Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

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Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:56 pm
By false spirit you mean a lying and evil intentioned spirit?
Are you saying you don't think it was the person it claimed to be?

Peace,
Amonhi
Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
Oh, so there was nothing in the story itself, you are just assuming based on your belief that since "It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones", this must be an evil spirit impersonating a deceased loved one. And you came to that conclusion before reading the experience.

Do you feel that you experienced a spiritual impression from the Holy Ghost or a natural reaction caused by cognitive bias?
A cognitive bias is a strong, preconceived notion of someone or something, based on information we have, perceive to have, or lack. These preconceptions are mental shortcuts the human brain produces to expedite information processing—to quickly help it make sense of what it is seeing.
Peace,
Amonhi

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Robin Hood
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Robin Hood »

Amonhi wrote: May 1st, 2021, 10:42 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm

Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
Oh, so there was nothing in the story itself, you are just assuming based on your belief that since "It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones", this must be an evil spirit impersonating a deceased loved one. And you came to that conclusion before reading the experience.

Do you feel that you experienced a spiritual impression from the Holy Ghost or a natural reaction caused by cognitive bias?
A cognitive bias is a strong, preconceived notion of someone or something, based on information we have, perceive to have, or lack. These preconceptions are mental shortcuts the human brain produces to expedite information processing—to quickly help it make sense of what it is seeing.
Peace,
Amonhi
I have no cognitive bias on this issue. Indeed, there is an incident in my family where a grieving mother was comforted by her son who had passed on a few wwwks previously.
It was definitely a strong impression I received when I began to read the account you posted. I have absolutely no doubt at all that the incident occured and I am equally certain it was from a false spirit.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:56 pm
By false spirit you mean a lying and evil intentioned spirit?
Are you saying you don't think it was the person it claimed to be?

Peace,
Amonhi
Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I didn't know this.

You seem to have a belief in evil spirits but not good spirits.

...

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Robin Hood
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Robin Hood »

darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:12 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm

Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I didn't know this.

You seem to have a belief in evil spirits but not good spirits.

...
It appears I'm not the only one demonstrating "cognitive bias"!

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Enoch
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Enoch »

Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:20 pm
Even true messengers much be checked against the Holy Ghost on every message. Don't assume that just because Amonhi spoke by the spirit in one instance you can trust everything he says in another instance. Same thing applys to the Bishop, president of the church and anyone else including disembodied people.

Lol. Right! True messengers don't mind being questioned or double checked and don't expect to be followed blindly. They don't try to override your agency. It a stark contrast with those who want you to do things and get mad when you don't.
This is part is very interesting, checking against the Spirit, also that good spirits don’t use force, or override agency.

Somethings will be easier to discern as false in that they will cause us or others emotional/physical/temporal harm or as you said will take away free will.

What is your process to check against the Holy Ghost?
Last edited by Enoch on May 1st, 2021, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:22 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:12 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I didn't know this.

You seem to have a belief in evil spirits but not good spirits.

...
It appears I'm not the only one demonstrating "cognitive bias"!
You say it's well known that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives.

That isn't known to me. Well known to me is something like the sun sets in the West and rises in the East. It's also demonstrably true. Well known things are.

We have evil spirits and good spirits. You are claiming evil spirits impersonate dead relatives to such a degree that it's well known. By why? Why would this be a well known thing?

Only evil spirits would impersonate a relative because a good relative wouldn't deceive. But my common sense says that I'm just as likely to talk to an evil spirit as I am to be talking with a good spirit.

Unless only evil spirits can talk to us then I don't see why we would think that when you are talking to a relative it's probably an evil spirit.

Also if you know of a case where a family member was visited by a dead relative why is that a legit visitation but this one is from evil?

At the end of the day I don't see any rule that would lead me to automatically assume evil spirit. I don't see anything in what was said that gives us a prepoderance of a reason to assume evil when it could be either or.

...

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Jonesy
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Jonesy »

Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:56 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 3:10 pm

The moment I started to read it I was immediately struck with the strong impression it was from a false spirit.
By false spirit you mean a lying and evil intentioned spirit?
Are you saying you don't think it was the person it claimed to be?

Peace,
Amonhi
Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
I would appreciate a response to simpleton’s post above. That would be helpful.

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True
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by True »

darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:22 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:12 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am

It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I didn't know this.

You seem to have a belief in evil spirits but not good spirits.

...
It appears I'm not the only one demonstrating "cognitive bias"!
You say it's well known that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives.

