dark side.
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real. Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God. But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him) and also reveal messages of intelligence, but seemingly of light, as without the spirit of discernment it will all seem as light, yet darkness to those that have the spirit of discernment. It is even prophesied that Satan will appear as an angel of light and deceive even the very elect, "if it were possible".
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
Where the biggest problem and deception comes from is the minute we allow just even a little pride to come in, in its seemingly countless forms. The minute we take any glory at all, unto ourselves, is the minute the devil takes power. Our whole Babylonian society is completely immersed in pride, it is completely designed to build pride, our sports, our movies, our daily walk, even our church has completely gone into the building up of pride.
"Yea none doeth good no not one." "And all tables are full of vomit".
By the drinking of the kool-aid of proud Babylon, it opens the door to deception. It gives Satan and his minions great power over the children of men, so hence the plethora of spirits going about to deceive in society. And more especially in Mormondom.
“Life Everlasting” is one of my faves. My 16-year old is reading it right now. Duane Crowther used to work in the Bountiful temple with my husband’s grandfather.

I think you actually made a great case for why we *need* to have those kinds of communications - - in order to learn how to tell the good from the evil. God doesn’t disallow experience because there’s the possibility (probability, more like) of deception - the small percentage of success is worth the greater percentage of failure. That’s life.
Yes exactly, and it is imperative that we learn to discern, correctly. But, most definitely does not mean that the correct discernment is made every time. I just feel that the stories in the OP are, well, strange. They do not feel good to me. It does not feel enlightening. But very possible I am in the dark also. :shock:
Ah, ok - I get what you’re saying now.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

I mean we should not be naive or gullible. There are people who search the internet for the vulnerable who are on the fringe or who are lonely and exposed or struggling with mental illness and they are looking to take advantage of someone who is struggling.

For the record I do not have 100% trust in Amonhi. I don't really know him/them. I do have a reservation in place. But truth is I don't really trust anyone fully because I've got good reasons to doubt or distrust people. It takes me a really long time to get to the point where I feel like someone is reliable. Now I also know there is a way to live without any fear or distrust or concern of being duped or tricked, manipulated, etc. and that is something I realize that I am not as God is yet.

We should be careful but at the same time God is real and He is also looking out for us individually and collectively.

We can learn to hear what is Spirit. I trust the Spirit. The voice of God has not lead me astray yet. The voice of the Spirit is a voice that has lead me to all good things so far. When I finally recognized the voice of Spirit it has become an anchor for me. It is how I measure all things. And everytime I have followed that voice I have gained more peace, more understanding, real solutions and ideas which when applied have made my life better in concrete and real ways. The voice leads me to more patience and empathy towards others. It shows me things that helps me.

I know this voice and it is Spirit and good.

So when someone says something and the Spirit carries those words to my heart I believe the idea not because the person said it but because the Spirit said it.

If I am not willing to even consider an idea and reject it prejudicially or because of the person who said it then it does not matter if the words are true and the Spirit won't force the idea upon you. You just won't know the idea is true and you'll think that you are right.

So don't be afraid to sincerely and thoroughly and with real intent seek to understand what another is saying. There is no good reason to prejudge an idea. If we know the voice of the Spirit we are not alone or being left to our own devices. If God is your friend then talk to Him and seek knowledge from Him.

...
Last edited by darknesstolight on May 2nd, 2021, 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Seeker144k
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Seeker144k »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:49 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:43 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
There is not a single scripture in this thread that says evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones. I can't find any scripture that says anything about this. I did find something that says they might try to appear as an angel of light, but nothing that says they try to impersonate deceased loved ones.

Perhaps is there a well known talk I don't know about that addresses this?

Peace,
Amonhi
Who do you think mediums speak to when they have a message from Grandma?
Wait, your source is a biased assumption?

Isn't it believed that missionaries, prophets and church leaders are taught, directed and inspired by angels on the other side of the veil all the time? Who's talking to them?

If you're gonna make a blanket assumption like that you might as well apply it universally to everyone and we should assume that the dead prophet Mormom was an evil spirit impersonating a dead guy when talking to Joseph Smith.

I've read that in the Millennium the veil will be thin and the living will talk to the dead directly to accomplish the great work for the dead.

Where are you drawing the line? You're responses appear to universally reject the idea that any righteous dead person will ever talk to us, but then you said that you have a family story where it happened. If their was and validity to your responses, then every one of them could be used to prove your own story to be a false spirit. And possibly nearly every revelation of Joseph Smith that was received through the veil. Where's the line?

