Church Covid Hypocrisy

[Sunain]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

[David13]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

No no no, not at all. It was telling him why he was walking out, and that NO he was not going to the bathroom, but that he disapproved of those lies.
dc

[CosmicMind]

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

I’d like to know, how did you get that I think they should follow me instead?

I said I hope others did, because I know people in there who know that this is wrong. My prayer to God is that they are willing to stand up for what they know to be right as well.

Because you did it publicly; you would be happy if others did just as you did. You came on this board looking for support and consolation b/c you knew people would turn a sympathetic ear, telling you what you did was right.

So either you're not confident in your own decisions; you don't know if what you did was right, you just need other people to follow you and give you accolades that you did the right thing OR you posted about it so other people would get the same idea and so the same thing (i.e. follow you).

Either way, it's a symptom of a massive problem that unless corrected within yourself will lead to tremendous pain and suffering in life.

Pride.

Oh really wow, I've been using the word "pathetic" a lot recently, it fits with your message.

If I was not confident in my own decisions, I would not make them.

Let's get something straight, I do not care about "accolades" or any other form of praise. I came on this form to share a story that highlights an issue that I wanted to talk about: The hypocrisy of their preachings. What in the Hell is this forum for if I can't bring up personal issues in my life to discuss?

As stated before, my not attending anymore is not just because of this issue alone. Do you need me to say that again? My not attending is not just because of this one issue. I am uncomfortable sitting in a church setting looking at all of the mask cultists, being taught blatant lies from the pulpit, and then being told I am in apostasy and "prideful" because I've learned the truth and want to share it with others. I am not paying tithing to the church, and I do not believe any of them to be called of God, from my local leaders to Nelson himself.

Your comments have put you close in my mind to my church leaders.

I've gone through Hell to even be humble enough to say I was wrong about my leaders. In the last year I have denounced just about every idea that I once held as unquestionable truth. I will tell every single person I know that this is wrong, that our church leaders are wrong, and that they should not follow. That is what makes you assume I put myself up as a "light" for others to follow. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies.

If I am to be a good example of that, so be it. This is a really petty way to make a jab at me.

"I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies."

And which Truth is that? Where should they go when they want to worship? When they want to congregate together and sing praises to God with others?

You want them to follow Truth, you say they shouldn't follow you, they shouldn't follow our leaders, they should just "follow Christ". So each should be a god unto themselves? No congregation, no worship together, no spiritual father to help them on the path. They should just "follow Truth". And how are they going to "follow truth"? It's just going to be sporadic? They are just automatically "know" how to "follow truth"?

My goodness do you even hear yourself. You are so utterly confused brother.

You are effectively stating that a new-born child should just "learn how to be an adult"? Right, and how does that happen? By following leaders! So the new-born child of God should just "follow Truth"? And how does that happen? By following spiritual leaders!

But according to you, all our spiritual leaders are fallen . . .except you-b/c you know THE TRUTH!!!

You are down a very, very deadly path for your soul my brother. Please reconsider.

[Gadianton Slayer]

They are not God, they are men who will not change their minds (not by talking to me anyways). I am converted to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not its mortal leaders. If I continue with what I know to be true, I will be kicked out of the church.

You already quit so you won't be kicked out.

Quit what? I quit attending in-person church, yes. I haven't quit the Gospel or anything of actual importance.

Come on, you know better than that to hide behind some self-righteous platitude like the above.
You quit, you wanted others to know you quit and you did it publicly for show.

Umm... so you'd rather I sit in the meeting? Please, let me know how you would have handled the situation.

[CosmicMind]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

[Sunain]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You obviously haven't talked to a Stake President in the COVID era.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I’d like to know, how did you get that I think they should follow me instead?

I said I hope others did, because I know people in there who know that this is wrong. My prayer to God is that they are willing to stand up for what they know to be right as well.

Because you did it publicly; you would be happy if others did just as you did. You came on this board looking for support and consolation b/c you knew people would turn a sympathetic ear, telling you what you did was right.

So either you're not confident in your own decisions; you don't know if what you did was right, you just need other people to follow you and give you accolades that you did the right thing OR you posted about it so other people would get the same idea and so the same thing (i.e. follow you).

Either way, it's a symptom of a massive problem that unless corrected within yourself will lead to tremendous pain and suffering in life.

Pride.

Oh really wow, I've been using the word "pathetic" a lot recently, it fits with your message.