That isn't known to me. Well known to me is something like the sun sets in the West and rises in the East. It's also demonstrably true. Well known things are.

We have evil spirits and good spirits. You are claiming evil spirits impersonate dead relatives to such a degree that it's well known. By why? Why would this be a well known thing?

Only evil spirits would impersonate a relative because a good relative wouldn't deceive. But my common sense says that I'm just as likely to talk to an evil spirit as I am to be talking with a good spirit.

Unless only evil spirits can talk to us then I don't see why we would think that when you are talking to a relative it's probably an evil spirit.

Also if you know of a case where a family member was visited by a dead relative why is that a legit visitation but this one is from evil?

At the end of the day I don't see any rule that would lead me to automatically assume evil spirit. I don't see anything in what was said that gives us a prepoderance of a reason to assume evil when it could be either or.

...
This just goes to show that you never watched TLC’s Long Island Medium. When you watch that show it will be common knowledge to you that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives. It’s the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this. That and the scripture referenced above.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

True wrote: May 1st, 2021, 5:50 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:22 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:12 am

I didn't know this.

You seem to have a belief in evil spirits but not good spirits.

...
It appears I'm not the only one demonstrating "cognitive bias"!
You say it's well known that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives.

That isn't known to me. Well known to me is something like the sun sets in the West and rises in the East. It's also demonstrably true. Well known things are.

We have evil spirits and good spirits. You are claiming evil spirits impersonate dead relatives to such a degree that it's well known. By why? Why would this be a well known thing?

Only evil spirits would impersonate a relative because a good relative wouldn't deceive. But my common sense says that I'm just as likely to talk to an evil spirit as I am to be talking with a good spirit.

Unless only evil spirits can talk to us then I don't see why we would think that when you are talking to a relative it's probably an evil spirit.

Also if you know of a case where a family member was visited by a dead relative why is that a legit visitation but this one is from evil?

At the end of the day I don't see any rule that would lead me to automatically assume evil spirit. I don't see anything in what was said that gives us a prepoderance of a reason to assume evil when it could be either or.

...
This just goes to show that you never watched TLC’s Long Island Medium. When you watch that show it will be common knowledge to you that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives. It’s the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this. That and the scripture referenced above.
Hehe.

Not sure if this is satire or not.

...

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True
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by True »

darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 7:01 pm
True wrote: May 1st, 2021, 5:50 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:22 pm

It appears I'm not the only one demonstrating "cognitive bias"!
You say it's well known that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives.

That isn't known to me. Well known to me is something like the sun sets in the West and rises in the East. It's also demonstrably true. Well known things are.

We have evil spirits and good spirits. You are claiming evil spirits impersonate dead relatives to such a degree that it's well known. By why? Why would this be a well known thing?

Only evil spirits would impersonate a relative because a good relative wouldn't deceive. But my common sense says that I'm just as likely to talk to an evil spirit as I am to be talking with a good spirit.

Unless only evil spirits can talk to us then I don't see why we would think that when you are talking to a relative it's probably an evil spirit.

Also if you know of a case where a family member was visited by a dead relative why is that a legit visitation but this one is from evil?

At the end of the day I don't see any rule that would lead me to automatically assume evil spirit. I don't see anything in what was said that gives us a prepoderance of a reason to assume evil when it could be either or.

...
This just goes to show that you never watched TLC’s Long Island Medium. When you watch that show it will be common knowledge to you that evil spirits impersonate dead relatives. It’s the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this. That and the scripture referenced above.
Hehe.

Not sure if this is satire or not.

...
Me either! I think you’re going to have to watch a few episodes to find out:)

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nightlight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by nightlight »

Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.
Moses 1:11
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural (physical), but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 6:35-36
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.
“For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” - D&C 138:50

“For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.” - D&C 45:17

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” - D&C
It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson
IDK...

I found my dad dead when I was a teenager...after the ambulance got there I walked out side and sat on the curb under my basketball hoop....while i was sitting there in shock I found myself moving up. I rose up like 15 feet(I was above the rim of the hoop) and I was looking down at myself sitting on the curb ..then I looked up at the sky, which was a thick blue. Then I went back in.
Sounds ridiculous...but that is exactly what happened, I remember it like yesterday... everything was I was looking at was thick

Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the this thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

edify wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:36 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:20 pm
Even true messengers much be checked against the Holy Ghost on every message. Don't assume that just because Amonhi spoke by the spirit in one instance you can trust everything he says in another instance. Same thing applys to the Bishop, president of the church and anyone else including disembodied people.

