Church Covid Hypocrisy

[Lizzy60]

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

What you are describing is a cult, or the military or something where free will is hindered. Without looking directly at the speaker, and shaking his head, many would have just thought he needed the restroom. That would have been the coward’s way. We will need righteous revolutionaries. Alma was one, after he heard the word of the Lord through Abinidi.

[CosmicMind]

I agree with you, you were right to show him he was wrong. I had the same experience a few weeks ago, but that doesn't stop me from going with my big smiling face anyway. We are better than them, make them tell you personally to stop coming so they have to take full responsibility of their condemnation for disobeying the Savior.

"And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;
But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name."
3 Nephi 18:22-23

Keep going maskless and hold your head high. Don't be angry, be confident of your choice to do the right thing. You can set an example for others. We can't let these wicked men get away with this without a fight.

I agree! Personally, it's something I've been contemplating for a while because I am not comfortable sitting in the back of a meeting looking at masked obedient faces. I hear a lot of lies from the pulpit and can spend my time doing better things.

Why not schedule a meeting with the authorities? Walk out, and then after the meeting tell the leaders, I would like to speak and talk with you about this. Sit down and have a conversation about it.

It takes much more courage to have a conversation with your ecclesiastical leader telling them all the reasons why they are wrong, listening to their response and responding to their response vs. the revolutionary path of just walking out, showing everyone why you walked out and then quitting.

It takes more courage, because you have to actually stand your ground one on one; and I'm positive you can do it. I'm positive if you have the Scriptures and the Spirit as your guide, your ecclesiastical leader will actually want to talk to you because they will feel there is something they are missing.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Understood, and as I've said in later responses there is more to me not attending than this single instance. First, I am open to discipline when I know that I am right. I was sent home from my mission and talked to by my bishop and stk pres for refusing to wear a mask. Second, there are people in that crowd who I know have similar questions as me and know that this is wrong. If I did not stand up they may have finished listening and went home thinking everyone agreed with him, which will put them in such a scary and lonely position. I know because I was like that, especially on my mission.

I am willing to be excommunicated for following the promptings of the Spirit.

If leaders teach false and damning doctrine such as infallibility I feel it is our responsibility to oppose it. If not me today, then who and when?

[Gadianton Slayer]

I agree with you, you were right to show him he was wrong. I had the same experience a few weeks ago, but that doesn't stop me from going with my big smiling face anyway. We are better than them, make them tell you personally to stop coming so they have to take full responsibility of their condemnation for disobeying the Savior.

"And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;
But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name."
3 Nephi 18:22-23

Keep going maskless and hold your head high. Don't be angry, be confident of your choice to do the right thing. You can set an example for others. We can't let these wicked men get away with this without a fight.

I agree! Personally, it's something I've been contemplating for a while because I am not comfortable sitting in the back of a meeting looking at masked obedient faces. I hear a lot of lies from the pulpit and can spend my time doing better things.

Why not schedule a meeting with the authorities? Walk out, and then after the meeting tell the leaders, I would like to speak and talk with you about this. Sit down and have a conversation about it.

It takes much more courage to have a conversation with your ecclesiastical leader telling them all the reasons why they are wrong, listening to their response and responding to their response vs. the revolutionary path of just walking out, showing everyone why you walked out and then quitting.

It takes more courage, because you have to actually stand your ground one on one; and I'm positive you can do it. I'm positive if you have the Scriptures and the Spirit as your guide, your ecclesiastical leader will actually want to talk to you because they will feel there is something they are missing.

Hehe... I've had those conversations. Many times. My dad was released from the high council for it, and I was released from my mission. The only thing that comes from that is shaming and a call to repentance, this has been true for me and a few others I know. My bishop did not want to hear why I think what I do.

[CosmicMind]

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

What you are describing is a cult, or the military or something where free will is hindered. Without looking directly at the speaker, and shaking his head, many would have just thought he needed the restroom. That would have been the coward’s way.

No, no. Please hear what I am saying. It is the combination of actions.

Walking out is fine, walking out and shaking your head is probably even fine. Walking out, shaking your head and then effectively rage-quitting is setting yourself up to be a light to the world. That is the path of the revolutionary.