~Seeker

Seeker144k
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Seeker144k »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Great quotes from Joseph Smith. It appears to me that they are saying exactly the same thing Amonhi said, specifically that you can't trust a spirit just because it speaks to you through the veil and that it requires the Holy Ghost to discern between good and evil spirits.

It would seem that Joseph is implying that we should discern with the spirit of God which would require first for a spirit to be manifest or in other worlds to communicate with them.

Also, I didn't see anything jumpy or floppy or shaky happening in any of the OPs. I didn't see anything inherently evil communicated or wrong or any instruction or error that leads to evil. I guess you'd have to have been there. ;)

~Seeker

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by simpleton »

Seeker144k wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:52 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Great quotes from Joseph Smith. It appears to me that they are saying exactly the same thing Amonhi said, specifically that you can't trust a spirit just because it speaks to you through the veil and that it requires the Holy Ghost to discern between good and evil spirits.

It would seem that Joseph is implying that we should discern with the spirit of God which would require first for a spirit to be manifest or in other worlds to communicate with them.

Also, I didn't see anything jumpy or floppy or shaky happening in any of the OPs. I didn't see anything inherently evil communicated or wrong or any instruction or error that leads to evil. I guess you'd have to have been there. ;)

~Seeker
To me it was like the beginnings of deception, wherein mostly truth is revealed to get the hooks in.

Seeker144k
captain of 100
Posts: 337

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Seeker144k »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real.
I agree people can be deceived. Not just by spirits, but by people, especially church leaders.
Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God.
Everything is plain and simple when understood correctly. Our history is filled with myths that plain and simply explain rain, lightening, earthquakes and other phenomenon which are quite wrong. I still see people express interesting superstition just like we have seen in this thread. Sounds simple and plain, but completely wrong can be passed off as true.
But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him)
This is the part that got me to comment. This is not true. At least not to someone who knows anything about the workings of the spirit. Sure, a very inexperienced person with little to no spirit of discernment might be visited by the devil who claims to be the son of God and be tricked into believing it because they have never met Jesus Christ for themselves. But anyone who knows God or Christ would not mistake a devil claiming to be God or Christ. The contrast is unmistakable. And a person who has experience communicating with the spirit world will not be fooled by any impersonator. (Speaking from experience.) Granted if you don't have any experience and you don't have any discernment and a devil showed up and claimed to be someone you didn't know, a person might just accept it without question and be deceived. I've never heard of an evil spirit trying to impersonate someone, but I have heard them claim to be someone, like the only begotten son of God. But there is a vast difference between a claim and impersonating. Having personal experience, there is no possible way Satan or his "imps" could impersonate Jesus Christ, God or a true angel of God to anyone who has experienced the real deal.

Remember Moses said that after visiting with the Lord Satan showed up and claimed to be the son of God. Satan didn't and couldn't impersonate the Lord. There was no way Moses could be deceived.
12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
Surely if it was possible Satan would have attempted to impersonate the Lord rather than just claiming to be the only begotten.

Again, I could see someone who had never known the Lord just accept a devil's words, like Joseph said in that long quote I think you provided.
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
This right here is an important point. Satan doesn't actually win any ground through deception. Agency requires knowledge. If you accidentally or unintentionally choose good, you have no eternal reward and if you accidentally or unintentionally do evil you remain innocent covered by the atonement. Sin required knowledge. If you are deceived it means you lack knowledge or accept for truth that which isn't true. We all do that to some degree and we are all innocent of anything we do under deception. At some point we will be given the truth and the option to choose good from evil. But our choice has to to be knowledge or we don't have agency. So there is no real win in Satan deceiving us or tricking us to do evil.

Satan has power in the Telestial world among Telestial people. When we become Terrestrial people/born of God, (enter in at the gate and receive the Holy Ghost), he looses his power over us. (Assuming that we have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and it doesn't cease to strive with us.) At that point, we have already chosen the good and passed that part of life's test.

As Terrestrial people we need to be more concerned with being blinded by the craftiness of men which will damn us and prevent us from becoming Celestial. We need to rely on the arm of the spirit more than the arm of flesh.

~Seeker

Seeker144k
captain of 100
Posts: 337

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Seeker144k »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 4:00 pm
Seeker144k wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:52 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.