If I was not confident in my own decisions, I would not make them.

Let's get something straight, I do not care about "accolades" or any other form of praise. I came on this form to share a story that highlights an issue that I wanted to talk about: The hypocrisy of their preachings. What in the Hell is this forum for if I can't bring up personal issues in my life to discuss?

As stated before, my not attending anymore is not just because of this issue alone. Do you need me to say that again? My not attending is not just because of this one issue. I am uncomfortable sitting in a church setting looking at all of the mask cultists, being taught blatant lies from the pulpit, and then being told I am in apostasy and "prideful" because I've learned the truth and want to share it with others. I am not paying tithing to the church, and I do not believe any of them to be called of God, from my local leaders to Nelson himself.

Your comments have put you close in my mind to my church leaders.

I've gone through Hell to even be humble enough to say I was wrong about my leaders. In the last year I have denounced just about every idea that I once held as unquestionable truth. I will tell every single person I know that this is wrong, that our church leaders are wrong, and that they should not follow. That is what makes you assume I put myself up as a "light" for others to follow. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies.

If I am to be a good example of that, so be it. This is a really petty way to make a jab at me.

"I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies."

And which Truth is that? Where should they go when they want to worship? When they want to congregate together and sing praises to God with others?

You want them to follow Truth, you say they shouldn't follow you, they shouldn't follow our leaders, they should just "follow Christ". So each should be a god unto themselves? No congregation, no worship together, no spiritual father to help them on the path. They should just "follow Truth". And how are they going to "follow truth"? It's just going to be sporadic? They are just automatically "know" how to "follow truth"?

My goodness do you even hear yourself. You are so utterly confused brother.

You are effectively stating that a new-born child should just "learn how to be an adult"? Right, and how does that happen? By following leaders! So the new-born child of God should just "follow Truth"? And how does that happen? By following spiritual leaders!

But according to you, all our spiritual leaders are fallen . . .except you-b/c you know THE TRUTH!!!

You are down a very, very deadly path for your soul my brother. Please reconsider.

Here is what I know to be truth, do not mix my words or assume:

Wearing masks is evil. The Covid shots are evil. Anyone who would advocate for either is stupid or has evil intent.

Yes, exactly, follow Jesus Christ. To me, following Christ means taking the masks off. Again, why should I not share what I know to be truth?

I am not alone with these opinions mind you.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You're also assuming they have the Spirit with them. They do not always.

[CosmicMind]

You already quit so you won't be kicked out.

Quit what? I quit attending in-person church, yes. I haven't quit the Gospel or anything of actual importance.

Come on, you know better than that to hide behind some self-righteous platitude like the above.
You quit, you wanted others to know you quit and you did it publicly for show.

Umm... so you'd rather I sit in the meeting? Please, let me know how you would have handled the situation.

First, remove the anger from your heart. Any action such as this must be done with a pure heart, no malice. Firmness and conviction.

I've said, walking out is fine (I've done it before). Walking out publicly and shaking you head is okay, as long as your heart is pure. I would have after the meeting requested a meeting (or had a conversation) with the the guy who spoke. And I would have explained with Spiritual Eyes, why this is evil and wicked. Which you can't just do by saying, this is evil and wicked.

You have to be armed with meaning and purpose; you have to explain to the leaders why masks are evil and it's not "because they don't work"; that's not sufficient. You have to have a very well ground spiritual understanding of what masks symbolize, what putting a mask on symbolizes, what wearing a mask in a religious setting symbolizes, what it spiritually means to sing praises to God while wearing a mask!

If you are armed with the Spirit of God, with meaning, with purpose and can articulate (and God will give it to you), they simply cannot say anything to refute it. If you do not believe that, they you don't fully believe in God's ability to give you His Spirit in the moment to help you and them.

I would have conversations about it with my Bishop. I would tell him, I am not wearing a mask in Church. If you tell me I cannot come to Church because I will not wear a mask, then I will not do so. Here is what that spiritually means though.

It spiritually means that you as a spiritual father are telling people to put on a mask when they come to Church, that spiritually, they cannot come to Church singing praises to Christ with their lips. They must hid their faces, they must hide their testimonies from others.

You tell the Bishop that he is telling his flock that he is spiritually telling them they it is perfectly acceptable to be false, to present a false picture of spirituality when coming to Church. You tell the Bishop that at a metaphysical level, requiring people to wear mask means that when they get up to bear a testimony of Christ, that their testimony cannot be counted on to be true. If we are required to wear a physical mask at Church, they you are also requiring us to wear a spiritual mask.