If you really want to change things, then you must submit to the discipline the current leadership might give; that doesn't mean agree with them, it doesn't mean follow like lemmings. It just means being humble enough to submit to their correction even when they are wrong.

THAT is how you change an organization. Why? Because it plants the seed; people recognize injustices but people also want to submit to hierarchies. Future people will recognize that the discipline handed out for correcting the current leadership was injust. And the organization will improve.

Now, that is the question-whether people want the organization to improve or not?

I want it to improve; even though I'm currently without a recommend because I would not fully sustain in my interview with the Stake President. I accept that restriction on my membership; I don't go about complaining about it.

[CosmicMind]

I agree with you, you were right to show him he was wrong. I had the same experience a few weeks ago, but that doesn't stop me from going with my big smiling face anyway. We are better than them, make them tell you personally to stop coming so they have to take full responsibility of their condemnation for disobeying the Savior.

"And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;
But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name."
3 Nephi 18:22-23

Keep going maskless and hold your head high. Don't be angry, be confident of your choice to do the right thing. You can set an example for others. We can't let these wicked men get away with this without a fight.

I agree! Personally, it's something I've been contemplating for a while because I am not comfortable sitting in the back of a meeting looking at masked obedient faces. I hear a lot of lies from the pulpit and can spend my time doing better things.

Why not schedule a meeting with the authorities? Walk out, and then after the meeting tell the leaders, I would like to speak and talk with you about this. Sit down and have a conversation about it.

It takes much more courage to have a conversation with your ecclesiastical leader telling them all the reasons why they are wrong, listening to their response and responding to their response vs. the revolutionary path of just walking out, showing everyone why you walked out and then quitting.

It takes more courage, because you have to actually stand your ground one on one; and I'm positive you can do it. I'm positive if you have the Scriptures and the Spirit as your guide, your ecclesiastical leader will actually want to talk to you because they will feel there is something they are missing.

Hehe... I've had those conversations. Many times. My dad was released from the high council for it, and I was released from my mission. The only thing that comes from that is shaming and a call to repentance, this has been true for me and a few others I know. My bishop did not want to hear why I think what I do.

Okay, keep having those conversations. So what if they are shaming you and calling you to repentance-if you are good with God then their words are meaningless and have no power. If you are not, then maybe some aspect unrelated to this needs correction in your own life.

Keep petitioning, keep requesting. Do you stop praying to God simply because he doesn't answer your prayer the first time the way you want Him to?

[Gadianton Slayer]

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

What you are describing is a cult, or the military or something where free will is hindered. Without looking directly at the speaker, and shaking his head, many would have just thought he needed the restroom. That would have been the coward’s way.

No, no. Please hear what I am saying. It is the combination of actions.

Walking out is fine, walking out and shaking your head is probably even fine. Walking out, shaking your head and then effectively rage-quitting is setting yourself up to be a light to the world. That is the path of the revolutionary.

If you really want to change things, then you must submit to the discipline the current leadership might give; that doesn't mean agree with them, it doesn't mean follow like lemmings. It just means being humble enough to submit to their correction even when they are wrong.

THAT is how you change an organization. Why? Because it plants the seed; people recognize injustices but people also want to submit to hierarchies. Future people will recognize that the discipline handed out for correcting the current leadership was injust. And the organization will improve.

Now, that is the question-whether people want the organization to improve or not?

I want it to improve; even though I'm currently without a recommend because I would not fully sustain in my interview with the Stake President. I accept that restriction on my membership; I don't go about complaining about it.

I don't want to change the organization.

3 Nephi 16:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

There will be alternative options to the LDS church.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I agree! Personally, it's something I've been contemplating for a while because I am not comfortable sitting in the back of a meeting looking at masked obedient faces. I hear a lot of lies from the pulpit and can spend my time doing better things.

Why not schedule a meeting with the authorities? Walk out, and then after the meeting tell the leaders, I would like to speak and talk with you about this. Sit down and have a conversation about it.

It takes much more courage to have a conversation with your ecclesiastical leader telling them all the reasons why they are wrong, listening to their response and responding to their response vs. the revolutionary path of just walking out, showing everyone why you walked out and then quitting.