The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".

How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits


Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Great quotes from Joseph Smith. It appears to me that they are saying exactly the same thing Amonhi said, specifically that you can't trust a spirit just because it speaks to you through the veil and that it requires the Holy Ghost to discern between good and evil spirits.

It would seem that Joseph is implying that we should discern with the spirit of God which would require first for a spirit to be manifest or in other worlds to communicate with them.

Also, I didn't see anything jumpy or floppy or shaky happening in any of the OPs. I didn't see anything inherently evil communicated or wrong or any instruction or error that leads to evil. I guess you'd have to have been there. ;)

~Seeker
To me it was like the beginnings of deception, wherein mostly truth is revealed to get the hooks in.
What errors did the spirit teach that you discovered?

~Seeker

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by simpleton »

Seeker144k wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 6:27 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real.
I agree people can be deceived. Not just by spirits, but by people, especially church leaders.
Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God.
Everything is plain and simple when understood correctly. Our history is filled with myths that plain and simply explain rain, lightening, earthquakes and other phenomenon which are quite wrong. I still see people express interesting superstition just like we have seen in this thread. Sounds simple and plain, but completely wrong can be passed off as true.
But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him)
This is the part that got me to comment. This is not true. At least not to someone who knows anything about the workings of the spirit. Sure, a very inexperienced person with little to no spirit of discernment might be visited by the devil who claims to be the son of God and be tricked into believing it because they have never met Jesus Christ for themselves. But anyone who knows God or Christ would not mistake a devil claiming to be God or Christ. The contrast is unmistakable. And a person who has experience communicating with the spirit world will not be fooled by any impersonator. (Speaking from experience.) Granted if you don't have any experience and you don't have any discernment and a devil showed up and claimed to be someone you didn't know, a person might just accept it without question and be deceived. I've never heard of an evil spirit trying to impersonate someone, but I have heard them claim to be someone, like the only begotten son of God. But there is a vast difference between a claim and impersonating. Having personal experience, there is no possible way Satan or his "imps" could impersonate Jesus Christ, God or a true angel of God to anyone who has experienced the real deal.

Remember Moses said that after visiting with the Lord Satan showed up and claimed to be the son of God. Satan didn't and couldn't impersonate the Lord. There was no way Moses could be deceived.
12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
Surely if it was possible Satan would have attempted to impersonate the Lord rather than just claiming to be the only begotten.

Again, I could see someone who had never known the Lord just accept a devil's words, like Joseph said in that long quote I think you provided.
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
This right here is an important point. Satan doesn't actually win any ground through deception. Agency requires knowledge. If you accidentally or unintentionally choose good, you have no eternal reward and if you accidentally or unintentionally do evil you remain innocent covered by the atonement. Sin required knowledge. If you are deceived it means you lack knowledge or accept for truth that which isn't true. We all do that to some degree and we are all innocent of anything we do under deception. At some point we will be given the truth and the option to choose good from evil. But our choice has to to be knowledge or we don't have agency. So there is no real win in Satan deceiving us or tricking us to do evil.

Satan has power in the Telestial world among Telestial people. When we become Terrestrial people/born of God, (enter in at the gate and receive the Holy Ghost), he looses his power over us. (Assuming that we have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and it doesn't cease to strive with us.) At that point, we have already chosen the good and passed that part of life's test.

As Terrestrial people we need to be more concerned with being blinded by the craftiness of men which will damn us and prevent us from becoming Celestial. We need to rely on the arm of the spirit more than the arm of flesh.

~Seeker
Not to argue, but to post why I figure he can appear as God or as a God.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.




13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


As far as someone knowing God and having a knowledge of the truth, they can also turn away.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Pazooka »

I’ve always wanted to know the story behind this reference:
D&C 128:20 The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light!

And then there’s the story about Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon: While he was translating he stopped suddenly and said, “Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?” When she answered “Yes,” he replied “Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.”