Given in the right manner with the Spirit of God, he won't say a darn thing afterwards to you.

[CosmicMind]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You're also assuming they have the Spirit with them. They do not always.

Negative; I'm assuming that you have the Spirit with you when you talk to them. The Spirit of God calls the wicked and the righteous to repentance. It's not necessary to "have the Spirit" for the Spirit of God to call someone to repentance; or to stop their mouths.

[CosmicMind]

Because you did it publicly; you would be happy if others did just as you did. You came on this board looking for support and consolation b/c you knew people would turn a sympathetic ear, telling you what you did was right.

So either you're not confident in your own decisions; you don't know if what you did was right, you just need other people to follow you and give you accolades that you did the right thing OR you posted about it so other people would get the same idea and so the same thing (i.e. follow you).

Either way, it's a symptom of a massive problem that unless corrected within yourself will lead to tremendous pain and suffering in life.

Pride.

Oh really wow, I've been using the word "pathetic" a lot recently, it fits with your message.

If I was not confident in my own decisions, I would not make them.

Let's get something straight, I do not care about "accolades" or any other form of praise. I came on this form to share a story that highlights an issue that I wanted to talk about: The hypocrisy of their preachings. What in the Hell is this forum for if I can't bring up personal issues in my life to discuss?

As stated before, my not attending anymore is not just because of this issue alone. Do you need me to say that again? My not attending is not just because of this one issue. I am uncomfortable sitting in a church setting looking at all of the mask cultists, being taught blatant lies from the pulpit, and then being told I am in apostasy and "prideful" because I've learned the truth and want to share it with others. I am not paying tithing to the church, and I do not believe any of them to be called of God, from my local leaders to Nelson himself.

Your comments have put you close in my mind to my church leaders.

I've gone through Hell to even be humble enough to say I was wrong about my leaders. In the last year I have denounced just about every idea that I once held as unquestionable truth. I will tell every single person I know that this is wrong, that our church leaders are wrong, and that they should not follow. That is what makes you assume I put myself up as a "light" for others to follow. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies.

If I am to be a good example of that, so be it. This is a really petty way to make a jab at me.

"I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies."

And which Truth is that? Where should they go when they want to worship? When they want to congregate together and sing praises to God with others?

You want them to follow Truth, you say they shouldn't follow you, they shouldn't follow our leaders, they should just "follow Christ". So each should be a god unto themselves? No congregation, no worship together, no spiritual father to help them on the path. They should just "follow Truth". And how are they going to "follow truth"? It's just going to be sporadic? They are just automatically "know" how to "follow truth"?

My goodness do you even hear yourself. You are so utterly confused brother.

You are effectively stating that a new-born child should just "learn how to be an adult"? Right, and how does that happen? By following leaders! So the new-born child of God should just "follow Truth"? And how does that happen? By following spiritual leaders!

But according to you, all our spiritual leaders are fallen . . .except you-b/c you know THE TRUTH!!!

You are down a very, very deadly path for your soul my brother. Please reconsider.

Here is what I know to be truth, do not mix my words or assume:

Wearing masks is evil. The Covid shots are evil. Anyone who would advocate for either is stupid or has evil intent.

Yes, exactly, follow Jesus Christ. To me, following Christ means taking the masks off. Again, why should I not share what I know to be truth?

I am not alone with these opinions mind you.

They are blind. Throw a cloak of compassion over them.

So with the Spirit humbly teach them. Again, you can't just say "wearing masks are evil". You must explain it at the spiritual/meta-physical level. Why is wearing masks evil? And if you focus on the temporal, "they are evil b/c they force us to obey government", you won't get anywhere. You must focus on the spiritual reasons of why they are evil.

[CosmicMind]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You obviously haven't talked to a Stake President in the COVID era.

Incorrect; I have. He even shook my hand afterwards (even if he wouldn't at the beginning)-which I found more than a little comical.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Quit what? I quit attending in-person church, yes. I haven't quit the Gospel or anything of actual importance.

Come on, you know better than that to hide behind some self-righteous platitude like the above.
You quit, you wanted others to know you quit and you did it publicly for show.

Umm... so you'd rather I sit in the meeting? Please, let me know how you would have handled the situation.

First, remove the anger from your heart. Any action such as this must be done with a pure heart, no malice. Firmness and conviction.