It takes more courage, because you have to actually stand your ground one on one; and I'm positive you can do it. I'm positive if you have the Scriptures and the Spirit as your guide, your ecclesiastical leader will actually want to talk to you because they will feel there is something they are missing.

Hehe... I've had those conversations. Many times. My dad was released from the high council for it, and I was released from my mission. The only thing that comes from that is shaming and a call to repentance, this has been true for me and a few others I know. My bishop did not want to hear why I think what I do.

Okay, keep having those conversations. So what if they are shaming you and calling you to repentance-if you are good with God then their words are meaningless and have no power. If you are not, then maybe some aspect unrelated to this needs correction in your own life.

Keep petitioning, keep requesting. Do you stop praying to God simply because he doesn't answer your prayer the first time the way you want Him to?

They are not God, they are men who will not change their minds (not by talking to me anyways). I am converted to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not its mortal leaders. If I continue with what I know to be true, I will be kicked out of the church.

[4Joshua8]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

It isn’t a game at all.

[Fred]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

[CosmicMind]

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Understood, and as I've said in later responses there is more to me not attending than this single instance. First, I am open to discipline when I know that I am right. I was sent home from my mission and talked to by my bishop and stk pres for refusing to wear a mask. Second, there are people in that crowd who I know have similar questions as me and know that this is wrong. If I did not stand up they may have finished listening and went home thinking everyone agreed with him, which will put them in such a scary and lonely position. I know because I was like that, especially on my mission.

I am willing to be excommunicated for following the promptings of the Spirit.

If leaders teach false and damning doctrine such as infallibility I feel it is our responsibility to oppose it. If not me today, then who and when?

I completely agree with your last sentences. I don't have a Temple Recommend, yet I'm more "righteous" now than at any other point in my life. Rage-quitting is not the solution. If they excommunicate you (or me) so be it-still keep going.

I've had many conversations with my leaders; many times the tone in how we approach things matters significantly. Humble, willing to receive whatever discipline the leaders sees fit to provide; yet also firm and unwavering in commitment to truth and right. Not anger, just firmness and resolve.

[CosmicMind]

Why not schedule a meeting with the authorities? Walk out, and then after the meeting tell the leaders, I would like to speak and talk with you about this. Sit down and have a conversation about it.

It takes much more courage to have a conversation with your ecclesiastical leader telling them all the reasons why they are wrong, listening to their response and responding to their response vs. the revolutionary path of just walking out, showing everyone why you walked out and then quitting.

It takes more courage, because you have to actually stand your ground one on one; and I'm positive you can do it. I'm positive if you have the Scriptures and the Spirit as your guide, your ecclesiastical leader will actually want to talk to you because they will feel there is something they are missing.

Hehe... I've had those conversations. Many times. My dad was released from the high council for it, and I was released from my mission. The only thing that comes from that is shaming and a call to repentance, this has been true for me and a few others I know. My bishop did not want to hear why I think what I do.

Okay, keep having those conversations. So what if they are shaming you and calling you to repentance-if you are good with God then their words are meaningless and have no power. If you are not, then maybe some aspect unrelated to this needs correction in your own life.

Keep petitioning, keep requesting. Do you stop praying to God simply because he doesn't answer your prayer the first time the way you want Him to?

They are not God, they are men who will not change their minds (not by talking to me anyways). I am converted to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not its mortal leaders. If I continue with what I know to be true, I will be kicked out of the church.

You already quit so you won't be kicked out.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Understood, and as I've said in later responses there is more to me not attending than this single instance. First, I am open to discipline when I know that I am right. I was sent home from my mission and talked to by my bishop and stk pres for refusing to wear a mask. Second, there are people in that crowd who I know have similar questions as me and know that this is wrong. If I did not stand up they may have finished listening and went home thinking everyone agreed with him, which will put them in such a scary and lonely position. I know because I was like that, especially on my mission.

I am willing to be excommunicated for following the promptings of the Spirit.

If leaders teach false and damning doctrine such as infallibility I feel it is our responsibility to oppose it. If not me today, then who and when?

I completely agree with your last sentences. I don't have a Temple Recommend, yet I'm more "righteous" now than at any other point in my life. Rage-quitting is not the solution. If they excommunicate you (or me) so be it-still keep going.