It appears even Joseph Smith doesn’t seem to have been 100% deceive-free during his lifetime.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Seeker144k »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 7:14 pm
Seeker144k wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 6:27 pm
simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 12:50 pm
For example, have you read the book "Life Everlasting" ? Plenty of stories in there of people having contact with loved ones. I am not against that, but, the danger of deception is so very real.
I agree people can be deceived. Not just by spirits, but by people, especially church leaders.
Messages from God and or His representatives are very plain and simple, and there is always a message of light and intelligence if it is from God.
Everything is plain and simple when understood correctly. Our history is filled with myths that plain and simply explain rain, lightening, earthquakes and other phenomenon which are quite wrong. I still see people express interesting superstition just like we have seen in this thread. Sounds simple and plain, but completely wrong can be passed off as true.
But the devil and his imps can absolutely imitate anybody at anytime, including any prophet and loved ones and also including God,(or at least do a very good imitation of Him)
This is the part that got me to comment. This is not true. At least not to someone who knows anything about the workings of the spirit. Sure, a very inexperienced person with little to no spirit of discernment might be visited by the devil who claims to be the son of God and be tricked into believing it because they have never met Jesus Christ for themselves. But anyone who knows God or Christ would not mistake a devil claiming to be God or Christ. The contrast is unmistakable. And a person who has experience communicating with the spirit world will not be fooled by any impersonator. (Speaking from experience.) Granted if you don't have any experience and you don't have any discernment and a devil showed up and claimed to be someone you didn't know, a person might just accept it without question and be deceived. I've never heard of an evil spirit trying to impersonate someone, but I have heard them claim to be someone, like the only begotten son of God. But there is a vast difference between a claim and impersonating. Having personal experience, there is no possible way Satan or his "imps" could impersonate Jesus Christ, God or a true angel of God to anyone who has experienced the real deal.

Remember Moses said that after visiting with the Lord Satan showed up and claimed to be the son of God. Satan didn't and couldn't impersonate the Lord. There was no way Moses could be deceived.
12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
Surely if it was possible Satan would have attempted to impersonate the Lord rather than just claiming to be the only begotten.

Again, I could see someone who had never known the Lord just accept a devil's words, like Joseph said in that long quote I think you provided.
Being subject to the fiery days of the adversary is part of this mortal existence. It is necessary that we taste of the evil that we may learn to appreciate the good. It is imperative that we learn to know evil and its consequences that we may perhaps learn to overcome it with good.
This right here is an important point. Satan doesn't actually win any ground through deception. Agency requires knowledge. If you accidentally or unintentionally choose good, you have no eternal reward and if you accidentally or unintentionally do evil you remain innocent covered by the atonement. Sin required knowledge. If you are deceived it means you lack knowledge or accept for truth that which isn't true. We all do that to some degree and we are all innocent of anything we do under deception. At some point we will be given the truth and the option to choose good from evil. But our choice has to to be knowledge or we don't have agency. So there is no real win in Satan deceiving us or tricking us to do evil.

Satan has power in the Telestial world among Telestial people. When we become Terrestrial people/born of God, (enter in at the gate and receive the Holy Ghost), he looses his power over us. (Assuming that we have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and it doesn't cease to strive with us.) At that point, we have already chosen the good and passed that part of life's test.

As Terrestrial people we need to be more concerned with being blinded by the craftiness of men which will damn us and prevent us from becoming Celestial. We need to rely on the arm of the spirit more than the arm of flesh.

~Seeker
Not to argue, but to post why I figure he can appear as God or as a God.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I get what you're saying. But this verse is very clear to point out that the son of perdition does not attempt to impersonate God. It specifically says, he "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God". This is in no way acting like or impersonating God. But he does take God's place, not in heaven or in the lives of the righteous, but on earth, just as Satan is a god of this world. He is claiming to be God but not impersonating God.

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Again claiming to be apostles but not acting like or impersonating them. Calling evil good and good evil.

But I see what you are saying, they impersonate by claim, but not by action. So I can see how we are both correct. You're saying that they act in the position of apostle and claim to be apostles which is a form of impersonating. And I'm saying that it doesn't matter if they say they are or sit in the position because they aren't and don't act like apostles. But the fact is that some people will mistake them for apostles because of their claim and position not realizing that they are not aligned with Christ or acting like true apostles. (Wow, can help but see the correlation with the Q15 that are leading the church.)
As far as someone knowing God and having a knowledge of the truth, they can also turn away.
When someone who knows God and His goodness at a Celestial level turns away and chooses to become a son of perdition, it is not because they have been deceived, it is with certain knowledge. It happens when they love evil more than good. Being godly means allowing agency and using the principles of righteousness. Not the easy path. Some people discover how God works and realize that they are more into force, threats, demanded obedience and the methods of Satan. They turn away and will not come back because they know both options and prefer the dark to the light.