I've said, walking out is fine (I've done it before). Walking out publicly and shaking you head is okay, as long as your heart is pure. I would have after the meeting requested a meeting (or had a conversation) with the the guy who spoke. And I would have explained with Spiritual Eyes, why this is evil and wicked. Which you can't just do by saying, this is evil and wicked.

You have to be armed with meaning and purpose; you have to explain to the leaders why masks are evil and it's not "because they don't work"; that's not sufficient. You have to have a very well ground spiritual understanding of what masks symbolize, what putting a mask on symbolizes, what wearing a mask in a religious setting symbolizes, what it spiritually means to sing praises to God while wearing a mask!

If you are armed with the Spirit of God, with meaning, with purpose and can articulate (and God will give it to you), they simply cannot say anything to refute it. If you do not believe that, they you don't fully believe in God's ability to give you His Spirit in the moment to help you and them.

I would have conversations about it with my Bishop. I would tell him, I am not wearing a mask in Church. If you tell me I cannot come to Church because I will not wear a mask, then I will not do so. Here is what that spiritually means though.

It spiritually means that you as a spiritual father are telling people to put on a mask when they come to Church, that spiritually, they cannot come to Church singing praises to Christ with their lips. They must hid their faces, they must hide their testimonies from others.

You tell the Bishop that he is telling his flock that he is spiritually telling them they it is perfectly acceptable to be false, to present a false picture of spirituality when coming to Church. You tell the Bishop that at a metaphysical level, requiring people to wear mask means that when they get up to bear a testimony of Christ, that their testimony cannot be counted on to be true. If we are required to wear a physical mask at Church, they you are also requiring us to wear a spiritual mask.

Given in the right manner with the Spirit of God, he won't say a darn thing afterwards to you.

Yes, I agree. The reason I've fought what you're saying is that those conversations have happened, I understand very well what the masks symbolize and are doing to our society. They do say things to me though, and justify their actions because "they won't be at fault for following a prophet of God."

I have what you could call "repeated offences". My leaders know my views, and until now I've been willing to attend church regardless. You have to take into consideration all of my other experiences and concerns to understand why I am not going for the foreseeable future.

I did not "quit", I am choosing to spend my time doing things that bring me closer to Christ. Part of which includes having discussions with friends of mine about gospel topics.

I get the idea that you're saying I made a show to be seen of people both in that room and on this forum. Please know that that is not the case.

The friend I was sitting next to in the meeting called me afterwards, he had confronted my stake president after the meeting for a few minutes. The pres repeatedly said he will follow the counsel of the brethren before his own opinions. When my friend asked him if he knew it was wrong, he essentially said it doesn't matter, he will obey.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Oh really wow, I've been using the word "pathetic" a lot recently, it fits with your message.

If I was not confident in my own decisions, I would not make them.

Let's get something straight, I do not care about "accolades" or any other form of praise. I came on this form to share a story that highlights an issue that I wanted to talk about: The hypocrisy of their preachings. What in the Hell is this forum for if I can't bring up personal issues in my life to discuss?

As stated before, my not attending anymore is not just because of this issue alone. Do you need me to say that again? My not attending is not just because of this one issue. I am uncomfortable sitting in a church setting looking at all of the mask cultists, being taught blatant lies from the pulpit, and then being told I am in apostasy and "prideful" because I've learned the truth and want to share it with others. I am not paying tithing to the church, and I do not believe any of them to be called of God, from my local leaders to Nelson himself.

Your comments have put you close in my mind to my church leaders.

I've gone through Hell to even be humble enough to say I was wrong about my leaders. In the last year I have denounced just about every idea that I once held as unquestionable truth. I will tell every single person I know that this is wrong, that our church leaders are wrong, and that they should not follow. That is what makes you assume I put myself up as a "light" for others to follow. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies.

If I am to be a good example of that, so be it. This is a really petty way to make a jab at me.

"I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies."

And which Truth is that? Where should they go when they want to worship? When they want to congregate together and sing praises to God with others?

You want them to follow Truth, you say they shouldn't follow you, they shouldn't follow our leaders, they should just "follow Christ". So each should be a god unto themselves? No congregation, no worship together, no spiritual father to help them on the path. They should just "follow Truth". And how are they going to "follow truth"? It's just going to be sporadic? They are just automatically "know" how to "follow truth"?

My goodness do you even hear yourself. You are so utterly confused brother.