Lol. Right! True messengers don't mind being questioned or double checked and don't expect to be followed blindly. They don't try to override your agency. It a stark contrast with those who want you to do things and get mad when you don't.
This is part is very interesting, checking against the Spirit, also that good spirits don’t use force, or override agency.

Somethings will be easier to discern as false in that they will cause us or others emotional/physical/temporal harm or as you said will take away free will.

What is your process to check against the Holy Ghost?
Same as dealing with men/women in the flesh. Disembodied people are still people, just disembodied. All the same rules apply just as with physical people.

There is a wide range of disembodied people just as there is a wide range of embodied people. Some are really really bad and some are really really good and the rest fall anywhere in the range between. But even when an angel of light appears to us claiming to be Mormon or the Son of God, we always, always should pay attention to the Holy Ghost.

Now, I have seen some of people receive great revelations and very useful information but they determined that it was not from God because they were sign seeking and not following the spirit. Sign seeking is when you look for signs to prove or disprove something using your limited knowledge and understanding rather than paying attention to the spirit and the fruits of the spirit. That doesn't mean that the signs are not there, but that using the signs as your means of determining what is going on is the wrong way to move forward and can lead you to reject the good and accept the bad.

Not sure if this provided you any useful or that you didn't already know. (Maybe some feedback would be nice.)

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:56 pm
By false spirit you mean a lying and evil intentioned spirit?
Are you saying you don't think it was the person it claimed to be?

Peace,
Amonhi
Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi

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Robin Hood
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Robin Hood »

Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2021, 5:32 pm

Yes, absolutely.
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
I did. I don't see anywhere where it reads what you said. Plus you said that your family hasban experience where a dead son spoke to a grieving mother. Why wasn't that an evil spirit and these are?

...

Amonhi
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:41 am
edify wrote: May 1st, 2021, 3:36 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:20 pm
Even true messengers much be checked against the Holy Ghost on every message. Don't assume that just because Amonhi spoke by the spirit in one instance you can trust everything he says in another instance. Same thing applys to the Bishop, president of the church and anyone else including disembodied people.

Lol. Right! True messengers don't mind being questioned or double checked and don't expect to be followed blindly. They don't try to override your agency. It a stark contrast with those who want you to do things and get mad when you don't.
This is part is very interesting, checking against the Spirit, also that good spirits don’t use force, or override agency.

Somethings will be easier to discern as false in that they will cause us or others emotional/physical/temporal harm or as you said will take away free will.

What is your process to check against the Holy Ghost?
Same as dealing with men/women in the flesh. Disembodied people are still people, just disembodied. All the same rules apply just as with physical people.

There is a wide range of disembodied people just as there is a wide range of embodied people. Some are really really bad and some are really really good and the rest fall anywhere in the range between. But even when an angel of light appears to us claiming to be Mormon or the Son of God, we always, always should pay attention to the Holy Ghost.

Now, I have seen some of people receive great revelations and very useful information but they determined that it was not from God because they were sign seeking and not following the spirit. Sign seeking is when you look for signs to prove or disprove something using your limited knowledge and understanding rather than paying attention to the spirit and the fruits of the spirit. That doesn't mean that the signs are not there, but that using the signs as your means of determining what is going on is the wrong way to move forward and can lead you to reject the good and accept the bad.

Not sure if this provided you any useful or that you didn't already know. (Maybe some feedback would be nice.)

Peace,
Amonhi
I was thinking about my response to your question and I didn't actually answer your question by telling you "my process to check against the Holy Ghost".

I kind of told you what not to do, sign seeking.

The Holy Ghost is the voice of the Lord. It spiritually feels like life, goodness, insight, love peace, joy, spiritual food and water. It brings revelation and understanding beyond what we could receive without it. IT is light and Goodness. We feel it inside ourselves. (We can recognize it outside of us as well, but then it isn't in us and we are observing it and separate from it.)

LOL, how do you describe the taste of salt?

The Holy Ghost is an internal experience that feels good and wonderful and motivates us to greater good. It isn't just a feeling of love, or happiness, which at times confuses people into thinking they are feeling the spirit when they are feeling emotions. So the spirit comes with its fruits which make us more loving, peaceful and kind, but it also comes with increased intelligence, awareness, and light.