~Seeker

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Robin Hood »

Seeker144k wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:49 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:43 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am

Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
There is not a single scripture in this thread that says evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones. I can't find any scripture that says anything about this. I did find something that says they might try to appear as an angel of light, but nothing that says they try to impersonate deceased loved ones.

Perhaps is there a well known talk I don't know about that addresses this?

Peace,
Amonhi
Who do you think mediums speak to when they have a message from Grandma?
Wait, your source is a biased assumption?

Isn't it believed that missionaries, prophets and church leaders are taught, directed and inspired by angels on the other side of the veil all the time? Who's talking to them?

If you're gonna make a blanket assumption like that you might as well apply it universally to everyone and we should assume that the dead prophet Mormom was an evil spirit impersonating a dead guy when talking to Joseph Smith.

I've read that in the Millennium the veil will be thin and the living will talk to the dead directly to accomplish the great work for the dead.

Where are you drawing the line? You're responses appear to universally reject the idea that any righteous dead person will ever talk to us, but then you said that you have a family story where it happened. If their was and validity to your responses, then every one of them could be used to prove your own story to be a false spirit. And possibly nearly every revelation of Joseph Smith that was received through the veil. Where's the line?

~Seeker
I already said why I take the position I do. But if you can't be bothered to read the thread you wouldn't know that.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Jonesy »

darknesstolight wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:07 am
nightlight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 7:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.
Moses 1:11
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural (physical), but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 6:35-36
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.
“For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” - D&C 138:50

“For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.” - D&C 45:17

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” - D&C
It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson
IDK...

I found my dad dead when I was a teenager...after the ambulance got there I walked out side and sat on the curb under my basketball hoop....while i was sitting there in shock I found myself moving up. I rose up like 15 feet(I was above the rim of the hoop) and I was looking down at myself sitting on the curb ..then I looked up at the sky, which was a thick blue. Then I went back in.
Sounds ridiculous...but that is exactly what happened, I remember it like yesterday... everything was I was looking at was thick
As a child I experienced the same phenomenon during a highly traumatic experience. When I was six years old while I was being raped I completely left my body. I was in the room looking out a window waiting for someone, anyone to rescue me while my body was being violated.

It is actually common for trauma victims to experience out of body situations. It's a severe form of dissociation. It's a protection mechanism.

...
What about the point of visual perception between spirits and the living? Was there a difference as to what Amonhi was speaking to?

Amonhi? What is your take?

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Jonesy wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 1:34 am
darknesstolight wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:07 am
nightlight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 7:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.



You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.



It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson
IDK...

I found my dad dead when I was a teenager...after the ambulance got there I walked out side and sat on the curb under my basketball hoop....while i was sitting there in shock I found myself moving up. I rose up like 15 feet(I was above the rim of the hoop) and I was looking down at myself sitting on the curb ..then I looked up at the sky, which was a thick blue. Then I went back in.
Sounds ridiculous...but that is exactly what happened, I remember it like yesterday... everything was I was looking at was thick
As a child I experienced the same phenomenon during a highly traumatic experience. When I was six years old while I was being raped I completely left my body. I was in the room looking out a window waiting for someone, anyone to rescue me while my body was being violated.

It is actually common for trauma victims to experience out of body situations. It's a severe form of dissociation. It's a protection mechanism.

...
What about the point of visual perception between spirits and the living? Was there a difference as to what Amonhi was speaking to?

Amonhi? What is your take?
Hard to describe and I was six. At the time I wasn't focusing on the experience of being out of body. I was escaping.

This was such a crazy thing I thought for a long time it wasn't real. But then I learned that this happens in trauma situations. And I could not shake the memory.

I was sitting/floating on a desk that faced a window to the front yard. Colors seemed muted but I could tell where I was. It felt like I was only out of my body seconds yet it must have been longer than that because I didn't return to my body until my mother came home and caught my grandmother doing what she was doing. My mom was a single mom at the time and she'd leave me at grandma's place. It was normally all day but in hindsight I believe my mom came back early this time because she forgot something. I saw her walk in from the back door and walk in to the kitchen area and then in to the bedroom where I was at. My perspective was from that desk next to window which from that point of view I could see in through the door way that lead in to kitchen and back hallway/entrance. When my mother picked me up I rushed back in to my body. I remember my mom saying "No more!" and my grandma saying I won't remeber anything anyways.