You are effectively stating that a new-born child should just "learn how to be an adult"? Right, and how does that happen? By following leaders! So the new-born child of God should just "follow Truth"? And how does that happen? By following spiritual leaders!

But according to you, all our spiritual leaders are fallen . . .except you-b/c you know THE TRUTH!!!

You are down a very, very deadly path for your soul my brother. Please reconsider.

Here is what I know to be truth, do not mix my words or assume:

Wearing masks is evil. The Covid shots are evil. Anyone who would advocate for either is stupid or has evil intent.

Yes, exactly, follow Jesus Christ. To me, following Christ means taking the masks off. Again, why should I not share what I know to be truth?

I am not alone with these opinions mind you.

They are blind. Throw a cloak of compassion over them.

So with the Spirit humbly teach them. Again, you can't just say "wearing masks are evil". You must explain it at the spiritual/meta-physical level. Why is wearing masks evil? And if you focus on the temporal, "they are evil b/c they force us to obey government", you won't get anywhere. You must focus on the spiritual reasons of why they are evil.

Yes, this has been done. Many leaders (and members) do not think for themselves though, they regurgitate words from their leaders and so on.

Do you think that the Q15 always have good intentions?

[Robbinius]

Come on, you know better than that to hide behind some self-righteous platitude like the above.
You quit, you wanted others to know you quit and you did it publicly for show.

Umm... so you'd rather I sit in the meeting? Please, let me know how you would have handled the situation.

First, remove the anger from your heart. Any action such as this must be done with a pure heart, no malice. Firmness and conviction.

I've said, walking out is fine (I've done it before). Walking out publicly and shaking you head is okay, as long as your heart is pure. I would have after the meeting requested a meeting (or had a conversation) with the the guy who spoke. And I would have explained with Spiritual Eyes, why this is evil and wicked. Which you can't just do by saying, this is evil and wicked.

You have to be armed with meaning and purpose; you have to explain to the leaders why masks are evil and it's not "because they don't work"; that's not sufficient. You have to have a very well ground spiritual understanding of what masks symbolize, what putting a mask on symbolizes, what wearing a mask in a religious setting symbolizes, what it spiritually means to sing praises to God while wearing a mask!

If you are armed with the Spirit of God, with meaning, with purpose and can articulate (and God will give it to you), they simply cannot say anything to refute it. If you do not believe that, they you don't fully believe in God's ability to give you His Spirit in the moment to help you and them.

I would have conversations about it with my Bishop. I would tell him, I am not wearing a mask in Church. If you tell me I cannot come to Church because I will not wear a mask, then I will not do so. Here is what that spiritually means though.

It spiritually means that you as a spiritual father are telling people to put on a mask when they come to Church, that spiritually, they cannot come to Church singing praises to Christ with their lips. They must hid their faces, they must hide their testimonies from others.

You tell the Bishop that he is telling his flock that he is spiritually telling them they it is perfectly acceptable to be false, to present a false picture of spirituality when coming to Church. You tell the Bishop that at a metaphysical level, requiring people to wear mask means that when they get up to bear a testimony of Christ, that their testimony cannot be counted on to be true. If we are required to wear a physical mask at Church, they you are also requiring us to wear a spiritual mask.

Given in the right manner with the Spirit of God, he won't say a darn thing afterwards to you.

Yes, I agree. The reason I've fought what you're saying is that those conversations have happened, I understand very well what the masks symbolize and are doing to our society. They do say things to me though, and justify their actions because "they won't be at fault for following a prophet of God."

I have what you could call "repeated offences". My leaders know my views, and until now I've been willing to attend church regardless. You have to take into consideration all of my other experiences and concerns to understand why I am not going for the foreseeable future.

I did not "quit", I am choosing to spend my time doing things that bring me closer to Christ. Part of which includes having discussions with friends of mine about gospel topics.

I get the idea that you're saying I made a show to be seen of people both in that room and on this forum. Please know that that is not the case.

The friend I was sitting next to in the meeting called me afterwards, he had confronted my stake president after the meeting for a few minutes. The pres repeatedly said he will follow the counsel of the brethren before his own opinions. When my friend asked him if he knew it was wrong, he essentially said it doesn't matter, he will obey.

I believe you that you haven’t done any of this to be seen of men and set yourself up as a light.

[Sunain]

Talking to your Stake President will accomplish literally nothing. He's just an over-glorified yes man.

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You obviously haven't talked to a Stake President in the COVID era.