I've had many conversations with my leaders; many times the tone in how we approach things matters significantly. Humble, willing to receive whatever discipline the leaders sees fit to provide; yet also firm and unwavering in commitment to truth and right. Not anger, just firmness and resolve.

I agree!! I'm not a visually contentious person (most of the time), there has been anger in those conversations and it didn't come from me. No matter what I say, they will not agree that I'm doing the right thing if it's contrary to the q15's teachings. I'm willing to leave, they are not.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Hehe... I've had those conversations. Many times. My dad was released from the high council for it, and I was released from my mission. The only thing that comes from that is shaming and a call to repentance, this has been true for me and a few others I know. My bishop did not want to hear why I think what I do.

Okay, keep having those conversations. So what if they are shaming you and calling you to repentance-if you are good with God then their words are meaningless and have no power. If you are not, then maybe some aspect unrelated to this needs correction in your own life.

Keep petitioning, keep requesting. Do you stop praying to God simply because he doesn't answer your prayer the first time the way you want Him to?

They are not God, they are men who will not change their minds (not by talking to me anyways). I am converted to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not its mortal leaders. If I continue with what I know to be true, I will be kicked out of the church.

You already quit so you won't be kicked out.

Quit what? I quit attending in-person church, yes. I haven't quit the Gospel or anything of actual importance.

[CosmicMind]

I applaud your courage; not necessarily the manner in which you did it. There is a very real danger in how you did what you did and will possibly lead down a road of a lot of pain and suffering.

I am right there with you in that there are a plethora of things which are being done in the Church which is not right, evil, wicked, etc. The challenge is knowing how to resist them in the correct manner. The challenge for people like you (and me) is that we see what is going wrong and we want to take a stand, we want to fight for what is right and we have the courage and conviction to do so. Yet if we are not careful then we become revolutionaries, seeking to destroy the order in the world-this leads to a very bad place.

There is a manner in which one can resist these insanities while still maintaining the proper Christian attitude desiring to help those who lead have a change of heart rather than a complete revolution of order.

I would highly encourage you to ponder on the following video so that this does not take you down a dark road.

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

[Gadianton Slayer]

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

I’d like to know, how did you get that I think they should follow me instead?

I said I hope others did, because I know people in there who know that this is wrong. My prayer to God is that they are willing to stand up for what they know to be right as well.

[Robbinius]

There is nothing wrong at all with Walking out of a meeting.

I mean, it’s not like he was whipping people or flipping over tables!!

Wait

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

You are reading in way more than he said here. He never set himself up as a light. He never said he’s the leader now. He followed the Holy Ghost and I would imagine would invite others to do the same. Please stop accusing this young man of things of which he is not guilty.

[CosmicMind]

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

You are reading in way more than he said here. He never set himself up as a light. He never said he’s the leader now. He followed the Holy Ghost and I would imagine would invite others to do the same. Please stop accusing this young man of things of which he is not guilty.

LOL.

Of course he set himself up as a light! lol, my goodness. If he didn't set himself up as a light, he would have never posted here looking for affirmation. He wouldn't have posted that he is "quitting". That is the definition of setting himself up as a light.

Okay, sure he never said directly "FOLLOW ME!!!"; but anyone who has to say "FOLLOW ME!!" is not a leader.

[CosmicMind]

There are plenty of things wrong with the Church; Covid, homosexuality, trannies, missionaries. My goodness the Church has some serious problems. Everyone wants to be a revolutionary and just make it all stop; make all the insanity stop on a dime.

And it doesn't work like that; the Church got into this mess over decades, because the conservative members forgot what it means to petition their leaders, they forgot what it means to make requests. They forgot that they have a voice. And then they are waking up all the sudden to their "awful situation" and then just rage-quitting. Yeah, maybe the Church excommunicates me; yeah maybe I get shamed and called to repentance-so what.

I do care about the Gospel, I do care about the Church; and I do want it to be better. Rage-quitting and standing up for show, so all can see me rage-quit ain't gonna do a damn bit of good. All it will show to others is that I'm some petulant child. Sure a few might follow me in my petulance and great that might make me feel good for some period of time. But there are good people, who need Christ in their lives and I can do a lot of good by simply humbly but firmly preaching the Gospel inside the Church and trying to gain back that which we've lost.