I havent considered this question before. I haven't tried to think about the physical details like that. So in thinking about your question time seemed weird. Colors were not exactly the same. Everything physical seemed muted to me. Everything was there yet not quite as real as before. I didn't know what was happening to me but it felt normal at the time. I wasn't scared of being out of body.

...

Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

Jonesy wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 1:34 am
What about the point of visual perception between spirits and the living? Was there a difference as to what Amonhi was speaking to?

Amonhi? What is your take?
That's a really good question.

In visions I see things and I am aware of color. In my mind I say, "I saw". But clearly not with my physical eyes.

I've also had experiences where I saw through physical walls and was able to confirm what was happening several rooms away. From my viewpoint I was aware of the building, but had no issue "seeing" straight through it as if the solid walls were transparent as glass. I know that I was seeing reality because it was confirmed by the person in the other room. I was able to watch them for several hours and told them exactly what they did, in order, where they did it, etc. But the fact that I could see through the building/walls tells me that I was not seeing the normal spectrum of light that doesn't pass through walls. I may have been viewing a different spectrum of light perhaps. This was experienced from the location and viewpoint of my physical body, but using my spiritual eyes. I don't recall seeing color or not. Which is really strange to not recall. My memory recalls a muted color tone (gray scale or green scale), but I never thought of it before so I don't know if that's correct. Kind of freaks my mind out thinking about it.

But in visions and "remote viewing" I am nowhere near my physical body. I am very aware of colors brighter and more vividly that normal. But I've had experiences where I "felt colors with my hands". So I'm not sure if I am seeing color, aware of color or feeling it. Time to do some serious experiments.

Peace,
Amonhi

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Enoch »

Sign seeking is when you look for signs to prove or disprove something using your limited knowledge and understanding rather than paying attention to the spirit and the fruits of the spirit. That doesn't mean that the signs are not there, but that using the signs as your means of determining what is going on is the wrong way to move forward and can lead you to reject the good and accept the bad.

Not sure if this provided you any useful or that you didn't already know. (Maybe some feedback would be nice.)

Peace,
Amonhi
Yes, definitely.

Can you give describe a situation of sign seeking vs paying attention to the spirit, I want to have a better grasp of it?

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Enoch
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Enoch »


Perhaps a question to the group. Would you rather talk to someone through the veil and find out through your interaction that they are not all knowing perfect angels or God, or would you rather not talk to anyone through the veil because you might talk to someone imperfect?

Peace,
Amonhi
I'd rather try to have the experience, and make mistakes, then not be talk to someone through the veil.

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Enoch
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Enoch »

The Holy Ghost is the voice of the Lord. It spiritually feels like life, goodness, insight, love peace, joy, spiritual food and water. It brings revelation and understanding beyond what we could receive without it. IT is light and Goodness. We feel it inside ourselves. (We can recognize it outside of us as well, but then it isn't in us and we are observing it and separate from it.)
Yes, this is how I perceive it also. It gives you wisdom/insight, it empowers you to do good, enlightens, strengthens, it's makes you happier, more positive, and feel love for others.
The Holy Ghost is an internal experience that feels good and wonderful and motivates us to greater good. It isn't just a feeling of love, or happiness, which at times confuses people into thinking they are feeling the spirit when they are feeling emotions. So the spirit comes with its fruits which make us more loving, peaceful and kind, but it also comes with increased intelligence, awareness, and light.
Yes, I that's been my experience also.
Not sure if that helps a bit more. It is very hard to describe with words because I know that if I say "love" that it is correct but incomplete. Same with the feeling of joy, peace, goodness, etc. It is all these things and more. A combination of goodness in both heart and mind.
Agree, it is accompanied by light, truth, and a power that doesn't reside in other things.
It is the voice of the shepherd. I know his voice from other voices.
Yes, his voice has power, life, love... so much different from the low vibe of other things.
I've walked people through a process where we pray and ask God to help us to learn to recognize the Holy Ghost by first sending it. Spending a minute feeling it and discussing it then praying and asking God to take it away so we can understand what it feels like to not have it and then repeating that process several times so that we could gain a VERY clear understanding of the difference. (Of course ending the lesson with the spirit so that we concluded on a positive note.) I have discovered that God is very willing and happy to help us and lessons like this can be extremely helpful in learning. (God loves to help with experiments on the word of God.)

Peace,
Amonhi
This sounds like a great method to learn how to feel it.