Not sure if that helps a bit more. It is very hard to describe with words because I know that if I say "love" that it is correct but incomplete. Same with the feeling of joy, peace, goodness, etc. It is all these things and more. A combination of goodness in both heart and mind. It is the voice of the shepherd. I know his voice from other voices. I've walked people through a process where we pray and ask God to help us to learn to recognize the Holy Ghost by first sending it. Spending a minute feeling it and discussing it then praying and asking God to take it away so we can understand what it feels like to not have it and then repeating that process several times so that we could gain a VERY clear understanding of the difference. (Of course ending the lesson with the spirit so that we concluded on a positive note.) I have discovered that God is very willing and happy to help us and lessons like this can be extremely helpful in learning. (God loves to help with experiments on the word of God.)

Peace,
Amonhi

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Amonhi »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am
Amonhi wrote: April 30th, 2021, 6:29 pm
I expect you didn't know the person in life or the spirit claiming to be the person, so are you assuming that any spirit claiming to be someone is a false spirit or was there something in the post specifically that indicated they were not the same person or that the spirit was evil?

Peace,
Amonhi
It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
There is not a single scripture in this thread that says evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones. I can't find any scripture that says anything about this. I did find something that says they might try to appear as an angel of light, but nothing that says they try to impersonate deceased loved ones.

Perhaps is there a well known talk I don't know about that addresses this?

Peace,
Amonhi

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:43 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am

It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
There is not a single scripture in this thread that says evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones. I can't find any scripture that says anything about this. I did find something that says they might try to appear as an angel of light, but nothing that says they try to impersonate deceased loved ones.

Perhaps is there a well known talk I don't know about that addresses this?

Peace,
Amonhi
Apparently you have to watch a TLC show and then it will all become clear

...

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Robin Hood »

Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:43 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 10:10 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:47 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2021, 1:04 am

It is well known that evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones.
I can't find any references to this idea. Can you provide a few for me to look into?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Read the scriptures. A number of references have been posted in this thread.
There is not a single scripture in this thread that says evil spirits impersonate deceased loved ones. I can't find any scripture that says anything about this. I did find something that says they might try to appear as an angel of light, but nothing that says they try to impersonate deceased loved ones.

Perhaps is there a well known talk I don't know about that addresses this?

Peace,
Amonhi
Who do you think mediums speak to when they have a message from Grandma?

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

nightlight wrote: May 1st, 2021, 7:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: April 28th, 2021, 1:35 pm The following three letters are by an Elliaison contributor writing to his two nephews and niece on their mission. His missionary letters are being added to the Elliaison.org website, so I have permission to share them.

*** MISSIONARY LETTER 5 - Interview with the Recently Deceased***

Dear Elder Peterson,

The following is a true story about an experience Rebecca and I had with your grandpa James (Jim) Peterson shortly after he died. I hope it helps you understand why we wanted to be born to get physical bodies. Also, realize that you have a spiritual body as well as a physical body and if you learn to use your spiritual eyes and ears, you will be able to interact with the spiritual world just as you currently do the physical world. Just because we have a physical body does not mean that we cannot use our spiritual bodies.
Moses 1:11
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural (physical), but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 6:35-36
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

You can learn to do this if you want by paying attention to your spiritual body the same way you do your physical body. It's a super power we are all born with because we are all spirits (first estate) and bodies (second estate).

Interview with the Recently Deceased
A True Experience by Philip and Rebecca Stevenson

James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died. Rebecca and I had become extremely close with him the last few years of his life. About a week after he died, Rebecca and I were at his house in her old bedroom when he visited with us. We had had many experiences with our spiritual bodies by this point and were very familiar with recognizing and using our spiritual bodies in connection with our physical bodies. (Most people are only ware of their physical body and interact with the physical world unaware that they have and can use their spirit body to interact with the spiritual world.)

Because Jim was dead, he no longer had a physical body to interact with us physically. But we being both physical and spiritual beings had the ability to interact in both worlds, and so interacted with Jim.
He shared with us his new understanding as a recently deceased person who no longer had a physical body. To his surprise he was not able to see us they way he used to be able to because he no longer had physical eyes. He couldn't hear the physical sound of our voices because he didn't have physical ears to hear with anymore. He couldn't hold us or touch us because he didn't have physical arms or fingers to do so. He was aware of us and was only able to interact with us spiritually because he was alive spiritually, but not physically.
He said that he could see but not with his physical eyes, only with his spiritual eyes the same way he had seen spiritually when he was alive, which is the same way that we were seeing him. (There is a difference.) He said he could hear with his spiritual ears but not his physical ears, just as we could both hear him with our spiritual ears.
He explained that based on the pictures he was familiar with from church, spirit people look just like physical people and there was an assumption that spiritual people have all the abilities of physical people. He had never considered that spirits couldn't see colors and light the same way physical people do. In life he thought that he spirit could do everything the body could do and didn't see or understand why having a physical body was so desirable. And while in the physical, he desired to be more spiritually aware, constantly trying to subdue the body as if it were a curse. But now he realized the great blessing his body was and how much he was missing because he didn't have it anymore.
“For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.” - D&C 138:50

“For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.” - D&C 45:17

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” - D&C
It seemed he felt limited or even like he was handicapped. He explained that because he had received his calling and election made sure in life as well as other spiritual growth that he was far ahead of the game when compared with others he could see who had died.