[CosmicMind]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

I salute you my friend.

Here’s a test to know if what you did was correct: What was the war in heaven fought over? What did the Lord value in that fight? Is there any resemblance in our political sides today? Which side is the Church on? Why would the Lord change His mind now on what He values?

Feelings don't lie.

Totally false; feelings often times do lie.

[Robbinius]

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

You are reading in way more than he said here. He never set himself up as a light. He never said he’s the leader now. He followed the Holy Ghost and I would imagine would invite others to do the same. Please stop accusing this young man of things of which he is not guilty.

LOL.

Of course he set himself up as a light! lol, my goodness. If he didn't set himself up as a light, he would have never posted here looking for affirmation. He wouldn't have posted that he is "quitting". That is the definition of setting himself up as a light.

Okay, sure he never said directly "FOLLOW ME!!!"; but anyone who has to say "FOLLOW ME!!" is not a leader.

LOL

[Gadianton Slayer]

Actually, he handled it quite well. He could have told the truth and called the Bishop a lying disciple of satan intending to pervert God's church. But even though true, that would have been disruptive. On the other hand, the Bishop will just tell people that this is only further proof that he is a rebel and was sent home for good cause.

An open letter to the editor of the local newspaper that will be read by all could contain facts proving the Bishop to be a liar and blindly following other liars. Of course, by telling the truth and proving their evil practices will likely lead to excommunication. The Brethren have pride ten feet thick and if proven deceptive, they will retaliate.

Much simpler to simply state your opinion to people when the opportunity presents itself. Spreading the Gospel in this manner is truthful and effective. As more and more people discover that the fruit is rotten, the choice will arise as to whether to follow the corporation or Christ. That will be an easy decision for true disciples of Christ.

Again, you are missing the point. I'm not opposed to walking out, I'm not opposed to walking out and shaking head to lead others know why (caution should be exercised). I'm opposed to doing the above AND quitting: that is telling others that they should be following you instead of the sustained leaders. That is a very dangerous road to travel.

Not sustaining leaders, fine. I have no problem with that; I have a problem with not sustaining AND setting oneself up as a light. I mean really what do you know about leading any religious group of people? It's the height of egotistical, narcissitic, hubris.

I’d like to know, how did you get that I think they should follow me instead?

I said I hope others did, because I know people in there who know that this is wrong. My prayer to God is that they are willing to stand up for what they know to be right as well.

Because you did it publicly; you would be happy if others did just as you did. You came on this board looking for support and consolation b/c you knew people would turn a sympathetic ear, telling you what you did was right.

So either you're not confident in your own decisions; you don't know if what you did was right, you just need other people to follow you and give you accolades that you did the right thing OR you posted about it so other people would get the same idea and so the same thing (i.e. follow you).

Either way, it's a symptom of a massive problem that unless corrected within yourself will lead to tremendous pain and suffering in life.

Pride.

Oh really wow, I've been using the word "pathetic" a lot recently, it fits with your message.

If I was not confident in my own decisions, I would not make them.

Let's get something straight, I do not care about "accolades" or any other form of praise. I came on this form to share a story that highlights an issue that I wanted to talk about: The hypocrisy of their preachings. What in the Hell is this forum for if I can't bring up personal issues in my life to discuss?

As stated before, my not attending anymore is not just because of this issue alone. Do you need me to say that again? My not attending is not just because of this one issue. I am uncomfortable sitting in a church setting looking at all of the mask cultists, being taught blatant lies from the pulpit, and then being told I am in apostasy and "prideful" because I've learned the truth and want to share it with others. I am not paying tithing to the church, and I do not believe any of them to be called of God, from my local leaders to Nelson himself.

Your comments have put you close in my mind to my church leaders.

I've gone through Hell to even be humble enough to say I was wrong about my leaders. In the last year I have denounced just about every idea that I once held as unquestionable truth. I will tell every single person I know that this is wrong, that our church leaders are wrong, and that they should not follow. That is what makes you assume I put myself up as a "light" for others to follow. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH, and not live a life of lies.