Incorrect; I have. He even shook my hand afterwards (even if he wouldn't at the beginning)-which I found more than a little comical.

Then you are fortune to have a Stake President that at least listens to the spirit and to the saints. Remember that is not the case everywhere.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Umm... so you'd rather I sit in the meeting? Please, let me know how you would have handled the situation.

First, remove the anger from your heart. Any action such as this must be done with a pure heart, no malice. Firmness and conviction.

I've said, walking out is fine (I've done it before). Walking out publicly and shaking you head is okay, as long as your heart is pure. I would have after the meeting requested a meeting (or had a conversation) with the the guy who spoke. And I would have explained with Spiritual Eyes, why this is evil and wicked. Which you can't just do by saying, this is evil and wicked.

You have to be armed with meaning and purpose; you have to explain to the leaders why masks are evil and it's not "because they don't work"; that's not sufficient. You have to have a very well ground spiritual understanding of what masks symbolize, what putting a mask on symbolizes, what wearing a mask in a religious setting symbolizes, what it spiritually means to sing praises to God while wearing a mask!

If you are armed with the Spirit of God, with meaning, with purpose and can articulate (and God will give it to you), they simply cannot say anything to refute it. If you do not believe that, they you don't fully believe in God's ability to give you His Spirit in the moment to help you and them.

I would have conversations about it with my Bishop. I would tell him, I am not wearing a mask in Church. If you tell me I cannot come to Church because I will not wear a mask, then I will not do so. Here is what that spiritually means though.

It spiritually means that you as a spiritual father are telling people to put on a mask when they come to Church, that spiritually, they cannot come to Church singing praises to Christ with their lips. They must hid their faces, they must hide their testimonies from others.

You tell the Bishop that he is telling his flock that he is spiritually telling them they it is perfectly acceptable to be false, to present a false picture of spirituality when coming to Church. You tell the Bishop that at a metaphysical level, requiring people to wear mask means that when they get up to bear a testimony of Christ, that their testimony cannot be counted on to be true. If we are required to wear a physical mask at Church, they you are also requiring us to wear a spiritual mask.

Given in the right manner with the Spirit of God, he won't say a darn thing afterwards to you.

Yes, I agree. The reason I've fought what you're saying is that those conversations have happened, I understand very well what the masks symbolize and are doing to our society. They do say things to me though, and justify their actions because "they won't be at fault for following a prophet of God."

I have what you could call "repeated offences". My leaders know my views, and until now I've been willing to attend church regardless. You have to take into consideration all of my other experiences and concerns to understand why I am not going for the foreseeable future.

I did not "quit", I am choosing to spend my time doing things that bring me closer to Christ. Part of which includes having discussions with friends of mine about gospel topics.

I get the idea that you're saying I made a show to be seen of people both in that room and on this forum. Please know that that is not the case.

The friend I was sitting next to in the meeting called me afterwards, he had confronted my stake president after the meeting for a few minutes. The pres repeatedly said he will follow the counsel of the brethren before his own opinions. When my friend asked him if he knew it was wrong, he essentially said it doesn't matter, he will obey.

I believe you that you haven’t done any of this to be seen of men and set yourself up as a light.

This may be the unkind way to say it, but I don't care enough about people's opinions to want that praise. *edit: I care about people and their opinions, but do not let them affect me.* I had a friend a few months ago comment on a FB post of mine, she said "I live my life knowing that one day I will be accountable to God, not to anyone else." That is what I seek to do.

[CosmicMind]

Not true. Only one who has no trust in any spiritual leader would say such a thing; only one who is a god unto themselves would believe that.

The Stake President is a man, yes; but the Spirit is quicker than a two-edged sword. Come armed with the Spirit of God and God will quickly call the "yes man" to repentance.

You obviously haven't talked to a Stake President in the COVID era.

Incorrect; I have. He even shook my hand afterwards (even if he wouldn't at the beginning)-which I found more than a little comical.

Then you are fortune to have a Stake President that at least listens to the spirit and to the saints. Remember that is not the case everywhere.

No, that's not the case at all. I have faith that God will protect me. What can the SP really do? Take away my recommend? okay. Shame me? okay. Call me to repentance? okay.

He can do all those things but it will not have one iota of an affect on me unless God confirms through His Spirit that he is correct. Otherwise, I'm sitting in their speaking with him having a great gospel conversation.