With Love and Faith,
Philip Stevenson
IDK...

I found my dad dead when I was a teenager...after the ambulance got there I walked out side and sat on the curb under my basketball hoop....while i was sitting there in shock I found myself moving up. I rose up like 15 feet(I was above the rim of the hoop) and I was looking down at myself sitting on the curb ..then I looked up at the sky, which was a thick blue. Then I went back in.
Sounds ridiculous...but that is exactly what happened, I remember it like yesterday... everything was I was looking at was thick
As a child I experienced the same phenomenon during a highly traumatic experience. When I was six years old while I was being raped I completely left my body. I was in the room looking out a window waiting for someone, anyone to rescue me while my body was being violated.

It is actually common for trauma victims to experience out of body situations. It's a severe form of dissociation. It's a protection mechanism.

...

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Pazooka »

The OP makes perfect sense to me.

The flip-side: Those who consult with familiar spirits are supposed to be attended by an invisible spirit who is subject to their call in order to supply them with supernatural information. By definition of the term, the spirit subject to the medium is an unclean spirit.

You don’t have a flip-side without there being a right-side.

We are surrounded by spirits, just like we’re surrounded by embodied people and they vary on the scale from unholy to holy just like (and probably more than) folks in mortality.

Discernment

The only way my own understanding differs from the ideas presented in the OP is that I believe the Holy Ghost is an office filled by more than one spirit, consisting of those who are made holy through the blood of the Lamb, yet organized under Priesthood keys and authority to testify, comfort, protect, guide, serve, etc the family of man according to the mind and will of God.

There can’t JUST be holy (made perfect through the blood of Jesus) and evil spirits who are available for communication - there’s everyone in between. The spirit world is located on this earth. Having a convo with a good, descent spirit who is making their way toward holiness isn’t such a far-fetched idea, for me.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by simpleton »

Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.

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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by Pazooka »

simpleton wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:37 am
Amonhi wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am
simpleton wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:13 am "And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people"

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God"

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

"And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"

"And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger"

Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"

Isaiah 19:3 "And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards"


And that is exactly what is going on here. I can't believe that so many are succumbing to this practice. Robin Hood hit the nail.
Wow, now we're really in a pickle. ;)

It seems that you've found what appears to be a contradiction in the scriptures. You just listed a whole bunch of Old Testament Scriptures that appear to say that we should "put away those that have familiar spirits". And your interpretation seems to include a mother being visited and comforted by a deceased child.

More specifically, the Lord tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood holes the keys of communing with the general assembly of heaven and the Church of the Firstborn and indicates that doing so is a really good thing that the most spiritual and righteous can and should be able to do.
D&C 107
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.
The power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the spiritual key of communing with several groups which are as follows:
  • The General Assembly
  • The Church of the Firstborn
  • God the Father
  • Jesus
If we aren't communing with these groups, then we aren't exercising the spiritual keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. A gift given but refused is as useful as not having the gift. Why have the Melchizedek Priesthood if we can't have the spiritual blessings which include communion.

In the OP story, the thing that we are told is, "James Peterson achieved his life long goal by making his calling and election sure about a month before he died." This being the case, he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn. His daughter and son, who are also members of the church of the Firstborn had every right according to the Melchizedek priesthood keys that they hold, to commune with him as another member of the church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76:67 also tells us that we can commune with the church of Enoch. Paul in the bible backs up the other verses and supports the OP in saying that they had come to "the spirits of just men made perfect" which includes the Father-in-law who made his calling and election sure prior to death. Paul goes further and calls out that they have also come to "an innumerable company of angels".
Heb. 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How can someone come to "an innumerable company of angels" without being able to commune with them. Or what good would it be to come to God if you could not commune with God?