If I am to be a good example of that, so be it. This is a really petty way to make a jab at me.

[CosmicMind]

Walking out of a meeting is one thing; which is perfectly fine-I've walked out of meetings before when really bad falsities are being taught and I just can't take it anymore.

It was the following which caused me pause: "I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building."

For what purpose was this done: specifically looking him in the eye, shaking the head and leaving.
OP states why: "I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one."

It becomes very dangerous (not unallowable) just very dangerous to the soul to do as such. When one is engaged in public open opposition such as this, it becomes dangerous. Again not unallowable, one just much exercise tremendous caution. One's heart must be pure and one must be willing to submit to the higher authorities discipline (if there is one) for doing so.

To publicly shake your head, walk out and then state you will never set foot again in the Church is not the Christian path but the revolutionary path. Very bad for one's soul.

It is in effect telling others, that they should be following you as a leader vs. the current leaders (you are telling others this b/c you quit). It is a very, very dangerous game to play.

Understood, and as I've said in later responses there is more to me not attending than this single instance. First, I am open to discipline when I know that I am right. I was sent home from my mission and talked to by my bishop and stk pres for refusing to wear a mask. Second, there are people in that crowd who I know have similar questions as me and know that this is wrong. If I did not stand up they may have finished listening and went home thinking everyone agreed with him, which will put them in such a scary and lonely position. I know because I was like that, especially on my mission.

I am willing to be excommunicated for following the promptings of the Spirit.

If leaders teach false and damning doctrine such as infallibility I feel it is our responsibility to oppose it. If not me today, then who and when?

I completely agree with your last sentences. I don't have a Temple Recommend, yet I'm more "righteous" now than at any other point in my life. Rage-quitting is not the solution. If they excommunicate you (or me) so be it-still keep going.

I've had many conversations with my leaders; many times the tone in how we approach things matters significantly. Humble, willing to receive whatever discipline the leaders sees fit to provide; yet also firm and unwavering in commitment to truth and right. Not anger, just firmness and resolve.

I agree!! I'm not a visually contentious person (most of the time), there has been anger in those conversations and it didn't come from me. No matter what I say, they will not agree that I'm doing the right thing if it's contrary to the q15's teachings. I'm willing to leave, they are not.

In effect, if you are a part of a religious organization then you commit to at least publicly not contradicting those who lead. You can contradict as long as it is not effectively setting yourself up to battle them. Every religion has some bounds of acceptable public teachings, it's called heresy for a reason!

I would respond that unless it is the united voice of the Q15, then I'm free to disagree publicly. I would further state, very few things have the united voice; proclamations and declarations and that's about it these days. They could come back and say "well the Church handbook is the united voice". I'd respond that I do not know that is the case; their votes about whether they approve or not are not recorded about the Handbook-I've never seen all their signatures on the Handbook and without their signatures, whether it is the united voice or not is up for debate. It could have been 14/15 or 9/15. And the Handbook has a tremendous amount of room for interpretation.

I believe every person should follow God to unit with a religion where they feel God has them be. While, yes there are plenty of other religions and branches. Unfortunately, no other branch or religion believes in the OT, NT, BoM, PoGP and the D&C (granted there are potential problems with D&C). None other has Temples (yes there are problems with Temples). The core requirements for me personally in a religion are only found in the Church-even with it being so incredibly corrupt as it is today-man it sickens me.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Story time:

I walk into my YSA ward this morning and sit down. After the openings and sacrament, our stake president gets up to speak. He begins with how we all agreed to follow God's commandments to come here and a few other examples about following Christ. He then spends a few minutes talking about the temple recommend questions, specifically that you sustain Nelson and the other church leaders. Next a long testimony of how Nelson is a prophet of God who will not lead us astray. He then says he wants to focus his entire message on one statement from this last conference, "do all you can to slow the spread" and get back into our temples following LOCAL GUIDELINES. A note for this next part, I'm sitting nearly at the front in the middle of the row. He then says, "the area presidency has asked us to wear masks, I plead with you to wear your masks, it is REQUIRED to wear a mask for church attendance." I stood up, looked him in the eye, shook my head, and walked out of the building. Now some of you may think that was an inappropriate response (my mom did), but I wanted every person in that room to know that is why I walked out, and I pray to God that I was not the only one.