[Gadianton Slayer]

You obviously haven't talked to a Stake President in the COVID era.

Incorrect; I have. He even shook my hand afterwards (even if he wouldn't at the beginning)-which I found more than a little comical.

Then you are fortune to have a Stake President that at least listens to the spirit and to the saints. Remember that is not the case everywhere.

No, that's not the case at all. I have faith that God will protect me. What can the SP really do? Take away my recommend? okay. Shame me? okay. Call me to repentance? okay.

He can do all those things but it will not have one iota of an affect on me unless God confirms through His Spirit that he is correct. Otherwise, I'm sitting in their speaking with him having a great gospel conversation.

Yep.

[CosmicMind]

First, remove the anger from your heart. Any action such as this must be done with a pure heart, no malice. Firmness and conviction.

I've said, walking out is fine (I've done it before). Walking out publicly and shaking you head is okay, as long as your heart is pure. I would have after the meeting requested a meeting (or had a conversation) with the the guy who spoke. And I would have explained with Spiritual Eyes, why this is evil and wicked. Which you can't just do by saying, this is evil and wicked.

You have to be armed with meaning and purpose; you have to explain to the leaders why masks are evil and it's not "because they don't work"; that's not sufficient. You have to have a very well ground spiritual understanding of what masks symbolize, what putting a mask on symbolizes, what wearing a mask in a religious setting symbolizes, what it spiritually means to sing praises to God while wearing a mask!

If you are armed with the Spirit of God, with meaning, with purpose and can articulate (and God will give it to you), they simply cannot say anything to refute it. If you do not believe that, they you don't fully believe in God's ability to give you His Spirit in the moment to help you and them.

I would have conversations about it with my Bishop. I would tell him, I am not wearing a mask in Church. If you tell me I cannot come to Church because I will not wear a mask, then I will not do so. Here is what that spiritually means though.

It spiritually means that you as a spiritual father are telling people to put on a mask when they come to Church, that spiritually, they cannot come to Church singing praises to Christ with their lips. They must hid their faces, they must hide their testimonies from others.

You tell the Bishop that he is telling his flock that he is spiritually telling them they it is perfectly acceptable to be false, to present a false picture of spirituality when coming to Church. You tell the Bishop that at a metaphysical level, requiring people to wear mask means that when they get up to bear a testimony of Christ, that their testimony cannot be counted on to be true. If we are required to wear a physical mask at Church, they you are also requiring us to wear a spiritual mask.

Given in the right manner with the Spirit of God, he won't say a darn thing afterwards to you.

Yes, I agree. The reason I've fought what you're saying is that those conversations have happened, I understand very well what the masks symbolize and are doing to our society. They do say things to me though, and justify their actions because "they won't be at fault for following a prophet of God."

I have what you could call "repeated offences". My leaders know my views, and until now I've been willing to attend church regardless. You have to take into consideration all of my other experiences and concerns to understand why I am not going for the foreseeable future.

I did not "quit", I am choosing to spend my time doing things that bring me closer to Christ. Part of which includes having discussions with friends of mine about gospel topics.

I get the idea that you're saying I made a show to be seen of people both in that room and on this forum. Please know that that is not the case.

The friend I was sitting next to in the meeting called me afterwards, he had confronted my stake president after the meeting for a few minutes. The pres repeatedly said he will follow the counsel of the brethren before his own opinions. When my friend asked him if he knew it was wrong, he essentially said it doesn't matter, he will obey.

I believe you that you haven’t done any of this to be seen of men and set yourself up as a light.

This may be the unkind way to say it, but I don't care enough about people's opinions to want that praise. *edit: I care about people and their opinions, but do not let them affect me.* I had a friend a few months ago comment on a FB post of mine, she said "I live my life knowing that one day I will be accountable to God, not to anyone else." That is what I seek to do.

Being accountable to God means helping others; you intrinsically know this because you did what you did publicly. If it wasn't for the praise, then it was to help them.

Well then help the leaders; you'll have more affect on more people by helping the leaders than by what you did. You help the leaders by petitioning them by having conversations with them, by bringing the Spirit with you and helping them understand the spiritual meanings behind what they are doing.

[CosmicMind]

Incorrect; I have. He even shook my hand afterwards (even if he wouldn't at the beginning)-which I found more than a little comical.

Then you are fortune to have a Stake President that at least listens to the spirit and to the saints. Remember that is not the case everywhere.