In the OP, did the deceased Father-in-law commune with his children in a way that was uplifting, edifying and enriching? Yes. Did he teach them "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy?" I think so because I learned some new and yet obvious things that add insight to why, "the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage", (D&C 138:50). It answered for me the question about why we wanted bodies so badly when I thought that our spirits could do everything our bodies could do. It is a VERY enlightening revelation about him realizing the vast difference between what he was taught and believed spirit life was like from his church lessons and what it is actually like. It also opens up an un-closeable door by pointing out that we are both bodies and spirits and therefore capable of interacting with both worlds naturally as a core part of our very being. The revelation fits perfectly with the scriptures that repeatedly tell us that some people have eyes to see but cannot see and ears to hear but cannot hear.

It also fits perfectly with the scriptures that tell us that Enoch learned to see the spirits
Moses 6
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
Might make you realize how putting mud in your physical eyes might cause you to not use them for a while so that you learn to use your spiritual eyes? And with his spiritual eyes he was able to see the spirits that God had created which could not be seen with his natural eyes. And this is what made him a seer. He did this under the Lord's direction, so we can be sure that seeing spirits with our spiritual eyes is actually a good thing. Being a seer is actually a good thing. Using your spirit body to experience the spirit world where we came from is actually a good thing, a thing which we have all done for years and years before we gained physical bodies.

Why then, having all these witnesses would you call evil something that is good and of God and expected of the righteous by the power and authority of the Melchizedek priesthood?

To answer my own question, I believe because you do not know the difference between the evil of using familiar spirits as taught in the bible and communing with the general assembly and the church of the Firstborn.

What do you think some of the differences are?

Peace,
Amonhi
It simply boils down to this, is the op, (actually there are multiple posts of the same or similiar as the op) but are they talking to whom you say they are? Did they actually receive their "calling and election made sure". Are they truly speaking/communing with the general assembly and church of the First Born? That is for each one to decide for themselves. I most definitely know that we can and have communed with the other world, with God and angels and family, legitimately. But we also, and very rampantly so,, also commune with spirits that go about to and fro upon the earth specifically to deceive mankind. And if you do not have and completely understand the "spirit of discernment", you will most definitely be deceived.
As Joseph very clearly stated:




"I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may by and bye find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!"


And then of course my all time favorite discourse upon the subject by him:



"One great evil is that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence &c., and imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God:—hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lay down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God,—a manifestation of what?—is there any intelligence communicated? are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? have they seen and conversed with an angel; or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of glory, or hallelujah, or some incoherent expression; but they have had “the power.” The Shaker will whirl around on his heel impelled by a supernatural agency, or spirit, and think that he is governed by the spirit of God: and the Jumper will jump, and enter into all kinds of extravagancies, a Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers, (or Friends) moved as they think by the spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does he recognize? surely such a heterogenious mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbour’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it; could any one tell the length, breadth, or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary system without a knowledge of astronomy? certainly not: and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind who can describe an angel of light, if Satan should appear as one in glory? Who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory? or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French Prophets, with their revelations, and visions, and power, and manifestations? or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites with their apostles, and prophets, and visions, and tongues, and interpretations, &c. &c.; or who can drag into day-light and develope the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-Day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as, “no man knows the things of God but by the spirit of God,” so no man knows the spirit of the devil and his power and influence but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look, and gesture, and the zeal that is frequesntly manifested by him for the glory of God:—together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb which is so characteristic of his proceedings, and his mysterious windings. A man must have the discerning of spirits, before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors: for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power, and baneful effects; long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery, and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage, and desolation are the habilaments in which it has been clothed. The Turks, the Hindoos, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians, in fact all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lays in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the spirit of God, to know the things of God, and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person, or persons, have a communication or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles:—for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, and the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know, nor understand any thing of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter, that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that we sent of God they considered to be false prophets; and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and they had to hide themselves “in deserts, and dens, and caves of the earth;” and although the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds; whilst they cherished, honored, and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, imposters and the basest of men.
A man must have the discerning of spirits as we before stated to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation"?

But to answer the question about the OP, if whether it be from an evil or good source, or of/from God or of the devil.
To each his/her own, but my personal conclusion is it is from the dark side as it does not taste good to me. It feels like it comes from a reprobate spirit.
Because there were so many OPs, I’m curious to know which particular part you believe is from the dark side.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Missionary Letters 5-7 - A Practical Guide to Communing with Others through the veil

Post by darknesstolight »

Me and my group, our experiences are legit.

Anyone else is suspect.

That's all I'm seeing. One special pleading after the other. No good reason, just it isnt you and yours.

...

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