I will no longer be attending any LDS ward.

Now the title... I live in Idaho. Where I'm at we could have our temples open at FULL CAPACITY with NO MASKS, and we could have been doing it for months. Our mask mandate was removed and there are absolutely NO local guidelines that would prevent our churches and temples from reopening to COMPLETELY normal. It is despicable that any leader will stand up and tell us such a blatant lie, and why??? Why does he feel the need to require us to do something that is not locally mandated? He is going even beyond Nelson's guidance, it is to signal his virtue to "higher" leaders?

"Follow your local guidelines" sounds great, sure. But WHY THE HELL are we going past them? Especially when study after study shows that masks are ineffective and cause psychological and physiological harm to the wearers.

This has led me to believe there is some evil intent behind the leaders of the LDS church. Because I do not think they are this stupid, idiotic, and moronic.

I salute you my friend.

Here’s a test to know if what you did was correct: What was the war in heaven fought over? What did the Lord value in that fight? Is there any resemblance in our political sides today? Which side is the Church on? Why would the Lord change His mind now on what He values?

Feelings don't lie.

Totally false; feelings often times do lie.

I meant the Spirit. The Spirit does not lie.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Understood, and as I've said in later responses there is more to me not attending than this single instance. First, I am open to discipline when I know that I am right. I was sent home from my mission and talked to by my bishop and stk pres for refusing to wear a mask. Second, there are people in that crowd who I know have similar questions as me and know that this is wrong. If I did not stand up they may have finished listening and went home thinking everyone agreed with him, which will put them in such a scary and lonely position. I know because I was like that, especially on my mission.

I am willing to be excommunicated for following the promptings of the Spirit.

If leaders teach false and damning doctrine such as infallibility I feel it is our responsibility to oppose it. If not me today, then who and when?

I completely agree with your last sentences. I don't have a Temple Recommend, yet I'm more "righteous" now than at any other point in my life. Rage-quitting is not the solution. If they excommunicate you (or me) so be it-still keep going.

I've had many conversations with my leaders; many times the tone in how we approach things matters significantly. Humble, willing to receive whatever discipline the leaders sees fit to provide; yet also firm and unwavering in commitment to truth and right. Not anger, just firmness and resolve.

I agree!! I'm not a visually contentious person (most of the time), there has been anger in those conversations and it didn't come from me. No matter what I say, they will not agree that I'm doing the right thing if it's contrary to the q15's teachings. I'm willing to leave, they are not.

In effect, if you are a part of a religious organization then you commit to at least publicly not contradicting those who lead. You can contradict as long as it is not effectively setting yourself up to battle them. Every religion has some bounds of acceptable public teachings, it's called heresy for a reason!

I would respond that unless it is the united voice of the Q15, then I'm free to disagree publicly. I would further state, very few things have the united voice; proclamations and declarations and that's about it these days. They could come back and say "well the Church handbook is the united voice". I'd respond that I do not know that is the case; their votes about whether they approve or not are not recorded about the Handbook-I've never seen all their signatures on the Handbook and without their signatures, whether it is the united voice or not is up for debate. It could have been 14/15 or 9/15. And the Handbook has a tremendous amount of room for interpretation.

I believe every person should follow God to unit with a religion where they feel God has them be. While, yes there are plenty of other religions and branches. Unfortunately, no other branch or religion believes in the OT, NT, BoM, PoGP and the D&C (granted there are potential problems with D&C). None other has Temples (yes there are problems with Temples). The core requirements for me personally in a religion are only found in the Church-even with it being so incredibly corrupt as it is today-man it sickens me.

Yes, it sickens me. And I will be held accountable for lying to God if I agreed with them. To me, silence is as good as agreement.

If I have found something to be truth, are you saying I shouldn't share it? Because people shouldn't follow me?

They should follow the Spirit, and the Spirit has told me that it is wrong. Of course I want them to "follow me", because I think it's true... Why on earth would I say "oh yeah this is true, but I'm not gonna tell you about it or live it."