So there are times when I can clearly discern, and in these experiences I feel that the light just comes. I know I'm not creating it. I might not even be really seeking, just trying to do what I feel will brings me closer to the God.

1. After I've read and studied the scriptures, then as I share with my family, I can feel a flow of ideas, they connect seamlessly to each other, and scripture reference after scripture reference will come to my mind. At the end I feel so much more connected to doing good, being good, and striving to live lovingly.

2. Another experience is when I am reading scriptures or words of others shared by the spirit there is this light, and truth in the words, they make sense, I can tell here, that the Savior gave these words, his voice/power is felt in them. They give understanding, joy and strength.

3. In a difficult decision, after thinking it through, pondering the various avenues, it feel right, like a feeling of peace, of assurance that things will be ok. (not that there won't be any struggles, but that the way will be open for us)

4. When I have been able to understand the message coming through, (very few times), the one I remember the most was to be firm and strong with someone, when I thought and felt it was the wrong way to go about the situation. but I followed through and the result was their heart turned toward me instead of against me.

5. The presence of God/Savior which was unmistakable as fulness of love I had never experienced.

All of these have come to me, without me really expecting an answer or even an experience.

I guess what I want is to be able to take my questions directly to the Lord and have him confirm if my conclusions are correct. I think it is different because all these other ones I haven't ever expected an answer or sought them thinking something would come through. When I have tried though, I don't know what I'm doing wrong, I don't get a sure response...

or maybe I think it through in the wrong way, that is where I'm kinda stuck..

What do you think?

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by XEmilyX »

Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.
Moses 1:11
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural (physical), but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 6:35-36
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.
“For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” - D&C 138:50

“For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.” - D&C 45:17

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” - D&C
It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson


Since I was trying to message amonhi about this and didn't recieve a response I'll post it in here. Can a being with a body, become invisible and as if they do not have a body? Due to powers. You cannot touch them sense them etc. They can walk through walls etc.

I was on my flight to Alaska just yesterday and there was a ton of turbulence for a long time at least 30 minutes off and on and I was scared. The voice of Jesus came to me and said I will make the way clear for you, I will calm the winds. Or something like that. I was scared of the winds. Well it took a few minutes like a couple, and it shocked me that there were no more turbulent winds the next 45 minutes.
It made me realize I was talking to Jesus.

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BeNotDeceived
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Letters 5-7

Post by BeNotDeceived »

nightlight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 7:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.
Moses 1:11
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural (physical), but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 6:35-36
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.
“For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” - D&C 138:50

“For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.” - D&C 45:17

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” - D&C
It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson
IDK...

I found my dad dead when I was a teenager...after the ambulance got there I walked out side and sat on the curb under my basketball hoop....while i was sitting there in shock I found myself moving up. I rose up like 15 feet(I was above the rim of the hoop) and I was looking down at myself sitting on the curb ..then I looked up at the sky, which was a thick blue. Then I went back in.
Sounds ridiculous...but that is exactly what happened, I remember it like yesterday... everything was I was looking at was thick
Image

Weird the thick blue letters at: viewtopic.php?p=1349763#p1349763

Then waking up thinking Charlie Hotel Romeo India recalling my post about Meridian Avenue.

Sorry about your dad. :(

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 7:30 pm I’ve always wanted to know the story behind this reference:
D&C 128:20 The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light!

And then there’s the story about Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon: While he was translating he stopped suddenly and said, “Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?” When she answered “Yes,” he replied “Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.”

It appears even Joseph Smith doesn’t seem to have been 100% deceive-free during his lifetime.
Most cities before the 1800s had walls around them. Some still do.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by BeNotDeceived »

XEmilyX wrote: June 6th, 2021, 9:07 am
Since I was trying to message amonhi about this and didn't recieve a response I'll post it in here. Can a being with a body, become invisible and as if they do not have a body? Due to powers. You cannot touch them sense them etc. They can walk through walls etc.

I was on my flight to Alaska just yesterday and there was a ton of turbulence for a long time at least 30 minutes off and on and I was scared. The voice of Jesus came to me and said I will make the way clear for you, I will calm the winds. Or something like that. I was scared of the winds. Well it took a few minutes like a couple, and it shocked me that there were no more turbulent winds the next 45 minutes.
It made me realize I was talking to Jesus.
Wow talking to Jesus and flying to Alaska in June.

It don't get no better than that. :lol:

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