No, that's not the case at all. I have faith that God will protect me. What can the SP really do? Take away my recommend? okay. Shame me? okay. Call me to repentance? okay.

He can do all those things but it will not have one iota of an affect on me unless God confirms through His Spirit that he is correct. Otherwise, I'm sitting in their speaking with him having a great gospel conversation.

Yep.

We are more alike than you might think . . .I'm just a tad bit older with probably more experience under my belt-some good some not so good.

[latterdayloco]

Do you guys not know anyone who has died from Covid-19? I don’t get how you can still think it’s fake. The sheer amount of people needed to be in on this supposed lie for it to work discredits the idea that it’s fake. Sure I believe it is being blown out of proportion as a means of control, but it is still killing people. We’ve had a few die in our family.

Why is wearing a mask Satanic? How does wearing a mask to combat a respiratory illness not make sense? The members of the church in Asia have done this for years because of all of the respiratory epidemics.

You guys are just as bad as the news at blowing things out of proportion.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Yes, I agree. The reason I've fought what you're saying is that those conversations have happened, I understand very well what the masks symbolize and are doing to our society. They do say things to me though, and justify their actions because "they won't be at fault for following a prophet of God."

I have what you could call "repeated offences". My leaders know my views, and until now I've been willing to attend church regardless. You have to take into consideration all of my other experiences and concerns to understand why I am not going for the foreseeable future.

I did not "quit", I am choosing to spend my time doing things that bring me closer to Christ. Part of which includes having discussions with friends of mine about gospel topics.

I get the idea that you're saying I made a show to be seen of people both in that room and on this forum. Please know that that is not the case.

The friend I was sitting next to in the meeting called me afterwards, he had confronted my stake president after the meeting for a few minutes. The pres repeatedly said he will follow the counsel of the brethren before his own opinions. When my friend asked him if he knew it was wrong, he essentially said it doesn't matter, he will obey.

I believe you that you haven’t done any of this to be seen of men and set yourself up as a light.

This may be the unkind way to say it, but I don't care enough about people's opinions to want that praise. *edit: I care about people and their opinions, but do not let them affect me.* I had a friend a few months ago comment on a FB post of mine, she said "I live my life knowing that one day I will be accountable to God, not to anyone else." That is what I seek to do.

Being accountable to God means helping others; you intrinsically know this because you did what you did publicly. If it wasn't for the praise, then it was to help them.

Well then help the leaders; you'll have more affect on more people by helping the leaders than by what you did. You help the leaders by petitioning them by having conversations with them, by bringing the Spirit with you and helping them understand the spiritual meanings behind what they are doing.

Yeah. This was my thought process going into it, but for the leaders I’ve had recently it just hasn’t gone well. I will continue to try when the opportunity presents itself, I simply don’t feel attending church brings benefit to me when I can still perform the sacrament in my home. I’m not going to go out of my way to have those meetings anymore (at least right now), because they’ve brushed off everything I show them.

To my dad, my former stake president literally said he doesn’t have time to read anything he sends him. So how are we supposed to have a conversation if he won’t do his own work...

[CosmicMind]

Do you guys not know anyone who has died from Covid-19? I don’t get how you can still think it’s fake. The sheer amount of people needed to be in on this supposed lie for it to work discredits the idea that it’s fake. Sure I believe it is being blown out of proportion as a means of control, but it is still killing people. We’ve had a few die in our family.

Why is wearing a mask Satanic? How does wearing a mask to combat a respiratory illness not make sense? The members of the church in Asia have done this for years because of all of the respiratory epidemics.

You guys are just as bad as the news at blowing things out of proportion.

I would like to have a conversation about this.

You do realize that the worst case "case fatality rate" for this thing is 2%. And of that 2%, the majority of the deaths come from obesity and very old.

At what rate of a CFR do you think wearing a mask would be ridiculous? If the CFR rate was 1%, would it be ridiculous?, what if the CFR was .01% (or 1 out of 10000).

You do also realize that asymptomatic transmission does not happen? Correct?

I'm curious how it feels going around treating every person you meet as a possible danger, as if they might have a bomb strapped to their chest known as COVID-19, even though there is no possible physical manifestation of danger?

I'm curious how it feels going around letting everyone else treat you as if you are a mortal danger to their very existence even though there is no physical evidence of danger?

I'm curious how treating everyone around you (and letting yourself being treated) as an enemy is Christlike?

[neverendingthoughts]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

Way to be brave. I believe you did the right thing.